Congress Approved Health Care Bill

I don't want to say anything political. So instead, I'll just say "You've Gotta' Be Kidding Me!" :sneaky2:

Democratic-Controlled Congress Approved Health Care Bill

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/us_...icleid=1241479

Tommarow i will be changing my payroll exemptions to the max. i will no no longer feed this, And yes, if i have to, i will go to cash only.

Are you actually surprised?!
I could see it coming...in my sleep...light years away.
We'll just have to live with it like we do with anything else we don't like.
It's still not the end of the world.

No we dont have to roll over and live with it. No more
At what point are you willing to call it the end of the world?
How about the end of of a nation,
The end of our Repiblic,
Sorry for getting political.
But this is it
I didnt leave this country, This country left me

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Originally Posted by huntermj

Sorry for getting political.
But this is it

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Or what?
If THIS is it for you, what are you gonna do when TS really HTF?
Who in the world would you like to trade with? I'd certainly like to know if I'm missing out so I can haul a$$ while I still have a chance.

I wouldnt trade lives
with anyone.
If this is what it is, then this is what it is

Sorry, this whole thing has my Irish up.

you needn't wish to trade places with others just to want things better. its a false dilemma.

http://www.mv.com/ipusers/iainc/us-flag-flying.jpg

'bout time. I was pretty happy to see the executive order affirming language against taxpayer $ going for abortions.

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Originally Posted by LostOutrider

'bout time. I was pretty happy to see the executive order affirming language against taxpayer $ going for abortions.

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IMO this will destroy the economy of this country, decrease the quality of health care in the United States, and is marching us more quickly toward third world status.

By the way - an executive order cannot override law. Once this bill is signed into law, no executive order can change it. Only repealing it or new laws modifying it can have that affect.

I, for one, have 0 options available for health care. I've been sick for 2 weeks now and can't go to the doctor because I CANT AFFORD IT. I think it's great that my grandmother can get her medicine now. I think it's great that I don't have to front $100 that I don't have anyway to take ONE of my kids to the doctor. I have 3 kids, so if they all get sick, they either have to suffer, or we turn off the lights.

This economy needs to be destroyed. The American Dream is what's killing this country, not health care reform. It's the fattened button and pencil pushers that make $5m a year or the auto manufacturers paying workers $60 / hr to use an air wrench to tighten a bolt. It's the robots that replace workers and destroy job opportunities. Grab as much money as you can, claw your way to the top, and damn anyone that stands in the way of our gluttony. Wanna know why a basic vehicle costs us $35k instead of the $5k it costs to actually produce it? The american dream.
I for one work my *** off to make a little money and I STILL can't afford to go to the doctor. I can't remember the last time we ate out at a resturaunt. Complain all you want, but it will improve things or destroy the country as we know it. Either way, it will get better.
Something has to give. Throw some more straw on the camel.

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Originally Posted by crashdive123

IMO this will destroy the economy of this country, decrease the quality of health care in the United States, and is marching us more quickly toward third world status.

By the way - an executive order cannot override law. Once this bill is signed into law, no executive order can change it. Only repealing it or new laws modifying it can have that affect.

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Right, crash. This is what's gonna do us in, not the two wars we were unable to pay for, the historic pillaging of Social Security (in light of the aging Boomers), and the insane money thrown to prop up the 'too big to fail' set.

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Originally Posted by some wikipedia for you

Executive orders do have the full force of law since issuances are typically made in pursuance of certain Acts of Congress, some of which specifically delegate to the President some degree of discretionary power (delegated legislation), or are believed to have their authority for issuances based in a power inherently granted to the Executive by the Constitution. Congress may overturn an executive order by passing legislation in conflict with it or by refusing to approve funding to enforce it. In the former, the president retains the power to veto such a decision; however, the Congress may override a veto with a two-thirds majority to end an executive order. It has been argued that a Congressional override of an executive order is a nearly impossible event due to the supermajority vote required and the fact that such a vote leaves individual lawmakers very vulnerable to political criticism.

