Why "They" want to move to Wilderness, My answer.

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Originally Posted by Sarge47

I'm trying to figure out why people keep wanting to leave society. I think that bonding together in a strong community solves the problem better.

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Originally Posted by BENESSE

No one I know who is successful at what they do regardless of what that happens to be--student, parent, carpenter, farmer, doctor, etc. and has a wide circle of friends and a rewarding relationship is interested in dropping out and leaving society behind.

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I have tried to solve this riddle for years. I have never understood the desire to improve the quality of ones life by moving to the wilderness.

Lady B's statement gave my a strong clue. I have always assumed they were running "TO" wilderness. I now see that this was a false assumption........In fact they are running from perceived oppression.

The examples Lady B gives are people in control of their life (for the most part). However these same people (Successful) are a perceived extension of the system, the example being the electric utility company and the dream of being "Off-Grid".

It is not that they choose to move to the wilderness. It is that they perceive wilderness as the only way of avoiding the oppression of society. It subconscious flight for survival.

The distinction of running toward a goal vs. running for your life. It has also helped me understand why so few truly even embark on the quest.

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Originally Posted by Sourdough

It is not that they choose to move to the wilderness. It is that they perceive wilderness as the only way of avoiding the oppression of society. It subconscious flight for survival.

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Great insight Sourdough!

Great insight! I have considered moving to wilderness to live at times when I was younger and after deep thought, realized that in every case I would not have been going toward a goal but rather withdrawing from a circumstance that was frustrating me. As I have aged and my health has deteriorated, I came to the realization that living in the wilderness is not practical for me at my age. My compromise has been to move to a small community in the north woods. I have the modern services that I need, while being able to enjoy a primitive enviroment. I really hate big urban areas and love the forested regions around Lake Superior.

Yes, I did not move to my homestead / start living simpler until I changed my mind from get away from it all to great better life that I can always enjoy today and come what may tommorrow.

Thanks for sharing the insite.

Its actually in the same vein as why people do a lot of things, or wish to do things. Its a perception that A will solve B, when B really has nothing to do with A. A good example of this is the world of online gaming, such as World of Warcraft. A lot of people "escape" into it in order to run away from aspects of their life they dislike. The real question needs to be is A something you can do something about or not. Obviously if you can do something about it, you should start taking action. However, if its not something you can do anything about, learning to understand and accept that is the only thing a person can do.

Well I am pretty sure that if I had to, i could be happy in an off grid wilderness situation living by myself, but only in a have to case. First of all, the girls would go into shock within 2 days, and second of all, I really like modern conveniences for everyday life. I like learning survival as a tool that I may need someday, not to live everyday.
I think part of survival is learning to do without when you have to, but not necessarily doing without for your entire life.

I have to agree, JP. The same with alcohol and drugs. It's just an escape. You can either control life or let it control you. I admire folks that do live off grid in the wilderness because they want to. It's a lifestyle they enjoy but have to really wonder about the person that wants to live off grid because tomorrow is going to be the great apocalypse.

The only thing I'd change SD is they are not running FOR their life they are running FROM it.

I'd love to live off grid but to me that means utilizing renewable energy in the home I now have. Not shucking timber in the Northwest Territories to build a cabin with an icebox made from burlap, sawdust, reindeer moss that's 8X6, 10x8, 12X10.

very interesting, I wonder what Ted kuzinsky, Heimo korth, chris mccandless, sylvan hart, dugout dick, miles martin, rat river trapper, etc. ran from. I think they each had or have their own reasons not necessarily running from something in every case.

If somebody wants to try it all I have to say is good luck.

You guys are adding a judgement to the issue. My goal was not to judge, but to understand the motivation.

The only people I have ever known to go off grid, was just tired of the rat race, and probably had the desire to live off the grid to boot. So eventually the day comes that they say to H*ll with it, it's time.
I knew a very successful, very intelligent aeronautical engineer that did that. He seemed to want the challenge as much as getting out of the rat race. He said it was the perfect way to finish his life here on earth.
Now, he was quite wealthy and was able to get solar equipment, and had lot's of the comforts even though he was off grid. He said he was happier than he had ever been, so if done right, I am sure it would be a very pleasurable way to live.
He also said that he was tired of traffic, neighbors, and feeling like he was living by the rules of the man.
But this is a lot different than poor boyin it. That is a lot of work, and a tough life for most, so I think a lot of it is the challenge as much as anything!

