Glue-on Broadheads: what is the best weight for survival kits?

I've used a variety of glue-on broadheads when making a survival bow & arrow set, but not being an expert on the subject of archery equipment, I was wondering what would be the best weight to purchase for these kits. The survival bows I've made have had on average a draw weight of 35 - 40 lbs. I've made some traps that use an even lighter bow, but these setups have a very short target range.

I've seen glue-on broadheads range in weight from 110 - 175 grain. For a survival bow does the grain weight make much of a difference?

In a survival situation the weight of draw ould be variable, the spine of the arrows would be variable as would almost ever other point that one would want to be uniform under normal circumstances. The commercial boradheads would be the only factor that was uniform.

Anything woudl be be more uniform thant the chipped stone of our ancestors.

I would pick a good broadhead of solid construction and go with it.

I think I would try something like the arrowcard that could be secured with a binding and did not require glue.

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q...e_result_group

I've used the flat arrowheads before but they take a bit more work to secure them solid, where as the glue-on arrowheads slip right over the tapered point of the arrow. I've secured them in a number of ways and they seem to hold up well, they don't snap off as often.

Until tonight I never gave a whole lot of thought about the arrowhead weight, but I thought there may be some advantages to having it either lighter or heavier. A balanced outfit is out of the question.

I prefer slightly heavy broadheads on the self bows that I have made. Generally 125 grain but up to 150 grain for heaver draw weight or bigger game. for a 35# bow, I would try 100 and 125 grain and see whivch flies best.

If you want to go a route other than broadheads you've got some options out there, while still maintaining the "glue on" style.

http://www.nockit.com/points/glue-on-arrow-points

Heavy, if it is only a guess. First consideration should be forward of center weight bias. If you go heavy, you are at least closer to that than with a lite.

The down side could be how much your arrow will buckle on release.

What do you use for fletching, and how much does that and the binding weight? Same for the nock, I assume you use glue on with those also. Assuming a uniform shaft, you need at least that amount of weight on the business end.

Home made bamboo bow i looked at at Rondy earlier this summer, guy had several home made broadheads, flat rear tang(?) sheet metal with basically a lash and glued on to a bamboo shafts....and a few stone points as well.

What kind of shaft are you thinking about?

Crash - I'm currently using Zwickey Eskimo 125 grain. I've used field tips and thumpers as well.

Intothenew, Hunter - These tips are apart of a survival kit along with plastic vanes, nocks, hot glue stick, and a bow string. Everything is for making a survival bow out of what ever may be available.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by intothenew

What do you use for fletching, and how much does that and the binding weight? Same for the nock, I assume you use glue on with those also. Assuming a uniform shaft, you need at least that amount of weight on the business end.

---

Good info... thanks

I agree with the good info. posted above. There are so many variables with a survival/self bow that I would lean towards the lighter end of the weight choices. Broadhead weight became a big topic when the compounds came into being and arrow speeds became lightning fast. Not such an issue with a lower weight of a long bow and especially since the multipliers of the release with the cams and wheels don't come into play. Not saying arrow flex on release is not to be considered or doesn't come into play 60#'s is still 60#'s.

A couple points I will make are that I would go with a traditional 2 blade without the "bleeder" blades since they are much easier to sharpen and have less to go wrong. I like Zywickey but Magnus is a leading brand as well. Another is the glue issue. Pine Pitch glue is not hard to find and use in the wild. That and sinew for binding would be two items that I would become familiar with in your prepping for hunting in a survival type situation. Best of luck and thanks for a good topic to bring up.

Wtrwlr - thanks, more good feedback.

You are right about the pine pitch glue, easy to make. I use the two blade heads because they store flat, are easier to use as a knife if need be, and as you pointed out, easier to sharpen. I have used Ace arrowheads as well, I like them too.

I'm thinking that the flat broad-heads would be my choice as well......as you pointed out, much easier to carry and store, if you ever had a broad-head cut from having a couple of spares stored in the bag.....added bleader vanes or 3 vaned broad heads, ended up being carried in a tin can with foam to keep from rattling.

I wouldn't go heavy at all. Your trying to create F.O.C. (front of center balance). A 100gn will do that. You could do a better job with a heavier head but 100gn is really about all you "need". The heavier you go on point weight, the lighter you make the spine. "Spine is the shafts stiffness". When making your own arrows you may not have consistent straightness so the more you break down the spine, the worse your arrow flight will become. I would not use anything over 125gn.

