Historical Knives

I am just wondering how many of you have seen any Reproductions of ACTUAL historical knives. I know the Sgiann Dubh is one that is still being made. I read somewhere that a lot of the Reproductions used by re-enactors have no real basis historically. I do NOT know this to be true, which is why I am asking/posing this question.

Partly my reason is that I would like to make some of the "Old" designs, using materials available today. Things like Stabilized wood for handles, Mosaic pins,and "Better quality" steel and adhesives. I think my next project is going to be this Bowie. It IS on display at the Alamo,and the design has Provenance. It is the Cephas Ham Bowie, that was presented to him by Rezin Bowie, Jim Bowie's brother. This is a link to the knife I am talking about. To some it may look like a slightly distorted butcher knife.
http://www.tamu.edu/ccbn/dewitt/adp/...ephas_ham.html

What I am thinking,is this. Today there are a LOT of "Survival Knives" being sold as such. Most look as if they are designed for fighting knives Primarily. However, many/most of us know that a knife would have to be used in a variety of uses in a true survival situation,Rarely for fighting. So I got to thinking, "Who used their knives for just that purpose". The only answer that I could come up with was Mountain Men,and Early Adventurers/Explorers.

If anyone knows of any knives that meet my requirements of
1) Provenance - It must be known for a fact to be carried by a particular individual(s) of historic importance (In this case Cephas Ham was, I believe one who fought at the Alamo, But Rezin Bowie was well known as a knife designer,as was his brother Jim)
2) a clear photo of the knife, Preferably one displayed in a museum. Hopefully with something to use for "scale" of the actual knife's size.
3) No Daggers, or other "Fighting knives", I'm not interested so much in the Martial aspect,as I am the multi use of a blades design. True soldiers have used bayonets to Baton wood,but their main function was for fighting.

So far the only ones I am aware of are this, the Cephas Ham Bowie, and the Nessmuk. Any and all replies are appreciated!

Poco I would like to add a kukri to your list. I know it is a fighting knife, but it is used for chopping and is used by regular folks for everyday things in its country of origin. I know I have seen a pic of a british soldier using one. I know it doesn't fit all your criteria, but google isn't helping me here.

Here is a piece from wikipedia:
Despite use in the military, the kukri is most commonly used as a woodcutting and general purpose tool, and is a very common agricultural and household implement in Nepal. A kukri designed for general purpose is commonly 16 to 18 inches (around 40–45 cm) in overall length and weighs one to two pounds (around 450-900 grams). Bigger examples are impractical for everyday use and are rarely found except in collections or as ceremonial instruments. Smaller ones are of more limited utility, but very easy to carry.

J Russell Company made butcher's knives which where in popular general purpose use during the fur trade era. this was the company that made the green river knives.

i would add that Scottish knives have a long history of general purpose use, from warfare to kitchen work. many examples i have seen look also to be butcher's knives, such as the reproduction knives made by old dominion forge.

Thank you Panch0 and Canid.

The problem I am having with the "Reproductions" is that the smear I have heard on the basis of fact. One knife Maker's site I visited that did "Reproductions" had so many different Reproductions that really looked like "New" designs. I found it hard to believe that they were in fact true Reproductions, especially after hearing the "smear" on reproductions provenance. That is why I am having a hard time finding pictures of knives from museums. Most of the "Reproductions" I have seen from doing web searches have turned up things like swords,daggers, and such. Not really "Knives" that we would consider useful for outdoor use. Pics of said knives seem to be rather hard to come by!! Another set of knives I have found are these, which are attributed to Buffalo hunters. As well as some other, newer knives that have a "Rustic" look.

It is not so much the "rustic look" that I am after, as much as real true working knives from the Mountain Men and Early American Explorers Era. They are harder to find than you might think. I would have thought that there would be Dozens, if not hundreds of such examples from Museums all over the web. Boy, was I wrong!! Most such searches turn up Knife Makers versions, Or "Display" Reproductions. Rarely is it an actual, true to life, museum quality knife!! This is the reason I posed this question!

http://www.skknives.com/furtrade/etched.html

I just saw this site earlier poco, maybe check him out.

