homesteading - the real truth? (advice wanted) - newbie, but not green.

Greetings all,

New to the forum, and the concept of total self sufficiency. But I have experience in most all the aspects required. (farming, foraging, raising/butchering animals, mechanical skills for fixing the equipment, etc). In the past I lived on an organic farm in Italy as well.

My question is - I am looking at getting a plot of land (the one I am currently looking at is in the Washington State, columbia river valley) it is more land than I intend to use (40 acres) but I intend to keep some of it natural, and possibly lease some out to other like minded people.

How many hours are required (realistic) for one person (or two) to do such an endeavor? I realize the hours will vary, and the first weeks of planting the crops will be much more labor intensive.

I am thinking 10 acres to start. divided as follows.

• 3 acres - farmland
• 1 acre other farming (mushrooms, fruit trees, etc)
• .5 acre housing, etc.

and the following animals (not all will be taken on at the same time, it will evolve organically)

• chickens
• ducks/geese (suggestions - recommendations on which?)
• rabbits
• goats or sheep/lambs (recommendations on which is easier to maintain, costs)
• fish pond?
• pig

how many would you recommend for each animal? how many hours of work is there. I will be using sustainable agriculture and companion planting. as well as potager (small footprint) planting, to maximize space - not typical row planting.

as stated, it will be in Washington State (columbia river valley) - anyone more familiar with the area, to offer advice/insight?

Thanks in advance.

Hunter63, saying Hey and Welcome to the forum.....there is an introduction section.....
http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...-Introductions

As far as your specific questions, I can only say from experience with many friends that have gone before you....
They traded 9:00 to 5:00 for a 5:00 to 9:00 schedule.......

Very tough to quantify a speculation.

This might be worthwhile reading for you http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...t-Really-Works

Welcome...........

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hunter63

I can only say from experience with many friends that have gone before you....
They traded 9:00 to 5:00 for a 5:00 to 9:00 schedule.......

.

---

Well Said and AWESOME point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Winter

Well Said and AWESOME point.

---

One friend that still dabbles in investments to afford his homestead...commented to me that he had a good year, last year, on the homestead, ....only cost him $180,000 last year.
New well, (drought sucked the old one dry), hospital bill for broke arm, working on well......no insurance, and paid labor to keep things going when he was laid up, and animal feed, (drought wiped out, the corn and beans...after his well went dry).

PS he is the 5:00 to 9:00 guy, so he gets credit for that comment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SIC-society

Greetings all,

New to the forum, and the concept of total self sufficiency. But I have experience in most all the aspects required. (farming, foraging, raising/butchering animals, mechanical skills for fixing the equipment, etc). In the past I lived on an organic farm in Italy as well.

My question is - I am looking at getting a plot of land (the one I am currently looking at is in the Washington State, columbia river valley) it is more land than I intend to use (40 acres) but I intend to keep some of it natural, and possibly lease some out to other like minded people.

How many hours are required (realistic) for one person (or two) to do such an endeavor? I realize the hours will vary, and the first weeks of planting the crops will be much more labor intensive.

I am thinking 10 acres to start. divided as follows.

• 3 acres - farmland
• 1 acre other farming (mushrooms, fruit trees, etc)
• .5 acre housing, etc.

and the following animals (not all will be taken on at the same time, it will evolve organically)

• chickens
• ducks/geese (suggestions - recommendations on which?)
• rabbits
• goats or sheep/lambs (recommendations on which is easier to maintain, costs)
• fish pond?
• pig

how many would you recommend for each animal? how many hours of work is there. I will be using sustainable agriculture and companion planting. as well as potager (small footprint) planting, to maximize space - not typical row planting.

as stated, it will be in Washington State (columbia river valley) - anyone more familiar with the area, to offer advice/insight?

Thanks in advance.

