Fish Poisons

Hi, I hope this is not a taboo subject. If it is please disregard or delete it.

Do you have any natural fish poisons in the US? By natural I mean anything that grows in the forest that you can use to stun fish. We have several although it’s not wildly used now.( People prefer to chuck in a stick of dynamite nowadays). However it’s good to know some of this stuff…may come in useful in extreme situations. If anyone is interested I can post some Latin names so you can follow up and check if you have species of the same genus over there.

With apologies to anyone who may be offended by this method. Sometimes it can be the only way to get some protein.

Jay - I think just about every state has outlawed that. If someone wants to correct me, that's fine. It is something that has been practiced, especially by the indigenous peoples, until fairly recent times. I remember as a kid, black walnut husks would be tied in a burlap bag and tossed in the water. It didn't take long for the fish to float to the surface.

I cheated a bit and found a web site that lists a good number of methods in the U.S. I have highlighted in red the indigenous people that used a particular method.

Catawba, Cherokee, and Delaware / Black Walnut, (Juglans nigra) / Bark and green nut husk

Yuchi and Creek / Devil's Shoestring, (Symphoricarpos orbiculatus) / Roots

Horse Chestnut, (Aesculus hippocastanum L) / Fruit, twigs and buds

Cherokee / Polk Sallet, Polkweed, (Phytolacca americana) / Berries

Central and coastal California / Turkey-Mullein, (Eremocarpus setigerus) / Leaves

California Buckeye, (Aesculus California) / Nut or fruit

Soap plant, soap root, (Chlorogalum pomeridianum) / Bulb

Indian hemp, (Apocynum cannabinum) / Stalk, leaves

Pokeweed, Polk sallet, (Phytolacca americana) / Leaves

Indian Turnip, (Arisaema triphyllum) / Leaves

Wild cucumber, Manroot, ( Marah fabaceus) / Seeds

Here is a link to the site I used. It lists a lot of plants used world wide:

http://www.primitiveways.com/fish_poison.html

Thanks Rick,
Great info, I check out the site.
BTW although it has been outlawed would you consider using this method if you were in a really bad situation? Do you think many people would?

I sure would. I have no qualms at all about using whatever means I can to keep me or my family/friends alive anyway I can.

By way of clarification, when I say it is illegal. I simply mean it's not an acceptable form of fishing under normal circumstances. In a true survival situation, most laws don't govern.

I would think that those that know how to use it would. It's just one more skill that is slipping through our fingers.

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Originally Posted by Jay

although it has been outlawed would you consider using this method if you were in a really bad situation? Do you think many people would?

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definitely.

Poisons huh? Toxic waste seems to head the top of the list.:rolleyes: Since we're "Post-911" the following methods are to be used only if you're truly in dire straights. Assuming you have access to explosives dynamite works really well. Here in the mid-West folks used to use the Carbide that miners used in their head lamps. Take a quart jar, put in some Carbide, poke some holes in the lid, then tighten it down. Tie one end of a rope to the jar the other end to a rock or other heavy weight heavy enough to pull the jar under water. As the jar is pulled under, the water comes in through the holes and mixes with the carbide forming a gas. As the gas expands to a certain point it explodes shocking &/or killing a certain amount of fish that then float to the surface for harvesting. I've even heard tell of some people using MRE heaters for the same thing, utillizing the chemical compound inside of them.:eek:

Blasting fish leaves way more dead fish on the bottom than you see floating on top, and you usually get to see a lot floating on top. I come from a town where fishing was great and explosives were easily accessed. I didn't do it.

Having said that, I wouldn't hesitate if I had to do it. Jay asked about the legality of poisoning fish or other means of getting them. If it comes down to what I have to do to survive...legal doesn't mean squat to me. I think that there's way too much government and way too d**n many laws anyway. Edward Abbey...there we go again....said "the more corrupt a society, the more numerous it's laws" and I tend to agree with him. He may have gotten it from somewhere else but it was him that I read it from, anyway, check out your country's criminal code sometimes, pretty thick volumes.

But if you poison the fish,wouldn't that in turn poison you when you eat them?Just curious,I had not heard of poisoning them before.

Well now, there is a reasonable question. Thank you, dear Nell.

How the poison affects the fish depends on the type of poison used. There are several different types but they either enter the blood stream through the gills and place the fish into sort of a stupor allowing them to be captured or interfere with the fish's respiration. Unable to breath, they come to the surface where they can be captured. (No, I'm not that over-whelmingly intelligent. I had to look it up). Concentrations are usually very low to impact the fish and would require higher concentrations to affect humans.

I would not use a metal poison like cyanide. That would give you problems.

By the way, there is a section on fishing with poisons on this site.

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/food-4.php

As for the blasting part. A game warden friend went fishing with me once and I pulled out a stick of dynamite and lit it.

