M1 Garand or Bushmaster Carbon 15 9mm Carbine?
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M1 Garand or Bushmaster Carbon 15 9mm Carbine?
For what purpose?
Home defense and target shooting/practice.
knowing for what is always a good thing
Or if TSHTF anarchy style. Unlikely, but still good to be prepared. I'm not worried about fully automatic capability, that's usually a waste of ammo.
Semi auto is always good though. Or a burst option, that makes sure the target is dead.
Good marksmanship ensures a dead target.
The Bushmaster is 5.7 lbs, the M-1 about 9.5. M-1 is alot longer, but can "reach out" better than the 9mm. Ammo is alot heavier for the M-1. I'm not a huge fan of 9mm rifles, but they do have their purpose.
How do they compare in accuracy? I can most likely manage the weight if the M1 is more accurate. By "reach out," I assume you mean that it is more accurate a longer distances.
Don't know about the bushmaster. M-1 is effective to about 500 yards, but I've heard stories of alot further accuracy.
Hmm. I'll do a little research and look at some reviews on the Bushmaster. I've also discovered that I have to have a FFL to buy the Bushmaster, so I'll probably go with the M1. Or get a FFL. Not too hard to do in Indiana.
Neither one would mark a good home defense weapon, IMHO. They are not designed for close quarter combat.
800+ yards on the Garand with armor piercing.
I agree with Rick on that. 12 gauge, hand gun are great for home defense. Type of ammo is important too. You don't want to hit unitended targets through the walls. And ... kind of goes without saying ... training and practice.
You may also want to consider the Phase Plasma Rifle in the 40 Watt Range (he says with an Austrian accent) :D
What would you use Rick? Hand gun? I've been looking at obtaining one of these in the next year or two.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...07&isFirearm=Y
or this
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...06&isFirearm=Y
I'm still looking for a rifle, as they're not always right up on you when you notice them, or sometimes you may even already know that they're coming. Plus, I wouldn't mind bringing a rifle to the ol' fallback area.
Oh, everything I have, I will train and practice with until mastery. I learned that lesson after my machete incident.
Personally, I would not use either for home defense. The M1 Garand in 3006 will go through, oh about three walls before it stops. Gungho shooters have shot their own family in a few cases.
The 9mm, gonna leave bullets all over the place. Maybe in combat, maybe if you decide to live in a hostile area.
Handguns are nice, but you have the kiddy safety factor to take into consideration.
Then there is the good old 12 guage shotgun. You can use slugs for large game and targets, buckshot for woods protection, birdshot for little critters and I'd go with a number 4 shot for home protection.
Whoeve you shoot, if you don't kill them first thing, they'll die on the table. That's alot of pellets to be getting out.
Well, that's if they make it past the dogs.
But then, M1 Garand is on my wish list. Oneday.
I posted this on another thread:
Well......for home defense:
The Lupara is a short barreled side by side (SXS), 12 or 16 ga, and usually open choked. Most are hammer guns. You will have to look long and hard to find a true Lupara not equipped with a sling. The term Lupara is Italian and literally means "wolf shot" and it has been used in Sicily for generations to protect flocks of sheep. You might also remember them as the instrument of choice in the movie The Godfather. We are not talking about the construction of an illegal weapon. A Lupara can be made to conform to ATF guidelines and current laws regarding barrel and overall length.
You will be hard pressed, however, to find a better home defense weapon than the Lupara. It is light, manueverable and if the sound of two rounds of buckshot passing by an intruder doesn't intimidate him, a SXS can be reloaded very quickly.
I totally agree with you FVR, the good old 12 gauge is the way to go.....especially if you not that great of a shot under pressure. I have a Benelli Supernova that will look after all my needs.I even took it pheasant hunting last fall.
As a rifle i opted for a Remingtom 750 Woodmaster. It's light, semi-auto and can take down any animal that Canada has to offer.
Howdah........................
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...nkV/PK0954.jpg
Make sure you use both hands.
Howdah you shoot that thang?
Exactly! That's a lupara, sort of. But the right design. That little guy can make them duck for cover. Only difference is I can reload a bit quicker.:rolleyes:
A 12 guage is an excellent home defense weapon and hunting tool. Here's the neat thing about a 12 guage too, if you have more than one home invader in some God-forsaken anarchic shtf scenario, I bet you don't have to shoot more than one. Even before they see their partner go down, the noise that puppy makes is going to send them running. Actually, that's why I like pump actions, even the noise of the cha-chuck when you lock in a round gets folks a little quivery in the britches. There's plenty of reasonably priced good quality shotguns out there Kemp.
For a big brawny guy, yeah. But what about the little Mrs.? Not as easy for her to swing that 12 guage hither and yon not to mention the issue of recoil (okay, you can control some of that with the load). Guys always seem to think cannons but think about slinging a 26" or 28" barrel down the hallway, when you've just been roused from a solid sleep, in the dark, and maneuvering around the entertainment center. Now think about the Mrs. doing it when you're gone.
A smaller version of the same would be just as easy to handle as a hand gun and still pack the whollop of a shotgun.
I do agree, Remy. It takes more than one tool to make a toolbox.