This link may offer a few ideas as well. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ca...torical_knives

The research will be fun Poco! I played with this as well for a while. My avatar is of a Scagel style knife I made. He is probably more modern than you are looking for but his work is remarkable!

A Scagel Bowie? Yeah I saw that on Mike Carters website. Mike Carter is in Louisville,Ky. As near as I can tell he is a master! Seems to specialize in Bowies! Thanks everyone! I will be doing some research!! Anyone run across anything let me know!!

I'm kinda surprised H63 or Beo didn't stop in with some ideas! Just Got my first 2 back from Heat Treat today!! I will post pics in the "Nessie Thread".

if ya ever get down by knoxville if i remember right the smokey mountain knife works has oodles of old knives on display. a guy could get lots of ideas from it all.

You are correct Randy!! SMKW does have a knife museum, They even have a 3' slipjoint!! (that is NOT a typo, That's right they have a 3 foot slipjoint!!)

Yo, I' here, been busy, I'm still working with my leather scraps.

Anyway, I did post these while back, but these came from a friend in the Phoenix area museum.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y13...er63/WIL10.jpg

Oh, yeah. Those. Leather scales if I remember right. Nice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pocomoonskyeyes

A Scagel Bowie? Yeah I saw that on Mike Carters website. Mike Carter is in Louisville,Ky. As near as I can tell he is a master! Seems to specialize in Bowies! Thanks everyone! I will be doing some research!! Anyone run across anything let me know!!

I'm kinda surprised H63 or Beo didn't stop in with some ideas! Just Got my first 2 back from Heat Treat today!! I will post pics in the "Nessie Thread".

---

I didnt know it had to be a bowie to fit the criteria. Rezin actually presented several knives to different people so there are many to choose from.

Scagel built the knives that inspired much of the custom knifemakers that followed. His knives were the first of the great American knives IMO. Bo Randall started making knives after buying a scagel from a man using it to scrape barnicles off his boat (or something like that). Bob Loveless started making knives when he tried to buy a Randall and was told they were sold out.

I dont know how far back into history..or how far forward you are looking to go but Scagel knives were carried on the first trip up Everest and several US explorations. Randall knives made it to the moon. Both were used by soldiers during WWII and in fact, it was the war that turned Bo Randall from a hobbiest to the company we know it now.

To me, these two as well as guys like Rudy Ruana and Bill Moran are some fantastic makers who forged the history of American blades.

Prior to Jim Bowie's famous knife fight, I think much of the knives carried in this country were either patch knives or skinners of some sort and made for their usefulness and not as a presentation pieces.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camp10

I didnt know it had to be a bowie to fit the criteria. Rezin actually presented several knives to different people so there are many to choose from.

Scagel built the knives that inspired much of the custom knifemakers that followed. His knives were the first of the great American knives IMO. Bo Randall started making knives after buying a scagel from a man using it to scrape barnicles off his boat (or something like that). Bob Loveless started making knives when he tried to buy a Randall and was told they were sold out.

I dont know how far back into history..or how far forward you are looking to go but Scagel knives were carried on the first trip up Everest and several US explorations. Randall knives made it to the moon. Both were used by soldiers during WWII and in fact, it was the war that turned Bo Randall from a hobbiest to the company we know it now.

To me, these two as well as guys like Rudy Ruana and Bill Moran are some fantastic makers who forged the history of American blades.

Prior to Jim Bowie's famous knife fight, I think much of the knives carried in this country were either patch knives or skinners of some sort and made for their usefulness and not as a presentation pieces.

---

No it doesn't have to be a Bowie, Matter of fact I would rather it wasn't a Bowie. There are hundreds of Bowie's out there. The only reason I like the Cephas Ham Bowie, is that it does not look like a "typical" Bowie. It looks like a mixture of Bowie, Butcher, and Nessmuk.
What I am really looking for is more the types of knives that woodsmen, Explorers, Frontiersmen,and such would have carried. The Hudson Bay is one that comes to mind, as does the Nessmuk, various Patch knives and the like.

Basically, Knives that would have been designed by people that lived in the woods for various lengths of time. Whose lives quite literally depended on their knives as much, if not more, than their firearms.

