http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=12191168
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Sadly, probably not enough.
Not around here. What would we do with Utah anyway? (just kidding)
Around here if a piece of land doesn't have a McMansion on it, it's considered an eyesore.
<sigh>
Is that article about closing the lands to wheeled and powered vehicles while still open to hikers and/or hunters on foot? Or closing it completely, as in no access? There are times and places for ATVs and other times and other places for an unobtrusive hike through the ecosystem. I'm not quite sure the article is about Utah owning the land. It sounds like a usage issue.
meh. people don't even want to do their hiking on foot anymore.
I can certainly understand the people who can't, just getting off a bad knee injury myself.
It's the ones who won't that I don't get.
i'm with you, more or less, but i'm pretty gimpy myself [12 years of slow recovery from serious knee injury], and i'd still rather hike in a place not all cut up by OHV tracks.
in due fairness, i wouldn't mind seeing off-roaders with plenty of designated off-road trails for riding too, but my expectation would be that they wouldn't all be content to ride trails too well established, and the formation of such trails is the natural product of wheeled vehicle travel.
I was sorta sidestepping that, not knowing what the avid ATV usage numbers were here.
The wheels do tend to tear up the vegetation etc. Not to mention, if you are really there to see the scenery, you have to stop once in a while and shut them off.
as i see it; that wheeled vehicle travel causes significant disruption of soil and ground-cover or wild and mostly wild areas is beyond debate. that ATV fans need places to exercise their rights to get sideways on their toys is beyond debate, so i feel that the two places need to be kept, to at least some extent separate, in order to preserve both.
it seems to me that i've seen such a system in place in parks/forestry lands, where some areas are closed to OHV [and even bicycle] travel, and some areas are open.
i'd like to hear from some of the off-roaders, to see the range of thier thoughts on the matter. i hope the transparency of my own isn't a put off.
Utah has a bunch of land dedicated to wheeled traffic. Most of it is out in the desert. Anything high is generally (with a few exceptions) already labeled as wilderness and off limits to wheeled traffic. Although I would rather see more walk only areas, Utah should decide, not the feds.
Being from the east I have never been exposed to the concept of "public land" until I traveled west a couple of years back. Even on "public land" here in the east I must do this and I can not do that and I have to park right here and I can't build a fire unless it is a designated area.
Being able to drive 30 minutes outside Pheonix and shoot a rifle in any direction I desired was a new experience. No one called the police because on one was insight.
We are talking deep desert here. A day hike requires a 20 mule team with a water cart.
They intend to "preserve" the land all right. Perserve it for what? The people? Of course, we will preserve it for the use of the people by keeping everyone out of the area.
It is simply a bunch of government officials and clerks perpetuating their jobs.
And guess what? Signs like these mean "Hikers Only", not "Hikers Only except for you 'cause you're all special". Or..."Hikers Only except you and your crap making machine that you're riding". Or...."Hikers Only except you and your bike/ATV 'cause we ran out of room on the sign to give you special permission". It means (drum roll please) HIKERS ONLY!
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2519/...0010738cf4.jpg
So, Rick...are you trying to tell us that sign means hikers only? Well, thanks for clearing it up. that right there is how he got to be Minister of Science people. He earned it, no doubt, he earned it...
After stepping around tons of horse poo and dodging bikers on Hiker's Only trails I thought I'd post a public service since there appear to be a large number of folks out there that weren't aware that the sign meant HIKERS ONLY!
An ATV is far more than a toy in my part of Maine. I understand plenty of people use them as toys but for me it is a form of transportation, like my truck. I like to hike also and I do quite a bit of it on the weekends but there are many places I like to spend time that you cant get to in a car, you'd think twice in your truck and you'd never make the trip in a weekend on foot.
If you dont live or play in big woods, it may be hard to appreciate the work a wheeler can get done. I've dragged several deer out on mine. I dont hunt with it but it is so much better than dragging a deer for a few miles when your hunting alone. The beaver pond I like to set up on for duck is a several hour hike from the nearest place you can get a truck to but a 20 minute ride on my ATV.
I dont ride it as a way to enjoy the outdoors as much as I use it as a tool because I want to enjoy the outdoors. I think that the amount of damage done to the land by a ATV can be controlled quite a bit by the rider. I dont buy overly aggressive tires, dont spin on the hills and stay on the trails when there are trails. I can tread very lightly on the land.
There are strong feelings on both sides of this debate up here and I respect the people who are against them as well. I've had bad experiences as a property owner but I've kept my land open to them.
Population density is the real problem. ATV's should be allowed, people just should not be allowed to breed.
So.....would that have been your advice to your mom 50+ years ago?
Hey, camp. When I worked outside I ran a 70 for a while. It was an articulated plow with a little bucket on the front. Anywhooo, that rascal had liquid filled tires and I could drive over the nicest grass and leave hardly a trace that I had been there. Obviously, it wasn't built for speed but do any of the ATVs run liquid in the tires where marring the ground is a problem?
Fives years worth of blogs that will change your thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
http://survivalacres.com/wordpress/
Here's what else is a real problem:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan Survivalist
Too much traffic on the streets, all sorts of wheeled contraptions on the pavement interfering with pedestrians--bicycles, electric and push scooters, skate boards, in line skates and baby strollers.
Wilderness trails are the last refuge left to those who wish to enjoy some piece and quiet and commune with nature while getting around on their own two legs? I thought you of all people AS, would support that.
