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Hey knifemakers. I was doing some reading on flint and steel type fires and came across some info that indicated the back of a knife could be tempered to throw sparks and leave the blade-part itself tempered to hold an edge.. I'm wondering about the validity of whatever you call this "local/isolated tempering". Specifically, I wonder if it's something we could do at home to an old knife to have a sort of multi-tool.
I get off on a tangent sometimes.. bear with me lol:tongue_smilie:
What is the criteria for throwing sparks? A carbon steel knife can be differentially hardened so that the edge is hard and the spine is tough...this is how I do mine but I guess I didnt know that I couldnt get sparks with a hardened steel.
maybe something to experiment with Camp. I really don't know squat about steels. I don't know squat about much at all really, but steel is really far down that list lol. some steels throw sparks better than others, and I am under the impression that different tempers behave differently also. I just thought you guys might bounce it around and come up with something ;)
I've played around with a couple I have made and hardened to get sparks using the spine on natural flint. I've had varying degrees of success, and am not sure what the differences were other than maybe inconsistencies with my heat treat. I seem to have that stabilized now, and will experiment with the next few I make.
Well, I will play with it some and see what I come up with. You can take a carbon steel knife and pass a torch along the spine evenly until the color changes to a blueish color and this will bring it to a spring hardness. Be careful not to let the color get to the edge (dunk it in water if you have to) or it will make a soft spot and your knife will dull faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by your_comforting_company
When I heat treat my knives, I put a block on my quench pan to make sure that just the edge will be submersed in the oil. I am careful to get all the egde quenched but none of the spine. You can see if it worked with most steels because the scale will fall from the hardened steel but stay on the spine.
I haven't played with natural flint much. I have found with a firesteel the higher the carbon content of the knife it seems to work better. I do know stainless won't work that well if at all with a firesteel. It also helps to have a squared spine on your knife. This is something i would like to experiment more with too.
Well guys, picked this up from Dixie Gun Works awhile back, patch knife with fire steel on the handle.
I have real good luck with old file pieces as strikers, so I'm guessing that you still want a pretty hard "striking surface".
Looking at this version, seems that maybe the blade was softened and the tang rehardened as the "steel".
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y13...CT0768crop.jpg
Y'all are right, Photobucket has made it harder to get codes and such, I guessing they are gonna be wanting some money???????
It doesn't seem to make a lot of difference, some are better than others. Probably due to tempering or hardness that we really can't measure. I have a few scraps I will try but sounds like a piece of file which is very hard works best.
I do grind down the "file" part so the edges are smoothed out some.
I would think with all the "file/rasp knives" being turned into works of art, lately, that they would be good as strikers.
I thought it was the higher carbon content and hardness= the most sparks.??
I have many knives and only a few throw good sparks.
I was wondering how you tell the carbon content of a knife?
I feel like I may be kicking a dead horse here. but it's rainy today, and my back still hurts so I'm bored out of my mind. none of my projects will dry out so... I found this information which doesn't really tell me much about differential tempering, but I'm gonna go dig around in the shed and see if I can find an old broken file or something. the firebox in the chop shop has a nice bed of coals, so I'm sure I can get it hot, but to be honest I really don't know what I'm doing, so I thought I'd request someone post up how to make your own firesteel from junk. seems pretty straightforward and I'm gonna give it a go, pass or fail. It's be great if someone could humor me and give up some info on this. remember I don't know anything about it at all so you gotta talk to me like I don't know anything about it at all lol.
Thanks in advance. I took the notion on the idea that you could find metal junk strewn about and if you could build a fire to start with, you could do something like this and make stuff. Good starting point for me anyway, to learn more about the natures of metals. Wish me luck lol!
The link is a very accurate description of how to make one IMHO. Any specific questions? I like the one from the link pictured to the right in the first picture. It would make a nice key fob that would also hook on your beltloop.
I don't know how to tell what kind of steel said object is made of. I got some ideas about where to look from that page. I tried an old hog-ring looking piece that was out there, and a rusty old allen wrench which I would have thought surely was hard steel, but when I heated it to the point it would no longer stick to the magnet of a 10" speaker, and quenched in water, I still got no spark. I tried several different types of rock, I don't know if they are flint, but it's more likely jaspers and cherts and corals. The Kentucky Hornstone that Poco sent wouldn't spark it either. most have been cooked by my knapping buddy. some were raw.
I'm sure I'm overcomplicating things again as I usually tend to, but I'm definately missing something in the equation lol.
other things I found to try: broken drill bits, old sawzall blades, 1/4" driver extension thing (not sure what it is really), one leg off some forged shears, a broken claw hammer claw.. lots of junk around lol.
Any old files or springs...leafsprings?
any steel with plenty of carbon, tempered to or near full hard should be great. the rest is practice. i'm not very good at flint and steel sparking.
How do you know if steel is high carbon?
by knowing what it came from, by testing it's hardness at full hard, and to some extent by the characteristics of the sparks it throws off while grinding
I see, thanks!
Theres a junkyard up the road but it'd be quite an ordeal I'd imagine to get a leaf spring into a rod-shape.. I'm keeping my eye open for any old springs or files I can get my hands on. The ones I have I use pretty regularly so I really don't wanna mess those up. I might do some diggin-around in the junkyard when I have time. Thanks for your patience and tips!