I think that most modern "Survival Knives" have taken on too much of a Martial/military machismo type of design. Something that "Looks cool", but is not all that functional in woods use. Yes it will cut,and chop,and basic knife functions, But they are designed as (please pardon the expression) Mall-ninja accessories.

I have become of the mind that, to make a knife that one's life could depend on, we have to look backwards to when they really did fill that purpose. Yes there are some good "Modern" Designs, Like the Alaskan Skinner so many knife companies are selling today. Good Knife, good design, Lot's of them floating around. I'm looking for the "others", the ones that aren't so widely known/used, but actually were used by Frontiersman,and Explorers.

Daniel Boone's knife is on display at the old state capitol museum in Frankfort, KY as are many neat items down to the self supporting stairway. Been a few years since I was there so check and see if it's still there.

Dixie Gun Works sells a Daniel Boone repop knife.

My Searles Bowie when to the Alamo, and is not exact but darn close to the one on display there.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/images/KE6701.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tripwire

Dixie Gun Works sells a Daniel Boone repop knife.

My Searles Bowie when to the Alamo, and is not exact but darn close to the one on display there.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/images/KE6701.jpg

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I've seen it and others. Boone didn't own anything made like that. His knife is just a butcher knife, longer blade & wooden handles. His rifle is there also, the crudest rifle but all he could afford. He wasn't a man with money.

Two different topics Sir.

Boone knife and Jim & Resin's first Bowie design called the Searles Boone because George Searles made the first two knives for the Bowie Brothers.

The above pic is a copy of the Bowie design.

Boone's knife he took off a dead Indian

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product...oducts_id=1478

When I went to Dixie Gun Works to buy the Boone knife, the guy put the Searles bowie in my hand, and it followed me home.
It will follow me to the grave, just like Jim Bowie's did.

one of boone's knife had a handle that slipped over the pointed end and then he used the knife as a flesher.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by randyt

one of boone's knife had a handle that slipped over the pointed end and then he used the knife as a flesher.

---

I just might suggest that everything made by folks claiming to be descendants of Mr. Boone can't be believed and if you actually think they had enough materials or money to make anything that fancy to use you're wrong. Give the museum a call, I dug lead out of Blockhouse Bottom when I was a kid and rode a bike to Jenny Wiley's grave at River and spent many years in ALL of KY and I think I know a tad about KY settlers and settlements, most of them are ancestors. Best get your blades straight or tell the museum they have a fake. The man had several knives and just ole butcher knives.

Somebody, somewhere must be reading my mind!! This months Backwoodsman magazine has an article right along these very lines!!

Funny thing is, they say that without a doubt the knife that "Won the west" was a butcher knife!! So next time you look for a "Survival knife", don't go to the sporting goods store or section, but where you would buy your Butcher knives!! Maybe that is the reason patterns like the Cephas Ham Bowie, the Nessmuk and such as these are the "Real Survival knives"!!

Yep - never doubt what pops (aka Ole WV Coot) tells ya.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ole WV Coot

I just might suggest that everything made by folks claiming to be descendants of Mr. Boone can't be believed and if you actually think they had enough materials or money to make anything that fancy to use you're wrong. Give the museum a call, I dug lead out of Blockhouse Bottom when I was a kid and rode a bike to Jenny Wiley's grave at River and spent many years in ALL of KY and I think I know a tad about KY settlers and settlements, most of them are ancestors. Best get your blades straight or tell the museum they have a fake. The man had several knives and just ole butcher knives.

---

thanks for the info but i wasn't there with boone so i can only go by what i have read. i haven't been to a museum that had anything pertaining to boone. i think a handcarved wooden end would not have been that fancy or expensive to make.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ole WV Coot

I just might suggest that everything made by folks claiming to be descendants of Mr. Boone can't be believed and if you actually think they had enough materials or money to make anything that fancy to use you're wrong. Give the museum a call, I dug lead out of Blockhouse Bottom when I was a kid and rode a bike to Jenny Wiley's grave at River and spent many years in ALL of KY and I think I know a tad about KY settlers and settlements, most of them are ancestors. Best get your blades straight or tell the museum they have a fake. The man had several knives and just ole butcher knives.

