Am I being too cynical about this youth leadership retreat?

There is a non-profit camp for kids nearby us.

I went to pick up a friend of my son's the other day who was attending this camp.

They call it a "leadership retreat." It is free for the kids to attend and the kids get free room and board. "Room" is a lean-to. I hear the food is outstanding.

Here is what bothers me a bit: The leadership activities for the kids consists mostly of pulling weeds, mulching, stacking rocks and other mostly landscaping activities.

The skeptic in me is thinking: Sheesh, this is more of a labor camp. Great way to improve your property for practically nothing.

I guess I'd be less bothered by it except for a few things: 1) If there were more variety of learning activities for the kids besides landscaping and property improvement (such as basic wilderness skills); 2) the folks who own it / run it are really high pressure to get kids to attend; 3) just a gut feeling I have about it.

Am I being way to cynical do you think?

SideNote:
I would think about running a real wilderness survival camp for kids but I bet the liability is way high! We have a "granny clampett" style cabin in the woods that would make a great base camp. Lessons in hiking / navigation, plant identification, tracking, wild edibles, shooting, archery. Could be a great 1-week or even two week camp.

A little "get your hands dirty" type work for youngsters could be a good thing. I would want to know more about the whole "program" before I gave more of an opinion.

As well, speaking of liability, in this day and age anyone that does anything with kids better do their homework. With the sue happy parents out there over everything, I would imagine there's a great deal of liability in some way. I've seen many a good intention turned sour these days.

That is the cynical part in me.

TEOTWAWKI - How old are the kids? (Like the new avator - bugs rocks)

They are teens... and mostly city dwelling teens - I think therein lies the appeal and value.

I think maybe I am being too cynical and just don't see the appeal because we live it every day.

The place is on a mountain across the county from us. Exact same environment that we have at home.

I agree that some get your hands dirty type of work is good for anyone - especially kids.

It is not a camp for troubled kids or anything like that...

Most of what I've seen for kids that age involved exercises in overcoming obstacles and team building exercises. It really doesn't sound like the title of the retreat matches the activities.

Cub scouts and boy scouts do community service projects that are supposed to teach the boys (and some parents) to enjoy physical work while working as a team. it also builds self esteem because the boys can say I/we did that. It could be something along those lines but i would need to know the rest of the curriculum.

Ya know - I'm pretty sure the outdoor curriculum is landscaping. That is all I've ever heard of and when the guy (owner) was trying to convince me to send my kid that is all he talked about.

Well, with what you've provided, I think this "leadership retreat" would be a waste of time.

on that note. i would have to agree. got nothing against hard labor but there should be lesssons learned or a paycheck at the end of the week and with the scouts rule #1 is to have fun.

Teotwawki - If I have learned nothing in this life it is to trust your gut feelings. They are more real, more honest and seldom let you down. When it comes to feeling, my gut overrules my heart and my head every time.

No comment on the camp. I'd have to see it and/or spend some time there so I can understand their philosophy. By the way, you might ask the owners what it is they are trying to accomplish.

I've put together leadership training camps and wilderness skills camps for teens. From what you've described (like Rick said, I haven't actually seen it) that one sounds like it sucks. I always incorporate plenty of hard work for the participants. I also incorporate a clear line whereby they can see the benefits, to themselves individually and to their teams, of the work they do. I've had young people approach me and ask me when the next one will be based on what their friends who have been through the course told them.

Rick - gut feelings - yep!

It has taken me a long time to trust 'em. But I'm better now and continue to improve with age.

I can look back on many things that would have turned out better had I gone with my gut feeling.

Humans too have instinct I guess.

The older I get, the more I trust my gut feelings. As a younger guy, I got burned almost everytime I disregarded my "gut" for lack of clear evidence.

Now, when I have a strong feeling about something that I just can't prove yet, and people tell me I don't know for sure, I just tell them, "Yep, you're right. But the older I get, the more I trust my gut feelings. Ain't failed me yet."

Just my theory. It goes back to those age old efferent cues. We pick up on them and get this "hunch" about things when in fact we're just reading the signs in front of us.

I don't know how many times I've thought my way into a problem that my gut told me was there all along.

When Wing and I were younger, we did a lot of work with kids - guiding Canadian wilderness canoe trips. Parameters were obvious (gotta get to the take out point) hardware was simple (canoes, paddles, packs, kettles, tents), and necessity for team work - paramount. For some of the kids - getting a 75 pound canoe and heavy packs across a mile (or longer) portage - was probably the hardest physical labor they'd done in their life to that time.

It was a shock to the system for some kids ( some of the girls would bring curlers and blow dryers [?]). It necessitated going through the packs before hand and throwing out the non-essentials (a large mound by the time we left). Some of the kids were totally in shock to find out they would be allowed one change of underwear for a week or ten days.

