Poison for hunting

Something I've always wondered but never figured out, is if you use poison from for example a snake or a frog or something .. would that make the animal you shoot with the dart or arrow dangerous to eat? Would the poison just kill the animal (if the shot wasn't successful) or would it also make the meat uneatable?

It would make the meat inedible,which is why there are slaughter restrictions on most animal medications.

I mean you COULD eat it,but whatever you poisoned it with is going to be in the meat and you will consume that when you eat it.

Oh okay .. well, then I'll stay away from that :)

Well aren't there people all over...mostly south of the equator that have used poison darts or poison animals for ages hunting?

There have been federal cases where ranchers poisoning coyotes were convicted of killing Bald Eagles that fed on the poisoned coyotes. If you doubt what nell67 posted

You are talking about natural venoms not poisons persay? If you are talking about venoms, then it depends on the venom and wether or not you have ulcers. If you do have ulcers then it is possible to poison your self with the tainted meat.

I would think that it depends on the poison. If it is a protein, then cooking the meat should denature the protein and render it harmless.

I have heard the ulcer thing myself,and otherwise consuming the meat cooked,which the Bald eagle didnt do,will do you no harm.Years ago it was legal to bowhunt with so-called poison but is now illegal in all states Im pretty sure.It wasnt actually a poison but a medication.Anectine.It is used to stop respiration in open heart patients.

My parents were down in Ecuador several years in a row, working with the Wuaorani (sometimes known as the Auca) Indians. Some of the tribes are still very primitive. My father brought me back a blow-gun and belt, beautifully woven out of grass, with the pouches holding the darts and the fluff to wrap around the darts - to make them accurate. There was also a container that looked like it was made from a large seed pod which was used to hold curare, but my father emptied that before he came on the plane. Would have liked to see what the curare was capable of.

I were more thinking about venom, sorry, from various snakes or frogs .. like cobra, rattle snake or the mamba. I've managed to extract it, so I know I am able to do that .. but would cooking the meat then render the meat eatable?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EspenN

I were more thinking about venom, sorry, from various snakes or frogs .. like cobra, rattle snake or the mamba. I've managed to extract it, so I know I am able to do that .. but would cooking the meat then render the meat eatable?

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Good luck. If you can extract venom from those snakes I guess you could bear hunt with a switch and bite them back. I would imagine each would have it's own composition and need to be studied individually. I wouldn't try it, probably stick myself anyway. Good idea or RIP whichever is appropriate.:eek:

I've done some work on the snakes here....my experience is that venom loses its potency if exposed to air for any length of time. you'd have to carry it in vials packed in ice. you'll need a hypodermic(sp?) inject it with. the amount you can get in to an animal via a dart dipped in it would probably not kill it. apart from that..venom is complex protien...so cooking will break it down. Poisons from trees are much more stable.
just my two cents worth.
cheers
j

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ole WV Coot

Good luck. If you can extract venom from those snakes I guess you could bear hunt with a switch and bite them back. I would imagine each would have it's own composition and need to be studied individually. I wouldn't try it, probably stick myself anyway. Good idea or RIP whichever is appropriate.:eek:

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They're just snakes .. I kinda don't fear snakes + I wear protective gloves. I've been a lot around, and I guess I'd extract the poison just before I actually went hunting. (and no, I've not tried hunting bear, they're almost impossible to find here :rolleyes: ).

Jay, how long time are you talking about? Minutes, hour, days .. ?
I guess paralyzing venom or venom that attacks the nervous system would work another way, or .. ? I don't know much about it, but since I don't use guns having an effective way to hunt would be nice.

Jay, how long time are you talking about? Minutes, hour, days .. ?



15-30 minutes. IMO you're not going to kill anything with snake venom unless you carry the snake with you and throw it at an animal. even then it might just give a dry bite or not bite at all. but do a search on snakes and snake venom on google. some good articles in pdf form. Also check out poisonous plants in your area. you might be able to cook something up to tip an arrow or dart with.

Thanks! I'll try to figure something out .. if it doesn't work out I'll just practice more with a longbow or something.