I'm a noob, but thats my opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 1Underground

I wouldn't go heavy at all. Your trying to create F.O.C. (front of center balance). A 100gn will do that. You could do a better job with a heavier head but 100gn is really about all you "need". The heavier you go on point weight, the lighter you make the spine. "Spine is the shafts stiffness". When making your own arrows you may not have consistent straightness so the more you break down the spine, the worse your arrow flight will become. I would not use anything over 125gn.

I'm a noob, but thats my opinion.

---

Welcome to the forum Underground. You obviously have some knowledge of Archery. If you could take of moment why not do and intro and fill us in a little about yourself? I enjoy meeting other Bowyers, thanks for the post.

My background is mostly with compounds, but basic principals still apply. I make products for the archery industry, mostly competitive, but some hunting stuff too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 1Underground

I wouldn't go heavy at all. Your trying to create F.O.C. (front of center balance). A 100gn will do that. You could do a better job with a heavier head but 100gn is really about all you "need". The heavier you go on point weight, the lighter you make the spine. "Spine is the shafts stiffness". When making your own arrows you may not have consistent straightness so the more you break down the spine, the worse your arrow flight will become. I would not use anything over 125gn.

---

Underground - Could you go a bit deeper into what "break down of the Spine" means? Having a good understanding of arrow dynamics would help in making field expedient arrows. Thanks!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pgvoutdoors

Underground - Could you go a bit deeper into what "break down of the Spine" means? Having a good understanding of arrow dynamics would help in making field expedient arrows. Thanks!

---

While I started to help out with this I'm not near as good at explanations as this paper is. I hope this answers your questions. It seems sorta complicated but it's really not. If you would like to know more I'll try and help if I can.

http://scientificarchery.com/spine.html



History

Originally, proper spine was necessary for the arrow shot from a primitive bow to flex as it was shot, so the fletching would clear the bow and not strike the riser. It was discovered that making an arrow strong enough to withstand being shot, yet weak enough to flex while being launched would result in the arrow automatically flexing around the riser of the bow so the tail of the arrow and consequently the fletching would clear the riser and rest. The rest on primitive bows was nothing more than a notch in the riser. This was the birth of what we have come to know as Archer’s paradox. Proper spine is absolutely necessary for proper Archer’s paradox.

Definition

The generally accepted definition of spine refers to the stiffness of an arrow. Although this is generally true, it is far more advantageous to be much more specific when considering the various aspects of spine and what it means to the modern archer.

There are actually two spines; one is certainly the stiffness of an arrow. This spine is a static measurement made by hanging a specified weight from the center of an arrow suspended between two supports, which are a specified distance apart. The resulting value is the distance the arrow deforms from when it was straight. Arrow spine is primarily a function of the materials of which the arrow is made. Because of the intrinsic properties of suitable materials, arrow spine is also directly related to the overall weight of the arrow. The stronger is the arrow spine; the heavier the arrow. This relationship will always be true however, yet-to-be discovered materials will undoubtedly result in stiffer arrows with less weight in the future. There is a limit however, to how light an arrow can be and still maintain a proper Front-Of-Center or F.O.C. balance and its effective hitting power.

The other spine referred to herein is Shot Spine. This can also be referred to as dynamic arrow spine. Dynamic arrow spine is a more descriptive name, but in this article the term shot spine will be used to make a more clear distinction between the two. Shot spine refers to the flexure of the arrow during launch and all the things, which influence the flexing characteristics of the arrow shaft.

Description

Who Should Be Concerned With Spine?
Safety
First of all, EVERYBODY must be very aware of minimum, SAFE arrow spine. NOBODY should ever shoot an arrow, which has a spine too weak for the bow shooting it. All commercially available arrows have a rating of spine that specifies the draw weight range of the bow with which it is to be used. NEVER shoot an arrow that is underrated for the draw weight of the bow being used to launch it. A weaker arrow will be slightly lighter than an arrow with the proper spine, but the slight increase in speed will never be worth the possible injuries to the archer, or innocent bystanders. Also, using wooden arrows of any spine with a high performance compound bow is not a good idea. These are fundamental safety concerns. But what about performance concerns?

