.303 Enfield

Attachment 7321

Since I retired last year, I have had the opportunity to go to the Base Firing Range with a couple friends 2-3 times a month. Over the last couple weeks I have met an old gentleman that has amongst other weapons a Korean War era Lee Enfield rifle (.303 caliber ). He has been very generous in introducing me to it, and letting me shoot about 40 -50 rounds through it. I was amazed that the first time I fired a 10 round string with it at 75 yards, I not only was able to keep all shots inside a paper plate target, but learned to cycle the action quite smartly. I have fired it several times since then and I am quite impressed with it. He apparently has had it “forever” and has no intentions of parting with it. I have talked to him a lot about it over coffee, did some reading on the subject and am leaning towards buying one. It seems rugged, fairly simple to work on, and as a “stock” weapon can certainly out shoot my abilities or forseen needs. From my readings and questions, the caliber is more than adequate (not perfect, but good enough), and ammunition seems to be readily available. The size and weight are not an issue since I am not “a bug out” guy . Although I have a military / LEO background, I am not a big fan of the “black rifles”. This is not meant to be a debate on if it is the best, since I have already decided (absent any verifiable negatives) this is will fill a gap in the armory.
My question to the forum is, have any of you had any “extensive” experience with this family of rifles, and are there any quirks that you can share?

Too bad is isn't 1958........
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y13...Photo00021.jpg

Haven't gone this way, but I know a lot of guys have.

Hunter, yer killin me here :) The best price I have seen so far was in the $250 range

LOL, actually if you do the calc for inflation...got that around here some where.....$250 bucks is probably a good deal....
Besides you are the one killing me....I'm playing with Nagants and H&R's right now......one country at a time.....LOL.

As long as you are retired, just buy one,...... you don't have to answer to the proletariat any more.......

Nope, but I do have to answer the the Queen of the castle, but I have learned that asking for forgiveness is easier than asking for permission

Yeah I hear ya....just don't keep them all in the same place....LOL


From the inflation calculator......



Quote>What cost $29.95 in 1958 would cost $223.24 in 2010.< quote


http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

Pretty much all the elder bolt action military riffles will give you the same service and joy........
Mosins can still be had for under $100 if you look hard....

I have used british 303. it was a friend of mines I am going to get one soon. used it one deer season killed two deer.

If you were closer to KY I could hook you up at a reasonable price Pal.

I have 2, both converted to sporters. One as the base for a scout rifle. I have hunted with Enfields many years. I bought mine back when the prices were not much more than Hunter's add. (Of course I paid $29.95 for my first 1911)

My only complaint with the rifle is that if you mount a scope in the conventional position you can not find a comfortable way to carry the rifle. It shifts things around and makes the magazine area the balance point instead of just ahead of the mag as in the stock trim. Of copurse that might also be from taking 5 pounds of extra metal and wood off the forend.

The Enfield is truly a rifle that one can load before leaving the house and know you have plenty of ammo to hunt with without carrying extra rounds jingling in the pockets.

And the smooth action of the Enfield will make you turn your nose up at a Mosin for the rest of time.

The Military channel chose the Enfield as the #3 best combat rifle in history, topped only by the AK and M16. It was in active use for over 100 years and had all the bugs worked out 10 years before WW1 started. Anything they did to it after 1914 was just icing on the cake.

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Originally Posted by kyratshooter

If you were closer to KY I could hook you up at a reasonable price Pal.

I have 2, both converted to sporters. One as the base for a scout rifle. I have hunted with Enfields many years. I bought mine back when the prices were not much more than Hunter's add. (Of course I paid $29.95 for my first 1911)

My only complaint with the rifle is that if you mount a scope in the conventional position you can not find a comfortable way to carry the rifle. It shifts things around and makes the magazine area the balance point instead of just ahead of the mag as in the stock trim. Of copurse that might also be from taking 5 pounds of extra metal and wood off the forend.

The Enfield is truly a rifle that one can load before leaving the house and know you have plenty of ammo to hunt with without carrying extra rounds jingling in the pockets.

And the smooth action of the Enfield will make you turn your nose up at a Mosin for the rest of time.

The Military channel chose the Enfield as the #3 best combat rifle in history, topped only by the AK and M16. It was in active use for over 100 years and had all the bugs worked out 10 years before WW1 started. Anything they did to it after 1914 was just icing on the cake.

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Thanks for the input. I would keep the weapon "stock", without scope (I am a bit rough on equipment and have always found a way to mess them up)or any add ons. The standard sights seem to be a good fit for me. I did fall in love with the smooth action and the quickness of its cycling. I did see that Military channel program and it is impressive that such an old work horse (like the 1911) has stood the test of time and combat.
Again, I do appreciate your first hand input.