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As a former Insurance Agent & field underwriter I think this whole thing is nuts! 1st, lawmakers thumbed their collective noses at the voters who put them in office, 2nd, they're going to shut down an important part of the Insurance industry. 3rd, many doctors in this country who saw it coming have taken early retirement, many more are going to leave the medical profession. Others have already quit taking Medicare payments because the Government doesn't pay! 4th, It was a one-sided project planned & executed by one side of the two main political parties. 5th, it's not over by a long shot. 6th, I'd vote minority house speaker John Hoener President without hesitation! 7th, Geraldo sucks! I liked him better when he had a broken nose! :sneaky2: :cool2:

that is a good observation. several doctors in our town outright refuse to take medicare patients anymore because they aren't getting paid. The senior surgeon is retiring this year after 40+ years.
Everyone fears change, but it is the nature of the world.
I'm betting some legistlator with interest and investments in the insurance industry are behind the "fire safe cigarette" mumbo jumbo.
Is anyone else tired of this hidden agenda BS?

ycc is just one example why I am not torn up over this issue. (remember...there but for the grace of God...) SOMEthing had to be done and although this isn't ideal, it's better than nothing.

To crash's point:

"IMO this will destroy the economy of this country, decrease the quality of health care in the United States, and is marching us more quickly toward third world status."

If, of ALL the things that are wrong in this country, this one issue (that can actually help so many people) has such potential to cripple us, then maybe it's time that we as citizens and human beings reexamine who we are and what we stand for.
IMHO.

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Originally Posted by canid

you needn't wish to trade places with others just to want things better. its a false dilemma.

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You are absolutely right about the false dilemma.
But wanting things better is a relative/nebulous term. Better for whom? What's good for you may not be good for me. How about better for most? It is after all, the underpinning of democracy.

I'm with Crash on this one. I think folks failed to see the real problem here. This is not real health care reform but a health care band-aid. It does nothing to address the root causes of expensive health care. When doctor's have to pay $21,000 a month for malpractice insurance and those premiums increase 50% a year, when fraud costs Medicare $60 Billion a year then something much deeper and much worse is at the core. I think we've failed to peel the onion to get at the root of the problem.

I don't know about you but I haven't seen very many programs the Federal government has been able to run well. You named some of the reasons, LostOutRider. Why does anyone think this program will be run any better? And how many times has Washington told us it would cost XX dollars only to find out the real cost is triple the forecast?

This is a very bad omen for an already strained budget at a time when none of us can afford it. It will either result in increased taxes, decreased services or become a death knell for the economy overall. I'm a pretty optimistic guy when it comes to federal finances but I have to tell you, now I'm worried. This is not a good thing in the long run.

Old Sourdough saying, "Before Health Care Bill, fetch water, split firewood, After Health Care Bill, fetch water, split firewood".

I guess the more you are part of the system, the more you are or will be impacted, and conversely the further removed from the system the less the impact. I see this as one more wake-up call, to those tethered to the system, to extract them self with-in the next four years.

"Nothing from nothing leaves nothing, you got to have "NOTHING" if you want to be FREE".

YCC , I am sorry to hear that you have been sick,, I am in the same boat as you as far as not being able to afford to see a Doctor, Sadly, This Bill will Not help us at all, at least not yet, This bill will help the middle class some, but not the poor, I Have discussed this with MANY Canadians on another site and we Need what They Have, EVERYBODY get health care,, Canadians are ALL very happy with their system, anyway, That Said, You can still go to the Emergency Room, They HAVE to treat you, But be prepared for someone to try to help you get on welfare, They still try to recover the costs of the Visit however they can. :)

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Originally Posted by Justin

Canadians are ALL very happy with their system

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I don't know about that. I guess the ones that live close to the border are. They come come to the US to be treated.......or could.

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Originally Posted by Rick

This is a very bad omen for an already strained budget at a time when none of us can afford it. It will either result in increased taxes, decreased services or become a death knell for the economy overall. I'm a pretty optimistic guy when it comes to federal finances but I have to tell you, now I'm worried. This is not a good thing in the long run.

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OK, then let's bring it down to a human level.
What specific advice would you like to give ycc and his family for the short run?
I'd also like to hear Sourdough's advice.

