attention knappers

i want to open a dialogue [polylogue?] about knapping.

i'm just getting back into it [and not that far in] but i've gotten to the point [pun intended] where i can get consistent points from bottle glass half the time.

because of the shape of bottle bottoms, the work i've been doing lately is almost entirely pressure flaking; an area where i need much improvement. i have trouble consistently driving off long flakes, they've been comming off at about 45 deg. sometimes, but i'm improving.

here are a few from two weeks or so ago:

Very cool. I'd like to try that but, i'm not sure where to start or the tools involved. They look like a work of art.

those are just made from the bottoms of beer bottles, broken and cleaned up into preforms with the pommel of my knife and pressure flaked with a flaker made from an annealed steel nail sunk into a 8' handle of 1/2" dia. alder.

Are you abraising before you flake?

Beer bottles, how pointy is your copper pressure flaker" On glass and obsidian, I am constantly abraising the rock and filing the copper pressure flaker to a point.

Are you working between your knees or are you on a table? I work between my knees and use my legs for leverage.

If you are knapping in your palm, have you tried a little bench? I take a piece of 1/4" plywood and epoxy a wide 1" fan belt to it. Total dim. is 1 to 1.5" wide to 5" long. I cut a notch in the middle across the bench about 1/4" deep. This allows me to hold smaller points and also get a long flake.


Here ya go.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...MVC-004S-1.jpg

Very cool you guys, talented even.

Very nice guys!!!!

I am very impressed.

Where did you go to learn this art?

my flakers are annealed soft steel. they don't wear quite as fast as copper but still get impressed by the glass and obsidian. i file them [slightly squared off pyramid] frequently; about each 10 min of flaking, as i notice them blunt].

i abrade they way i've seen some other knappers do, by using the edge along my flaker's tip to strape along the edge of the piece.

it's clear to me at this point that i need to learn some more techniques, but i'd like to master the few basics i've been trying to hone at the same time.

on a side note, my friend dropped by while i was picking up bowyering/lamination supplies for a project and dropped off a nice tray of some obsidian slab cutting rejects from a relative of his that should offer me some fun. most pieces have inclusions of cortex and such but they look workable for some functional blades and broadheads.

GVan: i'm trying to learn from the scant internet postings of people like FVR who actually know what they're doing, and from watching other knappers at work, when seldom i get the chance. there are some nice videos from a few talented knappers at Primitive ways.

FVR those are great, the one's on the right are really good, damn near perfect:D now that's some serious knapping!!!! :D

Those on the right, polished them up to look just like steel points.

I fade in and out of knapping. An old gent in the neighborhood heard that I made selfbows, he stopped over oneday and asked if I wanted to learn to knapp the old way, well hell yeh!

Paleoplanet is a good place to do a little research, along with knappers anonamous.

Here is an ax I made many years ago, donated it to St. Judes auction.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/FrankV/56298.jpg

Here is the first Caveman Kabar that I made. Gave it to a good friend, I've since made three more and have shipped them all away.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...Mvc-001s-1.jpg


I am currently working on number 5, it is a big one and will have an antler handle with sinew and rawhide. When I get it done, sometime.

one of my latest hunting points:

Wow, I definitely have to try this now! I was loathing to wait for summer to fint some flint but beer bottle bottoms? GENIUS!

Beer bottle bottoms, that's just the beginning.

If you find some thick pane glass, spray paint both sides flat black and let dry. Now you can see your flakes.

I've knapped plates, ash trays, toilet bowls, stained glass, wine bottles are awsome, thick beer mugs that break, if a glass breaks in our home, all bottoms are kept.

You can get obsidian from local pet stores. Yeh, they put obsidian and poured slag glass from pet stores that sell fish. Fish rocks and also coral is knappable.

I mentioned on another thread, smoke tinted coffee table and dining room table tops are great. Yardsale time.

ceramic coffee mugs are workable too.

Ok.. here is my question.. and I have never done knapping. I know that the head of the arrow is going to weigh it down at the attachment end. How long does the arrow have to be to counterbalance the weight of the arrow head? That has nothing to do with knapping the arrow head... or does it? Do you have to flake off enough material on the head to make it a certain weight so the arrow doesn't drop short on the fly?

Thanks for that post on knapping Canid. This gets us back on the subject of outdoor survival..

I make my hunting heads in the 125 to 200 grain range. Your arrowhead will effect your arrow flight, but more important is the spine of the arrow. Your arrow needs to be spined enough for your bow, if underspined with a heavy head, the arrow will break and hopefully not go through your forearm.

Overspined arrows with heavy heads, can be shot and if you can cant the bow enough, it will compensate for the stiff arrow and good arrow flight can be attained.

If you knap an arrowhead too heavy, just trim it down. If you thin it out but it's wide enough and just too light, wrap sinew or fine copper wire at the base of the arrowhead and up the shaft an inch or two.


