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While searching around amazon.com I see they have sutures for sale , how ever they are out dated and are for teaching or vet use only.
Now my question is what goes out of date on a suture pack , is it the sterility, or is it the suture material deteriorates after the date or would they still be good to use in an absolute SHTF emergency. Any one know the answer ?
Quick update they also have single use skin staplers for sale !!!!
You don't want a skin stapler. My wife (an RN) has made that very clear to me. Very, very clear. Did I mention she made it clear to me?
actually any stapler will work on skin if you can get the victim to hold still for just a few seconds.
Has she said why not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
And why dont you want skin staples?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Exactly my question to her. She looked at me and said, "Do you know how to use a skin stapler?" I said, "No." She just turned and walked away. I've brought it up a couple of times since then and she just says, "We've had this conversation. You do not want one. You don't need it."
I've been married long enough to know that if my wife tells me I don't want something, by danged I don't want it!
So Rick........where are you keeping the skin stapler so she won't find it?
I have no skin staplers. I don't know how to use them. I don't need them so I don't own any..... is she asleep in there (peering around corner)
well I figure I dont know how to use one either but Im sure I can figure it out...LOL
Actualy Im thinking , puting them in would be easy REMOVING them may take some skill and training.
i would have to assume it's the sterility guarantee of the packaging which expires. packaging materials, particularly soft ones such as paper and plastic based ones aren't impervious to the passage of time, exposure to light, oxygen, etc.
Many of the same medical supplies used on animals are the same thing used on people. I've been trying for about 3 years to find a source for sutures around here. I always get the same story.. you need to be a doctor to get them. I have on occasion asked the doctor if I might have one or two, and sometimes they give the the same story, and sometimes they smile and give me a pack or two. Stitching skin is not much different from sewing, and if you've watched a doctor sew you up once or twice, you get the gist.
I would think that even if they are "expired" but still safe for use on animals, then they would still be safe for animals. Can you ask your wife about this Rick (or anyone else)? I've had to sew myself up on more than one occasion. I work with sharp utility knives and metal trim-stuffs a lot.
Wasnt there a Dr. that posted on here a couple times, anyone remember his forum name I would shoot him a PM if I could remember.
You can buy sutures all day long. Google sutures, you'll get tons of hits. I have suture kits in my medical kits as a last ditch device.
You really don't need staple kits. Staples are used because it is much quicker than suturing and more consistent. However, they come in different widths and depths and you need the knowledge of what type of staple is needed for what type of wound. It's also a mechanical device that can fail you when you need it although that's a minor concern in my book.
As for sutures, if you have a large open wound then suturing needs to be done internally and externally. Just suturing a large wound externally provides little support and the skin can tear around the sutures and the wound open up again.
If the wound is small enough for just external stitches then a compression bandage should be the first method of choice and get to a doctor.
As for expired sutures, depending on the material they are made of, the suture can rot. In addition, there could be sterility issues although that wouldn't be my first concern.
Overall, wounds should be treated with appropriate first aid. That means bandaging and getting to an EXPERT that knows how to deal with that specific injury. Lay people using devices such as staples or sutures can wind up doing more harm to themselves in the long run. Harm that can include nerve damage and vascular injuries.
This thread probably speaks to the need for folks to take a good first aid course and additional classes if possible.
We have had a couple of doctors, several EMTS, a few nurses and some medics on the forum from time to time. I've been in contact with Adventuredoc in the past couple of weeks and he's planning on returning to the forum. He's been out of the country recently.
Rick, thanks for the info on the staplers, and as for sutures I have a few sets I got from the vets office, But my original question was what is the expireation date for on suture packs, what expires.
That was it Adventuredoc , Thanks Rick. I was wondering what happend to him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Had an identical conversation with my ex several years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
I have a couple of staplers I keep on hand. I have used them on my horses in the past. I find that they are easier than sutures if you can't sedate the animal. I get them from a medical supplier in New Orleans.
They have also sold me saline IVs and the spike kits. When they ask me what they are for I tell them for the horses. I use the saline as wound wash and eye wash.
I guess I should point out for any new members that I am not a doctor nor do I have any medical training other than first aid courses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
That is what DUCK Tape is for.......:innocent:
That was my exact comment to my wife this morning. LOL. She just looked at me and shook her head. Pull the wound together and use a compression bandage was the response I got.
And super glue, dont forget the superglue.
Medical grade......just sayin'
Of course anything else would be uncivilizedQuote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Believe it or not: The Special Ops medical community just put out a caution against using duck tape (or 100 mph tape).Quote:
Originally Posted by Sourdough
Maybe I am off the subject, but I have read you can use honey or pepper for even deep wounds. The wound should be filled with pepper and covered with a guaze or bandage, Keep wrapped for around 24 (not to tight) and remove the bandage and gently remove the pepper.
Like I said it is only theoretical knowledge. If I am wrong and someone has experience with either, please post the correct information.
I had surgical tape used on me 5 years ago when I had a pretty nasty gash (diving) on my stomach.
The tape fell off by itself, wound healed well, hardly a mark left. Having had both, prefer it to stitches. I'll bet it would be easier to administer too.
You can find out more about it here:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/182/5/58
HIGHLIGHT:
"The effective use of a new surgical adhesive tape, in place of thread sutures, to close skin wounds and major incisions was reported to surgeons at a seminar held in conjunction with the annual clinical congress of the American College of Surgeons.