"What are you doing?" he asked.

"Fishin'", I said.

"Using dynamite is illegal," he pointed out.

I handed the lit stick of dynamite to him. "You gonna talk or you gonna fish?"

Parump bump. Thank you folks. I do two shows a week.

I was wondering the exact same thing nell. As well how many fish does it kill? Just an area in the water and if there fish in that area, who only those die? And what about the rest of the water, would it make the water bad for all the other fish and wildlife int here, and dirnking it still same? Never heard of this before, well heard of the dynamite but always found that a somewhat cheating way to get fish. Yes if NEED to i would but still weird and what the side affects are.
thanks

You want to use the poison in an area of either slow moving water or water that does not move. That way the concentrations are not diluted and you impact a larger number of fish. That is the goal. Do a Google search for "fish poisons" and a bunch of articles show up. Like any other pollutant, the old saying goes. The solution to pollution is dilution. The chemicals will soon disperse and loose their potency.

EDIT: I should also have added that specific poison types affect specific species of fish. According to the articles.

Either way,I think it would have to be a need to situation before I would go there.
I enjoy the sport in fishing as well as eating the fish,and I dont really see the sport in blasting or poisoning.
You would seriously have to be ready to put away anything that died,or was stunned by either method,because leaving any behind would be a waste of resources you may need later on.

As I said, to my knowledge, both methods are illegal to use everywhere. As Trax pointed out, it is really indiscriminate killing and you only capture those that come to the surface. But poisoning fish has been a wide spread practice world wide forever and a day. If I had just passed week 3 (3 weeks without food) I'd probably be ready to eat that elephant poo. Tossin' some walnut hulls in the water would be the least of my concerns.

Anyone catch Mythbusters when they did the myth of "shooting fish in a barrel"? They found that it wasn't actually too hard to shoot a fish, but were more surprised by the g-force shock the fish felt when the bullet entered the water. Turns out they didn't even need to hit the fish, but the concussion was enough to kill it. They rigged a motor with a wire and inserted it into an already dead fish bought at the market. However, it was a realistic portrayal of a fish swimming in a barrel... my 2 cents.

I've shot fish in a pond (also illegal btw) and sometimes it's friggin' hard. they wiggle around and the water deflects the bullets.....

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Originally Posted by nell67

Either way,I think it would have to be a need to situation before I would go there.
I enjoy the sport in fishing as well as eating the fish,and I dont really see the sport in blasting or poisoning.
You would seriously have to be ready to put away anything that died,or was stunned by either method,because leaving any behind would be a waste of resources you may need later on.

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Just some clarification.
Nell, I work primarily in conservation so I don't condone blasting or poisoning fish or any other animal for that matter. However as Rick pointed out its been going on for a long time.

I also teach survival methods to various groups. I certainly don't teach this to civilians, but I do to others...if you get my drift. They sometimes need it badly. I cant go into detail but a couple of years ago, a "survivor" from a bad situation (Chris Rayan type) traveled for 3 weeks to get back to his lines. the only type of food he had in all that time was 2 small yams and 3 coconuts. Yet he was travelling through jungle. Plenty of streams, ponds,rivers etc. If he had possesed this type of knowledge he'd have fared much better.

I dont view it as a sport, but I'd do it, if all other means had failed.
most of the plants we use bind up the oxigen in the water making it difficult for the fish to breathe, causing them to come to the surface where they are easily collected.
rgds
jay

Jay,

Check out this page - Mainstay Emergency Rations, Shelf life is 5 years, they are part of my survival kit, in case all else fails. They have a nice lemon flavor, they're the best Emg Rations I have tasted, they're bars.

http://www.bestglide.com/Mainstay_Em...y_Rations.html

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Originally Posted by Gray Wolf

Jay,

Check out this page - Mainstay Emergency Rations, Shelf life is 5 years, they are part of my survival kit, in case all else fails. They have a nice lemon flavor, they're the best Emg Rations I have tasted, they're bars.

http://www.bestglide.com/Mainstay_Em...y_Rations.html

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Thanks Grey Wolf,
I just had a look at it. sounds good. I dont think its available in this part of the world though. once on a survival ex I got the oppotunity to try one (MRE)that had specifically been imported from Malaysia for testing. I was not too impressed.
At aproximately seven hundred rupees it is a little expensive. When customs duties, taxes etc are added it could be as much as Rs 1000. Howver the long shelf life may make it worthwhile.
thanks for the info.

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Originally Posted by Jay

Thanks Grey Wolf,
I just had a look at it. sounds good. I dont think its available in this part of the world though. once on a survival ex I got the oppotunity to try one (MRE)that had specifically been imported from Malaysia for testing. I was not too impressed.
At aproximately seven hundred rupees it is a little expensive. When customs duties, taxes etc are added it could be as much as Rs 1000. Howver the long shelf life may make it worthwhile.
thanks for the info.

