Printable View
I was wondering if anyone has used 300 Blackout on their AR platform. From what I understand only a barrel change is required. If you've shot it what was/is your impression of the round? It seems to be right in there with the 7.62X39 for performance but with the accuracy of the AR.
Just started hearing about them last year or so....and have seen some Handi Rifles chambered in this round. (On my Maybe list)
Seems it's a subsonic to supersonic depending on bullet.... rounds are based on a .223 case blown out to .308.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/300_AAC....62%C3%9735mm)
Looks like you are correct in the barrel change only ........
Rick, the 300BO is a good round, no doubt... but expensive to get there, and expensive to feed... Maybe an AR in 308 would be the best route IMHO. That or just run an AK and be aware of the cartridge's limitations.
Im poor, so the AK route is what I took... If money were no object I would likely go AR in 308.
FWIW, but... Im sure you already have thrown the above ideas around. I only mention so you can (re)reflect on the points.
EB
I have the 7.62X54 and really like the round. I've always wanted the 7.62X39 but didn't really want to go the route of the AK. It just seems the 7.62X35 blends a tough round with the accuracy of the AR Platform. Kind of a win/win and if all you have to do is change the barrel then cost to convert my AR is pretty small.
Rick I think people just don't treat the AK the same way they do the AR, as in settling down and really shooting it for accuracy.
I put a scope on mine, a Tapco G2 trigger for $35 and it shoots milsurp ammo into an inch and a half @ 100. My AK is more accurate than my SKS. It is as accurate as my 30-30 rifles at 100 yards and is better than they are at 200 yards. I can consistently ring the 12" gong on our club range at 350 yards. That might not win at Camp Perry matches but it is "good enough" for general work.
I can buy complete AK rounds for the cost of .30 caliber slugs for reloading the Blackout with none of the hassles of reloading.
And the Blackout still does not give the performance of the 7.62x39. All the specs I have seen put it just between the .30 carbine and the AK round.
On top of that AK rifles are settling down to a realistic price right now. You can get an AK for less than $500, which is going to be about the price of your blackout upper unit.
For me, the AK is sort of like the AR platform. There are sooooo many varieties out there. It seems like everyone and his kid sister makes them and there are everything from full American versions to imported half breeds gussied up or down to appease ATF. How does a guy know what a good AK is anymore? Century seems to be putting out a lot of them.
CAI had in the past, from what I read, sold a lot of junk... The AKs thats coming from them now seam to be good to go. Case in point, the daughter and I both have WASRs and they run like a raped ape, no problems with accuracy and take any mag made, plus the price is right.
I skipped IO and Saiga and with with a WASR based on a friend/gun dealer's suggestion... Glad I did.
I chose WASR over Yugo for the chrome lined barrel.
In the end, for an affordable AK, either WASR or Yugo. Aresonel would be nice but the price is quite high.
Avoid IO like the plague.
I would steer clear of the VZ, which is NOT an AK... there is no real advantage IMHO and they take only VZ mags.
This is of course, if you are leaning toward AK.
EB
Sorry, but reading that post is like trying to figure out texting slang. For those of us not as familiar with makes and brands could you translate please?
I do not personally own a .300 BLK, but a buddy of mine does and I've shot it quite a bit. He uses it for hunting our small framed Sitka Blacktail deer, for which it seems to work fine. I would say, if you already own an AR, then a .300 BLK would be worth looking at, if not, then its an expensive way to get into the AR world. The .300 BLK was designed for subsonic suppressor use, so any benefits from using supersonic ammo would be pretty much nil over a more established round like the 7.63x39. Too, unless you roll your own ammo, .300 is going to be pricey. If you really want an AR for multi-use purposes in a caliber greater than .223, I would peek at the 6.8 SPC, still expensive ammo, but a much more efficient cartridge in my opinion. Otherwise, get an AK!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElevenBravo
OK here goes. The alphabet soup is equal to us talking about Springfield, Rock Island or Harpers Ferry arsenals or production of the M1 at Winchester, International Harvester....
Where the American production was uniform the Soviet Union allowed some flexibility from nation to nation since the production was not done under Soviet control but under licensing since there was no patent right to the AK. Baretta did the same thing to the M1 after WW2 and was considered the inspiration for the M14.
WASSR is the Romanian arsenal They switched over to making export guns at the fall of the Soviet Union. They were making trash for a while but have improved.
Yugo can come from any of the arsenals in the old Yugoslavian area. Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia. They make a variety of good stuff.
You will also see a variety labeled PAP as in NPAP and OPAP, they are Serbian.
Saiga is made at the old Ishmash arsenal over near Lake Baikal. they have no pistol grip and the trigger is moved to the rear of the action. They also use different magazines. They also make AK pattern shotguns.
