ok people this is it...my thread on what i think about our nations state of affairs.

first off, to those people who seem to think we've lost any war(s). it must be assumed that you are talking about the vietnam war. we didn't lose that one. we got pulled out because the chicken****e (pardon the language:o) politcians got cold feet and all the peacenik freaknik hippie pacifist(spelling:confused:) types refused to get behind the troops the way they should have. secondly, i'm damn proud to be an American and i think we should all be. this IS the greatest nation in the history of the world and anybody who doubts it should sit down and think about it. what other nation in history has contributed what ours has not only to its own citizens but also to the citizen's of other nations. what other nation in history has come running with both barrels any time we've been asked to help and even a couple times when we weren't. and imo that we always try to leave that nation better than we found it. so yes i think i have a right to be damn proud to be an American and i wouldn't live anywhere else. no other place has the kind of freedom we do. but darker times could be ahead. i fear that certain groups may have figured out how to use our constitutional rights against us. particularly the freedom of religion that so many of us take for granted. now i'm not in any way saying that we should in any way give up that god given freedom. but i'm a little afraid that if certain parties come into power that they may find some way through legislation to pave the way for sharia law to come into effect:eek: now i know that's the last thing any of us here wants but europe seems awful close to letting that happen now. i mean look at how many european nations pulled out of iraq and afganistan because of terrorist threats. how easy would it be for those same countries to come under sharia law if they so easily cave to terrorists. i for one think that military service should be mandatory for every citizen in this country at least for a certain number of years before you can be eligible for certain things such as running for any political office in congress. and i think no politician in congress should be able to run for more than two consecutive terms. that way we can get rid of the dirtbags like ted kennedy and hilary clinton and thier ilk. our whole sytem obviously needs an overhaul from the ground up. and we need to close our borders. i think i've made this long enough so i'll just sit back and see what everybody thinks. :cool:

I think posting on politics is against the rules.;) And you dropped one tire into that rut.

Umm, yeah..that was quite a rant, but I kind of nodded off in the middle, someone tell me how it ended?

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Originally Posted by trax

Umm, yeah..that was quite a rant, but I kind of nodded off in the middle, someone tell me how it ended?

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"And they all lived happily ever after......"

All i can hear is the theme tune to the magic roundabout? - Is anyone else getting that?

The theme of O'Fortuna was playing in my head as read... Trax! Hey Trax! Wake up...
(Best Earl Pitts voice) Wake Up America!

I don't think that some Americans really dislike America. I think it's more an expression of their frustration with hearing about food recalls (FDA not doing its job), corrupt politicians, corrupt executives stealing peoples' pensions (see Worldcom, and others), bratty neighbor kids, rude neighbors, local kids shooting babies (via stray bullets), drugs, poverty, FEMA mismanaging the Katrina thing, formaldehyde in FEMA housing, job loss, mortgage crisis, high gas prices, etc.

Ok, the mortage crisis wasn't forced on anyone. It was morally questionable what the lenders allowed, but it was not forced on anyone. No bank forced a person to get a mortgage they couldn't afford. That was the house owner's fault, pure and simple. If you don't completely understand the mortgage, then don't get one. Don't come crying to me, or the gov't, when your ARM goes up in a year and you lose your house. Learn to manage your own money and wipe your own @$$.

I've been to Mexico and Belize and we never had any problems there, except in Belize they also use the "dollar" and most vendors will shortchange you if you give them US dollars. Nice places to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.

1stcav - I think you've got it in four wheel drive as far as the political arena, so I'll stay away from that. One observation though - you said that we should all be proud to be Americans. I certainly am, as are others. You've also got to remember on this thingy called the internet, not everybody here lives in the same country as you. They're probably just as proud of their countries. Just an observation.

Looking at your profile if true you ain't old enough to know squat about Viet Nam, the country's radical nuts or any part of the late 1950s to 1973 and beyond. I have a personal interest in those years and we were in Viet Nam long before it was public knowledge. Lots of things went South in a dozen years and ain't improved much since.
We have Americans that hate this country and only political pull got you in the Guard back then. The Marines had a draft(choice of draftees), millionaire politicians & actors made speeches in DC made me puke and one even ran for president. Things are better
now, I was proud to be an American when it wasn't popular and I ain't changed. I guess I am too stupid to change.