I have read of natives in Surinam making poison darts from secretions from toads, and they safely eat the meat they kill. I don't know how. Actually most snake venom I am aware of must be injected in fairly large doses, which the snake is able to do, to be effective. I don't believe dipping an arrow in this venom would be effective. Bit I am not sure about this. Kachin people across the border in Burma also hunt with poisoned arrows and eat the meat. I know some stupid people in Thailand poison fish and then sell them for people to eat, and some people have died from this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chiangmaimav

I have read of natives in Surinam making poison darts from secretions from toads, and they safely eat the meat they kill. I don't know how. Actually most snake venom I am aware of must be injected in fairly large doses, which the snake is able to do, to be effective. I don't believe dipping an arrow in this venom would be effective. Bit I am not sure about this. Kachin people across the border in Burma also hunt with poisoned arrows and eat the meat. I know some stupid people in Thailand poison fish and then sell them for people to eat, and some people have died from this.

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They can use these "poison arrow" frogs, because the chemicals secreted are not necessarily venomous. The usage of the word poison has a very wide range of meaning. We generally think of a venom when the word "poisonous" is bandied about, but poison can apply to the action of plants as well.

In the case of the frogs, the chemical is better used as a stunning agent, and a hunting aide. The indigenous people use it, not to kill their prey, but it serves to relax, stun, or render it into a state where it falls from its perch in a tree if the initial arrow shot did not hit a vital point.

This is why they can eat the meat afterwards. It has toxicity, but it is not venomous. Several of the poison frog varities have been found to be very useful for medical applications.

I know that the Cherokee used to make a poison for hunting small game by boiling Poison Ivy and coating their blowgun darts with the sap. It doesn't have seemed to hurt them any, at least not that I was ever told by any of the elders.

I think the idea of eating snake venom isn't totally out to lunch. I mean, its only protein right? The only real question is whether or not the venom "lasts" when not in the snake, and whether or not an arrowhead or blowgun dart would have enough surface area to keep enough venom on it for long enough to have it injected into an animal. If you were to do this, your best bet would to get a tranquilizer gun and fill the darts with venom. Or better yet use actual tranquilizers and just dispatch it with your knife.

people drink snake venom all the time. it's not harmful if you have no ulcers in the digestive tract.

eating a small amount of snake venom contaminating meat would almost certainly be harmless.

the question of whether snake venom keeps is up for debate, as venom samples degrade quickly if not stored properly, venom for long term storage is crystalized for stability. on the other hand, i've always been warned that the teeth of roadkill rattle snakes are still seriously dangerous.

you could certainly get enough on a broadhead to kill small to medium sized game, but most snake venom takes a while to kill any medium to large sized animal.

another important consideration is that milking snakes is stressing to the snake, and can be harmful.

A few questions I'd like to ask the poster:

1.) Why would you want to poison something you want to eat?
2.) Why would you use poison opposed to a more conventional method (i.e. bow hunting or rifle hunting) which have worked well for hundreds of years?
3.) Did you consider that in your locality, an unregulated poison is probably illegal to make?
4.) Did you consider that if you could obtain a recipe and prepare a poison, that you would have to then find a more efficient or effective way to administer the poison than could be done using a conventional method of hunting?
5.) Did you consider that the poison could take hours, or days to kill your prey?
6.) Did you consider that during these hours or days, you would have to track your prey?
7.) Did you consider also, that during these hours and/or days, that the poison would be all the while destroying the organs and meat of the animal?
8.) Why would you need poison? Are you not a good shot?

I suppose if a person was a good enough marksman or archer, that they would not need to use a poison to assure a kill.

If there are any upsides to using a poison for hunting, please let me know, as I've yet to find any that would be beneficial for a person in Norway, the U.S., Canada, Europe, Western Asia or the Arctic regions.

Thanks.

