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I'm watching right now Survivorman and he's using the fire piston in alaska, and that looks neat, but I remembered last week when he used potassium permanganate & glycerine. You mix the two together and they produce an almost instant exothermic reaction, great for fire starting.
Plus, they're multifunctional with other uses, really good for including in a survival kit. I know I'll be including them in any I make, thats the easiest fire making I've seen.
would you happen to know just where this stuff might be purchased?:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
potassium permanganate
You don't want to mess with that stuff. We inject it into the ground for remediation purposes. It's nasty and turns everything purple, including your skin. Takes awhile to wear off.
It's one of those jobs that most don't want to do.
I have used potassium permanginate and radiator coolant and the results are pretty impressive, very hot fire, but BE CAREFUL and stay clear of the fumes.
I also have mixed pp with sugar and used friction to get a fire, it is kind of like striking a match. I actually keep a vial in my survival kit of the sugar/pp mix as an alternate fire starting method.
You can get it in a bunch of different places, including Ebay and most stores that sell pond supplies. It is used as an anticeptic in Koy fish ponds.
I can second that it turns everything purple when mixed with water, I spilled some on our walkway brick and just brushed it into the cracks, but when my wife rinsed off the walk way.....boy was I in trouble. The purple just kept boiling up out of the cracks, it took almost 15 minutes of flushing to get it all out.
some of this stuff is so silly. whatever happened to using what is available in nature for your survival. you want fancy chemicals and crap, stay in your cities where they make it. want fire? a shoe lace made into a small bow drill, a rock to hold it down, a drill stick, etc. and voila. chemicals...why not just blast a rock with the stun setting on your phaser? it produces enough heat to last through the coldest winter night, and you don't have all those smoke fumes. jeez!
I'm on the fence here. I think that being able to start a fire by just adding two chemicals together is kinda cool, however if they got mixed together in, say, your pack what might happen then? I also wonder what would happen if you poured the PP onto snow to signal for help from a rescue aircraft? A Large "purple" S.O.S. on a field of white snow should show up pretty good. Whaddaya think?:confused: You can keep your fire-bow, it takes to long and in a survival situation speed is of the essence, as is conserving energy. Matches & lighter with a Flint & Steel back-up work just find and take up little space and don't weigh much. Just my "Duos Centavos".:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by smokelessfire
They're not just random chemicals, they're medicinal products part of many first aid kits.Quote:
Originally Posted by smokelessfire
So, you want your survival kit to be as light and portable as possible right? Might as well go for items with dual duty. These two items are multi-taskers.
http://www.primitiveways.com/chemical_fire.html
Plus... you can't always make a fire with other means. What if one hand is injured so you can't do a fire bow? Or there isn't good dry fuel around to catch a spark?
Personally, I'd rather survive using anything I can than be a tool-snob and die because I wanted to be as traditional as possible. Call me crazy...
Chris has a point smokelessfire. Its about being resourceful rather that be natural tools you find in nature or chemicals in your car.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
smokeless fire i understand your point.
the line gets blurred alot
1- camping
2- primitive skills
3- survival
i love to go camping allot of times i practice primitive skills ie fire starting shelter etc, when doing both i still have a tarp sleeping bag food water and a way to start a fire fast flare lighter what have you so if i fall into a freezing river and it now becomes a survival situation i will live to post it on my website or in my book..
always be prepared.
I'd never even heard of the stuff before the show, but I damn sure ain't wearing it on my body. I'm a bit on the Murphy's Law side, I don't carry ANY kind of combustables on my person (magnesium excluded).
Murphy's law is the clincher. Imagine having that stuff break open, combine, then set your pack on fire?:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fog_Harbor
Put it in a thick metal container with a lock and it wont set your pack on fire if you can get it out fast enough, or put them both in seperate containers
LOL. You actually expect us to believe you use the old bow and spindle technique???Quote:
Originally Posted by smokelessfire
Why is that so questionable? Hello this is a "survival forum". A lot of people on this site know how to use primitive methods...what did you expect :pQuote:
Originally Posted by phreak
I suspect it was contrived.
I think he probably saw it on the internet, brought them along with him under the guise that he was using them for disinfection and digestive first aid but in reality only wanted to impress the television audience.
My advice is to steer clear of this method.
Actually they do put the PP and sometimes Glyc in old or European survival kits. So you could run into these in the real world. I have seen the combination in First aid/survival kits in military surplus stores. They used to include the PP for foot fungus in First aid kits.
Now it is sometimes hard to buy because of limitations in illegal drug manufacture. Just like strike anywhere matches.
