Les quits in Kalahari

so basically, if that was a real situation and no help arrives....and there's no safety camp "just a few hours walk away"...he'd be dead? same goes for most of the scenarios in his shows since he focuses mostly on staying put and waiting for help to arrive.

just like the Korean guy who got stuck in a snow drift in Oregon. they were lighting signal fires, the tires, etc... but after 6 days, running out of resources and things got desperate (especially with his wife and infant child), he had to go for help and died.

yeah he is starting to dissapoint me

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Originally Posted by pilgrim

yeah he is starting to dissapoint me

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Yes, because you'd have done much better.

Idiot.

Idiot? my point is that he is starting to use more and more gear and seems to be moving farther away from surviving naturally. Dont get me wrong you should use anything you can find to help you survive but what if you dont have all of those luxuries?

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Originally Posted by SOE digital

Yes, because you'd have done much better.

Idiot.

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Why the name calling?

Maybe he is finaly getting the real picture, you don't have to be naive and go out into the wilds with nothing but a sheepish smile.

The best way is to teach/show beginners how to survive comfortably with knowledge and equipment and when they are competant start exploring the more simple/spartan aspects of survival.
Gradualy improving your skill and competance through experience.

Many are refering to the Korean fellow who lost his life and endangered the lives of his wife and child. Hero I don't think so, when you deliberatly go out and expose your self to a risky situation without first getting a modicum of knowledge (survival, road condition, road access), equipment (car kit, clothes, sleeping bags etc..), extra foods, thing happen. His family came out of it alright, he unfortunately succumb to exposure, to sad to be anything else.
Last Dec we came accross exactly such a situation with an African proffessor who had driven off the road in a snow storm with nothing at all as far as kit, clothes (summer weight), food, emergency car supplies, etc... His family would have ended up as popsicles by next morning if we hadn't come along, they were already showing signs of hypothermia, we got them warmed up, hydrated, fed, and extracted them from the ditch, followed them out to the nearest town. Could have easily been like the Korean fellow, they fortunately didn't have to pay the price.
Ray Mears, Ron Hood and others try to teach real skills, not just "flash" effect of wilderness/urban survival, dull maybe but it will get you out if you pay attention and practise.

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Originally Posted by carcajou garou

Many are refering to the Korean fellow who lost his life and endangered the lives of his wife and child. Hero I don't think so, when you deliberatly go out and expose your self to a risky situation without first getting a modicum of knowledge (survival, road condition, road access), equipment (car kit, clothes, sleeping bags etc..), extra foods, thing happen. His family came out of it alright, he unfortunately succumb to exposure, to sad to be anything else.

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wait now, i could be wrong...but from what i've read, this Korean guy, his wife and infant child....STAYED put for about 6 days. they were doing things like burning their tires and parts of their car for warmth, signaling, etc... they must have had food in the car too... but after SIX days with an infant child, they must have ran out of things to burn for warmth and/or ran out of food. what would YOU do if your child and wife were in that situation where help hasn't arrived or may never arrive?

not sure whether he was a survivalist or anything, but he did the right thing of staying still until his supplies ran out. and his dead body was found which was how they found his stranded wife and child. maybe he wrote a note about them and put it in his wallet.

you question his foresight of packing for a road trip during the snow season in Oregon....but he did manage to keep 3 people alive for 6 days in the freezing cold....so he must have planned adequately for clothing, food, blankets, etc....for 6 days....that's a lot of days. actually more than 6 days, because he wife and child were still alive when rescued. my guess was that the kid was going to die because they're running out of food. what would any father do in such situation?

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Originally Posted by carcajou garou

Ray Mears, Ron Hood and others try to teach real skills, not just "flash" effect of wilderness/urban survival, dull maybe but it will get you out if you pay attention and practise.

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i wouldn't call any of these shows dull. but Bear's show focuses more on finding a way out....and fast, which is also just as relevant as Les' show focusing on staying put and waiting for help for 7 days.

not saying that Les couldn't do the same should he have a camera crew lugging all the equipment for him.....but one significant factor is that Bear is an accomplished climber. one of the best to have been able to climb Mt. Everest. and this climbing skills gives him an edge over Les in all terrains. i've never climbed big rocks before, nor plan to...but should i get stuck in such situation....Bear's show have taught me some techniques for climbing, while Les have not.