Is all this talk about getting back to basics and the way things used to be just jive?
No thanks. That's just more of the same stuff mankind has been dealing with since day 1. People starve to death today. They always have. Does population play into that? Only in terms of numbers. If a crop failed in 910, 60 people died. If a crop fails today 600 die or 6000 or 60,000 (depending on how large the crop is).
The truth is, we are not any different than any other animal or plant on the planet. Our sole purpose for being here is to replicate the specie. That, of course, is at our biological core. We're pretty successful at it but there are a lot of life forms more successful than us. Mosquitoes, flies and just about any other insect beats us hands down. Rabbits are pretty good at multiplying, too. I'm not sure about their other math skills.
People are the problem. I hate the weekend warriors that bring their 4 wheeler to the widerness to drive around in circles for fun. They are tools for me. Most times I hike in and out but when I have a load its another story. The biggest problem I see with ATV's are the yahoes that cart cases of beer deep into the woods and leave their garbage out there. Blaming an inadiment object for what the person does with it is misplaced. Too many people and not enough for everybody has always been the problem. It is that simple and going to get worse. Getting back to basics is not my first choice. It is a survival strategy. There are not enough resources for all to do that either. I was raised in a wilderness setting so communing with nature for me does not inspire the same sense of awe in me. Going to Las Vegas blows me away! You get used to seeing trees, mountains, glaciers and wild life. It's no big deal for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by BENESSE
AS - I agree with you but for a different reason. If 1000 people came out there and spent their time and left leaving only footprints it would be another matter. I'm pretty certain where I travel sees a whole lot more folks than what you have to content with. There are places I go that folks understand what nature is about and even though a lot of folks have been through there all you see are their footprints. There are other places I go that I end up carting out as much trash as my pack will hold.
Those folks are the problem. All it takes is one person to toss a beer bottle in the water or leave their crap dumped in a fire pit and it looks like 1000 people were there.
Well OK AS, I'll concede--people are the problem ultimately. I guess without them, all those ATVs would just sit quietly abandoned and therefore wouldn't interfere in my peaceful hikes.
I knew we didn't disagree. :)
I didn't think we were talking about ATVs as tools. They are that. They can be downright handy sometimes. I thought it was about taking these machines on a 'nature trail'.
It's when the tools ride the ATVs......
We all have different reasons for being interested in wilderness survival. It is a good excuse to buy more Coleman lanterns, is it not? The reasons don't have to be valid for others just yourself. I believe the purpose of life is to develop your soul. I stand with those that would like to see more survival related posts. I have no more interest in other peoples politics or religion than they have in mine. It should be our common interest in wilderness survival that joins us to this forum not human compassion or any other philosphy you subscribe to. You are the adminstrator with the authority to steer the conversation. Wilderness survival might be of interest?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
I seem to be in a bad mood today. I need to step away from this infernal machine and do some things outside in the real world.
Wow. Not sure where that came from.
We have areas where there are different rules for different things down here. Big Cypress was supposed to be open to ORV use. They now restrict it but use is fair.
Where I went last weekend, I can't ride my quad. But, you can run a street legal vehicle off road or a UTV or swamp buggy. I don't know how prolific swamp buggies are where your from. But, down here they are probably the most predominant ride in the woods.
But, you can run a hopped up $100,000.00 buggie. But, I can't run my quad?
There is spots where buggies are needed. Here is one of my favorite places. With a very small buggy. With a quad your going to float through.
The blue trail at Bear Island will leave your arse for weeks if you mess up. LOL
Had a friend that was stuck for two weeks on the trail in his jacked up Samaria. He finally got drug out by two buggies chained together. It took him two weeks to get out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbO19A3ojwI
OK. I don't live in CA so you can relax, and hear me out. Almost...'cause I live in NYC. This here is the torture test of Western humanity for all the reasons you know, and a few you don't. We get it from all sides but we continue to live here the way mountain goats live on cliffs and bring up their young.
It's a tough place to maintain your sanity in, unless you can get away once in a while and get in touch with God's creation. Just you and nature. Nothing to remind you that it's the 21st century...for all you know it could be the 12th. Time stands still in nature and it helps you connect to something greater than yourself. Sort of like a house of worship.
And just like we wouldn't play loud music, litter, or bring a six pack into a church, why would we want to do the equivalent in nature? Can't we all just respect and protect the one place that transcends time, race, religion and politics and leave it be for all of us to enjoy?
Just came back from a walk in the woods to do just that. Agree with all that you said with one exception. Music can be uplifting or relaxing wherever you are. It is nice to leave the world behind.Quote:
Originally Posted by BENESSE
listening to music you can enjoy in a comfortable setting; yes. listening to the musical choices of others whether you like it or not; hit and miss. :D
Absolutely. But it's subjective. Someone loves rap, I detest it. I love Mozart, others might hate him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan Survivalist
Nature though, transcends the subjective. It is what it is. It has been there way before any of us, and if we're lucky, it will continue to be there long after we're gone.
Nature raise above everything that divides us. It's a safe, neutral place and if we can only keep it that way we'll always have a refuge--a soft place to fall when we need it most.
i listen to a fair selection of music my lady can't stand, so i have no choice but to keep it to myself :D
still, every now and then i have to blast something obnoxious just to keep her from falling into complacency.
There are two things we have in common. :clap::clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by BENESSE
Don't forget skiing in Utah, FM!
What kind of art is Mozart?
It's native from Mozambique.
That's why I show up here. You learn something every day!
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