All good questions. Now I have one. Who are you? If you head on over to the Introduction section, that would be a could place to let us know. Thanks.

why one would want to poison something they intend to eat is a rather subjective question.

many toxins, when entered dierctly into the bloodstream of an animal may prove fatal, while they are neutralized during digestion if eaten. to further this, many such toxins are usable in such small amounts that merely avoiding the area of the wound is sufficient to avoid any serious concentrations thereof. still further, many toxins, even while toxic when eaten are useful against small to medium sized animals in quantities that pose no risk to humans in consumption.

the use of hunting poisons, while illegal in most jurisdictions in modern times has been long prevalent in some areas as it lends a valuable edge to the hunter.

you see it in africa in situations where hunting is done by archery with low powered bows [where woods suitable for powerfull bows may be at a premium, or where smaller game comprises the bulk of the hunting], yet large game may still be taken if the animal is persued untill the poison kills the prey, or slows it's movement to allow it to be finished off. there are many other examples.

in an emergency, this could still be useful knowledge, or as with myself, in the interest of learning of the human story, the persuits, accomplishments and struggles of our people.

the statement that a good enough archer would not need poisons is a ridiculous one, i would say that the various aboriginal peoples of the world who live by such hunting are some of the best in the world. situation dictates need, and unless you are sport hunting, you may be inclined to use whatever edge you can get.

as to the statement that it might take hours to kill the prey, this is true aswell in hunting with broadheads. not every shot is a perfect kill, and if you are not prepared to track a wounded prey animal over many miles, untill you find it dead, or finish the kill, you may not be suited for ethical hunting. this is simply a real consideration of any hunting.

Don't most of the natives that use poison with blowpipes make it from frogs? I'm pretty sure most are a type of poison-dart frog, right? I'm pretty sure that the process for finalizing the poison to be effective in hunting can't be that complicated, since they are doing it with stuff they find in their natural environment.

only the ones in south and central america to my knowledge.

Another thing to keep in mind...most indigenous tribes will have built a tolerance to the poisons in the meat. It's like going to Mexico and drinking the water. When a Mexicano drinks the water they do not experience the illness that we would.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EspenN

Something I've always wondered but never figured out, is if you use poison from for example a snake or a frog or something .. would that make the animal you shoot with the dart or arrow dangerous to eat? Would the poison just kill the animal (if the shot wasn't successful) or would it also make the meat uneatable?

---

Yes that is an interesting question raising the potential issue for ruining ones game animals by using poisons to dispatch them. Well for the most part hunting with poisons could be very potentially dangerous in that it could possibly expose one to said poison(s). However expert ancient hunters knew very well what they were doing and the level of contamination they are going to get from poisoning game animals. For the most part only portions of the animal would be rendered unsafe. It is important to know the type and dose of toxin you are using. And proper handling. I have heard many old stories of accidental self poisoning. Only certain part of parts of the animal would be rendered unsafe for the most part. And those parts would be removed quickly. I know that once the poisons are administered there is a window of time that you actually want the animal to die in. And that being the sooner the better. As the circulatory system is dispersing the toxins throughout the animals body. Also and often times with the dosing an actual kill was not the goal. This practice is much safer. Instead to incapacitate the game animal so that they can be clubbed or stabbed instead. The gradual effects of poison always start with different levels of incapacitating an animal before death. Assuming a lethal properly made dose was administered correctly to an animal that hasn't developed resistance to the effects of the agents. Certainly parts of the poison are going to be present. Well unless the chemical itself is volatile and degrades quickly. Which I am sure they are quite perishable. And then it would also be possible to rinse/clean and or cook out these agents by flushing them away and or burning the substance in the meat to a certain temperature. Most certainly there was much trial and error until the hunters managed to find a method that maximized the advantages of the toxins while minimizing the disadvantages.

Just curious as to what your expertise is in this area. Your first post and are we to assume this is anecdotal, conjecture or some experience you've had? I won't mention the bit about a 10 year old thread, which might actually be a record.

There's no way to do that!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chiangmaimav

I have read of natives in Surinam making poison darts from secretions from toads, and they safely eat the meat they kill. I don't know how. Actually most snake venom I am aware of must be injected in fairly large doses, which the snake is able to do, to be effective. I don't believe dipping an arrow in this venom would be effective. Bit I am not sure about this. Kachin people across the border in Burma also hunt with poisoned arrows and eat the meat. I know some stupid people in Thailand poison fish and then sell them for people to eat, and some people have died from this.

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They'd tie the frog to a stick and roast it to a degree over a fire and spit on the frog then run their arrow heads over the frogs skin to collect the secreted toxin.

How horrible for the toad. Don't you ever do that!

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