Finger Shooters
Who should be most concerned with spine? FINGER SHOOTERS. Proper spine is of value to only those who rely on Archer’s paradox to provide adequate clearance for the fletching on an arrow when it is shot. Archer’s paradox relies on the flexure of the arrow to perform its task properly. Also, only finger shooters deliberately induce a sinusoidal travel path to the string upon release. The curved path of the string always starts out traveling toward the centerline of the archer regardless of whether the archer is a right or left-handed shooter. This zigzag path will always try to induce an arrow flex. Because of this fact, archer’s paradox will always more or less work although, many factors affect how well it works.

What are factors, which influence shot spine? The primary and most influential factor is the arrow stiffness. Then comes the remainder, which include: length of the arrow shaft, weight of the arrow tip, and the mass of the arrow nock. The final factor is the acceleration of the string, which is comprised of the mass of the string, the masses of the limb tips, and the draw weight of the bow. Since the draw weight of the bow is considered part of the primary bow setup, it is not considered in spine refinement. The type of arrow rest is assumed to be compatible with this style of shooting.

Just buying arrows of proper spine rating and then blithely chopping them to length and mounting the hottest selling tip on the front, will not result in a properly executed shot that will demonstrate a smooth and proper archer’s paradox. Once the arrow shafts, appropriate to the task at hand, are selected and cut to length, the work of fine-tuning for the best archer’s paradox begins. The tip weight should be selected based on two factors alone. First is the best F.O.C. measurement. Next is overall weight. Of the two, F.O.C. is the more important.

When speaking of shot spine, a weak spine means the arrow shaft will flex more, and a strong or stiff spine will result in the arrow shaft flexing less. To improve the arrow flexing profile one or more of the factors mentioned may be altered alone, or in combinations. This process of fine-tuning shot spine will render a well-executed archer’s paradox and consequently a smooth and accurate shot for the finger shooter. High-speed video is really the only way to clearly and accurately see what an arrow is doing as it is being shot. Using this video technology it is easy to see if more flex is needed or less flex is required to get the flexing of the arrow timed just right so the tail end of the arrow passes cleanly around the rest and riser.

Once it is determined if a change in shot spine is needed then, one or more factors can be used to achieve the desired results. To weaken the shot spine, the tip weight can be increased, unless of course, F.O.C. is at maximum. Alternatively, the mass of the nock might be able to be reduced with the same F.O.C. consideration. Or the mass of the string might be able to be reduced. For instance, if string silencers are hanging on the string, they could be replaced with lighter ones, or removed altogether. Additionally, extra serving around peep sights and nock sets can also be decreased or eliminated. Also the limb tips of the bow may be able to be made lighter. This is especially true of compound bows. The object in this process is to have the tail of the arrow accelerating faster relative to the tip of the arrow, resulting in more flexure, which is by definition, weakening the spine.

To stiffen the spine of the shot, the same factors are employed but in an opposite fashion. The idea of stiffening the shot spine is to lighten the tip, or decrease the acceleration of the string relative to the tip of the arrow. Any change to the weight of the tip or nock must again be considered in relation to the F.O.C. measurement. Be also aware, that adding mass to the string or limb tips will also affect the speed of the arrow leaving the bow.

Release Aid Shooters

Not everyone need concern themselves with the subtleties of properly adjusted spine. Except for consideration of minimum safe spine requirements, there are circumstances, which make shot spine obsolete.

If a bow is designed to give a straight nock travel and built to give adequate clearance between the proper arrow rest position and the riser, so the arrow fletching will not hit anything as it passes by; and the rest is of such a configuration that it will not interfere with a straight arrow path; and a release aid is used to pull and loose the arrow; and the bow has been micro-aligned such as with the Bow, then the stiffer the arrow, the better.

The reasoning is straightforward. Given a straight nock travel to a precisely aligned rest and no interference with the arrow flight from the riser or rest, then the flexing of the arrow does nothing but eat up energy that could be going into arrow speed. An arrow need not flex to fly well. In point of fact, an arrow need not flex at all. All it really needs is to be pushed straight and not bumped after it has begun its trip to the target.

NAP QuickFletch "Twister Vanes"

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/x...uickFletch.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/New-Archery-Pr...d_sim_sbs_sg_1

Last week I purchased a package of these vanes to try out. My thinking is that they may work good in a survival kit. You slipped the plastic sleeve, with the vanes attached, over the arrow shaft and then dip the end of the arrow into boiling water to shrink it down tight. It's quick and easy. I bought mine from Gander Mountain for $19.95/6pk, a little expensive but if they work I believe they are worth it. Amazon has them for less money.