You just lost me. I didn't say they were right or wrong other then those that profess the end of times. That's not the case with most that come on here and report they are running off to the wilderness, often with nothing in hand, and living in the wild. I'm not being judgmental because I said they are running from life. That's their motivation. They are trying to escape.

I actaully think a lot of folks see it as a carefree poetic way to live, and really don't think about all of the hard work, isolation, and financial issues that go with off grid living. It is a lot of fun to think about and discuss, and even dream about, but a lot of dreamers fail to see things the way they really are until they are already in a situation and then realize wow, this is a tough life that I wasn't ready for!

I am seeing a distinct difference in personal definitions of "off grid".

Are we speaking of off the utilities and convinineces or are we talking of hiding out with Ted Kaczynski in a shack in Montana?

I think I have a valid answer for that question, (having moved to an urban area (SF Bay area) from a rural area (New Gloucester, ME). People in urban environments tend to be selfish, self centered turds who think that the world revolves around them. There is also a great deal of apathy and entitlement with the "government will save us" attitude. I was brought up to be self sufficient and so I tend to have great distain for these people. There are a few who are awake or awakening to whom I dole out as much information, training and when possible supplies. People want a better life style and they can't get it in an urban environment. Many don't necessarily want to run away to the wilderness as much as they want to run away to a rural or true suburban environment.

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Originally Posted by Sourdough

You guys are adding a judgement to the issue. My goal was not to judge, but to understand the motivation.

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I actually don't mean it in a judgmental way. The motivation can be a desire to escape/run from something that they do not like about their life. That thought process leads different people to different conclusions. Some end in nothing more than a desire for X, some end in more tragically (drugs/alcohol), and some people do succeed (as in they find a place and do escape from some things). The key to remember here is that if it is a desire to escape/run from X, then a person needs to make sure X is not something that will come with them (ie emotional issues). Now, my judgement on the issue is that I believe a lot of people who come in with a very vague question or comment on wanting to get out of society and live in the woods as survival situation are either dreaming or trying to get away from something, again though, that last part is my opinion.

I also to agree with Wildthang that most people have a romanticized concept of living in "off grid" (which, as Kyrat pointed out should be defined to prevent arguements over semantics). I mean even I would love to live like they did in Legends of the Fall. But even then, I have very little real knowledge of what it would take to live even in a small town that is a little isolated, so that idea of living like that isn't the reality of the situation.

Now, I do believe some people do just want to get away like the person Wildthang talked about, but I would think they would come in and ask in a different manner. Probably with more interest in those of you who are living like that. If they really had it in their head to move, I would think they would ask who lives like they want to and then ask direct questions. This part is opinion though.

Escaping once in a while to recharge your batteries and needing to 'running away' for good, are two different things, IMO.
Having had a range of feelings regarding "society" throughout my life one thing became clear; you can run away from others but you can't run away from yourself. Whatever issues you have, you'll be carrying them around wherever you go. If you were unhappy with others, you'll be unhappy all by yourself...eventually.
You are the ground zero of your inner happiness. People and fortunes will come and go, but you're the constant in your life til the day you die. Get comfy with yourself and don't give away the power to anyone/anything else to make you happy.

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Originally Posted by SARKY

I think I have a valid answer for that question, (having moved to an urban area (SF Bay area) from a rural area (New Gloucester, ME). People in urban environments tend to be selfish, self centered turds who think that the world revolves around them. There is also a great deal of apathy and entitlement with the "government will save us" attitude. I was brought up to be self sufficient and so I tend to have great distain for these people. There are a few who are awake or awakening to whom I dole out as much information, training and when possible supplies. People want a better life style and they can't get it in an urban environment. Many don't necessarily want to run away to the wilderness as much as they want to run away to a rural or true suburban environment.

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you're not alone in this assessment.

A huge part of survival is adaptability.
Make the best of where you are, learn to live with it and be happy. Choosing the lesser of two evils still means you have a choice.
You're wasting a lot of time, Sarky, being unhappy in a place you chose to move to. You're not getting that time back, you know.

Miss B, It is not where I am living that is the problem, It IS the other people who choose to be scum in our society especially in the urban environment. Yes I know there are scum everywhere, they just seem to be more concentrated here.

Perfectly said Sourdough!

I've always seen the oppression of the masses; The Tyranny of the greater society.
I've often, more so recently, thought of leaving society for the woods.