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I tried quite a few different kinds and brands of MRE's. I didn't care for them either. Plus, they don't give you the vit's and callories you realy need to trek on to hunt, fish or build a shelter etc, like these Mainstay Emergency Ration Bars.
Where you are, how does a gift work as far as customs duties and taxes?

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Originally Posted by Gray Wolf

I tried quite a few different kinds and brands of MRE's. I didn't care for them either. Plus, they don't give you the vit's and callories you realy need to trek on to hunt, fish or build a shelter etc, like these Mainstay Emergency Ration Bars.
Where you are, how does a gift work as far as customs duties and taxes?

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Grey Wolf,
Customs is a law unto it self!! Duties are very high, for gifts and every thing else. most of the time anything thats new to them is conficated. I had dealing with them in the past as for ten years I worked for two courier companies. one has it origins in your part of the world...United Parcel Service (UPS)
But thanks anyway.

Jay - In the case of your friend, where he is on the move and attempting to get from point A to point B then your options, as you know, become a bit more limited. You mentioned he was trying to "get back to his lines" so there may have been an evasion aspect to his efforts. Just keep in mind that if someone is being tracked then using poison for fishing may give away his location if all the fish are not gathered. Dead fish in the water would sure be out of place especially if he tracked to that location. In addition, you might harvest more fish than you could reasonably eat so decaying carcasses could also be a give away.

It would not be as successful in free flowing water because the poison would be diluted but those fish that were affected would float downstream and might provide a trail directly to him.

A fish spear might be a better option if the river is shallow and the fish somewhat abundant. It would provide him a more selective means of targeting individual prey rather than killing everything within a given area.

Just some thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Rick

Jay - In the case of your friend, where he is on the move and attempting to get from point A to point B then your options, as you know, become a bit more limited. You mentioned he was trying to "get back to his lines" so there may have been an evasion aspect to his efforts. Just keep in mind that if someone is being tracked then using poison for fishing may give away his location if all the fish are not gathered. Dead fish in the water would sure be out of place especially if he tracked to that location. In addition, you might harvest more fish than you could reasonably eat so decaying carcasses could also be a give away.

It would not be as successful in free flowing water because the poison would be diluted but those fish that were affected would float downstream and might provide a trail directly to him.

A fish spear might be a better option if the river is shallow and the fish somewhat abundant. It would provide him a more selective means of targeting individual prey rather than killing everything within a given area.

Just some thoughts.

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Rick you're right on all counts, but in this particular instance, the trackers lost him on the 4th day. I guess they couldnt spare the time and manpower.
I allways tell them to evaluate the benefit against the danger. In this case the danger had passed and he could have uses some of the skills if he had them. He was in one of the programs I did last year and ever so grateful for the knowledge he gained from it. he provided some very valuable insites for me. (Quite a bit of difference between E&E and survival it seems) Survival is taught to them in a very basic way. they know some of the theory but have never done practical work such as bow drill, hand drill,or other alternate methods of making fire, eddible plants, poisonous plants, medicinal plants,tracking,trapping etc.
I keep carrying out various experiments with a couple of friends and catalouging the info so they can pass it down the line. there is a very real need for it.

Jay - In E&E you have to become the jungle. Little time to worry about food. It's survival just at a different level. IMHO.

If the search had continued into day 9 or 10, or the fellow would otherwise not have been able to utilize fish poison, would it be possible to acquire two 2 meter pieces of bamboo, split each of them about a meter and insert either grass or some broad leaf into the bamboo forming a seine or type of basket that could then be moved through the water? You might not capture larger fish but you might be able to capture some smaller fish or frogs or even fresh water creel if you have them. It would be some protein for little expended energy. I would also think there would be plenty of insects and grubs that he could have taken advantage of while on the move.

I'm not certain what the climate was like but I do know SL has mountainous regions as well as lowlands. Would something like a Dakota Fire Pit also be worth teaching? It offers both warmth and low light and is taught to our Air Force pilots.

http://www.m4040.com/Survival/Skills/Fire/Fire.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYN6CmYFOW0

Finally, I would think bamboo would be one of his greatest assets and more versatile tools. From spears to water carriers to edible shoots.

Just some thoughts.

Rick thanks, the Dakota fire pit was something I didn't know. Will try it out.
Bamboo is available in the wet zone. This guy was operating in the dry zone where it isn't freely available. Ditto cane. However there’s plenty of twigs, vines etc that he could have used. again no practical knowledge!
A simple way to catch freshwater shrimp, crayfish etc is to cut a small bush and place it in the stream weighted down with a rock. leave it overnight an in the morning there’s plenty of critters sheltering or nibbling at the leaves. If you can make a basket or use a shirt on a forked stick you can scoop them out. Or just put your hands under the bush and heave the whole thing on to the shore. you have to be quick. I've done it several times.
We have 3 main climatic zones and the jungle in each one is different. When you add altitude to the equation it breaks down in to even smaller ecosystems.