Well of course it's a show, and on his show he always tries something new out and shows how well they work out side of a controlled environment.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertRogers
If you do a search on www.froogle.com you will find a thousand places that sell those two chemicals. However, they are not as efficient pound for pound as a good magnesium flint, which will last thousands of strikes. The idea is cool, but I'm not really thrilled with the potential (no matter how remote) that I'll set my backpack on fire and burn all my goodies.
SurvivorMan found those chemicals in the dog sled he was riding.
its a basic experiment in chem class. I learned it in high school but never tried it in real life. Its cool and as long as they're not combined they're harmless. But PP is a powder in its natural state so keeping it in a metal tin works best.
also try grinding potassiumpermanganate with sugar.just make sure u only use wood to grind not metal or it will blow up.
Honestly. I love the idea but the fact that they might blow up in my back pack is kinda freeky. I used to use them all the time back when me and my friends used to go on camping trips. I used to take a turkey baster and suck some antifreeze out of my tractor before we left. It worked great!
Why does metal blow up? Is it the same reaction with glyserin?
Ages ago, PP was used both as an anti-septic and to purify water. Someone mentioned foot fungus and that was one of the uses. You could generally determine the strength of the mixture by the amount of purple color. But it had it's drawbacks. It stained clothes and skin and it could poison you if it was too strong. Today there are much better solutions to both the medicinal and water treatment problems. Most of the folks that support its use in the outdoors today do so because they sell it. I wouldn't give you much for a barrel of the stuff.
By the way, I doubt Les or Baer "find" anything anywhere. After all, it is television. On the Labrador show he "found" some hand sanitizer in a cabin and used it for fire starter. Okay on the fire starter but I laughed when he said someone left it behind. Sure, Les.
Oh yea , My favorite PP , the fumes you speak of Is pure OXYGEN , thats why it burns so hot as long as you use glycerine fumes are harmless, saw the same show the reaction takes 90 seconds at 80 degrees , much longer at 0 degrees (have timed the reaction at 50 Degrees and its about 12 min, or more
Have another perm. injection coming up next week. Oh yeh, what fun. Nastiest stuff you ever want to deal with. Your rags start getting hot and smoking, it stains ya and takes forever to get off, and to top it off, super boring job.
Wouldn't it be prudent to include anthing that works? I would bet that any of us would not be concerned about being politically correct, historically ethical, nor ecologically friendly if we were in a survival situation. I would even cut down a living tree to make a shelter if I had to.
My only point, Woodwose, was that there are so many alternatives that are better. You have to draw the line somewhere on what you will and will not take with you. Not everything that was used in the past is good stuff. I remember the coal oil and sugar my mom gave us for the croup. Trust me, that has NEVER been used in family again. If I had to, you bet I'd hack and cut, plunder and trash. No tree huggin' when my family is at stake. Just better ways to treat water, make fire, and stop foot rot for me.
If you decide to carry some perm. in your pack, make sure it is in an unbreakable container. Keep it away from paper, cotton, wood, and a host of other substances as it is a regulated substance.
It would be smart to check the msds sheet prior to using as it can ruin your day if used wrong. If it breaks in your pack, chances are it will start smoking as that's what it does. I've had rags get very hot and smoke to the point of having to soak compl. in water. It has to be soaked as if ya just sprinkle water on it, makes it worse.
Perm. is another example of watching too much tv. Yes, it can start a fire, but the chances you take carrying it and using it, to me it's just not worth it.
But then what do I know, I just inject it into the ground.
Lighter works just as well, also matches. Back-up is flint and steel. Wanna take along every conceivable thing for starting a fire?:confused: Then go from there. Gonna need a Mack semi to haul all this crap. I saw Bear Grylls drink his own pee direct from his bladder but will be hob-tied if I'll do it!:eek: But it is another source of water, right?
Yeah.. I agree with all of that. I was just trying to say that if it is available use it. In some places, suspicion would be raised if you were known to be carrying Perm. permang. and other chemicals. So, that isn't a first choice with me.. If I were in a place and a disaster happened or something other that put me suddenly in a survival sit. then I would be looking around for anything that worked. :D
im a man of a little bit of all those methods. honestly, i rather know for whatever crazy reason the many methods of starting a fire. i agree, some methods i rather use first than others, but depending on your situation and what you happen to have, i rather know all the 'possible' ways to survive.
honestly, the odds that you need to use some of these methods are nill, but no one ever expects to be in these situations, but if and when it does happen, good to know.