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Originally Posted by Rick

I don't know about that. I guess the ones that live close to the border are. They come come to the US to be treated.......or could.

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Only if they can afford it and that is because they do not want to wait thier turn for certain things, At least thats how they have explained it, I spend a little time on a site that has been discussing this topic for the last 14 months, and there are quite a few Canadian Members, They all Agree that the Canadian Health Care system is the best thing since sliced bread .

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Originally Posted by Sourdough

I guess the more you are part of the system, the more you are or will be impacted, and conversely the further removed from the system the less the impact. I see this as one more wake-up call, to those tethered to the system, to extract them self with-in the next four years.

"Nothing from nothing leaves nothing, you got to have "NOTHING" if you want to be FREE".

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Sourdough, anything more specific you can offer ycc since apparently he hasn't seen it clear to do more, or do with less.

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Originally Posted by your_comforting_company

I, for one, have 0 options available for health care. I've been sick for 2 weeks now and can't go to the doctor because I CANT AFFORD IT. I think it's great that my grandmother can get her medicine now. I think it's great that I don't have to front $100 that I don't have anyway to take ONE of my kids to the doctor. I have 3 kids, so if they all get sick, they either have to suffer, or we turn off the lights.
I for one work my *** off to make a little money and I STILL can't afford to go to the doctor. I can't remember the last time we ate out at a resturaunt.

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Well, Now that its Law, It can be amended,, Its a waiting game . Sadly, Its the poor, like me that need it the most, and the bill has been so watered down that the poor were completely left with nothing ? oh, I am getting used to having nothing, LOL

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Originally Posted by your_comforting_company

I, for one, have 0 options available for health care. I've been sick for 2 weeks now and can't go to the doctor because I CANT AFFORD IT. I think it's great that my grandmother can get her medicine now. I think it's great that I don't have to front $100 that I don't have anyway to take ONE of my kids to the doctor. I have 3 kids, so if they all get sick, they either have to suffer, or we turn off the lights.

This economy needs to be destroyed. The American Dream is what's killing this country, not health care reform. It's the fattened button and pencil pushers that make $5m a year or the auto manufacturers paying workers $60 / hr to use an air wrench to tighten a bolt. It's the robots that replace workers and destroy job opportunities. Grab as much money as you can, claw your way to the top, and damn anyone that stands in the way of our gluttony. Wanna know why a basic vehicle costs us $35k instead of the $5k it costs to actually produce it? The american dream.
I for one work my *** off to make a little money and I STILL can't afford to go to the doctor. I can't remember the last time we ate out at a resturaunt. Complain all you want, but it will improve things or destroy the country as we know it. Either way, it will get better.
Something has to give. Throw some more straw on the camel.

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I think you're missing something, here. What you are against, is exactly what they just voted for more of. They used the excuse that some could not afford that $5k car (Health insurance.), and screamed that we need to help those people get that car. The problem is, they don't care about those people or those $5k cars. They just want control of the money and power.

The bill that they passed won't get everyone that needs it, that $5k car. Most of the people that will get that $5k car, won't get it for years, and by the way...after all the BS that is in the bill, that car now cost $35K, and they are going to take that $35k from others, by force.

Those of us that are against this thing, aren't saying that we don't want to help those who need the $5k car....we're just saying that we don't want someone taking $35k from us, so that they can control $35k, and may or may not help those who need it.

Excellent Post rwc !!!!

Green Thingy on its way ;)

Our Declaration of Independence affords us the right to "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" NOT free health insurance (of course, nothing is free, somebody has to pay for it)

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Originally Posted by rwc1969