Where the Korean gentlemen was stranded, from an airphoto showed was heavily wooded area.
Question being, why not make a shelter, use wood to heat instead of his tires...
Not dumping on him but he was where he couldn't handle the situation. His wife and child were found and subsequently he was, he not really that far from the area where the vehicle was stranded.
the idea is that he totaly out of his element he should have stayed on an interstate or delayed until the storm had past.
Hindsight is great but foresight is better.
This is just to show that knoledge and trainning will enhance your chance but life in itself is not safe, so s**t happens
Bear also showed you to jump into water when you didn't know the bottom..
Oh yes running from a perceived grizzly?
When false techniques are shown then which one should I believe thereafter? Especialy if I am not knowledgable in that aspect to start of with.
I will stay with the less flashy instructors..kind of reminds me of the tortoise and the hare.

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Originally Posted by carcajou garou

Maybe he is finaly getting the real picture, you don't have to be naive and go out into the wilds with nothing but a sheepish smile.

The best way is to teach/show beginners how to survive comfortably with knowledge and equipment and when they are competant start exploring the more simple/spartan aspects of survival.
Gradualy improving your skill and competance through experience.

Many are refering to the Korean fellow who lost his life and endangered the lives of his wife and child. Hero I don't think so, when you deliberatly go out and expose your self to a risky situation without first getting a modicum of knowledge (survival, road condition, road access), equipment (car kit, clothes, sleeping bags etc..), extra foods, thing happen. His family came out of it alright, he unfortunately succumb to exposure, to sad to be anything else.
Last Dec we came accross exactly such a situation with an African proffessor who had driven off the road in a snow storm with nothing at all as far as kit, clothes (summer weight), food, emergency car supplies, etc... His family would have ended up as popsicles by next morning if we hadn't come along, they were already showing signs of hypothermia, we got them warmed up, hydrated, fed, and extracted them from the ditch, followed them out to the nearest town. Could have easily been like the Korean fellow, they fortunately didn't have to pay the price.
Ray Mears, Ron Hood and others try to teach real skills, not just "flash" effect of wilderness/urban survival, dull maybe but it will get you out if you pay attention and practise.

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I agree here. There's nothing wrong with carrying as much gear as you can, provided you don't overdo. Survival isn't some game where you try to see who can go out into the woods with the least amount of equipment, it's being as prepared as you possibly can!:cool:

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Originally Posted by SOE digital

Yes, because you'd have done much better.

Idiot.

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SOE, please respect the rules and knock off the name-calling, okay? Chris has posted the rules and that one is a violation. I don't want to see you get in trouble. We know where you're coming from anyway.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Sarge47

I agree here. There's nothing wrong with carrying as much gear as you can, provided you don't overdo. Survival isn't some game where you try to see who can go out into the woods with the least amount of equipment, it's being as prepared as you possibly can!:cool:

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Here, here! It's the numpties with nothing that end up dead more often than not. My jeep is packed at all times with enough for me and mine to live reasonably comfortable for several days. It'd be remiss NOT to.

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Originally Posted by carcajou garou

Where the Korean gentlemen was stranded, from an airphoto showed was heavily wooded area.
Question being, why not make a shelter, use wood to heat instead of his tires...

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maybe wood/heat was not his concern for leaving his location.

SIX days. six days is a lot to plan for food on a road trip. even a camping trip, that's a hell of a long time and lots of food to plan for 2 adults and a baby. yet, they sustained for 6 days. it was probably due to running out of baby food and or formula. during the dead of winter, what's his chance of finding food? look how successful Les has been at finding food in the snow climates. and he can't just give an infant child Doritos.

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Not dumping on him but he was where he couldn't handle the situation. His wife and child were found and subsequently he was, he not really that far from the area where the vehicle was stranded.

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no, his dead body lead the rescuers to his wife and child. he probably wrote a note and left it in his wallet should he not make it (as that's the first thing someone would check..his identity).