I've got one - love it.

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Originally Posted by crashdive123

I've got one - love it.

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From your perspective are there any "quirks", or "tricks " with the way it operates or handles?

I grew up with the Lee Enfield No4. Mk1, excellent accuracy, handling, was my go to rifle until I had a brain freeze and traded it off. :(

I don't have any first hand knowledge, but one of the guys at a local gun shop is in love with them. To hear him tell it, they are the best thing since sliced bread. (Of course....he's never played with a Swiss Schmidt Ruben (sp) K-31) LOL

BTW....you and Hunter need to shoot a K-31, if you ever get the chance.:whistling:

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Originally Posted by Pal334

From your perspective are there any "quirks", or "tricks " with the way it operates or handles?

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None that I've found. I've only put about 120 rounds through it, but have been pleased so far.

That K31 does look nice, but I think I have my heart set of the Enfield. Just seems right, after this many years, I think they have the bugs worked out (not inferrring there are any bugs with the K31)

Pal, you are worrying too much.

130 years of use in combat and sporting venues on every continent. Is considered the smoothist bolt action ever devised.

has been on the winning side in two World Wars
has taken every species of game in Africa
has taken every specis of game in India
has taken every species of game in Australia
has taken every species of game in Canada
has taken every big game species in the U.S.

What more do you want?

Yeah, but is it pretty?

Not worrying at all. Just as with any purchase want to know as much as possible. I think it is as "pretty" as a bulldog :)

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Originally Posted by Pal334

That K31 does look nice, but I think I have my heart set of the Enfield. Just seems right, after this many years, I think they have the bugs worked out (not inferrring there are any bugs with the K31)

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I didn't mean in lieu of....I meant in addition to.

(Mrs. Pal won't mind.....really.(Snicker, snicker))

2d,, It is a good thing you live down yonder. If you lived closer I would anticipate alot of bruising occurring in my household

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Originally Posted by 2dumb2kwit

I don't have any first hand knowledge, but one of the guys at a local gun shop is in love with them. To hear him tell it, they are the best thing since sliced bread. (Of course....he's never played with a Swiss Schmidt Ruben (sp) K-31) LOL

BTW....you and Hunter need to shoot a K-31, if you ever get the chance.:whistling:

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Good grief.....here we go again........LOL

I prefer the no 4 because of the peep sights, but any SMLE will please you.

Mil surplus ammo is not as available as used to be but reloadable boxer primed hunting ammo is easy enough to get, and with a reloading setup, you can make a couple hundred cases go a long way.

BTW it uses .311 instead of .308 bullets.

It is one of the fastest cycling bolt guns ever, and reports from German troops facing a group of British troops using the SMLE was that they thought they were facing machine guns. (belt fed not sub guns shooting pistol calibers.)

While normally reloaded via two 5 round stripper clips, the magazine is removable / replacable, and if you wanted you could not only grab one as a back up but actually carry and change magazines instead of leaving them in place / loading through the top.

They have a somewhat weaker lug / lockup system than mausers, but I have never had problems with them.

The cock on closing is fine with me, as it the safety, although it may take a bit of getting used to. As does the fairly unusual looking stock (from American aesthetic point of view).

The only thing negative I have ever noticed is that the mkV jungle carbines had some of the reciever cut with slots to lighten them and they are reported to have a wandering point of zero because of this. However the only one of those I ever used belonged to a friend and it took deer for both of us for years back in high school. Recoil was a bit more with it than standard ones.

The ishapur ones from india were made with a bit stronger heat treat and can be found chambered in .308, but because they follow the mk 3 pattern, I have not yet bought one because I prefer mk 4 's over them, and .303 is fine for anything you want to do with one in the CONUS short of the largest brown bear, and I suspect with proper bullets I could kill them also.

I love all of the old bolt rifles, the springfields, the enfields, the smles, the mausers the mosin nagants etc.

The only ones I cannot warm up to are the french and itallian ones. Something about them just does not work.

TB, Thanks for the info on the .303's.
I was told the the Jungle Carbines, were never officially called that, but was a term to used as a sales promotion on the surplus market?
FYI, thought it was intresting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee-Enf...gle_Carbine.22

The Enfield has one of the smoothest action for a military rifle. The only problem I see is ammo. It's not all that common any more and it is expensive. But if you really want one .... go for it!

Ya know I don't ever recall hearing mkV's called jungle carbines except in the back of the old magazines from the 60's to be honest and repeated in gun mags and forums since.

The fellow who had the mkV that I knew was an old hill billy from up W. Va. and he called it that, but then again he probably got his out of popular mechanix or some such.