---

Keep in mind sheep need lots of room for pasture. Goats are great... Boer goats are perfect for meat, Alpine is good for dairy. Many other kinds, you can find duel. You need to keep them fenced in and this is not cheap. If they get out you will not have a garden or fruit tree's left. Barred Rocks or Buff Orpingtons are a good duel breed chicken. You will need to keep them out of the garden as well or they will scratch around and uproot all your plants... and eat a lot of them too. Flemish Giant rabbits are the best for meat, mine usually get in the 50lbs range. Ducks and geese need a pond or stream of sorts... the fish pond would do work out good for that. I like stalking with mud pout because the damn things just wont die. Don't know much about pigs, never kept them. Try to keep as much as free range as possible to you don't have to buy food for them, or very little aside from winter. I stick everything in the freezer for winter and start all over in the spring so I don't have to buy food for them and they save me a lot of money in meat. For the birds, don't buy chicks, buy a few adult birds and get an incubator to hatch them out yourself to save money. Your going to have your hands full with hungry critters coming at night to snack, and maybe even bears. You should get some guinea fowl... they are like alarm systems when anything comes around... when a mouse farts or when a leaf falls from a tree. They can be very loud and annoying but at least they will alert you. A good barking fool dog is good too.

I recently got this book to review, but my typical lazy self I've not reviewed it. Being a blogger and owning this website I've gotten on some publisher mailing lists and I get free books all the time... Anyways

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...SIN=B00AQZJ1SG

This book isn't perfect, it is a bit like bird shot, scattered all over. The organizational style isn't conducive to education IMO (stuff about chickens can be scattered all over the book for instance). The author also goes off the deepend a few times and or makes assumptions about her readers.

BUT... she does apparently do what you want to do. She talks a lot about land needs and time needs. You may find the book useful. On any one topic though it goes into little depth.

This book http://www.amazon.com/Back-Basics-Co...back+to+basics is full of useful information. I refer to my copy often.

You should get bee's too, help pollinate and make a little money off the honey. And grow some Atlantic Giant pumpkins, people love to spend insane money on 500lb pumpkins to impress their kids with. Its not a ton of money in the grand scheme, but money is money.

CRASH want to thank you for that link to the Alaska cabin stories. Oh my gosh so insightful as to how hard it is to live in the north in winter. Almost everyone underestimates the wood needed for heat, hot water (if that is what you are using to heat water), cooking, etc. If you think you need 4 cords, you most likely need at least 6-7 is our finding.
Everyone should read that link. The guy was SO practical on what it really takes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SIC-society

Greetings all,

New to the forum, and the concept of total self sufficiency. But I have experience in most all the aspects required. (farming, foraging, raising/butchering animals, mechanical skills for fixing the equipment, etc). In the past I lived on an organic farm in Italy as well.

My question is - I am looking at getting a plot of land (the one I am currently looking at is in the Washington State, columbia river valley) it is more land than I intend to use (40 acres) but I intend to keep some of it natural, and possibly lease some out to other like minded people.

How many hours are required (realistic) for one person (or two) to do such an endeavor? I realize the hours will vary, and the first weeks of planting the crops will be much more labor intensive.

I am thinking 10 acres to start. divided as follows.

• 3 acres - farmland
• 1 acre other farming (mushrooms, fruit trees, etc)
• .5 acre housing, etc.

and the following animals (not all will be taken on at the same time, it will evolve organically)

• chickens
• ducks/geese (suggestions - recommendations on which?)
• rabbits
• goats or sheep/lambs (recommendations on which is easier to maintain, costs)
• fish pond?
• pig

how many would you recommend for each animal? how many hours of work is there. I will be using sustainable agriculture and companion planting. as well as potager (small footprint) planting, to maximize space - not typical row planting.

as stated, it will be in Washington State (columbia river valley) - anyone more familiar with the area, to offer advice/insight?

Thanks in advance.

---

Honestly, I'd skip the rabbits. They're picky eaters, not very hardy (unless there are breeds that I'm not aware of) and require tons of foliage. Goats, on the other hand, eat anything and everything.

I'd do goats over sheep.

Oh, and welcome :) .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hunter63

One friend that still dabbles in investments to afford his homestead...commented to me that he had a good year, last year, on the homestead, ....only cost him $180,000 last year.
New well, (drought sucked the old one dry), hospital bill for broke arm, working on well......no insurance, and paid labor to keep things going when he was laid up, and animal feed, (drought wiped out, the corn and beans...after his well went dry).

PS he is the 5:00 to 9:00 guy, so he gets credit for that comment.