So many weapons, so little time. As has been previously stated the type of round is an important choice in your home defense weapon. Where the 12 gauge may be a bit cumbersome for a smaller person, that can be rectified with something like glaser safety slugs in different calibers. They do a pretty convincing job in a home CQB situation. Here's a Wiki link on some info. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaser_Safety_Slug I would only recommend these at close range (my house is small).
A shotgun is in my arsenal/gear inventory list. The list is type of weapon/tool - model owned(If I don't own one it will be left blank, If I don't know the manufacturer then it is automatically determined to be generic by me) - and finally the intended purpose.
The Kemp Arsenal/gear inventory
Shotgun - Home defense/Hunting/Target
Rifle - Long range home defense/target
Handgun - Close quarters home defense/personal carry/target
Machete - Cold Steel Magnum Khukri Model - Survival tool/garden tool/imporvised weapon
Knife - Frost Cutlery ?(has a finger ring/subhilt with G10 scales) Generic Skinner, Generic hunter, generic pocket knives - see machete for intended uses, on a smaller and more delicate scale of uses for the knives.
As of right now, I currently do not own any guns. I was never allowed to own them as a child, nor did my parents own any. I have shot many guns though. The first gun I ever shot was my uncles ten gauge. My best friend has guns, and that's what is used when hunting. It just doesn't feel right, though, when the tool used to get the job done wasn't your own. Springfield Armory, which manufactures M1 Garands, has another rifle, the SOCOM 16. It has a 16.25" barrel, is just over three feet in overall length, weighs just over nine pounds, is scope ready, and might be my rifle of choice. It's modeled after the M1A, just made shorter for the purpose of close quarters combat. Its caliber is 7.62 by 51mm, which is said to be the same as .308 Win. Is that true? Furthermore, I'd like to hear more recommendations as far as shotguns are concerned. I've only shot 10 gauge and 12 gauge.
http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=22
Wow Kemp... so many things too comment on.....
Here are some of my thoughts and opinions about some of the above comments and what your looking for.
#1 FVR and others mentioned regarding "home defense" that you definitely do not want a high-powered rifle (M1 Garand/30.06) or the Bushmaster for this task... in the event you start throwin lead around there is no way to keep safe other people in rooms adjacent, or your neighbors when the bullet exits your house and enters theirs- way too powerful.. My choice for "in home" self defense would be: Handgun- .45 ACP... its powerful, and has a big heavy bullet that A) will take out your intruder with one hit, and B) is alot less likely to penetrate multiple walls. The 12/16/20 gauge shotgun would also be an excellent choice because it has multiple uses besides self defense......
Oh, and if i can get a pistol permit in liberal NY, you can definitely get one in your state...
#2 even though you have shot guns with others over the years, i cant stress enough that you should take a handgun/gun safety course.... for a pistol permit its probably required, and trust me even someone experienced can learn from the instructor if he/she does a good job....
#3 while they are certainly cool (bushmaster, socom etc etc) tactical military rifles may not be your best bet to start out with.....
Nothing to stop you from owning one, and this is again just my opinion, but I just think alot of people buy these type things- because they believe it will give them "some kind of edge" in the event of being attacked.
I own the following firearms... and i reccomend them highly...
Handguns: Detonics 45ACP semi-auto pistol, Ruger .357 mag revolver.
Rifle- WW2 surplus .30 M1 carbine... semi-auto, 15 round magazines... (not a Garand... this is more like a pistol round, and only 110 grain round nose bullets)
Shotgun: 12 gauge pump (mine happens to be an older Ithaca brand)..
You also need to plan very carefully, especially if there are kids around where your going to keep these weapons, also where you can get to them etc.
Worst thing to happen would to be killed by an intruder with your own weapon....
Ok well hope some of this was useful....
Art
Kemporer - Your comment that it just didn't feel right caught my attention. Firearms are a great deal like hiking boots with respect to feel. They have to fit and they have to be comfortable.
Everyone has a different comfort level based on their frame, hand size, arm reach, etc. Before you invest a lot of cash in something you may not like, try it out. Pop Guns in Indy has an indoor range that allows you to use handgun calibers in both handgun and rifle. You can even rent handguns to see how they feel to you when you use them. You might also have a range a little closer to home.
If I remember correctly, you said you were getting ready to start college(?). If that's not right, I'm sorry. You may have to be 21 to use the range but you can talk to them if you are interested.
You can also talk to a local gunsmith and/or reputable gun dealer about what's right for you. They should be happy to work with you and let you try several to see how they fit and feel.
Here's a link to Pop Guns:
http://www.popguns.com/rangedetails.htm
Here's a link to shooting ranges in Indiana:
http://www.nrahq.org/shootingrange/f...l.asp?State=IN
et. al. - That link will also take you to a national site for shooting ranges. Just click on Find a Local Range in the upper left corner.
There is a lot to choosing the right weapon for YOU but you definitely want one that is comfortable to carry and use, has a record of reliability, will accomplish what you bought it for and is a tool you have some faith in (not over confidence. There's a difference).
Hope that helps.
