First Cow tan...

And so far I'm not happy.
really knifed up. The fella I got it from only wants a piece of rawhide for a drum head. He paid $30 for the hide.. the processor told him that was the going price.
I personally wouldn't give $5 for a hide that was that cut up. I can't see any tannery, industrial or otherwise, paying that much for a hide that would have to be cut up for scraps. I doubt there is a square foot anywhere on the hide without a knife mark on it.

When I got the hide it probably weighed 60lbs or more.. took two men to lift the cooler (hide and ice) and set it in the back of the truck. After initial scraping, that is, removal of the fat and meat, I bet I reduced the weight by half. That's right! I completely filled a 5 gallon bucket with meat and fat, hauled that off, and half filled it again! Most of the meat was from the rib area.. Isn't that supposed to be some of the best stuff?? beef tips and rice anyone?
The more animals I tan and the deeper into primitive skills I get, the more I realize humankind's wasteful ways. The question in the forefront of my mind is "Why are we so wasteful?"

The flesh side is covered in sinew. I guess cows have more need of "fly twitch" muscles and have evolved such muscular structures to keep pests at bay.

It's a black angus hide, so I expected the skin to have black pigments in it. Much to my amazement, the skin is pure white underneath. I'm going to tan it with black walnut, so It will be very dark brown, almost black.

One thing it has going for it.. I only bucked it for 24 hours and most of the hair and epidermis just sloughed off. Where a deer is only maybe 1/3 the size at best, deer have about 4x as much hair. A deer will half-fill up a 5 gallon bucket with it's winter coat, but this cow barely filled a 1gallon plant pot.. wierd!

The thing I like least about this project... It's still summertime... The flies come from miles to feast on the fleshy-greasy-meaty-nasty treats (oxymoron?). Blowflies, blackflies, biting horseflies... Where the heck do they all come from? At least they are more attracted to this stinky mass of flesh than they are me, but the idea is really disgusting.

Come on cold weather!! I gots some hides to tan!

I'd take pictures, but unless you guys have a puke bucket handy, you don't want to see them... I'll snap a few once it's all clean and pretty.

Time to go back to the beam and see just how gross I can start my day!

... I could have sworn there were more posts to this thread.. Pictures too.. What happened??? Was the skin still to gross to post? Hope I didn't break any rules.. I apologize if I did, I certainly didn't mean to!

anyhow.. since I did the cow, I got the fever to do some deerskin, so I thawed one out yesterday, and just as an example of the time and labor difference in a skin that was taken off properly, and one that wasnt...
It took me 18 hours across 3 days to scrape the cow to my standards.
It took me an hour and a half to scrape a whole deer to those same standards. The deerskin was brought by my BIL and had a couple knife marks in it, but they were mostly on the neck and legs. I cut off the leg parts and I'm just going to make due with the neck knifings. Other than the bulletholes this skin is pretty much flawless in the main body. Got it in the wood ashes late yesterday evening, so it should be ready to grain by the this evening.

Repost the pics? I missed them,and no,I won't be needing a puke bucket.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by your_comforting_company

... I could have sworn there were more posts to this thread.. Pictures too.. What happened??? Was the skin still to gross to post? Hope I didn't break any rules.. I apologize if I did, I certainly didn't mean to!

anyhow.. since I did the cow, I got the fever to do some deerskin, so I thawed one out yesterday, and just as an example of the time and labor difference in a skin that was taken off properly, and one that wasnt...
It took me 18 hours across 3 days to scrape the cow to my standards.
It took me an hour and a half to scrape a whole deer to those same standards. The deerskin was brought by my BIL and had a couple knife marks in it, but they were mostly on the neck and legs. I cut off the leg parts and I'm just going to make due with the neck knifings. Other than the bulletholes this skin is pretty much flawless in the main body. Got it in the wood ashes late yesterday evening, so it should be ready to grain by the this evening.

---

Never saw them. I'm guessing you hit the "Preview Post" button rather than the "Submit Reply" button. Don't worry - it happens as you get older - don't ask me how I know.:o

A few folks had replied to my second post, encouraging me not to give up. I distinctly remember oldsoldier saying his son tried a cow and wished me well on "a worthwhile endeavor". Maybe the posts got lost in transit to the new server.. anyhow, I'll give a little update and repost the pics.

edit: oh and RWC had asked questions about the thickness..

Cow: thickest part about half an inch, thinnest about 1/8"
deer: thickest part about 1/4", thinnest you can nearly read the paper through.
vs: The thinnest part of cow is about the same as the thickest part of deer.