---

Honestly, wouldn't it be possible to buffer against things such as drought? Like planting trees around your place in order to have the general environment more moist?

thanks - all, for the prompt reply.

Initial thought.

long hours - 12-14 hour days (at least while getting the garden planted, etc). nothing new to me, as I am a chef. used to 70-80 hour work weeks in a hot kitchen (imagine wood fired pizza in New Orleans summer - with no AC, where you split your own firewood. no days off, 75-80 hour week). long hours and hard work is nothing new. It will be nice to see the rewards for my labor directly,instead of someone else making the money from it (i know, I will not really make any money from this)).

planning 2-3 acres garden, with raised beds, and mulch between the beds (that will have mushroom spores added, so I will have some fresh mushrooms) companion planting, and the mulch will cut down on evaporation - reducing watering demands. Fruit trees will be added around the property for shade and fruit.

rainwater collection (as well as from the roof) for watering the garden and for the animals.

wood fire stove, micro house (less than 500 sq ft, with a loft, well insulated).

initial animals -
- 2 - goats (one for meat, one dairy)
- 7 - chickens (4 for egg, 3 mixed - egg/meat)

4 legged alarm system (DOG)

(maybe) rabbits - the right breed can provide a good supply of meat as well as the fur for insulation.

I am thinking grow the grains that would be reuired for the chickens, and potentially rabbits. So They can be self sustaining as well.

add later -
- fish pond -
- ducks or geese -

based on these numbers, how much meat (realistically) will I have over the year? (I know I will need to suppliment it for a normal "american" diet, but even now I do not consume a large amount of meat. and the chickens will provide eggs for protein.

oh - and bees , maybe guinea fowl.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SIC-society

thanks - all, for the prompt reply.

Initial thought.

long hours - 12-14 hour days (at least while getting the garden planted, etc). nothing new to me, as I am a chef. used to 70-80 hour work weeks in a hot kitchen (imagine wood fired pizza in New Orleans summer - with no AC, where you split your own firewood. no days off, 75-80 hour week). long hours and hard work is nothing new. It will be nice to see the rewards for my labor directly,instead of someone else making the money from it (i know, I will not really make any money from this)).

planning 2-3 acres garden, with raised beds, and mulch between the beds (that will have mushroom spores added, so I will have some fresh mushrooms) companion planting, and the mulch will cut down on evaporation - reducing watering demands. Fruit trees will be added around the property for shade and fruit.

rainwater collection (as well as from the roof) for watering the garden and for the animals.

wood fire stove, micro house (less than 500 sq ft, with a loft, well insulated).

initial animals -
- 2 - goats (one for meat, one dairy)
- 7 - chickens (4 for egg, 3 mixed - egg/meat)

4 legged alarm system (DOG)

(maybe) rabbits - the right breed can provide a good supply of meat as well as the fur for insulation.

I am thinking grow the grains that would be reuired for the chickens, and potentially rabbits. So They can be self sustaining as well.

add later -
- fish pond -
- ducks or geese -

based on these numbers, how much meat (realistically) will I have over the year? (I know I will need to suppliment it for a normal "american" diet, but even now I do not consume a large amount of meat. and the chickens will provide eggs for protein.

---

Tough to say. This is based on how much food/energy you need. Everyone is different in this respect. I'd recommend just giving it a shot and seeing how much you consume/need. If you're even more hungry, then you know you'll need more food.

Just give it a shot and see what happens :) .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yves

Honestly, I'd skip the rabbits. They're picky eaters, not very hardy (unless there are breeds that I'm not aware of) and require tons of foliage. Goats, on the other hand, eat anything and everything.

I'd do goats over sheep.

Oh, and welcome :) .

---

I've raised New Zealand's, Rex', Flemish giants, and English Lops... never found any of them to be picky eaters. They are like lawnmowers. I find clover is something they can't get enough of. They also grow at a very fast rate, can put meat in the freezer in 8-10 weeks. You can have over a 100lbs of meat in the freezer if you get two or three does and a buck in early spring and breed them until winter with only spending a few dollars on some hay and grain for rainy days.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yves

Honestly, wouldn't it be possible to buffer against things such as drought? Like planting trees around your place in order to have the general environment more moist?

