How did we lose the fundamental right to be left alone?

Hello all,
I have a couple of things I wanted to throw out there and get some feedback from you folks.
I have been been pretty ornery lately and here is why...
Everywhere I go it seems someone wants to know who I am, where I'm going, what I made, where did I make it, where did I spend that money, what do I drive, our names and where we live, is my canoe registered, how many and what type guns do I have, is my home safe? Where do I work? etc. etc. etc. It could be nosy busy bodies at the store etc. or in most cases government institutions and corporate goons. I'm tired of it.
My wife gave birth to our son here in Ak and I didn't finish cutting the cord before papers were put in front of me "requiring" me to fill out our little guys application for a SSN #. What!? I told them no thanks, he doesn't need one at this time. The nurse insisted he did to qualify for his PFD (permanent fund dividend read oil money) and to get registered with the feds, to be able to travel etc. etc. she said I needed to do this. I refused again and told her to buzz off and let me enjoy my family in peace. She said she will notate my refusal and mentioned the PFD again to which I replied "we don't partake of the PFD" which we don't. She seemed pretty surprised at that.
My point being is where does it stop? My canoe has to be registered every two years because I have a 5HP motor on it to get up the river (I can't paddle a load of gear up against the current. Ridiculus! What if we are just in the middle of nowhere for a couple of years? I come back to town and have to dodge the troopers for fear of getting ticketed?
I needed to rant on this as I'm pretty sure I'm done jumping through hoops just to exist on this planet. I can't imagine we are here on this beautiful orb, to experience being human for an just an instant and that entails being tagged like cattle and our comings and goings documented to make sure we are paying our fare share. Is this what it's all about? I don't think so.
It seems the government is hell bent on control and people who are not in compliance or who want to be self reliant are being forced into the insanity that is the majority's reality. Poisoned food, decaying moral values, lack of purpose, pollution, mind numbing tv, heavy pharmacuticals dispensed like candy, living in constant media/gov't perpetuated fear and perpetual debt seem to be all the rage... not for us.
I find myself increasingly upset by what I hear or read and it gets my dander up a bit too much. I think I'm going to center myself and focus on living and raising my family up here for a bit and enjoy life without needing some ones permission to do so.

Thoughts?

I think you're thinking too much about it. The money I pay for my canoe permits goes toward toward fisheries management in my state. I don't mind that at all. In fact, I don't mind paying taxes on stuff because I know that I'm helping fund the military, better schools, better roads, our library, etc. I'm for all of those things.

And why would you use the term corporate goons just because you don't know them. I was a corporate manager for quite a while. I never considered myself a goon and still don't.

Personally, I like insanity that is the majority's reality. Poisoned food, decaying moral values, lack of purpose, pollution, mind numbing tv, heavy pharmacuticals dispensed like candy, living in constant media/gov't perpetuated fear and perpetual debt that seems to be all the rage. I love life in the fast lane. Maybe you should get a hobby.

in my opinion we lost that right when profit became more important than service. It's the gray areas. For example when a DNR goon has you dump your traps and they look at every one hoping to find a trap that a tag fell had fell off. Then if they are lucky enough to find one you get a ticket for fifty bucks. It is the law don't you know. there are lots of examples, that's one that came to mind.

Aw Heck! Started off with a wonderful morning telling my grandsons good morning. Then you had to remind me what awaits me outside the door. Most of those that I deal with cant find their way with a flashlight and a roadmap. First its "lets make a rule" then its "lets charge a fee, then its "lets double that". Oh well its just what we have become and I guess its my fault too for not standing up and saying not ever. But on the brighter side I smell a change coming. Have a great day. mwp

DNR goon? You guys are too much. First a mountrekker goon and now a randyt goon. I almost snorted my coffee.

You can not lose a fundamental right. It is fundamental. You can however choose to give it away either temporarily or permanently. Many do this today and have through time for increased benefits in standards of living, security, peace of mind, access to resources, and pure entertainment. Because life without these things is constantly and unrelentingly hard. So we all have to make the decision how much our our rights we are going to suspend for the benefits or percieved benefits that the larger society offers us.