if you didnt have pp and whatever, matches, lighter, flint, mag, or lightning?!?! haha... ok, no joking, the natural methods such as bow, rubbing sticks, friction, rocks, ect..... are nice to know, just painful sometimes to get it going. true, if our injured, you never know what you have or need. in the news alone in the last few months, there have been people who flew off revines in their cars, not found for days, or a simple hike that you get lost in and only brought a camelback for whatever reason, or you got diarrhea or foot fungus, i still dont mind knowing the craziest of methods:) ive even taken the empty film canister with soaked petroleum and cotton before.
heck, ive even saved dryer lint in a ziplock (thats stuff really dry, fine, and burns right away!!!!)
heres a good one, some of the problems with starting fires is damp wood or cant keep the starter flame lasting long enough. if you keep a tea candle (those little tin white candles), if you can get the wick going, the candle will burn slow and a long time under some wet wood and get it dry enough for combustion.
theres a lot of methods, keep bringing in all the ideas everybody:O)
james
there has been one tool that i found interesting i saw survivorman use in alaska. its reusable indefinintely pretty much. its the piston starter. put some small tinder in and simple physics of popping it (the quicker you build pressure in a pressure vessel, the temperature will rise). i think ill buy one some day to play with.
ive still never done the hot rocks from the fire to burry in the dirt and maybe throw a bag on. i hear to be careful, they could be so hot and not buried deep enough that its unbearable.
gotta remember to try that one day :O)
one that i like to do during the winter is boil some water, throw it a water bottle, put it in the sleeping bag, and when im ready to hit the sack, i got a bottle warmer to cuddle if the lil' lady is not around :)
Hey there 4spacecowboy. How about lighting your way on over to the introduction section and tell us a bit about yourself. Thanks.
sure why not:)
heres a short or introduction of sorts of who i am:
http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...9889#post69889
How about this for a crazy, wild, off-the-wall idea...MATCHES! Waterproofed & in a watertight container even! Boy Scouts get along fine with just those. True, you might just be a stereo-typical Dumb-Butt & forget to bring matches; but then, if that's who you are the odds are even greater that you're not going to be able to remember anything else; let alone two chemical compounds that might burn your tent down. The candle bit has been around forever & I've been waiting for somebody to finally mention it! (Maybe someone already did?) BTW, I also bag dryer-lint, but do you drink out of a wide-mouth Nalgene Bottle...that's the question!:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by 4spacecowboy
well... i guess i gotta work myself up to something that big in my.. (anyway) haha. no, i have fancy camelback and a couple of specialized bottles one for filtering from REI (nalgene) and other just a insulated fluid bottle. but what i have notice is that the wide mouth bottle has started to become a standard opening for many other applications (filters, strainers, special lid with LED for a nalgene water lamp, special handle, etc). so.... i might start thinking about one, but havnt yet. i kind of avoided them for no apparent reason but everyone else had it.
but... theres always something to be said for compatibility with other parts, for instance the jet boil stove uses custom canisters, you cant use the typical others, even though its a greattttttttt stove.
kind of like your, SHTF kit, might want a dependable firearm (hunting or whatever) with a common size ammo if you were to run into a shop with certain ammo. meh..thats another topic i wont get into:)
yeah, i always have a basics all encompassing survival package in my packs. it includes:
compass
mag
storm whistle (loudest ever)
lighter
yes.... those waterproof matches of course
dryer lint
one tea light candle
(i just realized i had a few forms of fire starting, interesting..... well fire is essential haha)
continuing...
waterproof pad
space pen
quality space blanket/sack with emergency color barrier and some hints if your feeling stupid for the moment ( you could be severely dehydrated, low blood sugar, head trauma, anyone can get dumb)
little tube of fish hooks and stuff
extra batteries
purif tabs
i think thats all in that particular waterproof zip bag, but i always usually also carry all the time even just a small hike:
gerber multitool
quality size knife (cumulus with serration)
led head lamp
water filter
extra one pair of socks, pants, shirt,
softshell jacet
fingerless gloves
camelback
waterproof map
descent first aid kit (mine tends to be a little more than most, being an licensded EMT and all....)
oh and good light weight high carb energy food and drinks (powders, gels, bars, beef jerky, trail mix, and usually one really tasty heavy meal ill love after a long day). ive gotten creative with different types of excellent foods for the woods camping with other worldly people.
thats all i can remember off the top of my head:)
oh.... and a good hat from the heat (i usually bring my sweat wickening under armour cap, works great). depending on the season, sometimes a quality beanie too (skull cap).
But your not a "real man" if you don't drink out of a wide-mouth, polycabonate, (hard plastic) Nalgene bottle!:rolleyes: