EMP does NOT effect most autos + everything else you ever wanted to know on EMPs

There were a few old/odd threads on this topic, so I thought I'd start a new one.

The Commission to Assess the Threat to the US from an EMP Attack completed a 200+ page report last year. The participants are impressive and their findings, quite a read: http://www.empcommission.org/index.php

The one thing I want to point out specifically is, according to their tests, only a few cars and trucks (10% they estimate) will stop running while 2/3 will experience nuisance malfunctions (blinking dashboard lights, etc) but will still run. Also cars/trucks with engines turned-off during the EMP experienced no problems starting, afterwards. The bigger problems associated w/ Transportation are: street lights malfunctioning causing huge traffic delays and gas pumps not working. (The auto section begins on p122.)

That's a great link. Thanks!

Interesting take. We've discussed that possibility. The body of the car can serve as a nested faraday cage making the components safe. Of course, grounding is essential in non-automotive applications. I expect this will be a good read. Thanks!!!!

I haven't read through the report yet (I will), but my understanding is a lot of what is affected by an EMP will be determined by the magnitue and location of the blast. Some studies that I sas basically said that three to four well placed, high altitude detonations would take out most electrical devices in North America. As far as cars - anything pre (don't remember the exact year) 1980 - 1985 should not be affected. Maybe this stuff is covered in the link you gave - I will take a look at it.

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Originally Posted by crashdive123

my understanding is a lot of what is affected by an EMP will be determined by the magnitue and location of the blast.

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This is true.

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Originally Posted by crashdive123

As far as cars - anything pre (don't remember the exact year) 1980 - 1985 should not be affected.

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According to the report, this (common thinking) is incorrect. It's counterintuitive: "While electronic applications have proliferated within automobiles, so too have application standards and electromagnetic interference and electromagnetic compatibility (EMI/EMC) practices. Thus, while it might be expected that increased EMP vulnerability would accompany the proliferated electronics applications, this trend, at least in part, is mitigated by the increased application of EMI/EMC practices."

(Pretty good, hedged, government-speak :-)

I will read it. I'm basing my understanding on the studies that I read regarding the nuclear weapons that the ships I was on were capable of carrying. This may be a more up to date report, taking into account many of the advances in technology.

A running car only does so when it has fuel to power it. They said gas tanks can't pump, and if gas stations are down I`m guessing super markets will be down / cash only. What about the factories that make the replacement parts? Will they be good if they are on the shelf / not in use or will all new ones need to be replaced? If they need to be replaced will the machines that are used to make them work?

I didn't read the report, but more importantly than a running car how will the power grid / system be affected by an EMP?

Would the blast burst their system and blackout the country? That seems a bit worse than a non-running car.

And if that's the case then your solar at your house does no good most likely either.

Crash, would be older vehicles thatn 1980. Basically, if it has a point type ignition (non electronic) it will be safe. Most cars probably pre 1975, boats some years later. Most mid 80's vehicles can be retrofitted with systems from earlier vehicles.

I wasn't sure of the years. Well, I've read about half way through the abstract. So far nothing has been different from what I had previously learned. I'll finish it later then on to the book.

MM - To your questions, we've experienced EMPs before. Here are some examples of EMP damage that has occurred because of solar flares:

Satellites (upset and damage)

• 1994: Anik E1 & E2 damaged (TV and data services lost to 1600 communities)
• 1998: PanAmSat's Galaxy IV satellite (disrupted pager service across USA)
• 2003: Extensive satellite upsets and damage due to a solar storm

Power grid (especially Extra High Voltage (EHV) transformers) (damage)

• 1958 & 1972 : Transformer failures at British Columbia Hydro and Power Authority

• 1989: Hydro Quebec power interrupted/damaged; Salem NJ nuclear plant transformers failed

• 2003: 14 transformers damaged in South Africa

Long communications lines (disruption and damage)

• 1859, 1882, 1909, 1921, 1926: Telegraph lines disrupted, operators shocked, fires started

• 1940 and 1958: Landline and undersea lines disrupted and/or damaged

• 1972: US and Canada’s telephone system damaged/disrupted

HF radio paths (disruption)

• 1991 upset of HF radio support Gulf War

Solar flares killed radio communications in North and South America in 2005. Same thing in 1998.

EMPs are nothing new. A device designed as an EMP weapon would be.

[QUOTE=Rick;131888]

• 1958 & 1972 : Transformer failures at British Columbia Hydro and Power Authority

• 2003: 14 transformers damaged in South Africa

Were those Decepticons, or Autobots?

Why Autobots, of course. The solar flares were caused by the evil Decepticons in their misguided bid to control All Spark, those dirty ....

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Originally Posted by Mountain Man

A running car only does so when it has fuel to power it. They said gas tanks can't pump, and if gas stations are down I`m guessing super markets will be down / cash only. What about the factories that make the replacement parts? Will they be good if they are on the shelf / not in use or will all new ones need to be replaced? If they need to be replaced will the machines that are used to make them work?

I didn't read the report, but more importantly than a running car how will the power grid / system be affected by an EMP?