I liked the feel of that old rifle a lot so borrowed it a lot, often "letting" him use my marlin 30 30 or my Remington 788 in .243. He liked them, I liked the mk V, but we never considered trading or anything, just shared.

Later on he switched over (heck I call him Rip, so I'll just use that) well anyway, Rip switched over to muzzle loaders and sold off all his guns. Said it was to get back to his roots, but times were always tough around his place so maybe it was he needed the coin.

He never failed to get his deer (s) with his hawkin's though. Another old fellow collected war between the states weapons of all kinds and let us hang around and taught us a lot about muzzle loading. When my mother found an old .45 cal barrel and lock and some other parts at a yard sale in '73 and bought em up for me it was those two that helped me put together my first percussion lock Kentucky.

My oldest son recently asked me what rifle I would like to have as my new "main" woods rifle and bought it for me. He got me one of those ruger gunsite scout rifles in .308. It reminds me a lot of that old mk V and gets me to rambling on and on about old memories.

Seems the older I get the more I remember the good times gone bye. I wish my kids and everyone could enjoy the older times when we did not have to jump through so many hoops just to go out and shoot tin cans and such.

Anyway thanks for putting up with an old man's memories. and for triggering a few new ones.

XD

The trouble with the good old days is we tend to forget about the bad old days that went with them. It did seem a simpler time, however.

With all of the above duly noted, I have a slightly different question. This concerns the Pattern 14 ("P-14"), or so-called "American Enfield" rifle. Since the late 1990s I have owned one that someone attempted to make into a "dummy" rifle by drilling holes thru the barrel near the chamber. The receiver is totally unaffected.

I have three questions:

First, are P-14 barrels still available at a reasonable price? If so, where?

Second (and possibly more important), are .30-06 barrels from the American M-1917 rifle compatible with said receiver?

Third, if the answer to Question Two is "yes", where can I find one at a reasonable price?

Enquiring minds, and all of that...

-- Nighteyes

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Originally Posted by Daniel Nighteyes

With all of the above duly noted, I have a slightly different question. This concerns the Pattern 14 ("P-14"), or so-called "American Enfield" rifle. Since the late 1990s I have owned one that someone attempted to make into a "dummy" rifle by drilling holes thru the barrel near the chamber. The receiver is totally unaffected.

I have three questions:

First, are P-14 barrels still available at a reasonable price? If so, where?

Second (and possibly more important), are .30-06 barrels from the American M-1917 rifle compatible with said receiver?

Third, if the answer to Question Two is "yes", where can I find one at a reasonable price?

Enquiring minds, and all of that...

-- Nighteyes

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Anyone? Anyone? Buehler? Anyone?

The only LE I have experience with is my No.4 Mk1.

Too many paths to follow, don't even want to think about the Enfield.....of course if a good deal came along.....

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Originally Posted by Daniel Nighteyes

Anyone? Anyone? Buehler? Anyone?

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you should check with numrich arms company. Not saying for sure but should be adaptable save for the extractor.


here's mine in ought six.
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/h...tlee/008-4.jpg

Thanks, bro!

I just looked in my numrich arms book, they have 1917 enfield barrels for 103 dollars and some change. not sure how current it is. Maybe you could also get with a place like E.R.Shaw barrels and get a short chambered barrel and after fit up have it chambered and head spaced.

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Originally Posted by Daniel Nighteyes

With all of the above duly noted, I have a slightly different question. This concerns the Pattern 14 ("P-14"), or so-called "American Enfield" rifle. Since the late 1990s I have owned one that someone attempted to make into a "dummy" rifle by drilling holes thru the barrel near the chamber. The receiver is totally unaffected.

I have three questions:

First, are P-14 barrels still available at a reasonable price? If so, where?

Second (and possibly more important), are .30-06 barrels from the American M-1917 rifle compatible with said receiver?

Third, if the answer to Question Two is "yes", where can I find one at a reasonable price?

Enquiring minds, and all of that...

-- Nighteyes

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Sorry Daniel, I did not see this querry when you first posted.


First, the p14/p17 Enfield is one of the best rifles ever designed. I had one back in the 1980s that had been chopped badly. I reworked it into a Bishop stock, ground the ears off and drilled and tapped it for a scope. I borsighted it a on a brick in the wall of the house across the street and headed to the range. My first shot was on target at 100 yards. I mean dead center, and the following shots were all touching the first. It was by far the most accurate military conversion I have ever owned.

I was forced to sell that rifle and have reqretted it from that day.

As far as I know the barrels for both rifles are interchangable but you may need work on the bolt face and extractor due to the change from rimmed to rimless case heads.

At one time Numrich had barrels available already threaded and ready to install. I am sure Brownells or any of the barrel makers of today would be able to contour and thread the shank properly for the receiver. It is a standard operation any competent gunsmith should be able to accomplish.