I am one without medical insurance. I am one who had medical insurance, but could not afford to use it. LOL! I am one who lost house, virtually everything I own, and in part wife, to high medical bills, insurance premiums and prescription costs we could not afford. I am in the process of losing a kid, by marriage, to this. He is simply giving up on life because he cannot afford to properly raise his child. He's so far in debt that I can't really blame him. He's a taxpayer! I'm one who lost his 42 year old father at age 5 because he lacked health insurance and forego his own health to provide for his kids best he could. He was a taxpayer. I am one who has seen my mother grow old, insuranceless, a stroke victim at a young age, living in retirement on 500 dollars a month, 100- 200 of which goes to her one prescription blood thinner, with absolutely no insurance or help from the govt of any kind ever, in her entire life. She's a taxpayer. I am one, as ycc's kids are, that grew up without medical insurance of any kind. Too poor to afford it, and always too "wealthy?", proud, too honest, or unwilling to jump thru all the loopholes to get it for free. I'm a taxpayer, voter, and strong advocate of grass roots politics. I talk with the people in my community and become aware, an make them aware of all this hogwash and lies the politicians are stuffing down our throat via large always biased media outlets.

I always wondered how my mom did it. Now I know. By denying herself and her kids the very basic things they need to succeed and properly function in this modern world. By putting herslef and her kids at a serious disadvantage. By not letting her kids go on field trips, boyscouts, extra curricular activities, social functions, because she just plain couldn't afford to. By letting her kid grow up with a serious long term health issue that could have easily been fixed at a young age with a simple surgery, because she could not afford it.

There is abuse from lawyers and individuals, but there is way more abuse from the businesses that currently govern this system.

I don't know if this new change will help my situation or the many I know, but it will help to restrict businesses ability to cook the books and work together, unethically, to keep costs artificially high. It will bring the cost and quality of health care overall down. It will help to balance the cost of health care more equally among our citizens. It will allow small businesses an advantage. When I say small I mean small, not large corporaations with 199 employees, but small mom and pop shops. The kind of shops we need if this country is going to stay afloat.

If the govt and taxpayers can afford to buy out big business, give free money to medical companies annually, fight wars on foriegn soil, give aid to foriegn countries, and such they can also afford to put some of that money into the pockets of the folks that are truly keeping this country going on the most basic level.

Why are republicans and the big business they represent in such a ruffle over this? because they know it's signaling the end of the free reign they've had. Free reign that no other business in america has had the luxury of in many years. They know that despite what they say, they will continue to operate here in america, because that's where the money is.

As Rick and others here are always saying, "If they don't like it they can leave". Don't let the door hit ya in the *** on the way out. Let's send em packing and not allow them to export their products to us from whatever third world country they choose to exploit next.

I'm not republican or democrat, but I do know when someone's trying to pull the wool over my eyes. I've never seen so much false, flat out lying and bogus propaganda come from the republican party in all my life. "the american people" my ***! They start every sentence with that phrase. If you substitute "the american people" with the big corporations, or the special interest groups, or the wealthiest 10% of american people, then most of what they said would be true. But, when you start every sentence out by saying "the amercain people" it' all becomes lies and propaganda.

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So, does this make it Ok, to steal it from others?

btw, I feel the pain too. We are in debt up to our eyeballs due to medical expenses from last year alone (to the tune of $10,000 and that is WITH insurance). However, that does not mean that I want to give up the freedom to choose for myself.

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Originally Posted by BENESSE

Are you actually surprised?!
I could see it coming...in my sleep...light years away.
We'll just have to live with it like we do with anything else we don't like.
It's still not the end of the world.

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So, you are OK, with them taking a big crap on our founding documents?

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Originally Posted by Justin Case

Only if they can afford it and that is because they do not want to wait thier turn for certain things, At least thats how they have explained it, I spend a little time on a site that has been discussing this topic for the last 14 months, and there are quite a few Canadian Members, They all Agree that the Canadian Health Care system is the best thing since sliced bread .

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I don't agree that our health care system is the best thing since sliced bread at all. In fact, I've personally seen a number of doctors especially in smaller towns in this country that leave a lot of questions about their own qualifications unanswered every time they open their mouths. There are also a lot of advanced treatments and diagnostic tests that are either unavailable here or there are waiting lists that are months long. I don't know if it's the same in other provinces or not. These are just personal observations, mostly from what friends and family members have gone through, I seldom use our health care system simply because I seldom get sick.