Would the blast burst their system and blackout the country? That seems a bit worse than a non-running car.

And if that's the case then your solar at your house does no good most likely either.

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MM: My thinking on EMPs & Cars was all about the short term. If the EMP is an attack that takes down the whole grid nationwide and thus TSHTF, then:
- For Americans: It will likely happen during the day, when parents are at work and kids in school. I think the first instinct of most people will be reuniting w/ their families at home. A working car will enable parents to get kids and get home, which will help calm the country. Or let me put it the opposite way, if parents were stranded at work and couldn't reach spouses & kids, society would break-down much faster.
- For Members of this site: many may want to bug-out, and from what I've read, appear to need their cars to get started on their trip.
- For me personally, bug-in for a few days until road travel diminishes dramatically (lack of gas, government telling the country to stay at home) and head for Mexico (under 1 hr drive), which, I'm hoping, after a few days, the border will calm down and be open.

I have come across a 1967 Dodge Coronet with an electric fuel pump mounted in the trunk connected to 30 feet of fuel line. Easy to drop into a stations tank during power outages and pump the car full. Gotta be attended. Yes, it was the station owners car.

I can't conceive of an EMP Attack let alone one that affect the entire nation. I'm much more concerned about the tornado that happens when family is separated or the wild fire or blizzard. Those could easily happen, could occur within a short amount of time, could happen with no advance notice (depending on where you are) and could serve to keep you and your family separated.

While I agree that it is not the most prominent threat that we face, it is not beyond the realm of possibilities (I realize that nobody is saying it is). A large nuclear detonation in the atmosphere will disrupt electronics in a line of sight area from the location of the detonation. The scenarios that have three large detonations taking out much of the electrical/electronic equipment in North America assumes a fairly high altitude detonation. A less wide spread, but equally as devastating detonation could be accomplished from a device carried in an aircraft flying above 30,000 feet. It may sound like the stuff of Hollywood movie creations, but before September 11, 2001 so was flying aircraft into buildings for many. If (and it's a big if) something like that happened, while it would cause a huge disruption and panic it would be much easier to recover from. Not unlike a large regional weather event.

Wouldn't a detonation at that altitude have to be a very large weapon in order to impact the grid on a national level? I don't know, that's why I'm asking. I would also think we'd have much more to worry about in that scenario than EMP.

In my previous post, I was also thinking of a pure EMP weapon rather than a nuke. I know EMP weapons are on the board but I'm not aware of anyone outside the US that has one functional.

I'm not aware of any pure EMP weapons outside the US either. All nuclear detonations will produce an EMP. The larger the blast, the greater the affect. EMP affect is defined by line of sight, so the higher the altitude, the more widespread the coverage. The reason I postulated an aircraft carried detonation is that those countries with the technology to perform high altitude (by that I mean at least 50 miles up) are not likely to do it. Launches are easily detectable, thereby retaliation is almost assured. Kind of like the mutually assured destruction stand-off that existed with the former Soviet Union. Obtaining a nuclear device is obviously not easy, or we probably would have seen evidence of that already. That is why there is such a concern with North Korea. It's not so much IMO that they will use them against us or another nation, but that they might sell them. I believe all of the blustering and firing of short and medium range weapons that they are doing is nothing more than a sales pitch to would be buyers. So, a detonation at an altitude of five or six miles would certainly cover a large area, but would be more recoverable than a high altitude detonation (IMO) since much of the country would not be disrupted.

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Originally Posted by crashdive123

That is why there is such a concern with North Korea. It's not so much IMO that they will use them against us or another nation, but that they might sell them. I believe all of the blustering and firing of short and medium range weapons that they are doing is nothing more than a sales pitch to would be buyers. So, a detonation at an altitude of five or six miles would certainly cover a large area, but would be more recoverable than a high altitude detonation (IMO) since much of the country would not be disrupted.

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Good point. Kim Jong Il, well, he is just plain crazy. But he may be reigned in by his advisors into not launching against the US.

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Originally Posted by bulrush

Good point. Kim Jong Il, well, he is just plain crazy. But he may be reigned in by his advisors into not launching against the US.

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I'm sorry, but who reigned-in Stalin, Hitler?

We're off-topic... any more thoughts on EMPs? I agree w/ Crash on the altitude detonation... I think it would be pretty tough for a North Korea or one of their customers to get it TEOTWAWKI right.

Korea and their long range missiles don't concern me as much as them selling their short and mediium range missiles. How hard would it be to launch a short/medium range weapon (don't really need much in the way of guidance) from a freighter as it enters the waters around New York - Seattle - or any major sea port?

You could even stow one on board a shipping container and track it via GPS. When it arrives in port, detonate by remote control. Good heavens, I just scared myself. That could work.

Hi there, I thought this thread is very interesting. I wanted to ask you guys. In case of an EMP due to a perfect solar storm, what areas of the world would be less affected? I'm from Spain so I'm wondering if it could effect the whole worlds communications.