Thanks for putting it so eloquently

Well said SD. I'm not in the wilderness, nor do I want to live in it. I love living close to it and enjoy being in it. It's 100 yards away but I have all the modern conveniences.

I want the skills to do it, and I have set up temporary wilderness housing on a few occasions. This summer I intend to improve a few remote camping spots further.

Washing my netherregions in 37 degree seawater is awful, and amazing at the same time. It does make me yearn for a water heater.

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Originally Posted by jcullen

I've always seen the oppression of the masses; The Tyranny of the greater society.

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Seriously? We live in a land where you can travel anywhere you want without having to show papers, work in any job or profession your heart desires, make as little or as much money as you want, carry a weapon, hunt, fish, hike in some of the most beautiful country in the world, run for any office you chose, live your life any way you want, practice any religion you choose or none at all and actually get news that's factual and not state fabricated. That's oppression of the masses? Tyranny of the greater society? Maybe you should try North Korea, China, Zimbabwe, Thailand, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Ethiopia, Turkmenistan or Syria (to name a few). That might put things in perspective. Have you ever been outside the U.S.? America is heaven my friend.

+1 Rick.
Takes some getting out into the world to appreciate what we take for granted at home. Being away myself at the moment makes me count the hours before I return.

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Originally Posted by jcullen24

I've always seen the oppression of the masses; The Tyranny of the greater society.
I've often, more so recently, thought of leaving society for the woods.

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I'm with Rick on this one. What makes you think the woods are the answer? People can find you there as well as anywhere else! True survival is NOT running away from your problems, but taking them "head on" and coming out on top! :cool2:

I think one thing we haven't discussed, is primal instinct. Man has not always lived in a modern society, so could some people still have the primal instinct to basically live like animals?
Things like fight or flight, jealousy, greed, anger are all primal instincts as far as I'm concerned. So again, could some people still have the desire to hunt and gather food, and simply not feel comfortable, or need to live in modern society?
Think about it, as much as we would like to think that we have left our primal ancestors behind, I think a lot of primal instincts still exist within us!

I agree with Sourdough. I can not imagine why any one thinks that going wild is a good choice. Just the amount of STUFF needed to comfortably survive the wild is tremendous. Things like electricity, running water, a septic system, communications, and shelter none of these things are easy to come by in the wilderness. And then what about family? You may not have nieces, nephews, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc... that yo care for but how about friends? Can you just leave them all behind? I for one believe that when something terrible happens the Christian side of people will come out rather than the evil side that takes advantage of peoples misfortune. There are examples of this on the news every time something happens. Tornado destroys town, people band together and help each other rebuild, when earthquakes hit we send millions, hurricane Katrina hit and people were relocated and helped to rebuild.
However, if someone would want to escape the violence of a big city, I can relate, they should not wait for some sort of disaster to force their hand. If living where you do makes life less enjoyable than moving to where you perceive it to be better, well then move now, life is short. As the song goes, regrets I've had a few, but to few to mention. Do it your way!

I would have to say this topic has been covered very well and the only thing I can add is my experience with working with the homeless, by that I mean people that choose to live on the street, some of them without government support of any kind.

Some were mentally ill, but some of them were just damaged, what I would call too sensitive for our harsh world, what we would call damaged goods.
Some of the people I met had been successful at one point in there lives, but stress or loss of love had left permanent scares that none of us can ever see without entering their world.

I bring all this up because maybe a lot of the people who run off to the wild are just too sensitive to live in society, are adversely affected by large crowds and the constant stress of the city.

There are many ways to run away, my brother is a good example, he is very sensitive and easily hurt, he functions well enough in society, but in order to cope he works at camp jobs, constantly away from home for long periods of time.

When he is home his focus is drinking and drugs, this has lead to him spending a small fortune on lawyers so he can remain driving for work, in effect his ultra sensitivity leads him to a life of self destruction.

Life is tough, some make it and some don't, some thrive on stress and some are just too sensitive for this world, if their only way to cope is to leave to the wilds on their own romantic adventure, all the power to them.

Some times all the motivation one needs is just to be able to wake up in the morning to the sound of the wind in the trees instead of the honking of morning traffic.

As some of you have mentioned living in the wild is a hard life, but for some it might be all they can handle emotionally.