Is it ok if I PM you sometime?

Of course!

Jay a question, have you ever eaten or do you know of anyone who has eaten a Flying Fox Bat? They're huge, about a 5' - 6' wingspan with a big 3lb body. They're a fruit eating Bat that has a face like a fox, roost in the trees, and are out during the daytime. I know that they live in Indonesia, Asia and a few other tropical jungles.

Their also called Fruit Bats.

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Originally Posted by Gray Wolf

Their also called Fruit Bats.

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Grey Wolf,
Yes I have eaten flying fox. we have 3 species. and some 27 smaller insectivorous ones.
Bit of a strong musty smell to the meat. otherwise almost like chicken. Trick it to use plenty of spices. Also very good roasted. Maximum wing span I have seen and measured was 4' 11". Make d..m sure they are quite dead before handling. They can give a very nasty bite. face just like a fox. They are known carriers of rabies.
I have at one time or another eaten a lot of unusual things including several species of snake.

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Originally Posted by Jay

Grey Wolf,
I have at one time or another eaten a lot of unusual things including several species of snake.

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I actually like eating many different species of snakes, again, depends on how you spice and cook it. There's also a 2nd benefit to it, making many things from the skins.

Back to the flying fox, what is the native way of catching them?

The first thing to do is to find a roosting tree. They have fixed roosts that they come back to each morning, The smaller bats seem to preffer caves, and dark nooks and crannies in rocks, inside eaves of tall buildings, abandoned huts in the jungle.

It's not too difficult to find the roost. the constant chatter and the smell, and droppings give it away. People, usually in a group of 5-6 will hide in the underbrush at daylight. in about an hour or so the bickering and jostling is over and the bats start to quieten down and just hang there like ripe fruit. (Usually around 9.30am) this is the time the hunters come out of the bush with short heavy throwing sticks.
A well aimed throwing stick can bring down a bat in one go. If you are fairly quiet you can get off several throws before the whole colony is disturbed.

Some kids I know, who live on the fringe of the jungles in the south actually climb up and grab the bats by the neck and bash them against the tree.

once the colony is disturbed it'll take over an hour to settlel down again.

I used to pick them off with a shotgun. (Have an old Harrigton and Richardson "topper M 48" single barrel in 16g. I think its manufactured in Massachusetts.) #4 or better still #6 shot will drop several.
Why the special interst in fruit bats may I ask?

The krait is the only snake I have found unpalatable so far. Very rubbery and bitter.

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Originally Posted by Jay

Why the special interst in fruit bats may I ask?

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I had read about how big they were and that they only feed on fruit, like many things we eat, the taste of it can depend on what it eats or where it grows. Also that they roost out in the trees. I had also read that a study done in Hawaii was trying to link different brain disease's with eating the Fruit Bat.

Thanks for the info.

Against the law to kill a bat in Illinois. Freakin' thing should be the State Bird! :rolleyes:

My neighbor has bat boxes for roosting. Cool as hell. I don't need an entire colony but it's nice to see a bunch of 'em around.

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Originally Posted by Gray Wolf

I had read about how big they were and that they only feed on fruit, like many things we eat, the taste of it can depend on what it eats or where it grows. Also that they roost out in the trees. I had also read that a study done in Hawaii was trying to link different brain disease's with eating the Fruit Bat.

Thanks for the info.

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You're very welcome Grey Wolf.
I wanted to attach some pics for you but couldnt get it figured out. My relationship with computers is at best "stormy"
Now if it was some thing I could catch in a snare.....................
Thanks for the tip about the Hawaian study. I did'nt know that. I'll look it up. should be a paper on it somewhere on the net.

Rick, If you had a whole colony of fruit bats within 1/4 of a mile, you'd be singing a different tune.
One of the greatest threats to bats here in SL is that people cut down roosting trees that have been used for generations because of the noise and the smell.

You bet. "Within a 1/4 of a mile," is the key. I just don't want them right around the house. There is probably nothing that rids the area of insects faster than bats. Little eating machines.

Hi. These are some pics from SL. Enjoy. will post some more later.

All these pics were taken by friends of mine.

Jay. Thanks for the pics...I really enjoyed them. Beginning to look like "National Geographic" on this forum :).

Truly inspiring, Jay. Excellent pics.

Wow, Thanks Jay!

How big are those bats in the pic's, they look Huge!!! And their faces look like dogs.... and their bodies like little bears.