Which teeny pistol should I go with?

Hey guys, I'd like you to help me make a decision. Especially those of you who are more familiar with ballistics.

I currently have a Kahr PM40 with a 3.08 inch barrel with 1:16 right hand twist. I have been very happy with the pistol, but am seriously considering selling it, so that I can get a Kahr PM45, with a 3.14 inch barrel with 1:16.38 right hand twist.

One of my big reasons for doing so, is I've heard so many on this forum speak highly of the .45ACP caliber, with .40 S&W not being as popular here.

My primary question is, considering the short length and twist rates of these barrels, which caliber do you think would be more effective in this size? I read somewhere that because .45ACP is slow to begin with, it might not be very effective in a barrel this short.

Your thoughts?

Here is some more information about these pistols:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahr_PM_series

I do not own a 40 but do own a 45-1911 A1. I believe that the performance difference between these two rounds is close enough that your primary concern should be the platform from which it is fired and not the cartridge its self. 40sw may be slightly more versatile do to a higher muzzle velocity. If you already have a 40 in a frame you like, I would keep it.

I'm with Deer Sniper on this. If you like it, keep it. If you want a 45, I would save my nickles and go with a larger platform for it. The .40 is plenty of weapon. While I have a few hand guns, most of them are not compact or sub-compact. I know that comfort is a big issue when it come to concealed carry. You have said that the department that you work in is relatively small....what do the other off-duty officers carry, or do they? I suppose the biggest determining factor is going to be how you decide to carry. Did you ever get that shoulder rig?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deer Sniper

I do not own a 40 but do own a 45-1911 A1. I believe that the performance difference between these two rounds is close enough that your primary concern should be the platform from which it is fired and not the cartridge its self. 40sw may be slightly more versatile do to a higher muzzle velocity. If you already have a 40 in a frame you like, I would keep it.

---

I agree 100% with Deer Sniper's above statement. Personally I don't like auto-loaders for personal defense. They can and will stovepipe. And I don't like leaving spent cases everywhere as empirical evidence.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deer Sniper

I do not own a 40 but do own a 45-1911 A1. I believe that the performance difference between these two rounds is close enough that your primary concern should be the platform from which it is fired and not the cartridge its self.

---

The platform between the two is nearly identical. The PM40 and PM45 have very similar dimensions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deer Sniper

40sw may be slightly more versatile do to a higher muzzle velocity.

---

That's mainly what I'm interested in. I guess I really needs some ballistic testing comparisons between the two.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crashdive123

I'm with Deer Sniper on this. If you like it, keep it. If you want a 45, I would save my nickles and go with a larger platform for it.

---

Meh. Already have a larger platform, got a Springfield XD45 Compact (not really that compact).

But I have always had a love of "mouseguns," and am continually looking for the ultimate one. Just trying to figure out if the PM45 would be superior to the PM40, inferior, or about the same.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crashdive123

The .40 is plenty of weapon.

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.40 is plenty. But might .45 be plentier? :drool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crashdive123

While I have a few hand guns, most of them are not compact or sub-compact. I know that comfort is a big issue when it come to concealed carry.

---

Oh yeah, and that is the true joy of the mousegun: Comfortable unobtrusive carry. Perfect for the front pocket.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crashdive123

You have said that the department that you work in is relatively small....what do the other off-duty officers carry, or do they?

---

Not to brag, but I can confidently say that I give off-duty carry considerably more thought that any of them do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crashdive123

I suppose the biggest determining factor is going to be how you decide to carry.

---

Pocket carry for the PM mouseguns. Definitely my favorite EDC, just trying to figure out which caliber is better on that particular platform.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crashdive123

Did you ever get that shoulder rig?

---

Oh yeah. That was actually for my Ruger GP100 (not a mousegun). I like it a lot, but it is still not unobtrusive enough for my liking. Quite recently I finally got one of those waist packs made for concealed carry, and that carries the Ruger quite handily and comfortably.