If you think we left every country better than we found it, take a look at Afghanistan. True, it would have been worse to let the Ruskies take it over, but after we got done pumping money into the country in the form of arms to stop the slaughter of women and children (read: fight our enemy from the cold war clandestinely) we simply dropped them to let them rebuild on their own. Watch Charlie Wilson's war. It may help you understand how we handle a lot of our conflicts overseas.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bulrush

corrupt executives stealing peoples' pensions (see Worldcom, and others)

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Close maybe, but not quite. I think your reference here is probably to their stock portfolios being worthless. If that's the case, that's their own fault for not diversifying their portfolio and only investing in one stock. That's the chance you take when you do that. Your comment about mortgages applies here as well. If you don't understand the market, stay out of it.

If your comment is truly toward pensions then at least some portion of it (if not all) would be protected by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Coot

The Marines had a draft(choice of draftees)

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I forgot about that. And when volunteers were short it was:

"Count off by fours. All fours, you just volunteered for the Marines."

Yes, indeed. Interesting times.

Still I think when a you turn 18 you should have to do a mandatory 2 years in the military, builds character, team work, leadership, and responsability... no exceptions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rick

Close maybe, but not quite. I think your reference here is probably to their stock portfolios being worthless. If that's the case, that's their own fault for not diversifying their portfolio and only investing in one stock. That's the chance you take when you do that. Your comment about mortgages applies here as well. If you don't understand the market, stay out of it.

If your comment is truly toward pensions then at least some portion of it (if not all) would be protected by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation.

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You are right Rick. Many lifers at Worldcom and others had only one stock in their retirement portfolio (IRA or 401k) when things went bad: Worldcom. That's just a disaster waiting to happen and those people share the responsibility.

I did not know the US had a Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. I thought all pensions were privately maintained by the corporation that created them. So if a company went under, so did your pension. I thought a pension, like Social Security, was not a guarentee, but a benefit that may or may not be there by the time you need it.

Bulrush - In theory, that's what they do. I don't know anyone that has put it to the test so I can't tell you they will pay off or pay at 100%. It's established by law so I would hope it works like it's supposed to. Anyone have any experience with them?

http://www.pbgc.gov/

Rick: You can ban me for life and delete the following but think it no more political or controversial than what has already been stated in this thread.

Quote:

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Still I think when a you turn 18 you should have to do a mandatory 2 years in the military, builds character, team work, leadership, and responsability... no exceptions.

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But it should then be expanded to both sexes and all ages...no exceptions.
All those great benefits should not be deprived of those who don’t meet that discriminatory age limit.

Have a good job-too bad
have children- too bad
Going to college/trade school- not now buddy
Independently wealthy- don’t care
Live in a nursing home- Hey were going to get you some fresh air grandma

You’ll earn a great army salary, be physically fit and learn “Character” at the point of a gun.

There are some good examples in history when a society attempted mandated character through conscription and it hasn’t worked out as anticipated.

When ever I see mandated public service brought up it is always contrived in a way where the presenter is excluded. The most common method is Age. The other is Gender. Then comes Wealth, Education and Connections.

I could never support such a program and an easy way to defeat one is as I stated. Included the people who support such a program within it and the enthusiasm quickly evaporates.

Nothing personal Beo it is not you I am ranting against its the concept of mandated conscription for moral massaging.

Dan - that was such a bad post I'm going to make you stay ON the forum for life. Now you wish you hadn't posted it don't you?

By the way, I'm against mandatory service as well. Folks view connections as a bad thing. My brother was a computer programmer in '67 with about three years experience under his belt. For those that remember, programmers were about as scarce as hen's teeth and the printers alone were larger than a car (remember the IBM System/360 Model 95?) Anywho, he was 26, married, one kid on the way and the Tet roles around in '68. Drafted! Polk to Sil for artillery training. Artillery? He's a programmer for cryin' out loud. Dad had gone to school with our state representative who happened to be head of the Ways and Means Committee so a phone call or two later my brother is heading to Germany and a programming center. Connections do, on occassion, make some sense. The army however, doesn't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bulrush

I don't think that some Americans really dislike America. I think it's more an expression of their frustration with hearing about food recalls (FDA not doing its job), corrupt politicians, corrupt executives stealing peoples' pensions (see Worldcom, and others), bratty neighbor kids, rude neighbors, local kids shooting babies (via stray bullets), drugs, poverty, FEMA mismanaging the Katrina thing, formaldehyde in FEMA housing, job loss, mortgage crisis, high gas prices, etc.