---

I would suppose that that would help....but the is kind of a simplistic statement.....Kinda falls in the category of "all we have to do is....."

Since the beginning of agriculture your life and prosperity will depend on weather and all sorts of variables, that can't be over come with simple hard work.

I found a lot of ideas in the older issues of Mother Earth News magazine........
Real early issues had an article on 1 acre Self Sufficient Homestead.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/moder...m0z11zkon.aspx

Follow your dream, just be aware that in practice, things can and do take many turns, most all of them not in your favor.

Good luck.

my experience has been the more money you have the less work you have to do, the less money you have the more work you have to do. With low funds the term sweat equity becomes reality.

After reading the responses and looking it over, here are the plans.

stage 1

.5 acres - garden (mixture of potager and row gardening)
.25 acres - fruit and berries
7-8 chicken (mixture of egg laying and meat)

Stage 2

3 goats (2 meat, one dairy)
3 rabbits

stage 3

1 pig
? geese
larger event hall, for hosting dinners. with commercial kitchen, and root cellar, cooler.

If you intend to free range your chickens expect losses. Something I learned in the couple years I had goats is that they can squeeze out of almost any fence you put them in so don't skimp on your fencing. If your only looking at 7 or 8 chickens i'd get layers......you can eat them too!

If you are going to have dairy goats you will HAVE to feed them correctly. Yes they will eat anything and that "anything" makes their milk taste terrible. It tastes great if they just get to eat good stuff. But one rose bush can ruin it all for days!

Sic, have you given consideration to all of the equipment you will need for your farm? Not discounting your planning, but have not seen mention of this. So as wilderness brothers I think we need to cover the equipment he will need for his farm, don't you agree?

From what I have read, this is some of the things you will need:

1. 4X4 pickup
2. Trailer
3. 2 chain saws, 1 large, 1 small
4. Tractor with tiller and brushhog attachments
5. ATV would be nice!
6. Back up generator.
7. lots of gardening hand tools.
8. Lots of mechanics hand tools.
9. Riding lawn mower.
10. Gasoline water pump.
11. Gas storage tank.

Probably nowhere near a complete list, but just some things off the top of my head!

the plan for the chickens, is free range them in one (unplanted) section of the garden. with three planted. rotate them through the other three sections (every 3 months) so they clear and fertilize the soil for the planting season. so yes, they will be free range, but in an enclosed area. so fairly protected. on average, figure an egg every other day from each chicken? so a dozen chickens would provide about a dozen eggs, every other day?
well aware of the equipment, the area I am looking at is fairly clear land (no trees) so I may rethink my wood fired idea, and go with something else. Also, would a good sized ATV (with tractor accessories) work for the utility as well as the soil work?

thanks -

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SIC-society

the plan for the chickens, is free range them in one (unplanted) section of the garden. with three planted. rotate them through the other three sections (every 3 months) so they clear and fertilize the soil for the planting season. so yes, they will be free range, but in an enclosed area. so fairly protected. on average, figure an egg every other day from each chicken? so a dozen chickens would provide about a dozen eggs, every other day?
well aware of the equipment, the area I am looking at is fairly clear land (no trees) so I may rethink my wood fired idea, and go with something else. Also, would a good sized ATV (with tractor accessories) work for the utility as well as the soil work?

thanks -

---

I doubt that an ATV would serve well as a tractor. Nothing beats a small tractor with a tiller and brush hog attatchments for tilling a large garden, and hogging brush and weeds to keep the land clear. Now, actually a large tiller would do the job for the garden, and a large riding mower would keep the weeds down if you didn't let them get too big. All I'm saying is a tractor would make your life much easier. If your truck gets stuck, the tractor will most likely pull it out! Tilling the garden would only take an hour with the tractor and would be tilled deep and fine. You can always get out cheaper with lesser equipment, but if you can afford it, I would want at least a small tractor for tilling and mowing. There are so many uses for a tractor it is hard to list them all. With a PTO you can even run a generator!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SIC-society

the plan for the chickens, is free range them in one (unplanted) section of the garden. with three planted. rotate them through the other three sections (every 3 months) so they clear and fertilize the soil for the planting season. so yes, they will be free range, but in an enclosed area. so fairly protected. on average, figure an egg every other day from each chicken? so a dozen chickens would provide about a dozen eggs, every other day?
well aware of the equipment, the area I am looking at is fairly clear land (no trees) so I may rethink my wood fired idea, and go with something else. Also, would a good sized ATV (with tractor accessories) work for the utility as well as the soil work?
thanks -

---

ATV do have accessories but I can tell you they are too light to be of much use in tilling and moving soil......Fun though.