VEPR is also a common import, but they are jazzed up as sporters, like the Saiga.
The VZ58 is Czechoslovakian. CZ was the rogue state of the SU and built their own designs. All CZ guns are excellent. The Chech guns normally do not have interchangeable parts. They are among the best of the variants that were made. They look sort of like an AK but are quite different on examination.
You will also see the CIA brand. That is Century International Arms. They are the largest importer in the US at this point. They are also producing complete guns at their Vermont factory.
NORINCO was the old firm that imported mostly Chinese arms back before the Clinton Ban. They are still major importers in Canada. There are still a lot of Norinco Chinese AKs floating around on the used gun market.
All of the AK models have diverged since the SU broke up, mostly to meet the standards of the export market. Most of the differences are cosmetic or in stocks and how they are mounted with most internals being the same. They have also stretched the AK action to accommodate both .308 and 7.62x54R cartridges.
Many of the AK rifles being sold are now manufactured or modified in Vermont, USA. All AK rifles imported must meet 922r compliance regulations so they are all stripped to the frame and a number of US made parts installed to meet the law before they are shipped to distributers. Each rifle must have at least 6 specific USA made parts to meet the requirements.
How do you tell a good one from a bad one??? You look real close. As in anything else, workmanship will tell.
But even there things are tricky. The WASSR guns come in different levels of trim, like the difference between a field grand and presentation grade shotgun. You get the same action and internals and a different level of finish.
Right now some of the WASSR rifles are available with powder coated actions and unfinished stocks. They look like crap but they are good shooters.
Thats pretty much what we got... No fan fill no glitter, but damned reliable and a straight shooter.Quote:
Originally Posted by kyratshooter
Crash, I think KY pretty much hit all the nails on the head, but if theres a point you want expanded on just say so and we will make more sense out of it for you.
EB
Look for canted stocks and canted front sights, sloppy fit of mags in the magazine wells. Overall fit and finish is a good indicator. But, I have seen some older Wasr-10s with ratty looking furniture that shoot as good as any AK I have seen. The canted front sight was the big complaint on most Wasr-10s and that can be fixed. But, be better just checking for it before you buy one.
Also, a big thing for a lot of guys was a chrome lined barrel for corrosive ammo. I think most ammo available is non-corrosive now.
So I guess this has turned into "AK Cook Book"?
Now I am still trying to get what the 300 blackout is designed to do?
Big bullet 220 gr 30 cal subsonic for suppressor use?
Smaller light lighter 125 cal bullet for flat shooting supersonic use?
Alternate use of the AR platform to match the 7.62 X39 AK round....sorta a military 30-30.
Seems like a lot of work and expense solving a problem no one has come up with yet?
I think it was the first one for special ops.
.300BO was engineered to meet the performance of the 7.62x39 as closely as possible using the AR platform and AR magazines.
No "cloak and dagger" work, no requests from the military. It was a private development of a proprietary cartridge to cash in on sales potential of replicating AK performance on an AR platform.
Took them 65 years and a few million dollars to get there, and some day they might make it.
While the developers met all their other goals they were not able to duplicate performance and with the present powders available, they wound up 200fps slower than the AK round.
200fps might not sound like much of a drop but it is the same difference between 30-06 and 300Win Mag. It is really going to show up in the drop figures out at 250-350 meters where both cartridges are stretched to the max.
Some of us dont buy guns based on solving a problem, other than not having enough guns in enough different calibers and most importantly, enough money to support our "needs" :banana: :cool::gunsmilie:Quote:
Originally Posted by hunter63
You just posted that to a man that owns 463 Handi Rifle barrels.
LOL, he should be the one guy with the best reasons to buy another one ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Well I did say that a 300 black out is on my Handi "Maybe" list.........Right now I starting to play with the .500 S&W that followed me back from Louisiana.....
Was just trying to see what the advantage or this round was.....and history.
Your are correct......I don't "need" a reason....other than I don't have one,....... yet......LOL
Some of us passed the "need based purchase point" way back in the past!
We have even passed the "two is one, one is none" fantasy level.
As for the number of handirifle barrels???
Shall we compare that to owning a half dozen AR upper units in all sorts of wildcat configurations?
My vote on this one???
Too each his own!
Buy a blackout and play with it to your heart's content. You are not hurting me, yourself or anyone else.
or if economy is in the mix, go for the 7.62x39 in one or the other of its configurations; SKS, AK or VZ.
One can purchase the VZ58, 5 mags and 500 rounds of 7.62x39, or an SKS and 1000 rounds, for the cost of the .300BO upper unit offered at Midway.
I gonna guess that a 300BO barrel for the Handi is gonna show up at some point.