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mostly what he said, the FDA and formaldehyde cant be helped. and i agree we need to close the borders and take better care of our own first. I know a few that would have benefited from a few weeks in boot camp..heck half the people i work with needed to be in the military and the other half wish we still were.
I also agree that the politics need revamped and have for at least the last twenty years . i dont belive things are going to get much better at least not for long, it may level off but it will be to little too late.
the world revolves on money to be made and no corporation is going to take a chance to not make as much as possible.

with respect to all who have posted

Beo - gotta disagree with you on this one. Having made a career serving in the military, I do agree that it builds character, team work, leadership, and responsability qualities. I remember very distinctly many of the "draftees" that were in the Navy. They had a low lottery number, knew they were going to get drafted, so joined the Navy to avoid direct combat. (Didn't work by the way, as many say action on River Patrol Boats). By and large most of them were very professional and did their job. Some got out after their first enlistment, while others stayed. Still others were disgruntled about being where they were, and made life miserable for many. I know there are stats out there on draft dodgers. I wonder if there are any on the numbers of people that did harm to themselves to avoid service? In my experience I much preferred serving in an all volunteer service.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beowulf65

Still I think when a you turn 18 you should have to do a mandatory 2 years in the military, builds character, team work, leadership, and responsability... no exceptions.

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Equality went bye bye with the draft and no way is daddy's little girl gonna get drafted in this country. Remember somebody has to stay home and bake the apple pies. We can't be like Israel because it just ain't nice to close borders, and Heaven forbid we "profile". I mean just because a guy has a beard, towel around his head, AK on his arm and C-4 coming out of his pockets we wanna be politically correct and frisk granny, we DON'T profile. Agree or not I think we would have a nationwide riot if the draft was brought back. When I was in high school it was kinda taken for granted if you didn't go to college you got drafted. Different generation and we are just a couple of old f@rts who are way behind the times.

Additional thoughts on mandatory military service.

I understand some would think that conscripted service would help those with low character/morals. Maybe your right about some "kids" but I doubt it would have much impact on the masses of inner city youth.

First look at how the military affects the change and what is required on behalf of the individual. Fear, shame, sense of duty, community(unit), physical depravation, etc.,etc.. Those who were in know.

This works on a volunteer military and for past generations doubt it will have much impact on the gang bangers roaming our urban streets. This person has faced fear, death, hunger, depravation...on a daily basis...and isn’t this a large part of the target audience. How are you going to affect a change in the gang-banger who is making fist full of money dealing, while dodging bullets, seeing his “friends” killed in the streets, etc., etc,. He already has his sense of belonging and self value. Take a look at all the gang sign painted all over Iraq. Doesn’t look like the military broke them of their sense of place and loyalty to their local gang. They do their tour then are out on the streets, only now with tactical skills…frightening. The Chicago PD is just getting a whiff of it now and they just don’t know how to deal with it. They have never had to face a gang who laid down fields of fire, maneuvered, and attacked under suppressing fire etc, etc. No wonder PD’s are looking for more fire power and training.

I'm pretty sure I don't want these individuals to have any more ability to reek havoc.

Anyway will the military now take violent felons(many have extensive rap sheets) as due course or would you put them in a special army.
Maybe we could call it the fodder corp....LOL.

doesn't apply to the guys i work with they're just lazy, want everything brought to them and thinks the world owes them something. i know military life and or training isn't for every one but still a good many would get something useful from it.
besides those in prison would make much better soldiers.:D

@dan ....load the boat guys you're citizenship has just been revoked:eek:

Personally, as soon as I hear of anything being made mandatory by a government (driver's license?! I don't need no stinkin' driver's license!) I start to get a little bit itchy feet (time to travel)

ok maybe i'm not old enough to know about vietnam from personal experience but i can read pretty dang well and from everything i've read, watched and heard about vietnam that aint losing. saigon fell two years after we left. as far as the mandatory military service i didn't say anything about a draft. i meant that we should take these young(er) kids that are just starting to get out into the world and stick them into some kind of military service for maybe two or three years teach'em a sense of pride, responsibility, and belonging to something bigger than a neighborhood gang and then stand back and see what that generation can do. make it the only way they can legally have some rights like maybe the right to vote or something similar and i still think it should be mandatory before someone can get into high level politics. idk maybe i'm just talking out my @$$. i am ranting a little. i just think somethings need to change at the bottom and maybe this is the way to do it. i think that if some of these politicians were in the military they would come a lot closer to funding our military they should be funded and i'll bet dollars to doughnuts the va system would get fixed. just my two bits.

Two years after we left? You might want to brush up on your reading a bit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Saigon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1stcavmp77

idk maybe i'm just talking out my @$$. i am ranting a little. i just think somethings need to change at the bottom and maybe this is the way to do it.

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just mho, but I think you're starting at the wrong end. This country's decisions are made top down, so why start where the **** *STOPS* rolling?

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