Since it's mostly a personal preference thing, then I guess that the only true way to determine the answer would be to get the 45 - shoot them side by side and then either keep or sell the one you like least. I don't think you will see a big difference in performance in nearly identical platforms. Either will be fine for close range self defense.

I'm with the other guys. I also own the PM 40 and love it. It's also going to be more easily concelable then the PM 45. I carry mine in my front pocket in a pocket holster. The 45 won't be easy to do so with.

Try these sites

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=14000

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbu...hp?t-3750.html

http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/gen...vs-45-acp.html

http://www.shadonet.com/2008/01/the-...-acp-compared/

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=278410

http://le.atk.com/pdf/SanAngeloWBW_Report.pdf

Google will give about 4 more pages of information.

FWIW and IMHO it is Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge.

In a barrel that short, have you thought of a .357sig chambering? The .357sig is supposed to emulate the .357mag in a 2.5 to 3 inch barrel and you can't get much better than that.
BTW sgtdraino did you see the BSG finale? What do you think of where Lost is going?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crashdive123

Since it's mostly a personal preference thing, then I guess that the only true way to determine the answer would be to get the 45 - shoot them side by side and then either keep or sell the one you like least.

---

I suspect the .45 will be a more comfortable shooter... but I'm more interested in performance than shooting comfort.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crashdive123

I don't think you will see a big difference in performance in nearly identical platforms. Either will be fine for close range self defense.

---

Ah, but what about longer ranges? I'm actually a pretty good shot with my PM40, even from 25 yards away. Would you predict any differences from a PM45 at comparable ranges?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chiye tanka

I'm with the other guys. I also own the PM 40 and love it. It's also going to be more easily concelable then the PM 45. I carry mine in my front pocket in a pocket holster. The 45 won't be easy to do so with.

---

Already tried a PM45 in my pocket, it fits just fine. Dimensions are so close, it even still works with my PM40 pocket holster. The grip is just a tad longer, and that's really all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SARKY

In a barrel that short, have you thought of a .357sig chambering? The .357sig is supposed to emulate the .357mag in a 2.5 to 3 inch barrel and you can't get much better than that.

---

I might consider that if Kahr ever comes out with a PM357! ;)

What about the bullets themselves? Are there any inherent advantages or disadvantages to be had with the .45 ACP versus the .40 S&W? Performance? Reloading? (I don't reload yet)

.40 is smaller but hotter, I have generally heard that .45 tends to be more controllable... but I don't have quite enough experience with the round to make that judgement myself. Would my effective range be better with .40, because .45 is so slow? Or would my effective range from such a tiny gun be more or less the same with either round?

What about longevity? Would a gun firing one round tend to have a longer lifespan than a gun firing the other?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SARKY

BTW sgtdraino did you see the BSG finale?

---

Not yet, I just now put it on my ipod. Hopefully I'll have a chance to see it sometime this eveining. Your thoughts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SARKY

What do you think of where Lost is going?

---

For me, this season has been awesome. IMO, possibly the best season since season 1. Very happy that Locke is once again walking around and eating mangoes!

As far as controlability is concerned I give the nod to the .45, more like a big push in the hand. The .40 is very snappy like a .357mag. As to down range, the .40 may be flatter shooting but at the ranges you will be using it I prefer a bigger hole.

With the mouse gun you're not going to be winning any distance accuracy competitions, so it really will boil down to personal preference. You seem to be sold on the 45. You know that you won't be happy untill you get it.:)

When asked what is the best firearm to have in a fight a crusty old sage of combat once said, "Whatever firearm you have in your hand at the time."
In these small pistol configurations I don't think much positive will be gained with the .45ACP except availability of ammo at reasonable prices.
I personally think .45 ACP is at its best in a good quality long slide model. But a standard Government model is a great gun to have in a fight.
Since you want the pocket pistol size you have to consider thier limitations. Stick with what you have if you can hit what you aim at and are comfortable with it.

I would stick with what you have. My main carry is a Kahr CW40. It has taken the place of my Officer's sized .45 (which is about the same size as the CW40) mainly because it is lighter. This is carried IWB.
For pocket carry, I have my Smith 37. Or if I need very discreet, my Kel-tec P32.

I would stick with the .40, if you like it. You already have it, and carry it. I would hate to trade it off and find out you really don't like what you traded it for (BTDT).

45 is more forgiving to reload, but 40 is not bad. Just pay attention to your powder and OAL.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crashdive123

With the mouse gun you're not going to be winning any distance accuracy competitions, so it really will boil down to personal preference.

---

I dunno, I have found the PM40 to be surprisingly accurate even 25 yards away. Maybe you guys don't really consider that to qualify as distance accuracy?

Do you think a .45 from the same size barrel could be equally accurate and effective at 25 yards, as a .40?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crashdive123

You seem to be sold on the 45. You know that you won't be happy untill you get it.:)

---

lol. You are probably right about that, I've got the fever!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aflineman

I would stick with the .40, if you like it. You already have it, and carry it. I would hate to trade it off and find out you really don't like what you traded it for (BTDT).

---

I like it, but I am always on the lookout for something better. It is a good gun, but not a perfect gun (what gun is?). Like I said, it does sometimes fail to go all the way back into battery. I think this is probably due to the snappy recoil, and me limpwristing it. You've really got to grip the hell out of these little guns! One of my hopes is that the PM45 will not have this problem, because it isn't as snappy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aflineman

45 is more forgiving to reload, but 40 is not bad. Just pay attention to your powder and OAL.

---

Now that is interesting. I don't currently reload, but someday I might like to try, so a more forgiving round is of interest to me.

Quote:

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Do you think a .45 from the same size barrel could be equally accurate and effective at 25 yards, as a .40?

---

At 25 yards? Probably.

Quote:

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You've really got to grip the hell out of these little guns! One of my hopes is that the PM45 will not have this problem, because it isn't as snappy.

---

Most mouse guns kick quite a bit...no place else for that energy to go.

All very good points above; especially about not trading the .40 for a .45, and then finding out that you don't like it. I wanted to address the "intangibles" factor in firearm selection. Your confidence, training, and experience with one handgun, or calibre, plays a big part - in my opinion - in your accuracy and in your performance. I suspect that the reason that the .45 is popular, in this forum (not just in this thread), is because of military training. Although, let me add, I believe that the .45 has a proven track record and proven performance. So, fundamentally, your confidence in your handgun/calibre of choice is paramount.

So, which choice is better? Borrow or rent the .45 and see... what is right for YOU.

The store I purchase most of my guns at warned me that the .45 Kahr has many problems. They had them in stock and told me I would be better of with a 9mm Kahr. There are allegedly design flaws in the .45 that don't affect the 9mm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crashdive123

At 25 yards? Probably. Most mouse guns kick quite a bit...no place else for that energy to go.

---

Oh yeah. But from what I have heard, I have hopes that the .45 will kick less than the .40, but be at least as effective defense-wise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wildography

All very good points above; especially about not trading the .40 for a .45, and then finding out that you don't like it. I wanted to address the "intangibles" factor in firearm selection. Your confidence, training, and experience with one handgun, or calibre, plays a big part - in my opinion - in your accuracy and in your performance.

---

I have a lot of experience with .40 S&W and 9mm, and moderate experience with other calibers, including .45. I also have a good deal of second-hand experience with the other officers in my area who must all qualify once a year with handguns in various calibers. The general concensus with just about everybody, is that people tend to be less accurate with .40 than they are with 9mm or .45. .40 is just a hotter round, and people just seem to have a harder time keeping such rounds in a tight area. .40 S&W is the round I have the most experience with (because it is our duty round), but it has never been a round I've been completely happy with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wildography

So, which choice is better? Borrow or rent the .45 and see... what is right for YOU.