Was just trying to follow a path of development.
7.62 X 39,...Kinda a 30-30
.300BO tried to match performance of the 7.62 X 39.....Why?
I'm not even talking hunting here....just to have a round close to a AK round?
Just to do it....because you can, ....because it's cool....Hey why not.
I do not have anything against as many AR uppers as your wallet can handle, friend has built all sorts of AR up to and including the .308......and maybe 6 or seven calibers in between 6.5, 6.8, .243, 460.....NOT a problem.
Think of how many Handi Barrels I can get......
Here's the wiki article you posted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/300_AAC....62%C3%9735mm)
300 AAC Blackout, SAAMI short name 300 BLK, also known as 7.62×35mm is a rifle cartridge developed in the United States by Advanced Armament Corporation (AAC) for use in the M4 carbine. Its purpose is to achieve ballistics similar to the 7.62×39mm Soviet cartridge in an AR-15 platform while using standard AR-15 magazines at their normal capacity.
Barrel costs I've seen are pretty low unless you want match grade.
http://www.midwayusa.com/find?dimensionids=17125
For $200 or less I can convert my AR to another, arguably stronger, caliber and still use the same upper and mags. The price of the round and its availability are other factors, however.
Again, KY brings good info to the thread, however to expand on it, I provide the link from Wiki that may fill in any gaps...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/300_AAC...2%C3%9735mm%29
IMHO, Id just assume stick with the reliable AK platform and the inexpensive Russian steel case ammo and live within the limitations of the CARTRIDGE (not the AK). Thus far, Ive been more than happy with the setup, however if someone was dead set on the 300, Id say go for it... Its not a failed venture. For me, I cant afford the hardware or the ammo, and I also think that post SHTF the 300 is going to be no where as common as the 223 or X39 so swap/share is kinda out of the question.
Again, Im not bashing the 300... rather just giving my personal idea on it.
EB
PS
This was a decent little write up by Kev... Mostly on point with my thoughts...
http://www.survivalistboards.com/sho...d.php?t=239677
The $200 is just the cost of the barrel. You will still have to build a dedicated upper unit around it. The complete ready to install upper unit in 300BO was on sale this weekend for $500. That was why I used that particular price. I think the sale is over at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/892...ProductFinding
Unless you are intending to sacrifice an existing .223 upper unit to the cause. Which is always an option.
Help me out here. Why would you need an upper? I confess I'm not a gun guru. I understand the barrel change but why the upper. Wouldn't the bolt and extractors still work? What am I missing?
If you are scrapping a .223 upper for the .300BO you can use the same bolt, bolt carrier, extractors...
Personally, I would want to have both calibers available, so I would want a dedicated upper unit for each.
There are a lot of people slapping uppers together and getting away with it, for a while, but the barrel really needs to be head-spaced to the bolt, and most kitchen table builders can not do that properly.
Just like with any modern bolt action rifle, this is a high pressure round and head-spacing does matter. Most people would not even pretend to screw a barrel into a model 700 action and shoot it without proper head-spacing, but they feel they can slap a few AR parts together and call it a safe build. Just because it locks up, ejects, and the firing pin works does not mean it is safe.
As you cruise the internet you can find all sorts of blow ups that these people are claiming expose junk parts and bad manufacturing of parts, when the real problem is a bad build with sloppy tolerances and no attempt at head-spacing.
Head space I understand. Thank you. I see where you are coming from.
Kyrat,Quote:
Originally Posted by kyratshooter
Oh all knowing gunsmith of the hills, can you breifly explain how to set the head spacing on a rifle? I have always been interested in the proper procedure for head spacing. Do you use shim stock. Dye chem, just how in the heck do you do it?
Thanks you..........WT
I think that's the way to go; get a rifle in .300 Blackout, then pick up a 5.56 upper. Run the BO enough to verify it works and learn the POA/poi for it, then do the bulk of your training with the cheaper 5.56 ammo.
I took your advice, Kyrat, and picked up an AK47 and 1000 rounds. Sadly, on my way back home the canoe rolled so I'm out yet another weapon and all the ammo. It was a Yugo M70 AB2 under folder. If anyone sees one floating it's mine.
OMG!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
I have tears for you, how deep is the water where it went down?
It's always 10 ft. past where you can get at for possible retrieval...and a fast current........Sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizz123
Congrats Rick, you have moved from the world of the complicated, delicate and marginal to the world of the robust and adequate! You are now a member of the 100,000,000+ club! And more than one hundred million people can not all be wrong.
Not much of anything handier than the AK underfolder. Fit behind the truck seat, fit in the suitcase, fit under a parka. You lose you cheek weld position but if you are real careful the accuracy is still there.
