Keltec SU-16CA or SU-16C - Which should I buy?

I have decided that my next firearms purchase is going to be one of Keltec's SU-series folding rifles, in .223. But I can't decide whether I want the SU16CA, or the SU-16C.

Originally I was leaning towards the SU-16CA, pictured below:

http://guncentral.net/Pictures/Rifles/su16CA.jpg

This is how it folds (although this picture is actually of a stock SU-16, note the crappier sight):

http://www.keepandshare.com/userpics...-16a_rifle.jpg

My reasoning for choosing the SU-16CA, was three-fold:
1. I believe it is legal in more areas (California in particular).
2. I like the ability to store extra magazines in the stock (either two 10-round mags, or one 20- or 30-round mag).
3. I originally thought it could fold more compactly than the SU-16C.

Now I am rethinking my choice, and giving the SU-16C serious consideration. Here it is:

http://hammerbackguns.com/images/su16_C-kel-Tech.jpg

The only real difference (as far as I know) between the C and the CA, is the stock on the back. The SU-16C comes with a stock that can fold in two ways: It can fold at the hand grip, and be fired while folded, OR it can be folded at the receiver just like the SU-16CA. Thus, one of my reasons for choosing the CA (that it could fold more compactly) was wrong.

Another reason I am reconsidering my choice, is that (unlike the SUB 2000) the CA cannot fold with a magazine loaded. To deploy it from folded position, you must unfold it, pull a magazine, load it, and charge it. I do not like the extra step of having to insert a magazine.

With the SU-16C, there is the option of folding it with a magazine loaded, although it can't fold as compactly that way. If I want to fold it as compactly as possible, it would be in the same boat as the SU-16CA... except that it has no magazine storage in the stock. If I chose not to fold it as compactly, obviously I would have magazine "storage" in the magazine well of the weapon.

To summarize: Both rifles can fold up compactly, but one has no ammo storage in its compact folded mode. How important a factor would you view that?

One rifle has the option of folding less compactly, but still capable of being fired from that less-compact folded state. HOw important a factor would you view that?

Also, I am wondering if a CA really offers any legality advantage. Is California's law a possession law, or simply a purchase law? In other words, I don't live in California, and can legally purchase either gun. If I buy a C, and carry it into California, would it be illegal for me to possess it? Or, since I've already legally acquired it, is it then legal for me to possess in California?

Lastly, I'm interested if anyone has any opinions about the quality of these two different stocks, as compared to each other. Is one any more durable than the other?

Thanks in advance for your inputs.

Some things are a non-issue SGT. On board mag storage for instance. Are you limiting yoursef to the ammo stored on board in the stock and mag well? If so it is an issue. If you have on a bandolier of 15 mags or even three mags, it is a nonissue.

My personal opinion is that I would rather have the instant response capability of a folded weapon, capable of firing immidiately with a mag in the well than have a weapon 2" shorter that I had to assemble to fire. I want to be able to get a couple of shots off as I move to first cover and unfold the stock and not be completely helpless through assembly time.

That is simply my personal opinion after having lived through a couple of ambushes "back in the day". Brings a tear to my eye and the memory of the Top yelling "shut up, load up, get back to back", as he walked down the line of trucks.

You will want the unit folded while in the vehicle, which is were you will also need instant response.

You are the one that has to live with the decision. Personally I like the little Kel-tec sub-2000. Love to have one with the hicapacity Baretta/Glock/Sig mags now available. It would be a great toy.

I have an additional question? Will you be wearing oven mitts while shooting this unit from the prone bipod supported position? That exposed barrel is going to hurt someone! That is something that may look cool but is totally unreailistic.

I guess I'm a little confused as to which is which. So I didn't vote.
But if option pictured second can be fired when folded, I assuming a smaller cap mag, That's what I would pick.

Mag storage in the stock, cool, but not an issue, mag storage in loaded position, more cool.
IMHO

Sgt - Remy had one but I don't know which one and I can't find a surviving post with the information. Why do you have a requirement for "instant on"? If you're in that kind of situation wouldn't you be "at the ready"? I wouldn't think you'd have the need that often to warrant picking a weapon based on that criteria. If you do then fine. That's just my thoughts.

OK, the old guys that are no longer capable of doing a combat roll while loading a mag and dodging full auto fire have spoken!

This is why we buy Mosins and carry 1911s. We are too old to waste our time shooting anything twice.

They can still do it but now they have to carry two empty pouches. One for the inhaler and one for the glasses so they can see what they're doing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kyratshooter

OK, the old guys that are no longer capable of doing a combat roll while loading a mag and dodging full auto fire have spoken!

This is why we buy Mosins and carry 1911s. We are too old to waste our time shooting anything twice.

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Or chase anything..........just fall down and die,... is good.

This is my personal opinion only.

I wouldn't buy either. I would either buy an AK47 with a side folding stock or a Car15. These are both proven weapons and there is one in every gun cabinet of America. Parts are everywhere. Parts availability, resale value and some one who knows how to work on the Keltec all makes me choose one of the others.