It wound up taking about 18 hours to scrape the cow over 3 days. Once I got it clean enough, I snapped a few pictures. It is really cut up and disappointing, but I should get some nice small pieces out of it.
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...e/DSCN5004.jpg
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...e/DSCN5006.jpg
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...e/DSCN5011.jpg

This is the grain side. It rolls beautifully.
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...e/DSCN5014.jpg

and the grain just glistens in the sun. Really a beautiful hide on this side.
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...e/DSCN5017.jpg
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...e/DSCN5019.jpg

Just for size comparison
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...e/DSCN5021.jpg

All said-and-done, I do not regret taking on this project. Once the meat and fat were gone, so was most of the bad smell. I hauled off one and a half 5-gallon buckets of nasty stuff. The hide went from weighing 60+ lbs, to about 25-30lbs. It took two grown men to get it into the back of the truck when I picked it up.. now one man can handle it like a heavy blanket.
Anyhow, I bucked it twice to make sure I flushed the goo out of it really well, and after a second scraping on the flesh side to get all the connective tissues and blood vessels, ALL the bad smell was gone and it had that familiar "fresh" deer smell. I guess all skin, at the core, smells the same? wierd.. but that smell set of some synapses in my brain and I began craving a deerskin to do.. took one out of the freezer, wrapped in a black trash bag, and set it in the sun to thaw. I love the smell of fresh skin, as strange as that might sound.

Would I consider doing another cow hide? Well, it would have to be in MUCH better shape than this one. As much as I hate to be picky, It's a lot of work, and when they are skinned so poorly, it's a lot of extra work. Provided I got hold of a well skinned hide, I would do another cow, though I think I would prefer a calf. Cows are HUGE!

and just for comparison, The cow took 3 days and 18 hours to scrape. Once the deerhide thawed out yesterday, I fleshed it deeply and thoroughly in an hour and a half. The cow had a bucket and a half of "nasty" that had to come off, while the well-skinned deerskin barely had a handful.

Some of this cow is going to be rawhide for the fella that bought it. He wants to make a drum-head and said that If I processed it for him, I could have what was left of the hide. Some will be tanned with black walnut, some my normal bark-tan, a few small pieces for rawhide for myself, and I'm tempted to try to braintan a small thin piece just to see if I can do it.

Nothing was deleted so I'm not certain what might have happened other than Crash's suggestion.

In any case, great post and great job on the cow hide!!

Thanks for the re-post YCC. Regardless of how cut and marred up the hide is, it looks like you will have a lot of material to do things with.

After generous rinsing:
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...e/DSCN5039.jpg

and the slightly mis-shapen drum head. It's been racked for a few days now, will snap a pic of the rawhide state (still mostly white since it's so thick) before I turn it over to the new owner.
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...e/DSCN5043.jpg

I used an old dartboard as the pattern as it was 18". Once stretched in the frame, it was very close to 20" which is about 5" extra all the way around for stringing to the drum and clamping with a ring. I hope the fella will take some pictures for me of the completed drum, to share with you guys.
This piece was so small I could have probably used my squirrel frame, but I wasn't sure if the wood would hold under the tension of the drying rawhide so I elected to use some scrap OSB. It is all twisted out of shape now, but the drum head is nice and flat so that's all that really matters!

Great job, looks great!

Never done any kind of veg tan, but have read a bit about it. Won't it take years to veg tan a hide that thick.

My understanding, Ted, is that it could take up to nine months using plants that have larger tannin molecules, such as oak bark, while a quebracho extract tan could be done in as little as a few weeks. I'm currently attempting to research the molecule size of black walnut tannins, versus live oak, versus laurel oak. (trying to use local plants)
I know that brains, being an amino acid (yep Omega3) is a very large polar molecule and could require soaking for days to get good penetration. The longest it took me to do a deerhide was 60 days, approximately 1/4th as thick as the cow, so just guessing a hide 4x as thick, with appropriate attention to the liquor concentration, should take about 240 days (I hope!) but most likely it will take at least 6 months, according to the research I have found.
I certainly HOPE it doesn't take years.. I'm not that patient!

Do the suspension holes tend to tear or enlarge as the hide dries?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by your_comforting_company

This piece was so small I could have probably used my squirrel frame, but I wasn't sure if the wood would hold under the tension of the drying rawhide so I elected to use some scrap OSB. It is all twisted out of shape now, but the drum head is nice and flat so that's all that really matters!

---

It's good that you used something between the hide and the OSB, when drying it will suck up stuff from the board if it touches.

I have a "wood grained" raw deer hide, from drying on a piece of plywood, kinda cool, but was unexpected?

Good job on giving everyone a good idea what has to go into doing this stuff.