You can not use a side mounted scope on them but with all the rail equipped bolt covers you could find something that would be secure and ride on top I am sure. Or just go with the flow, view it as a utility gun and shoot the open sights.
And if you have never owned an AK the breakdown procedure is amazingly simple. But the M70 has a button release that must be depressed to push in the takedown device at the back of the bolt cover. You would have seen it in the book if you had read it before it got soaked in the canoe wreck. The M70 is the only AK with that feature and it eliminates one of the only complaints that are expressed by AK users, looseness, rattle and insecurity of the bolt cover. Of course, theoretically, the AK would run without the bolt cover.
The gun only has about six or seven moving parts in the firing cycle. Carrier-piston/recoil spring/bolt/firing pin/hammer/trigger/trigger spring. They are all big massive parts. In fact, most of the things people do not like about the AR were simply eliminated from the AK design. (15 years before the AR was born)
You might also look into buying a pre-folded 80% receiver blank. 80% frames for the AK cost about $35. If you ever find where the gun sank and recover it only to find the receiver has rusted out you can drill some holes and swap all the parts to the new receiver in about a days work with an electric drill.
As you work with the AK things will go better if you always view the gun as a souped up, high performance, semiautomatic submachine gun with a gas piston rather than a downgraded rifle. When it was developed the Soviets were not looking for a replacement for the MN rifle, they were looking for a better version of the 20,000,000 selective fire submachine guns they had come to rely on during WW2.
One might even view the 7.62x39 cartridge not as a reduced power rifle cartridge, but as an up sized 7.62x25 pistol round! One can view it as a Tork case stretched 14mm and given a heavy bullet, or as a 7.62x54 case shortened 15mm, the rim removed, the case taper changed and the bullet reduced. The latter sounds a bit complicated while the former sounds like a simple sell job to TPTB. The original cartridge, as developed, even had a round nose, like the Tork, but was upgraded to a pointed bullet to get some accuracy out at 200 meters.
At any rate, the DOC really does need to contribute a big heavy magnet and a long rope for inclusion in your gear box. It would even retrieve all that steel cased ammo!
I've tried everything to retrieve the stuff. And, as I explained to the ATF it appears to be 1 foot deeper than anything can reach, including deep water submersibles. So I'm stuck with nothing when the ATF guys knock. I have the PSL or PSL variant or whatever it truly is. Everyone seems to have a different opinion on what they are supposed to be called by they are the same platform as the AK in terms of stuffing. As I understand it, this one is a bit beefier and a tad heavier that most AKs because of the grenade launching platform. I'm going to check with a couple of neighbors tomorrow and see if they will mind me practicing launching grenades into their yard. Or I would if the darn thing hadn't sunk.
M70 and PSL are very different variants.
If it is the Century M70 under-folder it will be marked M70 on the receiver.
If it is a PSL AK length gun it will probably have a swollen front trunion and be made from 1.5mm sheet rather than the standard 1mm.
Most PSL rifles are in 7.62x 54 or 51 and built to resemble the Dragunov.
Gotcha - I just meant that the internals work the same. The gas rod, spring etc. and they come apart in almost the same way.
I want a mag fed X54R VEPR!
Cant afford to shoot it (even with cheaper ammo... (than 308 etc)), but I still want one!!
EB
I don't get why they are so blasted expensive. My PSL looks the same and will reach way past what I'm capable of for a whole lot LESS money. It's mag fed, fires the 54R and makes me look much smarter than I am. Yeah I know they are built with Russian heavy duty parts. They aren't $800 more heavy duty than my PSL.
https://www.atlanticfirearms.com/ak-...pr-rifles.html
Yeah, for the money I could invest in a backup/handout AK and another 1K rnds of ammo!!!
I still want one, but the Mosin will keep the urges at bay... For now...
EB
Well I guess I'll put my $.02 in. Both the .300BK and the 6.8 are expensive to feed. Of the two the 6.8 is the worst as you won't be able to find any cheap parent cartridge to form into the 6.8.There is nothing that the .330BK can do that the 7.62x39 can't except reliably feed in an AR. If you want performance, MOA or better, retained energy down range, great trajectory and less cross wind effect, then it is the 6.5 Grendel you want. The ballistics rival the .308 out to 1000 meters. It can be made from 7.62x39 brass (I've done this). Even the newly formed brass that hasn't had the body blown out yet is very accurate. Yes you will need a barrel, bolt and magazines(the magazines are limited to 25 rounds and are the same length as a 30 round 5.56).
Right now I'm playing with the .30 mini whisper which is the 7.62x25 cartridge loaded with a 125 grain bullet. I'm building this on a .30 carbine receiver I have and a short chambered carbine barrel loads run from 1200 - 1500 fps