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the idea is that he totaly out of his element he should have stayed on an interstate or delayed until the storm had past.
Hindsight is great but foresight is better.

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i'm only here, on a survival forum is due to watching Les and Bear....thus a complete noob. before this, i didn't even know why you shouldn't sweat in a freezing climate during a survival situation. lots of people still risks it to go skiing, etc. because they've planned it w/work, etc. and didn't know how deadly the weather can be. you're asking a lot from this Korean guy who's probably just a regular guy from the city..yet still managed to sustain his family for 6 days. that's more than Les because there were 2 adults and an infant.

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This is just to show that knoledge and trainning will enhance your chance but life in itself is not safe, so s**t happens

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true. and your mind would falter even more when you've got a crying infant that's not getting the adequate feeding after 6 days.

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Bear also showed you to jump into water when you didn't know the bottom..

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wait, are you talking about one of the shows in Season 2? i just saw it and he used a vine and rock to measure the depth before he jumped. and he clearly stated that the last time he jumped w/o measuring (no for the show), he hurt his back and will never do it again.

also, Bear is an extreme adventurist....watching his show does not mean that i can accomplish nor should even attempt the more dangerous things that he does. just like how i can watch the UFC and still learn from their techniques but not necessarily need to attempt everything that they do on TV.

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Oh yes running from a perceived grizzly?
When false techniques are shown then which one should I believe thereafter? Especialy if I am not knowledgable in that aspect to start of with.
I will stay with the less flashy instructors..kind of reminds me of the tortoise and the hare.

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still doesn't answer the initial question....Les failed to survive for 7 days and had to walk to the "designated safety camp". this is just as fake as a guy in a bear suit. there is no designated safety camp if it were for real. and the premise of Les' show is to survive for 7 days...why is this better than Bear finding his way out in 2-3 days? they're both a tossup. because Les would have been dead there weren't any designated safety camp.

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Originally Posted by Fog_Harbor

Here, here! It's the numpties with nothing that end up dead more often than not. My jeep is packed at all times with enough for me and mine to live reasonably comfortable for several days. It'd be remiss NOT to.

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this Korean guy in question sustained himself, his wife and infant child for SIX DAYS in the dead of winter. i'm pretty sure he had more food than you in his car.

The Korean guy did not have a note on him. It was found on a road. His body did not lead the rescuers to his family. His family was found first and then his body two day later. They were not prepared for the situation. They had urban clothes. They were on a vacation so they had suitcases full of clothes. Pure accident. They had crackers and baby food, and berries from nearby. They did not have plenty of food.

The whole point is that the Korean guy put himself in a situation he was not prepared for. He tried to take a shortcut and it didn't work. No one is denying that what he did was amazing.

And Les had an option so I'm sure he was far from his limit.

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Originally Posted by saiga7

this Korean guy in question sustained himself, his wife and infant child for SIX DAYS in the dead of winter. i'm pretty sure he had more food than you in his car.

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Uh, Saiga, we have another thread, or several of them actually for the "Bear vs. Les" debate. Please move your comments over to one of those. You're really going out on a limb here trying to defend someone you don't even know and who certainly doesn't know you. Bear can run through HIS survival course because he has his "people" with him constantly, and when it gets tough going he heads for a local Inn. Les knows when to call it quits because there is no earthly reason to have a "survival" show where the dude dies. Not to mention the liability problems the Discovery network would face. As far as the "Kim" family goes how do you know so much about them, were you there? my kid brother knew Mr' Kim from his buisness with the Caterpiller corporation and Mr. Kim was a total Nimrod out in the woods who made a serious mistake that cost him his life and nearly the lives of his family. Let's try to learn here from every one else's teaching as well as their mstakes and not turn this into a debating forum, OK?:cool:

another question about Les' show. if his premise was to stay situated for 7 days and wait for rescue....why doesn't he make a signal fire on every show and keep it going? especially during the daytime when he should have a separate smoke fire (while at night he's got the campfire that's visable).