I am not saying that the Keltec is not a good gun. I am saying for about the same money you get so much more including a plethora of aftermarket parts and add ons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by klickitat

This is my personal opinion only.

I wouldn't buy either. I would either buy an AK47 with a side folding stock or a Car15. These are both proven weapons and there is one in every gun cabinet of America. Parts are everywhere. Parts availability, resale value and some one who knows how to work on the Keltec all makes me choose one of the others.

I am not saying that the Keltec is not a good gun. I am saying for about the same money you get so much more including a plethora of aftermarket parts and add ons.

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Ditto............

You can pick up a Kel Tec for 5 bills new. Where can you find a Car15 for that? I haven't seen one for under a grand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rick

You can pick up a Kel Tec for 5 bills new. Where can you find a Car15 for that? I haven't seen one for under a grand.

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Brand new Olympic Arms for $600. You can build one for $550. Let me know if you need help. I have a gun trading website here in Washington and one of our sponsors sells Oly Arms.

I had to go look. I'm never seen one that low. Is that a wholesale price? The MSRP on the cheapest one is over $700. I know that's not the selling price but ........

"...sometimes a 2x4". Proven means a lot. Do you want to be a survival test subject?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kyratshooter

Some things are a non-issue SGT. On board mag storage for instance. Are you limiting yoursef to the ammo stored on board in the stock and mag well? If so it is an issue. If you have on a bandolier of 15 mags or even three mags, it is a nonissue.

My personal opinion is that I would rather have the instant response capability of a folded weapon, capable of firing immidiately with a mag in the well than have a weapon 2" shorter that I had to assemble to fire. I want to be able to get a couple of shots off as I move to first cover and unfold the stock and not be completely helpless through assembly time.

You will want the unit folded while in the vehicle, which is were you will also need instant response.

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Excellent points. You may have single-handedly made up my mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kyratshooter

Personally I like the little Kel-tec sub-2000.

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Already have one. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kyratshooter

I have an additional question? Will you be wearing oven mitts while shooting this unit from the prone bipod supported position? That exposed barrel is going to hurt someone! That is something that may look cool but is totally unreailistic.

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I like the idea of an integrated bipod, but might switch that out. There are a plethora of aftermarket replacement options for that forend.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hunter63

But if option pictured second can be fired when folded, I assuming a smaller cap mag,

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Actually, no. there is a slot in the stock, and longer mags simply extend down through the slot when the stock is folded. I am not sure if the stock can be unfolded while a longer mag is in the mag well, though. It may be you have to drop a longer mag, in order to unfold the stock. I am not sure, though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kyratshooter

Mag storage in the stock, cool, but not an issue, mag storage in loaded position, more cool.
IMHO

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Good point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rick

Why do you have a requirement for "instant on"? If you're in that kind of situation wouldn't you be "at the ready"?

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Only if I am ready. There is always the possibility of suddenly finding yourself in a situation you really, really didn't want or expect to be in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by klickitat

I would either buy an AK47 with a side folding stock

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Too heavy, IMO, and the wrong kind of ammo (more on this in a minute)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kyratshooter

or a Car15.

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I already have an M4. :) I've decided I want to go smaller, and lighter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kyratshooter

Parts are everywhere. Parts availability, resale value and some one who knows how to work on the Keltec all makes me choose one of the others.

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I'm planning this as a BO gun, and in a true BO situation, I don't anticipate finding AR parts just lying around anywhere. Better odds than finding Keltec parts, but IMO the odds are so small on either, that it's not a real consideration for me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kyratshooter

I am not saying that the Keltec is not a good gun. I am saying for about the same money you get so much more including a plethora of aftermarket parts and add ons.

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I already have an AR, I've decided against an AK, and I've decided to go simpler, not more complex. I don't need add-ons.

As to the ammo issue, I've decided to include a mag of chamber adapters for .22, that will turn the SU into a bolt-action .22 rifle just by switching magazines. I'll be using this in conjunction with my Ruger Mk III. So, I'll have a fair amount of .223 ammo for harder targets, and a whole buttload of .22 for smaller ones.

ETA: Hey guys, don't forget to vote!

http://www.jsgunparts.com/store/

They have a plinker right now for $580

AAAAArrrrggh! Another one on the list. Life is so unfair.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rick

AAAAArrrrggh! Another one on the list. Life is so unfair.

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take that satan.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kyratshooter

OK, the old guys that are no longer capable of doing a combat roll while loading a mag and dodging full auto fire have spoken!

This is why we buy Mosins and carry 1911s. We are too old to waste our time shooting anything twice.