I mowed about 2 to 4 acres with a pull behind mower for years at "The Place" (our cabin/homestead) and it beat the carp out of both the machine and mower.
They are not designed to run for long periods of time at low, pulling speeds, ....a bucket will move mulch, but not much else....hard to plow with them as the turning radis is very long.
ATV Machine $3000 to $7500 + mower $1000 to $2000 bucks

You will need a tractor w/implements......and although an old tractor looks cool, they are not a "working machine" but a toy to most that have them.
Kubota, Mahindra, John Deer, Massey Ferguson....are all good....be sure you get one with local dealer back up, if they break down, it will ALWAYS be in the middle of a job....a lot of the cheaper tractors don't have parts and service avalible (tractors are a whole another subject alone)
Used/new $5000 to $25000 plus implements.

Can't speak to chickens, but varmints are a concern........

One thing to look up and do more research is look for youtube videos on Joel Salatine. He does cows, chickens, turkeys and pigs. He also does rabbits, but not large scale. All his methods are scaleable, up or down.

Not to hijack the thread but more info on why the tractor needs to be so $$ and big? We are going to do the same with chickens in fenced in areas, chicken tractor, and perhaps goats (who can help eat the brush on the weeks when I don't need any dairy from them).

We had planned on the Ruth Stout NO TILL method for our garden as it is filled with bedrocks and gravel. We plan to use the "plant in the bag" method (ala Mother Earth News and others) on top of mulch/straw/cardboard and at the end of the year dump the soil bags on the now mostly decomposed straw/mulch. We figure 2 years of this and we will have over 15" soil and compost beneath it. They say not to till this kind of garden.

But you are saying we will likely need a tractor to keep brush down (could we just rent something 2x/year - so much cheaper? and use goats) and mowing. We can rent a large mower for a day for $200 and we would likely only need it 4x/summer for paths. We have a small electric one for the area around the house.
We have never had land before. Ours is mostly wooded with a large clearing and pond. Are there other reasons we would need a tractor that I am missing? Any suggestions are welcome as we are trying to do what he is and are doing all planning now. Thanks.

Solar you can get by without a tractor no problem, all we are saying is that it will make your life much easier. I guess a no till garden will work although I have never tried it. A tractor is good for many things, and will go almost anywhere unlike a truck or car, and is the farmers friend when it comes to mowing, tilling, pulling stuck vehicles out of the mud. They will pull huge loads, drag logs, pull out stumps after the roots are cut, go through deep snow ( better than a truck ), run a generator from a PTO, blade gravel driveways, on and on.
But you can do without one it is just a lot more work!

I started a tractor thread so as to not hijack this one if anyone is interested....
BTW I purchased/have a Mahindra as I have local dealer, and was prices 20% lower then JD, M-F, or Kubota

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...-the-Homestead

Getting back to the OP's opening questions: You mentioned the Columbia River Valley. That encompasses a huge area. Is your area in the NE section of WA, or is it in southern part of the state? Alot of central Washington is extremely arid and a farmer must irrigate. Water rights are a big deal in most parts of the west. The northern section of the Columbia is much more moist, but with much longer and colder winters.

I have passed most of the farm, the metal shop, and other business over to my kids to run.

I keep a 5 acre homestead that is pretty self sufficient.

I find that it takes me about 24 hours each day to fully live each day. This includes sleeping eating, taking care of things and smelling the roses.

a homestead is a 24/7/365 thing unless you have someone to cover for you. Every single day stuff has to get done.

It is a good life, but it isn't one of laying up and being taken care of, and while you can always borrow time for this or that, if you don't take care of the place things die. Gardens, Animals, even the soil and water need regular stewardship.

Thad.

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