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Maybe you should try North Korea, China, Zimbabwe, Thailand, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Ethiopia, Turkmenistan or Syria

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You know, I spent 7 years in the military. I've seen a few of those countries. Guess what, the problems in those countries are that the people are in an urban setting. That tyranny I was talking about was magnified in those countries. I'm successful enough here in this setting, but I do wish I could abandon it all and go thrive in the wilderness. I know it's the responsibilities that I'm talking about. The having to pay the Bills, and the traffic tickets, and the going to the different stores full of people packed in so tightly you can't turn around.

I'm making a list that's beginning to sound like the antithesis of "These are a few of my favorite things" from the sound of music!
We'll call it, these are a few of my hated things!

Traffic tickets
Toll Roads
Over Crowded Grocery Stores! <-- Over crowded period!
Getting up at 04:45 in the morning to go to work.
Electricity Bills! <-- I've thought of this one quite a bit, It doesn't matter how old you are, you'll always have to pay the electricity!
Bills in perpetuity, I hate the idea that till the day we die, we will be paying a bill! We'll have at least one last bill even after we're dead!

Other people's belief in what is right and wrong, Societies morals code! How dare you tell me what's right and wrong if it doesn't affect you?

The most fun I had in my life was in the wilderness. In the Creeks of South Carolina pulling Shrimp, Crab, and Oyster out of those creeks, In the mountain woods of West Virginia, or when I was in the field in the Army.

I know my fantasy is to run from my responsibilities.

As far as our living in a better society than all those other countries? Really? Is our system so much better than other countries? Of course it's better than N. Korea etc. But scratch the surface just a little bit. If you can't pay your bills, you will end up homeless, and the lens you look through wont be so rosy.

I also wonder if those people in those oppressive societies had any wilderness survival skills, would they still be oppressed? How much better off would they be if they abandoned the city with the cities oppressive systems, for the woods or mountains?

thanks for your thoughts on this subject SD

Umm deleted, didn't realize how morbid the article was.
If anyone read it

I think some people get their sense of autonomy snuffed out as the population density thickens. Oppression is a bit strong ...... confining maybe?

JC, you offer some valid points. Yes, I do believe there is a world of difference between our society and the ones I mentioned. It's not all urban either. The rural folks in particular live an existence life at best and in some countries they don't do that. At least here if someone has a problem there are safety nets in place to catch them, if they choose to utilize them. Food pantries/food bank, religious organizations, state and federal agencies and places like Habitat for Humanity, just to name a very few, simply don't exist in those countries I mentioned.

I also enjoy time spent in the woods. I enjoy the quiet, back to nature and all that goes with that. But I sure wouldn't trade it for a life in any other country in the world.

I think that there are some people that just dont like society, and the rules that go with it. Therefore they are happier in the off grid scene, and are willing to deal with the inconveniences to live the life. Yeah it's escaping, or running from society, whatever you want to call it, but who cares.
I wont judge those people, because if they are truly happier off grid, that is cool with me. Not everybody has the ability to deal with the responsibilities of modern life.
I have lived in big cities, and had high pressure jobs, and it's no fun, and I felt like a caged animal. I dont need the off grid life, just living in the country, and having a good job close to home, without tons of pressure has made me very happy. Yeah I have some pressure, but nothing like it used to be.
I lived in Indianapolis and owned a home there for 10 years. I managed projects at the Eli Lilly Company, and was under so much pressure that it was awefull. At that point in my life, I know I would have been happier living out in the woods, but we just keep pressing on.
That kind of life does take a toll on a person, and some people just finally say to H*ll with it, I can't take it anymore! I got close to that point, but I just never give up.
Society has become very difficult to deal with, and I can totally understand when people want to gain a simple way of life.

Wait, wait, wait, hold the phone! You moved from Indiana to Ohio?! You moved FROM Indiana TO Ohio?! I'm shocked. Shocked I tell ya!

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Originally Posted by Rick

Wait, wait, wait, hold the phone! You moved from Indiana to Ohio?! You moved FROM Indiana TO Ohio?! I'm shocked. Shocked I tell ya!