The rifles were made by Winchester and Remington with a few from Edystone. The P17 became the basis for all of Remingtons bolt action designs until after WW2.

The answer to question number 3??? Nothing is cheap anymore unless it was made in Russia! The barrel and accompanying work on the P14/17 will cost you more than a brand new Savage Edge, Mossburg 100ATR or Remington 744.

Consider a modification of the existing tube. Ream it out, weld up the holes and install a sleeve, then run a chamber reamer in it to create a 6mm or 7mm/303 wildcat.

I have tried a couple of times to love em but no joy. I shoot mostly cast bulelts out of my old military rifles. The problems I had with the Enfield Mk#4 was that the bore size was all over the place.

My shooting/reloading buddy and I had 4 of them at one time. The bore diameter ranged from .308 to .316. Yes they would shoot 4-6 inch groups at 100 yards but neither one of us is happy with that group size. Other people would state they could get 2 inch groups out of them. We never saw anyone shoot that small of a group. We tried a bunch of different powders, bullet hardness, Etc without any joy.

http://www.public.asu.edu/~roblewis/...IID2a11a4.html

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Nominal barrel dimensions for .303 British rifles are .302" bores and .312" groove diameter, but many wartime rifles have groove diameters as large as .316" [BEN: The biggest I've personally seen was a #4 Fazakerly that slugged out at a whopping .3185" - Yow!]. The flat-based 174-gr. MkVII service bullet has a soft gilding metal jacket and lead core that readily upsets to provide reasonable accuracy, even in worn bores. The stiffer jacketed MkVIIIz boattail bullet upsets less easily and often gives poor accuracy in rifles with barrel throats eroded from excessive use of cordite ammunition.

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I did have a Mark 1 .22 trainer that was as accurate as any .22 I have had.

The actions were smooth, the length of pull could be altered by changing the length of the butt stock.

Our Springfields 03/A3 and the 98 Mausers using the issued iron sights, would get groups around 1-1/2 inches at the same range, using properly sized cast bullets.

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Originally Posted by Pal334

Nope, but I do have to answer the the Queen of the castle, but I have learned that asking for forgiveness is easier than asking for permission

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Unless one tries to do it once too often. That's why my German Shepherd resides in a two-story, air-conditioned dog house complete with cable and internet...

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Originally Posted by Rick

Yeah, but is it pretty?

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Pretty is as pretty does. (Spoken by one who owns/loves Savage bolt-guns.)

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Originally Posted by Beans

I have tried a couple of times to love em but no joy. I shoot mostly cast bulelts out of my old military rifles. The problems I had with the Enfield Mk#4 was that the bore size was all over the place.

My shooting/reloading buddy and I had 4 of them at one time. The bore diameter ranged from .308 to .316. Yes they would shoot 4-6 inch groups at 100 yards but neither one of us is happy with that group size. Other people would state they could get 2 inch groups out of them. We never saw anyone shoot that small of a group. We tried a bunch of different powders, bullet hardness, Etc without any joy.

http://www.public.asu.edu/~roblewis/...IID2a11a4.html



I did have a Mark 1 .22 trainer that was as accurate as any .22 I have had.

The actions were smooth, the length of pull could be altered by changing the length of the butt stock.

Our Springfields 03/A3 and the 98 Mausers using the issued iron sights, would get groups around 1-1/2 inches at the same range, using properly sized cast bullets.

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P14/17 Enfields are not the same as the MK??? rifles. The P Enfields are Mauser based designs with front locking lugs and the ability to stand high preasure loads. The design was intended to chamber a .276 caliber cartridge and WW1 broke out and ended the intent to change both service rifle and caliber. The Brits had to stick with the old models and the old caliber, but adopted the new design in .303 as a standby.


When the U.S. entered the war we needed service rifles also and changed the caliber to 30-06 for our service round.

Remington and others were already making the rifles for the Brits so it was a quick production switch. I always felt the P17 Enfield was a better rifle than the Springfield. It was a P17 Enfield that was issued to Alvan York and used in his CMH action.

Few people realize we also issured 7.62x54 Mosin Nagant rifles to our troops. They were being produced by several U.S. makers and the production diverted to our troops.

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Originally Posted by kyratshooter

When the U.S. entered the war we needed service rifles also and changed the caliber to 30-06 for our service round.

Remington and others were already making the rifles for the Brits so it was a quick production switch. I always felt the P17 Enfield was a better rifle than the Springfield. It was a P17 Enfield that was issued to Alvan York and used in his CMH action.

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Actually, the records show that the United States issued more M-1917 rifles (aka "American Enfields") to our troops than M-1903 (Springfield) rifles during WWI. As the saying goes, "What's up with THAT?"