I've used a ferrocerium rod a time or two, but really thought I could make my own. for now I'll stick with bic! This is an interesting project, but I gotta find some material to work with! I'm going to a blacksmithing meeting in April in Havana. Maybe I can grab up the metal and experience there.
I wonder if drum brake parts are high carbon?
that's a pretty good idea.. of course I don't know the answer. Is there somebody out there who could tell us some junk stuff that would work besides the obvious files and leaf springs? Like are my drill bits high carbon? they're sure as heck brittle and broken. I see you guys using saw blades for knives.. wouldn't hacksaw and sawzall blades be just as good? I got tons of those hardened yellow bolts, and forged shears. Gotta be something besides leaf springs to grind down into a nice 1/2" rod.
Kinda why I wanted somebody to explain it. I'm kinda backwards from most folks.. I gotta understand the fundamentals of something (why it works) in order to understand how to do it. My logic says that the metal should be soft enough for the rock to cut off a tiny piece; metal is normally harder than rock. hit a boulder with a 8lb sledge and the rock breaks; rocks that are highly siliceous often will throw sparks against one another, although small and unsustained. that indicates to me that "glassy" rocks, or those with fine crystalline structure should work whether heat treated or not; if not, there would be a "rougher" surface causing more friction because the rock hasn't "fused". heck I have some rocks that will strike a small spark on each other out there now but hit it on 20 different metal thingies layin around and none throw sparks like Bear Frills on the magic box.
according to what I've read, this thinking is wrong, maybe even backwards! but in my crude way of thinking it makes sense. somebody please enlighten me lol!
I dunno, maybe metal just isn't my thing lol. sticks and stones, yeah!
and for the record.. I was really just wanting to play with my rocks, and who's really gonna tell the caveman he can't bang them on something? :smash:
Okay.. I went to my parents today to goof around and me and dad got out in the shop and started torching anything that looked hard. We tried lawnmower blades, files, hardened bolts, all kinds of things. I took 5 different kinds of "flint" with me to try also, some of which will spark against themselves and other rocks.
The file worked best BUT it did NOT throw sparks the way I had imagined. I'm afraid If I had to start a fire like that, I would be cold. We both tried for about 10 minutes each and he looked at me and asked if it would take me that long to make fire with sticks. I told him "No. We'd have had a fire 15 minutes ago with sticks". I'm sorely disappointed in the metal. Hey Rick, how much for one of them fancy spark throwers like you sell? We used WAY more fuel and good files, bits, etc. than what it was worth.. at least my sticks will grow back.
We are missing something from the equation. Neither of us knows what it is, but after todays experiments, I'm pushing that to the side as something I can't make myself. Oh well, that's how you learn!
If you are making spark, you can make fire. You just need something to catch the spark, I think. Did you use char cloth? All char cloth needs is a single spark and you're on your way to a warm fire.
I found this YCC. I was hunting for the steel type used in a bic lighter and struck out but this has some info that might be useful in your quest.
http://www.rutabaga.com/page.asp?pgid=65
No sir. Not gonna do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by your_comforting_company
On a serious note YCC. You won't get a big shower of sparks with your natural flint. As Rick said - char cloth works great and only takes a single spark to work.
Looking at the Rutabaga site Camp10 showed, It said W-1 steel, Isn't that what files are usually made from?
YCC to test the flint I find, I use an old Buck Creek Carbon steel pocketknife. That sparks great on the Hornstone or whatever type of flint it is that I have. Maybe someone will know what type of Carbon steel that would be.
I tried to catch it in my standard tindle. dandelion (I used thistle) fluff, and dried grass. I guess with all that fire going we should have made some char-cloth to try lol. The sparks we were getting were like the 4 shown on the picture on the link. a small spark here, a little one there, never onto the tindle, and never very many at a time or any that would burn for more than the blink of an eye.
poco, I got a second confirmation on that rock being hornstone. One of the few that should not be cooked. It already flakes so cleanly there is no need to cook it. It threw a few sparks (I knew that was good flint so I brought a piece to try) pretty much like the other flints I found around here. Maybe I just had my hopes too high for this.. really expecting more of a "shower of sparks" than a few random flying ones.
Thanks for the tips guys. I'll have another go at it when I come across some more metal things to try.
Oh yeah, we broke the file. I didn't realize it would get so brittle that my little rock would break it!!
when i say high carbon, i mean steel. e.g. it is extremely difficult to get acceptable sparking with iron.Quote:
Originally Posted by rwc1969
mild steel or better is what you are looking for. do you want to know if a scrap piece of steel has got a decent carbon content? ask your self what it was used for. if it's a mechanical part which was meant to be subjected to repeated stress, they probably didn't make it from pig iron.
want to be extra sure? get yourself a piece of flint. strike your part on it until you get sparks, and then strike a piece of rebar with it. if the sparks from our piece are twice as easy to strike, trail twice as long before fading out, etc, then it's a steel part.
it's even easier if you have a grinder, cutoff wheel, etc. when ground at high speed the sparks from steel are much brighter than those of iron, longer lived, and even like to fork, or 'burst' in the air. this is also more pronounced in hardened steel than in annealed stock.
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