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And I like it here much better. But there are reasons not involving Indiana. I now live 8 miles from work, country roads all the way here, no traffic, and the only reason I go to town is to eat out or buy something I need. The town I go to is small but has everything I need so again, no traffic. The job I have here has very little pressure compared to any job in the big city environment even though it's at a refinery.
My house here is in the country, and I have a beautiful place with only 2 neighbors, one across the road, and the other one about 500 yards to the east. My neighbors never bother us, and never ask for anything.
Little to no crime as well. So I am very happy here because of many factors of life and not just Indy. Have you ever been to Carmel at rush hour.................nuff said! Another factor is that the girls family's are here, so I now have family close by, and that is something I haven't had in years of travelling.
Indy is a nice town, and if I wanted to live in a big city, it would be Indy, but it can't compare to this spot in Ohio because of my personal requirements.

Yeah, I've been to Carmel at rush hour. That's not really a rush hour. It's kind of a "mess of cars for 45 minutes". They are opening 31 so it's non-stop all the way from Indy North to about 266th st. They are putting in overhead round abouts at all the intersections. No more stop and go traffic. It's just go traffic.

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Originally Posted by Rick

Yeah, I've been to Carmel at rush hour. That's not really a rush hour. It's kind of a "mess of cars for 45 minutes". They are opening 31 so it's non-stop all the way from Indy North to about 266th st. They are putting in overhead round abouts at all the intersections. No more stop and go traffic. It's just go traffic.

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Well they sure needed that! I have always thought that Indy had good traffic control with the 465 loop with the exception of Carmel and downtown at rush hour. Even when the cart races are going on, the traffic flows pretty good.
I swear I hated the Carmel rush hour so bad!

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Originally Posted by Rick

Wait, wait, wait, hold the phone! You moved from Indiana to Ohio?! You moved FROM Indiana TO Ohio?! I'm shocked. Shocked I tell ya!

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Welcome to the finer things in life! :winkiss:

Now that right there is funny I don't care who you are. God Bless them little slow drivers in the fast lane down there in New Guinea.

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Originally Posted by Sourdough

I have tried to solve this riddle for years. I have never understood the desire to improve the quality of ones life by moving to the wilderness.

Lady B's statement gave my a strong clue. I have always assumed they were running "TO" wilderness. I now see that this was a false assumption........In fact they are running from perceived oppression.

The examples Lady B gives are people in control of their life (for the most part). However these same people (Successful) are a perceived extension of the system, the example being the electric utility company and the dream of being "Off-Grid".

It is not that they choose to move to the wilderness. It is that they perceive wilderness as the only way of avoiding the oppression of society. It subconscious flight for survival.

The distinction of running toward a goal vs. running for your life. It has also helped me understand why so few truly even embark on the quest.

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I don't think it's wise to make a general assumption as to why people move into the bush. I have to disagree with Benesse's statement that nobody who's successful in life would move into the bush. My partner was working for the Ministry of Forests and I was working for an environmental organisation, and we had (and still have) a great circle of friends in the village. We quit our jobs and left our friends not because we're a couple of losers but because we wanted to live our dream.
Another bush person I know owned a car dealership. Another couple were working in the tourism industry. Somebody else I know was a teacher. None of them are sociopathic weirdos.

For one thing, you'll always be a part of society. Nobody grows up and lives in a vacuum - people who think society stinks also have family and friends that they'll stay in touch with. And bureaucracy will find you in the deepest, darkest woods.

Moving into the bush doesn't automatically mean that whoever does it feels oppressed by society. We certainly didn't. We moved out here because we didn't want to just keep a weekend relationship with wilderness, we wanted to grab the chance of living as closely with the land, its plants and animals as we could, and make a full-time commitment out of it. Simply because our idea of having a good time is to go for a hike, snowshoe or paddle where no other human beings are around, watching animals do their thing, and because we wanted to be more familiar with the bush and what's going on there on a day-to-day basis.
It was still a really hard decision precisely because we did not want to "drop out of society". In a way, that eventually happens to a certain degree though. Over the years, the number of people you can actually relate to tends to dwindle because your day-to-day living experience is just utterly different. There are only so many people out there who still understand what you're actually talking about when you say the woods have been just dead the last three weeks and now it's like 3-4 moose a day. Often, you find yourself holding monologues because all people can say is "wow" and "oh that must be neat" and "really". It's not easy to find people on the same wavelength who enjoy hours of conversation about animal tracks, the movement of game and speculation of what this year's weather pattern will mean for animal activity and cycles.

So far us, our quality of life has improved by moving into the bush in that we're doing the things we want to do, that we're passionate about. Is it perfect? No. But to me, it's as close to perfection as I can get.