---

I wish I could, but it is a pretty new gun. I don't know anyone with a PM45 that I could borrow, nor is there any place that rents them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Swamprat1958

The store I purchase most of my guns at warned me that the .45 Kahr has many problems. They had them in stock and told me I would be better of with a 9mm Kahr. There are allegedly design flaws in the .45 that don't affect the 9mm.

---

I suspect the same person would also steer you away from the PM40. The PM9 is a proven platform, mainly due to 9mm being a weaker round, and therefore easier to shoot, both on you and on the gun. But I have never had great confidence in 9mm, I consider it to be somewhat anemic, especially in the wild. It could be that the PM45 is finickier than the PM9, but I suspect it is not as finicky as the PM40.

Is there any reason why you aren't looking at any other small .45? Such as the Para Ords

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SARKY

As far as controlability is concerned I give the nod to the .45, more like a big push in the hand. The .40 is very snappy like a .357mag. As to down range, the .40 may be flatter shooting but at the ranges you will be using it I prefer a bigger hole.

---

"40 is very snappy like a 357 mag?"

Hmmm. Can't agree with this. Carried four different guns during my career, .357, .45, 9MM, and 40 cal. Like the 40 cal best and It is nothing like a .357 (which I carried for years when I first started). The 40 cal is a lot like a .45, though I like it better as it can be carried on a smaller frame with more rounds. the 40 is nice because you can shoot deer in town. Knocks them down - doesn't go through them and into someone's garage or house (if you hit them in the shoulder). Much safer in that respect. Also like the 40 cal because the gun is so light and doesn't give you hip ache. Banging off a magazine of .357 from such a light frame would be more work to controll. With the 40 cal - you don't have to think about it.

I've certainly never thought of it as "snappy." You wouldn't be thinking of the 10 MM, would you?

Wow, .40 is actually ahead in the poll now!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SARKY

Is there any reason why you aren't looking at any other small .45? Such as the Para Ords

---

I'm just not comfortable carrying "locked and cocked," especially in my pocket. I've never been a 1911 guy, always prefered more of a Glock-style of operation. I'm also favoring the PM45 over other .45 platforms because it is so very similar to the PM40, which I know is a platform that works well for me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RBB

"40 is very snappy like a 357 mag?"

Hmmm. Can't agree with this.

---

I don't know that it's as snappy as .357 Magnum, but I would definitely rate it "snappier" than 9mm or .45... especially in a small platform like the Kahr.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RBB

The 40 cal is a lot like a .45, though I like it better as it can be carried on a smaller frame with more rounds.

---

What if you had the option of carrying a .45 on a frame just as small and light, with just as many rounds? Would you still take the .40 over the .45?
Side-by-side, which round is inherently "better" in your opinion, and why?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RBB

the 40 is nice because you can shoot deer in town. Knocks them down - doesn't go through them and into someone's garage or house (if you hit them in the shoulder). Much safer in that respect.

---

Would you rate .40 at being more effective at knocking a deer down than .45?

I have a Colt Officer's Lightweight in .45ACP and it's probably bigger than what you are looking at. It's a damn fine shooter though and even at 25 yards I can generally hit what I want. I tend to like to throw a "bigger rock" on the grounds that a 220 grain slug is going to leave a bigger dent... Your milage may vary, but I am very happy with a .45ACP in a pocket sized gun.

I hear all this about stopping power and reminds me that I kept hearing a man with a butcher knife could get to you at 7 yds if you shot a 45. IMPO anyone that stands still is kinda stupid. You should learn to quickly back up keeping one foot on the ground at all times, move back and sideways and if you can shoot at all you aren't in any danger, so I was taught. Wild game should be taken by decent hunting. You don't get game down when you are detected without a perfect shot, plus it tastes better if it never hears the shot. I favor a 45 but it really gets down to what you are comfortable with and as potent.

Just a thought, but thunderwear is another concealed weapon carier. I don't know if anybody on here has heard of it, but its supposadly (sp?) a good product. http://masterofconcealment.com/image...260_shadow.gif

It is. I have one. I like it.

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