Spining an arrow is a bit tricky. My jig is based on a 27 inch arrow. I use a 2lb weight and dial it in for 64lb spine centers. Now, if you have a 31 inch arrow, you spine it the same way, but you need to understand that you have a longer arrow, it is not as stiff, yes it is at 64lb at 27, it may be truly 60 or less at 31 inches.

So that being said, you can have a 64 lb arrow, spined at what you are use to, but if the arrow is longer, you may be underspined which will make your arrows fly to the right. It goes to the right because of the archers paradox.

The archers paradox is the term used for the arrow bending around the riser. You have a standing piece of wood, all of a sudden you put 64lbs of pressure on it, it's gonna bend. That bending on many bows enables the arrow to actually fly around the riser of the bow and continue to go straight.

To eliminate this, many bowyers like myself, make bows centershot. You can do this by cutting out your riser or what I do, I make my bow crooked, so the string crosses and lays right on the left side of the handle where I nock the arrow.

So, I can shoot arrows as low as 55 spined, up to telephone poles out of my bows.

The arrowhead weight is another whole category.

Some like the light arrowheads saying that they are faster, others like myself really don't care about speed, use 150 to 200 grain arrowheads with stout arrows. The heavy arrow belief is that of torque rather than speed. We like arrows that are like bulldozers, maybe not so fast, but a def. pass through, even if they hit a rib or tough muscle.

The old argument, Mass vs Speed.

that's not quite the way it works ridge wolf. arrows can be made to any length, as long as the flexibility of the arrow [measured in spine weight] is appropriate for the weight of the arrow [and length will affect the required spine], the weight of the point and the propellant forces expressed by the bow. typically, a point under 100 grains [6.45g] will not require adjustment in spine [though you could go up #5 or so if you think it'll help] for good accuracy and in general, anything over 150grains [9.72g] will require a #5-10 increase in spine.

for a decent article on arrow spine and the factors that affect it, see here.

Thanks guys.. :D

Hey Ridge, I'm in your class. Did you just sit there blinking like a deer in the headlights? Cause I did. Spine weight? Underspined? Cant? The one that really caught my attention was the broken arrow through the forearm. I cringed on that one. Probably a good reason I don't use bow and arrow. Everyone including myself is a lot safer.

so back to the subject of knapping.

i've been playing around a bit, failing regularly and generally having a good time. you know the type. i've also been watching some more videos. i've borrowed a copy of jim redfern's making a dalton point. i noticed the solution he gives for fixing a hinge while he's thining and establishing a working edge on his piece. he relies on trying to use a partial ridge left from his work on the opposite edge of the piece to try to undercut it. i've seen other knappers do this too when luck has left them one.

as i'm still not good at percussion flaking or thinning and i still hinge constantly, it occurs to me to try an idea i had while i was trying to figure out a good proceedure/rhythm for thinning. i'm going to try intentionally leaving ridges between each two scars or so, so i have evenly spaced opportunities to cut across the piece as i get to that point on the other edge.

has anybody else tried something like that? if you know what i mean, what do you think about it?

I've never done any knapping, but all of the talk and some of the examples have sparked a bit of an interest. I was at one of my customer's homes today and knew that he had done some knapping. I asked about where to go to get started (he wasn't home so was talking to his wife). She said you're in luck. Turns out he has done more than just a little knapping. She showed me display cases with what were probably thousands of points, knives, hatchets - really impressive. She then invited me over this weekend where he will be teaching a clinic, along with about a dozen other knappers. I'm really looking forward to learning a new skill. I'll take some pictures and let you know how it turns out.

There is a big ol hooya knapp in on I-75 exit 290 from June 24 to the 27th.

If any of you Georgia, Alabama, or Tenny people want to go, let me know and I may can meet ya thar. Well, I only live one exit north.

I have a few friends who are prob. going to put on arrow building and other kinds of seminars. Oh yeh, my favorite part. It's free.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FVR

There is a big ol hooya knapp in on I-75 exit 290 from June 24 to the 27th.

If any of you Georgia, Alabama, or Tenny people want to go, let me know and I may can meet ya thar. Well, I only live one exit north.

I have a few friends who are prob. going to put on arrow building and other kinds of seminars. Oh yeh, my favorite part. It's free.

---

FVR, I just may take you up on that offer! I'd be interested to learn more about knapping. My grand dad had a farm on the Ohio River (West Virginia side). When he'd till the land in the spring, he'd find arrowheads from Indian settlements. My dad now has them in NY, but I've got dibs when they're to be passed down. I'll try to take some pics of them when I'm up there this summer.

Aurelius

Let me know. I try to make it there at least oneday to look for rocks, wood, and dead critters.

I one time traded roadkill for a stick and a rock. Now that's a good trade.

sounds like my experience at okanogan barter fair in washington ;)

i wish i was on your side of the rockies. i hope you have a blast.

Great looking stuff, That is talent!

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