---

I'm a firm believer that except for transport a rifle or shotgun should have a stock. I would never buy a shotgun with only a pistol grip and the rifle would have the stock extended if carried for use. I had enough spray & pray from guys with rifles with stocks, hate to be around one of those. :smash:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ole WV Coot

I'm a firm believer that except for transport a rifle or shotgun should have a stock. I would never buy a shotgun with only a pistol grip and the rifle would have the stock extended if carried for use. I had enough spray & pray from guys with rifles with stocks, hate to be around one of those. :smash:

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Gotta love the "spray and prayers", they are good for entertainment while the "adults" get ready :). That is why I continue to avoid the "black guns" to me at least, they encourage me to be foolish with my ammo (I am easily led astray).

The CA can carry 2 losded mags in the buttstock, The C can only carry one in the mag well. The C is deemed an assault rifle in California and thus illegal unless it had been previouly registered. Basically get the one you want and don't bother comming to California until it becomes a state again.

I say buy them both , and the one you dont like you can just send it to me.

But seriously I like them both but if I had to pick one it would be the The SU-16C for the two stage folding stock.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rick

You can pick up a Kel Tec for 5 bills new. Where can you find a Car15 for that? I haven't seen one for under a grand.

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I havent seen a CAR-15 in stock in a long time in my area and there running about 1600.00

Quote:

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Originally Posted by welderguy

I havent seen a CAR-15 in stock in a long time in my area and there running about 1600.00

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how many do you want? $800 plus shipping? hehehe seriously, if you want one check out that link I posted. J&S is a good outfit to deal with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by welderguy

I havent seen a CAR-15 in stock in a long time in my area and there running about 1600.00

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I bought a factory Bushmaster for $1000 even.

I built an AR for under $600.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SARKY

The CA can carry 2 losded mags in the buttstock, The C can only carry one in the mag well. The C is deemed an assault rifle in California and thus illegal unless it had been previouly registered. Basically get the one you want and don't bother comming to California until it becomes a state again.

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Alternatively, if it came down to it, I could just buy the CA stock for the C. The stocks are fully interchangeable between the different models.

I am not certain but I think there is more to the Kalifornia code than just the stock. I think they require a special mag ralease and several other modifications to the weapon.

I do not know because Kali is one of those places I never intend to go unless they pick me up and carry me to a POW camp in that area. I have actually stood at the border and refused to enter that particular area. I also refuse to enter New York and have my reservations about IL.

I did a quick check.

Cali says:

No flash hider
No folding stock, colapsible stock.
No foreward P-grip
No mag removal without a "tool", (fixed mag only)

I think the K-tec model probably has the bullet button mag release and since the receiver folds instead of the stock they slip it in.

I'm still not going to Kalifornia!

The reason the CA is legal here is because it can't be fired while the stock is folded. It didn't need a bullet button when I bought mine.

Either one is a good buy, I've heard good things about the weapon but the grip on the SU16 folder
is a bit hard on the hands as its kinda funky, there is also the PLR16 which is another KelTec weapon
and it's got great handling is rugged and can take a beating, I have one and it's wonderful, being
chambered in 5.56 you have the option of shooting .223 in it also which you cannot do with .223 (I mean shoot 5.56 in a .223)
Just some extra info.
Beo,

I realize this thread is old but the Kel-Tec SU16C and SU16CA are still being made and sold. I don't know what the final outcome was as to what the original tread poster bought.
You know the Piston driven 5.56 bolt in the SU-16C is almost the exact same design as the Deawoo DR200 used by the South Korean army special forces. Both the SU16C and the DR200 can interchange magazines with the colt AR-15.

Again I realize this tread is like a 100 years old But it is interesting and I never found the final out come.

I think she may fit in here just fine.

The reason I do not own em or sell em here in the shop is that the frame/receiver cracks after about 2000 rounds or so, some faster, some longer. They have known about it from day one and there are still reports of it happening. Cool concept for a gun, but I would not trust it to save my life. Plinker sure, but there are lower cost plinkers out there.

OhioGrizzLapp That is the first I am hearing of the receiver cracking on Kel-Tec SU16C/CA. I guess I will have to do a search on that info. How do you feel about Glocks? I hear the reinforced polymer they are made of is almost identical to that of the Kel-Tec line. Like I said I will need to look into the cracking problem you mentioned.

Did you happen to note if the crack is in the bolt slide area, near the bolt end of travel, or where exactly they crack? F.G.

LOL you picked the wrong guy for glocks too... nuttin really wrong with em, I am just old school and like steel and wood on a gun. I am not a huge EBR guy either... I have em, I sell em and repair em. But not a fan. For me, I would take a Mini-14 over an EBR, Colt over a Glock etc... I will take a well done 1911A1 over any of the Glocks and if I have to have a sub cal semi-long gun (carbine), I prefer a Camp 9 or 45.

The only EBR I like is the Robinson and in 6.5.

The cracks start near the ejection port and travel out and will eventually radiate. I am not sure if it is the same plastic/polymer as Glocks or not. Same reason I am not a huge fan of Spfld XD/XDM I just do not like plastic on a gun that I may risk my life for.

When I carry, I carry a Para-ord Night Hog......

I carry a Kel-Tec PF9 for personal protection and have a Kel-Tec sub2000. I have no complaints with either one.

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