Questions:

1. The vanes are shorter than the ones I normally use (4 inch), these are only 2 inch. How does the length of the vanes effect the flight of the arrow?
2. Will the spin created by these "Twister" vanes work well with two-blade arrowheads?

Wtrfwlr - Thank you for the information on the arrow shafts, that's very good information to know and I'm sure will answer many questions from non-archers. Good job!

Glad to help out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pgvoutdoors

NAP QuickFletch "Twister Vanes"

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/x...uickFletch.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/New-Archery-Pr...d_sim_sbs_sg_1

Last week I purchased a package of these vanes to try out. My thinking is that they may work good in a survival kit. You slipped the plastic sleeve, with the vanes attached, over the arrow shaft and then dip the end of the arrow into boiling water to shrink it down tight. It's quick and easy. I bought mine from Gander Mountain for $19.95/6pk, a little expensive but if they work I believe they are worth it. Amazon has them for less money.

Questions:

1. The vanes are shorter than the ones I normally use (4 inch), these are only 2 inch. How does the length of the vanes effect the flight of the arrow?
2. Will the spin created by these "Twister" vanes work well with two-blade arrowheads?

---

These are cool, didn't know about them....thanks.

The previous article is correct in many ways but is somewhat flawed. Arrow spine is important on modern bows as well. I will explain the best I can. The article speaks of nock travel, but fails to describe what it is or that there are 2 different types of nock travel, (vertical and horizontal). With traditional bows there is very minimal vertical nock travel due to the string being anchored on both ends to a fixed point, and a lot horizontal travel, due to the string moving sideways across the tips of your fingers at release.
Recently there has been a lot of focus on horizontal nock travel in the archery industry, when considering compound bows. Without going into too much "tech" stuff, lets just say that even with a release aid there is a lot of horizontal travel on most modern compound bows.
Back to the issue of discussion. The article does a fair job of explaining spine, but fails to discuss why it is truely important, even on compound bows. First consideration is "centershot" this is where the front of the arrow is when the bow is at full draw. The ideal placement is to have it directly in line (left to right) with the path the string will travel when it is released. This will transfer the most energy to the tip of the arrow and have the cleanest flight. Achieving perfect centershot is almost impossible due to the fact that we are human and shoot a little differently every time. A spine that is too stiff will not bend enough and exagerate any error in centershot. With correct spine the arrow will flex before the tip goes into motion and allow some "forgiveness" in the flight. The second consideration for arrow flight is nock height. This in the point where the back of your arrow makes contact with the string. Setting your nock height so that the arrow is perfectly level may also exagetate any inconsistencies in your shooting (grip, anchor point, ect). Setting your nock height about 1/16 - 1/8 inch high will creat some forgiveness by loading the arrow shaft in a bit of a downward direction, during release. This will help create consistency from shot to shot. If your spine is too weak or too stiff, flaws will be exagerated. Using wood to make arrow shafts will be much weaker than modern carbon fiber, or aluminum arrows.
The heavier your point is the more resistance it will have to being placed into motion when you release the string, and it will cause the shaft to bend more (breaking down the spine). The more weight you have up front, the better penetration and flight you will have over distance. but to much weight can kill energy transfer and forgiveness. And honestly arrows that are too stiff fly better than arrows that are too weak.

Those Quickflectch vanes work great on compounds but will be destroyed fairly quick in a stickbow. Feathers are better for traditional style bows because they can lay down when they come into contact with the shelf.

If you do use them on a compound bow they will probably work better than your 4 inch vanes. You may see a slight increase in speed. Remember that the purpose of your vanes is to create drag. this is to keep your arrow shaft directly behind the point. Depending on how you had your arrows fletched before, they may also create more spin which stabilizes the arrow faster.
I do not know how they will work with a 2 blade fixed broadhead. I use slick trick broadheads because they fly exactly like my field points. Most fixed blade broadheads will not fly the same as field points.
Slick Tricks are also the most durable I have found. I have shot them into concrete blocks @310 feet per second with almost no damage.

As already mentioned, the inconsistancy or arrow and/or bow materials found at hand will more or less negate a "proper" broadhead weight.

Anyone who has tuned a new setup will know that even with set tolerances, there is still a trial and error period untill tuned. Considering the the situation these would be used in and god knows what materials at hand when it happens, any weight of broadhead would do. Too many variables for BH weight to make a critical difference.

I'd say grab a couple of 2 blade heads ( like Zwickey or Magnus) and throw them in your BOB.

My 2 cents anyways

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