It was a great time for us, and even today I'm approached on the street by former trippers who thank me for the experience.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RBB

Some of the kids were totally in shock to find out they would be allowed one change of underwear for a week or ten days.

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:eek::eek::eek: Neanderthal!!!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek:

RBB - I'll bet it was a rewarding experience for the student and the teacher.

TEOTWAWKI about doing your own camp/retreat with kids, I'd recommend finding an organization to host it like the YMCA or 4-H. I have done primitive skills camps, canoe trips, and dogsled days for local kids groups with "sponsoring" organizations hosting it, and that works real well. That way you can use their liability insurance for the outing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RBB

Some of the kids were totally in shock to find out they would be allowed one change of underwear for a week or ten days.

---

A friend of mine since child hood had a great way to deal with this...

He would practically spend the summers at my house... One time I noticed he did not bring a change of clothes. I asked him if his underwear didn't get really gross.

He said: No problem. I wear 'em right side in for a few days until a skid mark shows up. Then I turn 'em right side out and go for a few days until a skid mark shows up.

I say: Then what?

He says: Then I talk you into going down and playing in the creek.

I say: But what if we don't go?

He says: Then I just take 'em off, hide 'em under a couch cushion and go hippie.

---
The idea of running a wilderness / leadership camp for kids. I would love to do that but I have so many irons in the fire already.

Jason - You might want to talk to an attorney about the liability issue if you haven't already. I would still think you have some uncovered liability if you are involved in the event and don't have some form of insurance. Folks tend to sue everyone involved. I'd hate to see someone end up with your home because you didn't have coverage.

You might be able to take it out for the event only and not have to carry year 'round. That should reduce the cost.

These days I have full liability insurance. I operate on both State lands and National Forests, so I have to have a million dollar per occurance/aggreagate coverage policy just to get the government land use permits. Fortuantly there is a national organization of recreation outfitters that I belong to, so we essentially insure ourselves as a group, and the costs aren't prohibitive. Policies are set by the amount of business you do, and the amount of coverage days.

you could always join the BSA we could always use the help

http://www.scouting.org/

Dragonjimm - several on here work with the scouts. A great organization IMO.

Two sons. Both Eagles. Proud Dad I am. :D

Teotwawki - have you found out anything more about the "retreat"?

Hey Crash - no - I've written it off. Going with my gut feeling on it and don't intend to give it any more thought. Got plenty of yard work to do at home if my boy needs some "leadership training."

Off topic sidenote: Sitting in a hotel in VA, visited Manassas National Battle Ground yesterday (Bull Run) where Stonewall Jackson earned his nickname. Doesn't compare to Gettysburg but worth the visit. Will be dropping the boy off at a college near DC this afternoon. He is in a week long Strategic Intelligence Camp (spy camp). Next week Arlington, other D.C. sites and then a few days to explore Williamsburg, Jamestown and York Town.

If you haven't been to DC before then you have to see the Lincoln Memorial. Walk the steps and stop inside. I think you'll be duly impresses at the stone work. It blew my mind.

i wondered how many scouts or scout parents were roaming around.:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Teotwawki

Hey Crash - no - I've written it off. Going with my gut feeling on it and don't intend to give it any more thought. Got plenty of yard work to do at home if my boy needs some "leadership training."

Off topic sidenote: Sitting in a hotel in VA, visited Manassas National Battle Ground yesterday (Bull Run) where Stonewall Jackson earned his nickname. Doesn't compare to Gettysburg but worth the visit. Will be dropping the boy off at a college near DC this afternoon. He is in a week long Strategic Intelligence Camp (spy camp). Next week Arlington, other D.C. sites and then a few days to explore Williamsburg, Jamestown and York Town.

---

My brother lives in DC (well Maryland now). I used to visit alot when I was stationed in Virginia. The richness and history in some of the memorials and sites is truely amazing. Mt Vernon is on top of my list along with the National Archives (where my brother works). I think I could spend two weeks in the Smithsonian (air & space my favorite)

National Archives: My boy is a history / genealogy buff and is scheduled to do some research at the National Archives... He has requested service records for ancestors he has found who fought in the civil and revolutionary wars.

We vacationed in DC last year too but did not see all that we wanted...

I think our favorite spot is the Library of Congress.

Perhaps a sad commentary on our society / culture / times: There was a school group there and a couple of kids were sitting against the wall playing on their gameboys. Here they are at what is probably the greatest repository of human knowledge on earth and these kids found Mario more interesting.

You can't put an old man's head on a young man's shoulders. Can't be done much to my father's chagrin I'm sure.

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