Helps to have a big yard so as to be away from people when you do it, LOL

Rick, think of a hide as a sponge.. like those little toys you soak in water and they grow. When it's wet, all the space between the skin fibers is taken up by the dihydrogen monoxide, causing it to swell in the thickness direction. As it dries, the fibers lay flatter and get closer together. The weave of the fibers keep it from coming apart.
To answer the question, as the hide dries, the fibers get closer together and stronger. The only time I've had suspension holes pop out was when working over them with a staker and near the edge, which takes a lot of pressure. This picture shows a deerskin being staked, the frame is made of 2x4s so there's 3.5" of stretch to reach the back of the frame, and then you see it is sticking past the back of the frame another 5 or 6".
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...100_5788-1.jpg

On rawhide the holes tend to get slightly smaller and really only tear if you do a lot of tightening, where the cordage abrades the edge of the hole.
Wet expands and stretches; dry shrinks and gets stiff. The idea is to get a lot of tension on it while it's wet so it will stretch out and lay flat, and as it dries the tension on the perimeter keeps it from thickening back out the way skin naturally would. It's kinda like the drying does some automatic stretching for me. The frame should be pretty heavy duty. I've seen some frames online that were destroyed by drying rawhide. A well made frame is mandatory! (sorry that was so long-winded, but I know you like to understand the how's and why's)

Hunter.. I have a pretty small yard.. maybe that's why I don't have many friends!
Nah, other than the hair which I compost (it helps hold water in the soil) I keep the nasty stuff hauled off.
A wood grain-hide sounds kinda cool.. I might try that with a piece!

Thanks for lookin gang!

So the drying occurs more in the thickness than in the diameter? If you make an 18 inch diameter hide for a drum then I'm sure you have some algorithm that says what the wet hide needs to be to dry to 18 inches but if I read you correctly it won't be a lot over 18 inches when wet. But it will be a lot thinner and tougher once dried?

That's counter-intuitive to me. I would have thought the drying would have occurred more or less in 3D. Thanks, that's pretty cool stuff.

At least in my experience, that has been the case.

As with most natural arts, there is no set algorithm (to my knowledge) and you just have to get a "feel" for it.
The 18" drum head actually stretched to 20.5" in the frame. The tension on the cordage keeps it that size and prevents "fluffing" in the thickness direction.. essentially like pulling a pillow flat, versus fluffing it up.
The fibers realign in different directions than it would naturally occur on the animal. normally it is thick and supple, where this makes it thinner and tighter.
The frame stretching is used to make a different kind of leather altogether, so it doesn't apply to the rawhide, but it was an example to show just how much pressure it can take. The drying and re-alignment do take place in 3d, just a much thinner third dimension. Maybe that makes sense.
While wet and stretching it on the OSB frame, it was about 1/4" thick, and after it dried, it was only about 1/8" or maybe a little less, but still held it's 20" diameter. The bulk of the water comes out in the thickness direction when framed like this. If not in a frame, it would have shrunk in all 3 dimensions.
It really is some cool stuff. If you ever want to try it, I'm glad to offer any advice I can.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YCC

Maybe that makes sense.

---

Perfect sense!!! Thanks. I've never done anything with hides before but I sure do enjoy the stuff you post. That's pretty amazing to me. Those pants looked like they were professionally made and I'm sure they were soft as silk while this drum head will be hard as wood.

My son had a buddy that made them from scratch. Did all the work from natural materials like you are doing. He cut individual slats to make the drum much like making a barrel. When he was done it was so skilled that it looked like one piece of wood. He was a really weird cat but one gifted wood worker and crazy smart when it came to laying out the angles for those drums. I think I do a pretty good job with wood but I was just amazed at what he did with it. He took some measurements, did some calculations and built his jigs in one evening. It would have taken me a couple of weeks to complete the jigs. He lived in a bus and that's where his shop was too. That will give you an idea of how much room he had.

How are you going to make the body of the drum?

The rawhide piece was for the fella who gave me the skin. He is going to use a really old wooden beer keg. it's not technically a drum, but a dumbull.
http://blogs.chron.com/leonhale/2007/06/ << third article.
http://thelibrary.springfield.missou...weet/fa76k.htm

And you are completely right. They are two totally different products. I would compare the rawhide to kevlar lol, versus velvet or chamois for the buckskin pants.

Even in the frame the drum head had a nice resonance to it. He is supposed to call me when he's got it all mounted and dried again (you have to damp it back to get the edges to fold down) and I'll snap a few pics for you.

I'd love to see how those jigs were made. I was going to take a log and just burn the core out of it, kinda like a dugout canoe.. So many projects, so much to learn, and so little time.. I really want to learn to make a few primitive musical instruments, like a flute and drum. Projects for the future!!

Seriously.. It's impossible to get bored at my house!

That is so cool!!! I've never heard of that before. That's got to be a lot of fun. Hmmmm.

excuse me YCC...is website "practical primitive" yours?...looks very interesting.

God Bless

Lee

No Sir, but it is very educational, and I liked Mr. Starnater's quote, so I linked it up. I get a newsletter from them once a month, with suggested books, skill of the month (this month shows how to make a paracord sling), and some other neat stuff.

I'm not affiliated with them, but I do enjoy their site!

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