You can engage in activities that put your rights at risk, but I do not see their forfeiture in these cases as a 'loss' but as a result of an intentional action. The most common example of this is true crime or crime against persons. In this example a person commits or attempts to commit a crime against another by trying to take their right to property, life, health, etc.. and if caught can forfeit their own rights to the same degree.

In the example of the child at the hospital being 'strongly encouraged' to get the number and start his career in the 'system'... this goes back to my first argument. You are in a hospital, where you are recieving advanced medical care derived from the system that asks as part of its 'rules' for registration and participation in that system. So the implied choice, the bribe, again is the benefits versus your rights.

If a person chooses to keep or reaffirm their rights, they can not reasonably expect to continue to be a part of that society and enjoy its benefits.

LOL, you akes for thoughts and I haven't been able to let it go this morning! ;) Happier thoughts to all!

The rights you talk about have NEVER been in places, even in May of 1607, when Jamestown was first landed on....the rights you say you had started to be regulated. Go up to 1783, many documents ratified in the USA.... along with the right of the USA Gov't to tax and fee us.

Even if you go off the grid fully, the items you bought or traded for, somewhere along the line have been taxed, licensed or duty paid on them, by someone, somewhere.

In looking at the Bill of Rights and the Constitution and although they were both written with strong states rights in mind, there is NO right to Freedom from Gov't being in your pocket and in your life.

As Rick said, many of the license funds many of the very nature areas we enjoy as outdoorsmen and women. The taxes I mind are the ones that are meant to PUNISH, such as vice taxes...smokes, booze etc.... excise taxes just because something is taboo in some societies like guns, ammo, fishing, camping and hunting equipment.

I honestly find many loopholes in so called freedom squashing laws and regs and exploit them fully. I live as free as I possibly can, running on the edge of going over to the dark side with just a mis-step or wandering accross that fine edge line of the regs and rules.

Dont know if this fits in here but I had heard that the IRS had a form to tax people for trade and barter items and services. Does anyone have any idea if this is true or not? . And how long has this been in place? Thanks mwp

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Originally Posted by MidWestMat

...You are in a hospital, where you are recieving advanced medical care derived from the system that asks as part of its 'rules' for registration and participation in that system. So the implied choice, the bribe, again is the benefits versus your rights.

If a person chooses to keep or reaffirm their rights, they can not reasonably expect to continue to be a part of that society and enjoy its benefits.

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What rights are you giving up by getting a SSN?

I would say "Privacy" when you get a SSN..... w/o there is almost ZERO reference to you.

Mountaintrekker I hear your pain. Living is a hassle- no doubt about it. Funny thing....where I live nobody ever asks me a damned question. I am always wanting to share my exploits but nobody cares...nobody ever wants to know what I am doing. I've thought about writing a book, but since nobody wants to hear about my exploits or my thoughts in person- why would they buy a book about them?

How did we lose the fundamental right to be left alone?

The rights you talk about have NEVER been in places, even in May of 1607, when Jamestown was first landed on....the rights you say you had started to be regulated. Go up to 1783, many documents ratified in the USA.... along with the right of the USA Gov't to tax and fee us. Fundamental rights are intrinsic to the thinking human and do not require the recognition of a governmental body to exist. They are yours in a natural state as granted by God.


Originally Posted by MidWestMat
...You are in a hospital, where you are recieving advanced medical care derived from the system that asks as part of its 'rules' for registration and participation in that system. So the implied choice, the bribe, again is the benefits versus your rights.

What rights are you giving up by getting a SSN? Certainly privacy as stated, however there is also the facet of signing on to the social contract that governs your society. This social contract includes many relinquishments in full or in part of the rights of the individual members of the society's members.

mwp - barter items are no different than fiat income. They are still considered income and you must report and file taxes on it. If you don't you are guilty of income tax evasion.

http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html

Note that I am not declaring myself 'for' anarchy. This is such a fundamental discussion that should be held and covers issues that exist in every society from the most simple to the most complex. Whether it be the right to self determination which we abridge by submitting ourselves to a tribal chief elder etc.. Or more complex issues like the modern dilemna of 'terrorism' where rights to privacy, free travel, health (see torture), etc are challenged daily. How much of these rights we choose to abridge for protection from those who would do us harm is an issue wrangled daily across the globe as peoples and governments struggle to find a tolerable balance.