if he had to double his effort in gathering wood for the signal fire...imagine the extra complaining about how hot, cold, wet, hungry, thirsty, etc...he is because of having to find extra wood. then after he's done complaining.... he'd play some blues on his harmonica...which is music about complaining.

and has any rescuer mistakenly come to help him because they saw his fire at night....ever? not to my knowledge from any of the shows at all. and he doesn't show us how to look for a way out and/or more effectively look for water.

while Bear stages some of his activities....but the key point is that he's explaining the techniques of achieving them. ie. when he recently saw 2 trouts in that stream. they were probably put their by the crew.....but i never even thought about barricade the fishes in like that until i saw the show. while with Les, you just hear him whine about not being able to catch anything.

so in a real desert survival situation with limited water (because nobody goes on a hike or a dirtbike ride with even a gallon water), it's still a coin toss whether to stay put and wait for rescue or to go out and find (or get closer) to civilization. i find both shows valuable.

Saiga7, Kim was found after his family, if he would have stayed he would have been Ok, cold but Ok.
They weren't ready, they were returning from a thanksgiving weekend. They weren't bush wise.

As for how much food I carry well I'm anal on that and other points we carry over a weks worth plus water. The vehicle is "bush ready" all the time.

As I have stated before I have taken out others in very similar circumstances and have never lost anyone under my watch.

Spent way to much time in the bush guiding people out and getting to old to argue my point.

You don't want listen fine.
Enjoy your life.

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Originally Posted by criticalmass

The Korean guy did not have a note on him. It was found on a road. His body did not lead the rescuers to his family. His family was found first and then his body two day later. They were not prepared for the situation. They had urban clothes. They were on a vacation so they had suitcases full of clothes.

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do you have a link to all of this. i've been searching for it as i'm very interested in reading about it. notice how i said in my post that "i could be wrong" about my recollection of this story. i remember reading a memorial page about him on a high tech product website....as he was an employee there. did he say in the car for 6 days before trekking out on his own?

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Pure accident. They had crackers and baby food, and berries from nearby. They did not have plenty of food.

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this further proves my point then that he did what ANY father with a starving, cold.... infant and desperate wife would have done by going out for help.

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And Les had an option so I'm sure he was far from his limit.

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how far? he only managed to get a thimble sized water extraction from his urine and the plastic bag on a tree. he was complaining about serious dehydration, thus had to quit and head for the safety camp. if that situation were real, he'd be in a hell of a lot of trouble. with ZERO water, he would have had to go look for some in his dehydrated state......how long would he have lasted from that point? while Bear would have started out fresh with water, looking for a way out on day 1.

EDIT: here, i found a bunch of links form where James Kim worked (C-Net.com)

http://tinyurl.com/2a9nps

he was lost for 11 DAYS. himself, wife, 4 yr old daughter and 7 month old daughter.

nobody can say that 11 days with a wife, a child and an infant is not an accomplishment. any father would have trekked out like he did after the food was gone.

and it was his FOOTPRINTS in the snow that lead the rescuers to his car to save his wife and children.

did he make mistakes, sure. but survived pretty well given his situation...and for kept his wife and children alive for 11 days is quite an accomplishment....with maybe his last, saving them.

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Originally Posted by carcajou garou

Saiga7, Kim was found after his family, if he would have stayed he would have been Ok, cold but Ok.
They weren't ready, they were returning from a thanksgiving weekend. They weren't bush wise.

As for how much food I carry well I'm anal on that and other points we carry over a weks worth plus water. The vehicle is "bush ready" all the time.

As I have stated before I have taken out others in very similar circumstances and have never lost anyone under my watch.

Spent way to much time in the bush guiding people out and getting to old to argue my point.

You don't want listen fine.
Enjoy your life.

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well, the premise of my thread is questioning what Les is teaching on his show and how staying situated may not always be the wisest choice.

i'm not questioning your abilities, but unless you can tell the future, i don't see how you can predict such a situation such as this episode with Les in the Kalahari desert.

and my main argument about the Korean guy is that he did what most fathers would do in such a situation with an infant child and wife ....after SIX days in the cold....which was to go find help.