Investigators from seven U.S. hospitals and three foreign medical centers singled out the reduction of superficial skin infections—often seen with sutured wounds—as the biggest advantage of the tape closure method. The scientists reported on the use of tape strips utilizing an inert adhesive with a porous backing on more than 6,000 surgical patients over a three-year period.
Dr. Robert J. Freeark, director of Surgical Education at Cook County Hospital in Chicago said the value of closure with the tape "has been clearly established" in the management of traumatic wounds."
My grandmother used honey regularly for stuff like that and once actually used powdered sugar on me.Quote:
Originally Posted by sthrnstrong
I once dropped a bottle of soda, it shattered all over the place and a piece of glass cut me on the inside of my knee. Deep cut, about 1/2" wouldn't stop bleeding. She just poured in some powdered sugar, didn't cover it and asked me to sit still for about 15min. The wound stopped bleeding, and ultimately just formed a crust. Still have a little scar to remind me how clever she was.
Honey has long been used to disinfect wounds. Many swear by cayenne pepper, but that's probably not very high on my "to try" list.Quote:
Originally Posted by sthrnstrong
A few weeks ago I got a nasty cut on my hand. regular home use superglue is NOT what you want to put on a wound. It made the tissues swell and eventually the wound reopened and was quite sore. A doctor would have been nice, but was not an option for me. A butterfly bandage and medical tape worked well. When that came off, some electrical tape did the trick, and even had a little stretch to it. Had to be applied one more time each day while working, but it was cheap and effective.
I might also disclaim that I'm no doctor either ;)
I harp about this every time it comes up. The cyanoacrylate in super glue will irritate the tissue and shouldn't be used on deep wounds. I know some of you are going to use it anyway just make certain the wound is not deep and you clean and disinfect the would before you seal it. The last thing you need is to seal dirt in your wound.
The better choice is Dermabond. It's a topical skin adhesive that also has antibacterial properties. You might consider Tegarderm especially for weird shapes like fingers and toes.
they can degrade, from exposure to any oxygen present in the packaging, exposure to radiation, etc. but they can not rot unless the packaging is compromised. they are sterilized, meaning there are no living organisms, organic spora or enzymes present as packaged. they are biologically inert until opened, or the sterile packaging is compromized.Quote:
As for expired sutures, depending on the material they are made of, the suture can rot. In addition, there could be sterility issues although that wouldn't be my first concern.
if i where you, the sterility would be my fist concern.
it's true; suturing a wound is a lot like sewing, but in sewing fabric, you needn't be concerned about sanitation, preparation of the seam to be sewed, what forign bodies may be present in the seam. a little dust still present in a garment seam will not lead the wearer to suffer septicemia or gangrenous conditions.
even an open wound is is likely to heal properly if left open to oxygen, as long as the bleeding is stopped. a closed wound, if circulation of lymph [for removal of contaminant organisms] and blood [for introduction of fresh molecular oxygen] can not be maintained, conditions for eliminating a potentially deadly infection are dramatically reduced.
unless you can properly prepare the wound for closure, be certain that is is suitable, and have access to a source of appropriate antibiotics as a backup measure, it is not an appropriate means to treat a wound unless the wound absolutely must be closed for the patient's safety.
it's not a haemostatic measure, it's not a sanitary measure. a closed wound can not be irrigated, and it can not breathe. it is only a final step in treatment of a wound after the real work of treating the wound has been accomplished, only then to keep the treated wound closed from reintroduction of contaminants.
in addition to sewing, there's something else suturing an untreated, or improperly treated wound is like:
unprotected sex with a stranger. it may go fine 100 times, when the only organisms you are exposed to are harmless ones your body already shares, or is perfectly able to manage, but it only takes the once to introduce a nasty little bacterium that will later need to be treated with antibiotics to prevent it's eventually killing you. the difference is that in this case, the trauma is what introduced the organism to the wound, and the suturing is what trapped it inside, creating conditions which allowed it to survive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by welderguy
Those staples form somewhat of an 'o' when applied. There is a special tool we use to remove them. You'd do a lot of damage trying to take some out with a pair of pliers.
Just my .02
Boker
Canid - You are correct, of course. Forgive my terminology. I only meant there could be a compromise in quality.
Sterility isn't a concern for me because suturing would be the very last thing I'd do for a wound and only then if it were painfully (forgive the pun) obvious that no other medical options were possible. As I said in my earlier post, sutures are a last ditch device for me. Then I'd be concerned about sterility.
As I read thru all the posts then go back to my original post , I like all the info and views everybody has on sutures and there use or lack of.
But Just to make a point, All I asked was what is the expiration date for , the sterility or for degrading of the suture material itself or both.
I never asked if I could still use them to close a wound on myself or someone else.
Now as far as training I was thought by a DVM how to suture calf's, and foals up after castration, as well as how to suture lacerations, could I apply that knowledge to humans sure would I most likely Not, but it is always good to have JIC.
Now the skin stapler was posted as a joke, Ive never used them seen it used or would want it used .
either I have a good immune system, did a good job cleaning my wounds before stitching, or I'm incredibly lucky. Thanks for the information CanID. I never really gave much consideration to any of that stuff.. I just wanted to stop bleeding all over everything. Gangreen is something I NEVER want to have to deal with.
Can't give rep to you, dangit, but I would if I could...
WG - You should know by now that tangents are standard fare for a thread.
I used to go off on tangents. Now I generally keep on right angles.