---

This is one reason I asked about knives that had "Provenance". Every year it seems, someone is coming out with some "this or that" that is supposed to have belonged to, or used by, some historical person. Only to find out later that it is some load of Malarkey.

If I make a knife and label it as a "so and so Reproduction" I don't want to get slapped in the face by being called a "Fraud". Eventually I want to be able to sell some knives. I believe that "Reputation" as a Fair and HONEST seller is VERY important. Yeah I may make some,that "Resemble Old fashioned knives", That have NO provenance. Those I would label something like the "Frontiersman", "Gambler's Dagger", "Wagon Master" or some such name. But the ones that I actually provide a person's name too, will have to have some historical fact, or provenance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pocomoonskyeyes

This is one reason I asked about knives that had "Provenance". Every year it seems, someone is coming out with some "this or that" that is supposed to have belonged to, or used by, some historical person. Only to find out later that it is some load of Malarkey.

If I make a knife and label it as a "so and so Reproduction" I don't want to get slapped in the face by being called a "Fraud". Eventually I want to be able to sell some knives. I believe that "Reputation" as a Fair and HONEST seller is VERY important. Yeah I may make some,that "Resemble Old fashioned knives", That have NO provenance. Those I would label something like the "Frontiersman", "Gambler's Dagger", "Wagon Master" or some such name. But the ones that I actually provide a person's name too, will have to have some historical fact, or provenance.

---

It is fairly tough to get some real provenance on many knives because knives were treated as just a tool. Probably the most famous knife in the world, Jim Bowie's knife is really unknown. There is no picture, drawing or anything (other than a few differing opinions)as to what it really looked like. It was large and resembles a butcher's knife...that's it!

IMO it is better to stick with the "frontiersman, Gambler's,wagon master" old fashioned styles because you can find these and make a very accurate modern copy. You can even pick up some found (dug up) knives from this era on places like Ebay and see how they were really made. Either way, it is much fun researching old knives.

Well I did a ROUGH drawing of the "Cephas Ham Bowie". I mean it is rough!! I drew two different "patterns" one is for steel that is 1 1/2" wide and one for 2" steel. The length is 10" and the handle is 5". To be honest I am not happy with it. It doesn't look like the original that is on display at the Alamo. It must either be really wide steel, or it is shorter than 10". Anyway here it is:

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/t...gns/img006.jpg


And some other designs I drew up just doodling........

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/t...gns/img007.jpg

Man Am I thrilled!! I drew up some designs for the "Cephas Ham Bowie", but it just doesn't look right!! I believe the drawings I did are for a knife that is Larger than the real one.

So........ I decided that the only way to find out is to contact the Curator at the Long Barracks Museum at the Alamo. Which is precisely what I did. I honestly expected a nice "Refusal" for the information, meanwhile thanking me for my interest. That was NOT the case! The Curator E-mailed me back and said he would be glad to provide me the dimensions of the Knife!!! WOO HOO!! I am stoked!! I can't wait!! It's like Christmas for me. As soon as I get the Dimensions I can start trying to do a proper drawing of the REAL Cephas Ham Bowie!!

On an aside note, I have been so "into" this knife, and asking questions on different Forums about it, that another Knife Maker got in touch with ME asking about this very knife!! Seems that if you do a search for "Cephas Ham Bowie" several of the answers are links to my talking about it!! He figured it must be that I have some knowledge about it, and contacted me!! I almost fell out of my chair laughing about that!! ME, a person to ask about this knife?? anyway it probably isn't as funny to you as it was to me. I just know how much I DON'T Know about it!! Anyyyyy wayyyy........... I thought I would share where my journey has led me thus far in the search for info. I am very intrigued to say the least!! Oh, and Impatient........:innocent::clap:

Don't forget to get the weight of the knife from the curator. That may be a helpful bit of information as well. Good luck!!

poco, don't you just love it when a plan comes together?
Sometimes the "quest" is the fun part........good show.

It' nice to see that the curator takes a real interest in teaching others. That's what happens when passion for a subject and a job intertwine.

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