Kemp: Your comments about it not feeling right caught my eye too. Great advice on trying out different guns to make sure that it is the right one for you. I personnaly own over 20 weapons. My wife has taken up shooting recently. We go out just about every week. Whereas I'm very comfortable with each and every one in the gun safe, she is only comfortable with 1 or 2. Because something looks good, and may be a decent weapon it may not be right for you.
I agree here but would go with 870 (just my choice)Quote:
Originally Posted by remy
as for long range... the Remington 700 chambered in Winchester .300 magnum is what I have, it has the same amount of muzzle velocity (knock down power) at 1000 yrds. as a 44 magnum at point blank range. I can kill anything on the planet with this puppy. I also have an H&K USP .40 which is a sweet pistol, and my issued S&W .40, the wife likes the 870 and the H&K, I do all long range shooting with the .300 mag. Other than my flinters that covers it in my home. In home defense remember not to go to the intruder but let the intruder come to you and then BLAM! Going to an intruder means they have a better probability of taking the weapon from you and turning it on you. Stats from our department.
Try EVERYTHING, if you can't use it don't buy it. I am very comfortable with my Win Defender with 6 or seven in the mag, safety off, nothing in the barrel. Combo is your choice mine is #7 1/2 first 2 then #3 buck handgun Beretta 45 Federal Personal Defense load, one in the tube, safety on. Decent flashlight, cell phone. S&W 38 revolver for the wife, EK edge & 1/2, dog in the basement, motion lights all around, dusk to dawn on outbuilding, no kids or close neighbors, don't need anything except iron sighted 30-30 loaded, safety off none in the tube, mainly for coyotes. I think I am pretty well covered. Still have Black Talons but not in anything now. All others locked in safe.
I use a combination of ambush and a 12 ga. Winchester Mod. 13 pump with #4 shot. No punch thru of walls.
I've had my Winchester so long I trust it to function.
I just want to add a couple of thoughts, there have been a lot of solid opinions and advice offered. Number 1, go with what you're comfortable with and then, if you're not trained, get trained and get any other person in your home who might have to use it trained.
Number 2, I agree wholeheartedly with the two shotguns that Remy suggested. Short barreled, easy to swing and very effective, although I'd use bigger shot, nothing smaller than #2. The Mossberg is usually very well priced as well and they have a good reputation. I'm not a Mossberg salesman I'm just saying. Beo's advice about the home invader coming to you versus you trying to seek them out is paramount. Don't buy any weapon to give to someone else to kill you with.
Number 3,in terms of home defense, I'm of a mind that the individual perceives that his/her life is in imminent danger, the threat is immediate and respose is absolutely necessary. Otherwise, there is really no point in having this conversation, I shudder at "gun happy" people and I've used firearms most of my life. Recoil is irrelevant, if the "Mrs." is knocked on her azz by the shotgun's recoil, the bad guy is wall decor. Personally, I have no problem with that. The bonus with the shotguns that Remy suggested is, we're talking...most likely..about very close quarters combat here. You don't have to be a terribly good shot for this to work, point and squeeze the trigger.
If I had a women I would put a "Crimson Trace" Laser on her personal firearm, If your in someone Else's house and you are to stupid to know what that red beam means as it races across the floor, up your leg, well you were not a necessary part of the gene pool.
...and within the next few seconds no longer a contributor to the gene pool and the rest of us should look upon that as a blessing...Quote:
Originally Posted by hopeak
I like that Hopeak... real nice.
More than likely I'm at home in the evenings and if someone came in the wife would have the shotgun and wait at the top of the steps, anyone comes around the corner to come up and KABLAM wall pizza, if its me she knows I'll let her know. I would probably go back to sleep and let her handle it... lol... jk I would probably grab my Emersom CQC folder (6 inch blade great knife) and head down to carve someone up, snooping and sneaking through the house. Sounds a little wrong coming from a cop but hey that's just me and then I get to put some skills to the test, plus most people hate and are afraid of being cut long deep and continuously (that spelled right, who cares you get the picture)
I'm not a big fan of grabbin a knife and showing up at a gunfight. Nightstand gun is a Ruger GP100 .357 with Glaser Safety Slugs. My daily personal carry is a SW .40. One shotgun in the house (Mossburg 500) and another in a cache in the back inside my workshop (an old Sears & Roebuck bolt action 12 ga. with pistol grip and very short barrel.
(jotting down note)
Avoid red lights at Hopeak's place. Check crashdive's workshop for bolt action.
Sure the house is pitch dark, I sneak down the stairs and slide into the dinning room as the perp known as Johnny Butterbutt is slipping the silver into a bag ever so quietly, insert knife at base of skull and thrust upward while pulling head back by the forehead... go back to stairs and forget to tell wife cause I'm cleaning off my knife and Blam! I'm talking to Saint Peter... oh crap didn't work. I actually wouldn't use a knife, and if my big azz dog ain't barking then i'm going to bottom of steps and light his azz up with my H&K USP .40.
Just got this visual --- BLAM!!!! .... Honey? Is that you?
Look, man. The dude was carrying a knife. Did you hear a click? Cool, there's a red dot on you.