We can all rail against the loss of freedoms and rights that we suffer in our given society, not just those of us who live in the US but across the world. In the end we must decide if we are going to live within that 'social contract' or outside of it. We can choose to be part of the discussion within the 'social contract' it, to fight for the balance on the whichever side of the bar we feel led. Or, we can choose to exist outside the 'social contract' and completely ignore it. But this will and does put us at war with the society and we should not expect to be treated any differently than that.

Hmm, mebbe this discussion presses to closely the political boundaries. I will shut up now afore Rick smacks me.

I guess my take on it is you can "choose" to abide by as many rules and regulations as you want or do not want.

Both will have repercussions, good and bad, depending on how you look at it.
all in all, I do believe that WE in this country have a whole lot more "rights" than a whole lot of other places and societies do.

We can even spout about it with out being stoned.

I "choose" to play be the rules (mostly), complain about what I feel is unjust, unfair, etc and VOTE!

I "choose" to be as happy as possible, but reserve the "right" to complain.........
But I can Choose.

Many want the advantages without the responsibility that comes with it.

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Originally Posted by Rick

Many want the advantages without the responsibility that comes with it.

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Yep, the benefits of society without its strictures. Doesn't work that way.

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Originally Posted by hunter63

I "choose" to play be the rules (mostly), complain about what I feel is unjust, unfair, etc and VOTE!

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And we have a citizen. ;)

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Originally Posted by Mountaintrekker

My wife gave birth to our son here in Ak and I didn't finish cutting the cord before papers were put in front of me "requiring" me to fill out our little guys application for a SSN #. What!? I told them no thanks, he doesn't need one at this time. The nurse insisted he did to qualify for his PFD (permanent fund dividend read oil money) and to get registered with the feds, to be able to travel etc. etc. she said I needed to do this. I refused again and told her to buzz off and let me enjoy my family in peace. She said she will notate my refusal and mentioned the PFD again to which I replied "we don't partake of the PFD" which we don't. She seemed pretty surprised at that.
Thoughts?

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Mountaintrekker, in general I understand, relate, and sympathize with your position. However, I want you to think about one thing.

Why make your son pay for your political beliefs?.... He is entitled to the Alaskan PFD money. That money could be set aside for him until he may want it for college, trade-school, travel, his own homestead, etc...

I believe, you should let him decide what to do with it. If he's like you and decides he doesn't want oil money- then he can choose what to do with all the money he's saved in 18 years- he could give it to an environmental clean-up operation, or give it to whatever cause he wants...or hell he could even use it to start a fire in a survival situation. But the point I am making is- its his, not yours.

The reason, this means alot to me is, I grew up with alot of "non-traditional" and "anti-government" people and there children. I alot of my friends hold alot of hatred and resentment towards their Dad's due to feeling alienatated and isolated from the rest of society. I agree- you don't want to raise your son "in-society", but you at least want to expose him to it enough that he knows what its like.... just my opinion.

Mat.... one must believe in a god before those rights can come from a god. I am just tellin ya, folks figured out long ago, way back in the 1400's when Rick was just a weeeeee lad that the PEOPLE need structure and control as masses.

I just hate being asked for my phone number and zip code at checkout. I have actually been told they cannot process my checkout without the information.

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Originally Posted by roar-k

I just hate being asked for my phone number and zip code at checkout. I have actually been told they cannot process my checkout without the information.

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So give them one. There is one local store that asks for phone numbers. I always look up at their ad on the front window and give them their own number. So far, nobody has questioned it (although I think it qualifies me for the employee discount)

I just tell stores that asks for my phone number that I don't give out that information. If they refuse to process the transaction, I take my business elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by crashdive123

So give them one. There is one local store that asks for phone numbers. I always look up at their ad on the front window and give them their own number. So far, nobody has questioned it (although I think it qualifies me for the employee discount)

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thats awesome... I either lie or tell them that I won't give them the info. I'm gonna have to start using old faithful, 867-5309, whenever asked.