Do you guys believe this is possible to happen this year? I'll leave you with this interesting article from NASA confirming what you say:
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news...espaceweather/

Many thanks and I'll be awaiting your replies!

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Originally Posted by James Barrington

what areas of the world would be less affected?

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Why, the side opposite the sun of course. Earth just got hit with an X5 flare, the largest classification, and nothing of consequence...dang it! My power just went out.

Keep an eye on this site.

http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/

My truck is a 86 F-250, runs on hard wiring, fuses and diesel.... I think I'm good lol

I'm surprised at you guys and the population in general. If a car is grounded (thru dirt on the tires or whatever) most would be a fairly effective faraday cage. Second, Emps are subject to the inverse square law from the point of origination. A small emp at high altitude won't effect much because the induced voltage from the EMP drops off so rapidly. Get high enough to cover a large area and the size of the EMP has to go up exponentially. Nuclear explosions MIGHT do it, but only the sun has the energy to cover large areas.

On the other hand, I have the plans for a small EMP covering max 5 miles and likely nearer 3, which would likely be useful during an electronically assisted night attack . MAYBE. I lack only one part plus I have to test it, soon I hope. I found and figured it out by googling Electromagnetic pulse. Simple hey?

Allen

No reason to be surprised at us. Most that posted don't think it's a problem.

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Originally Posted by Allen Currie Author

On the other hand, I have the plans for a small EMP covering max 5 miles and likely nearer 3, which would likely be useful during an electronically assisted night attack . MAYBE. I lack only one part plus I have to test it, soon I hope. I found and figured it out by googling Electromagnetic pulse. Simple hey?

Allen

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I would love to be a fly on the wall when you test that thing. They will be chasing the person at the epicenter of that event instantly. You are going to be a very well known person around the security circles almost immidiately.

Here in the States you would instantly have the attention of the FCC, FAA, DOT, DHS, FBI and ATF. That is a whole lot of alphabet soup for one person to stir.

If it worked you would be responsible for falling airplanes, fried auto electronics. blown TV sets, melted down computers, wrist watches self distructing on peoples' arms and stopping every heart pacemaker in the affected area. I can not imagine the multiple murder charges and civil damage suits!

That is in all honesty, one bit of information and a capability I would not want to have or to allow anyone to know I had.

Oddly, the National Geographic Institute did some testing a year or so back and it took an EMP generator the size of a shipping container to stop a car engine 25 feet away. They restarted the car and drove it away. It also took them a while to find a car the device would work on. Most were unaffected.

You could always test it out in the woods, say about 240 miles from the nearest road. A place like that shouldn't draw too much attention.

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Originally Posted by crashdive123

You could always test it out in the woods, say about 240 miles from the nearest road. A place like that shouldn't draw too much attention.

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That's going to take a really long extension cord!


Do you suppose it will it run on AA batteries?

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Originally Posted by kyratshooter

That's going to take a really long extension cord!


Do you suppose it will it run on AA batteries?

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Just use a "Flux Capacitor"!

Personally, I'd use a flux pump. About 500 pumps and you'd have enough energy to EMP stuff for a whole day. Ooh. Ooh. Maybe it's one of those EMP devices you shake. I understand they only work on a Fair day, though. (get it? Fair day....Faraday) I slay myself.

Are you supposed to keep the flux pump in the fair day cage?

Why would you only use stuff in bad weather and put it in a cage on a fair day?

Did anyone notice that we had the worst solar flare receintly that we have had in decades and it did not even make a blip in the twitterized world. If it had not been all over the internet survivalist sites I would have never realized it had occurred.

My theory of an EMP event, would be mostly data and communication damage, and even at that, would take a very high magnitude event. The economy and the radical nut jobs of the world worries me much more than an EMP

While the recent flares didn't went mostly unnoticed in North America, it seems that in some places that was not the case.

http://news.discovery.com/space/sola...on-110217.html

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stori...111256/1/.html

In russia there was a some type of explosion that created a big crater sometime during the very early 1900's. There has been speculation that it was some kind of electrical experiment that tesla was conducting. If that's the case I wonder if it was EMP.

Probably one of the early batteries for Tesla Motors.:innocent:

Being on rubber tires, I thought a car wasn't grounded.
In the pre 80 something cars wouldn't an EMP still fry the condenser and possibly the coil?
I have 2 electric fuel pumps mounted on boards and wired up to plug into the cigarette lighter of my vehicles, with enough hose to get down into the gas station fuel tanks. One is for gas while the other is for diesel.

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Originally Posted by crashdive123

While the recent flares didn't went mostly unnoticed in North America, it seems that in some places that was not the case.

http://news.discovery.com/space/sola...on-110217.html

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stori...111256/1/.html

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Thing is the "difficulty" with radio signils in one area of southern China is not quite TEOTWAWKI. They are probably not even using isnsulated cables there yet! One reason the CME of the 1800s in our country was so influentual was that absolutely nothing was sheilded by insulation in any form. Thousands of miles of bare copper wire was acting as an antenna.

The Tunguska event is pretty much accepted as a meteor strike. No mystery there anymore.