Having said that, I'd like to share this little anecdote with you all. When I lived way up north in the '80's I conversed with a doctor there who was originally from South Africa. It was easier for him to get into his profession in the US if he came in from Canada rather than any other country in the world. He agreed to a two year work stint in Northern Manitoba in exchange for getting all of his papers basically rubber stamped to get him in. He told me as soon as the 2 years were up on his contract he was moving to the US. I asked him if the money was really that much better and he said basically as soon as you step over the 49th parallel, it increases ten fold and keeps going up as you head south. Now, that tells us at least two things right? One, Canada's going to continue to lose it's best and brightest in health care and two, someone is paying for those doctors in the US, the end-user, the patient.

Well, hell, let's all just sit on our arses and collect from those with more money. Sooner or later those bringing in the bucks are going to get tired and take their toys to play elsewhere. Then where will we be?

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Originally Posted by Justin Case

They HAVE to treat you, But be prepared for someone to try to help you get on welfare, They still try to recover the costs of the Visit however they can. :)

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Originally Posted by rwc1969

or unwilling to jump thru all the loopholes to get it for free.

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This sounds like y'all are to proud, or to stubborn to admit that you need help, but you have no problem with someone taking what someone else has, and give it to you?

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Originally Posted by rwc1969

They're stealing from us right now. IMO, It's not stealing, it's adding accountabilty and ethics to a machine that has been rolling down the tracks like a snow ball headed for hell. It's putting some level of balance to the stealing part you suggest.

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My point is, that the bill that they just passed, is not helping any of those problems. In fact, it will make them much worse.

They use the propaganda that you are repeating, to try and sell it, but that's all it is. Don't take anyone's word for it. Read it for yourself. The info is out there. It's a really, really bad deal.

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Originally Posted by mountain mama

Well, hell, let's all just sit on our arses and collect from those with more money. Sooner or later those bringing in the bucks are going to get tired and take their toys to play elsewhere. Then where will we be?

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Nonsense ! Its about a screwed up economy, Yes there are some users, But there are hundreds of thousands of people who would rather work than not, EVERYONE should be entitled to health care, This subject should have been dealt with YEARS ago. This BS of 100 dollar aspirins in hospitals HAS to Stop !

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Originally Posted by 2dumb2kwit

This sounds like y'all are to proud, or to stubborn to admit that you need help, but you have no problem with someone taking what someone else has, and give it to you?

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I never said I was Proud, I was just stating a Fact, Thats how it works, I cant change that, are people supposed to let their children die ? or should they go on welfare ? Everyone seems to forget, There are a LOT of people , myself included that has worked my whole adult life until recently, and I have Paid Taxes through the nose, do i feel guilty getting food stamps right now,, NOPE, not one iota. I have Never abused the welfare system , but there are many who have, and I agree , thats not a good thing,

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Originally Posted by Justin Case

Nonsense ! Its about a screwed up economy, Yes there are some users, But there are hundreds of thousands of people who would rather work than not, EVERYONE should be entitled to health care, This subject should have been dealt with YEARS ago. This BS of 100 dollar aspirins in hospitals HAS to Stop !

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No one is entitled to health care. Period.
Now you are correct about the system being screwed up, but this bill is going to screw it up much worse. If you do not understand that, then I suggest that you do some research.

The entitlement crowd is the reason for the $100 aspirins.

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Originally Posted by rwc1969

This reform has nothing to do with freedom to choose, or our constitution. that's just nazi propaganda.

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If you believe that, you are not equipped to have this conversation.

Good luck, in the future.

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Originally Posted by mountain mama

Our Declaration of Independence affords us the right to "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" NOT free health insurance (of course, nothing is free, somebody has to pay for it)

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Where does foreign aid and "nation building" fit in there? Does it come under the pursuit of happiness?
How about propping up failed corporations? Does that go under life or liberty?
It's been so long since someone cleared that up for me.

I think I will leave this subject alone now, I have made Many good friends here and thats the way I would like to keep it,, The Bill Passed, and is a signature away from being Law, I guess all we can do is wait and see what happens next, and just for the record, I am not a Republican or Democrat either, I consider myself a Free thinker, :) So with a Firm Handshake to everyone here , Lets talk about fishing or something .


http://www.sea-ex.com/fishospeak/fishing-cartoon.jpg