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Originally Posted by OhioGrizzLapp

Mat.... one must believe in a god before those rights can come from a god.
One does not have to believe in gravity for Newton's apple to bonk em in the head, ergo...
I am just tellin ya, folks figured out long ago, way back in the 1400's when Rick was just a weeeeee lad that the PEOPLE need structure and control as masses.
Sad but true that many people seem to lack the capacity for self governance that freedom requires.

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Just my two cents yet again, and I already said I was gonna be quite so I better practice more eh?

I'm still trying to figure out how I missed the 1500s. A hundred years. Gone. Poof, just like that. Sad.

wasn't that part of the dark ages? You were probably napping. Thats why it was the dark ages, you weren't involved...

Oh, yeah. Thanks. Dark Ages. That's gotta be it.

What annoys me more than the stuff above is the invasion of privacy. I had it out with my college not so long ago when the alumni association decided to put all alum info online. It wasn't something you opted into. It was something you had to opt out of. You could 'go online and find your old schoolmates'. Well I poked around and not only could you find your schoolmates, you could find out their phone numbers, their addresses, where they worked...It was absolutely horrifying. Some of the oldest people on there, graduated in the 40's had listed addresses in nursing homes! And the school just didn't get it. They were also going to publish a book with the same info. I had to threaten them with legal action to keep my info out of that. And I still check. I would like nothing better than to sue their asses. My own employer can't give out that info.

The online thing is never ending. I'm not sure why medical people think having records online is a good thing. Not that I care about someone reading my last colostomy report but hello, the internet is not secure...

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Originally Posted by LowKey

.......but hello, the internet is not secure...

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Oh sure. Next thing you'll be telling me that everything you read is not true.

It is true. Half of it anyway. You get to figure out which half.

Why do you want to sue their donkeys?

I've got the whole privacy thing beat. I stole my own identity and created a psydo me. He looks, talks and acts just like me. So far, no one has caught on. Who knows? I may not even be me right now.

Cuz the donkeys work in the Alumni Association.

Rick, did you have to steal your own identity cuz no one else would want it?
:)

Hey, bub, my identity is in high demand, thank you very much. If it gets any more popular I'm thinking about issuing an IPO.

Reminds me of a joke:

A guy walks up to me and says "Hey, you know it takes more energy to frown than it does to smile?"
I said "You know it takes more energy to tell me that than it does to leave me the hell alone?"

just thought I'd throw that in there...

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Originally Posted by your_comforting_company

Reminds me of a joke:

A guy walks up to me and says "Hey, you know it takes more energy to frown than it does to smile?"
I said "You know it takes more energy to tell me that than it does to leave me the hell alone?"

just thought I'd throw that in there...

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Amen to that!

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Originally Posted by DOGMAN

Mountaintrekker I hear your pain. Living is a hassle- no doubt about it. Funny thing....where I live nobody ever asks me a damned question. I am always wanting to share my exploits but nobody cares...nobody ever wants to know what I am doing. I've thought about writing a book, but since nobody wants to hear about my exploits or my thoughts in person- why would they buy a book about them?

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I hear ya Brother!
If we do live a little free-er then were called "Backwards",but it makes me laugh that so many want to move here.

It's not so much the growing lack of rights and privacy we are seeing in this country that bothers me as it is the growing trend of acceptance of such by the people. With the advent of the internet people have an easy way to vent their frustrations verbally. Unfortunately, that is only adding to the problem, as Americans are losing their spines and gaining in their mouths. As long as we can verbally vent our frustrations there will be no real action or change for the better.

What I'm saying is this country used to walk the walk, now we just talk the talk, and pat each other on the back for doing so. We say one thing, but in reality we do another. We've become reliant on lying to ourselves and others to make ourselves feel better. I guess there must be something in the back of our heads that tells us as long as we can sound like americans we'll continue to be americans. But, there's a big difference between sounding like an american and being one, the fact is, being one will land you in prison or dead these days.

Big business and big government have been slowly chipping away at our backbones since this country was conceived, it's like the wool has been pulled over our eyes, sad thing is, that wool came from our own backsides. LOL!

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