the psychology of surviving

Wareagle just mentioned starting a new thread on this and I was composing a response and thought "yeah, there's probably a lot of thoughts about this"

I'm amazed at the stories I've read, seen and heard over the years of people surviving extraordinarily traumatic situations. Usually people who were unprepared and untrained as well. Situations from natural disasters, being lost in forests or mountains or blizzards, urban disasters, criminal and terrorist attacks, and often with debilitating or life-threatening injuries. So often, it seems like the refusal to give in, the will to live is what kept people going. In many cases I've heard that thoughts of loved ones were the motivation people needed or simply seeing that no one else was taking control of a situation, so the person did. There's been tons of stuff published on informal or natural leadership. I'm sure people would have done better with some level of training, obviously.

I was involved in a car accident once where another car hit a SUV hard enough that it flew across the road and hit my car. Luckily, I was uninjured but had to crawl very gingerly through a broken window to get out. I walked away and sat down on the curb to sort of collect myself, the entire intersection was filled with wreckage and the guy in the SUV and a passenger in the car that caused it were injured slightly. One motorist got out of his car, attended to the injured until the EMT's arrived and directed traffic, all very professionally, until the police arrived. Then he came over and checked on me. He did an awesome job of assessing the needs and addressing the situation. He must have had some kind of training, but by the time the police were done with me, I never got a chance to ask him or thank him, he'd moved on. But, I'd love to hear other people's perspectives here

Yes, this would be a most interesting post

Without a doubt, the will and desire to stay alive is the number one major factor.

I see that there are several Christian members, so please take no offense, but I am an atheist who believes that faith plays a big part in everyone's day-to-day survival, and in a wilderness survival situation it increases. Just the faith that you WILL survive, that you WILL get through this.

Even the bad survival books agree that a positive mental outlook is paramount to survival. Yes, you will have your doubts and frustrations, your depression and your apathy at times, but underlying all that is still the will to survive, and the faith that you will.

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Originally Posted by Fog_Harbor

Without a doubt, the will and desire to stay alive is the number one major factor.

I see that there are several Christian members, so please take no offense, but I am an atheist who believes that faith plays a big part in everyone's day-to-day survival, and in a wilderness survival situation it increases. Just the faith that you WILL survive, that you WILL get through this.

Even the bad survival books agree that a positive mental outlook is paramount to survival. Yes, you will have your doubts and frustrations, your depression and your apathy at times, but underlying all that is still the will to survive, and the faith that you will.

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No offense taken Dawg, your part of the Wolf pack now!

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Originally Posted by Fog_Harbor

Even the bad survival books agree that a positive mental outlook is paramount to survival. ... but underlying all that is still the will to survive, and the faith that you will.

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See how I messed with your quote dude? Just for the parts I want to refer to. I think that it's essential for people to realize, those reading here who haven't been in those situations, that keeping that positive mental outlook is pretty much out of the question when you're shivering in a rain/snow storm watching your last match burn out and your fire not start. Or watching your gear floating down a river while you hang onto the bottom of your boat because it's upside down. Or come back to your camp and realize that real life Yogi's kind of make a mess when they filch your pic-a-nic basket. The reason I picked that piece out of Fog-Harbor's quote (and I agree with him wholeheartedly) is just that....it's easy to read a posting or a book and nod our heads and say "Oh yeah, positive attitude" If a person hasn't been in those situations, I suggest asking yourself what you're going to do in that situation before you leave home, after it's on you, it could be too late. The will to live has indeed saved a lot of lives, but hypothermia has taken quite a few too. Who is it here that keeps saying "be prepared, always be prepared?" Listen to that guy, prepare mentally.

Go Wolfpack!

See how I messed with your quote dude?

I messed back...

Or watching your gear floating down a river while you hang onto the bottom of your boat because it's upside down.

Been there, several times.

Anyway, I agree with Trax, and i think I posted elsewhere on the forum that the mental exercise of "If ____________ happens, I will _____________" is one that needs to take place whenever there is a spare moment to do so. That's 'training the brain' as I call it.

I think its irresponsible for any outdoor enthusiast, regardless of their activity of choice, to trek out of sight of civilization without some modicum of survival training.

oh my goodness, and you used fat letters too! Must be serious, anyway, I agree. Know what p***es me off? Search and rescue, if most of the people that went hustling off into the woods followed even a smidge (there I go using those scientific measurements--a smidge) of fog_harbor's advice, we probably wouldn't need the wellmeaning men and women of search and rescue risking their lives looking for their sorry a@@es. Know what I mean?

it comes down to the right attitude, which is what we started this discussion about, that man with the least needs still had a strong will to survive I'd say. One of the best lines I ever heard was in a movie years ago, one character asks another "did you always think you'd die peacefully in your sleep?" the guy responds affirmatively. "Then how did you ever get the courage to go to sleep at night?"

I can't possibly prepare for the out of control drunk driver, or the suicide bomber, or any myriad of other things. I can prepare mentally to be aware of what my own needs are and if I'm going into an environment where there are greater challenges in meeting those needs, be aware of that and what I may have to do to address my needs. Personally, my own death isn't something I particularly fear, I'd prefer a fast one to a long lingering painful one, but I don't get to make that choice. On the other hand, my own death isn't something I'm rushing out to embrace with open arms. Some people who venture out into the wilderness strike me as though they might be, whether they are aware of it or not.

There are a LOT of people I've met on my journey through this spectacular world who I would love to take on a trek of some kind just so they can realize how fundamental their real needs are. I don't mean to judge them, but I see what I see in life and draw my own conclusions.

the thing that keeps u alive is the will to survive, if u have family u will probably be more determined to survive than someone who doesn't have family,but u must keep your self busy continuessly, hunt for food build shelters,build clothes , build knives,build spears, take showers stuff like that, just go with the flow

volwest - Obviously we can all agree that any animals primary instinct is self-preservation. Philosophying it to death won't change that.

I don't guess this forum is filled with Philosophers and Psycologist. I think the 'will to live' is plainly understood among the people in here using the term, and it is more than likely interpreted in much the same way.

It certainly isn't over-simplistic. When all the other feelings and fears that you face in that type of situation creep up on you, its that inner strength, or will to live, that keeps you going.

And for my money - blurry or otherwise - it still serves us well.....

Can we agree that preservation of the species might be instinctual, volwest? Hence develops the sense for self-preservation and the need/desire to procreate? I'm just firing them out here. I wonder if at some level the male black widow knows what he's in for? Or just thinks "wow, look at the legs on that one!" and starts flirting her up.

I am neither a philosopher nor a psychologist, I'm a social misfit, just ask Sarge.

Go Wolfpack

amen brother trax

hmmm the will to survive?
self preserving mechanism?

they both exsist and niether exsist.

i have seen people fight with every molecule inthem to survive a situation or event, and i have witnessed people just turn off and fade away.
why does or is this need to survive stong in some and absent in others?
destiny? are we preprogramed to fail or sucseed?
if you want to play with words such as will to survive let me play devils advocate

does one have a sense of direction?

more to follow after i hear your thoughts

always be prepared

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Originally Posted by trax

Can we agree that preservation of the species might be instinctual, volwest? Hence develops the sense for self-preservation and the need/desire to procreate? I'm just firing them out here. I wonder if at some level the male black widow knows what he's in for? Or just thinks "wow, look at the legs on that one!" and starts flirting her up.

I am neither a philosopher nor a psychologist, I'm a social misfit, just ask Sarge.

Go Wolfpack

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I've always said that if I were put in this world as a male Black Widow Spider, (Shouldn't that be "Black WidowER?") I would be the first & only one to declare total celibacy!:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by volwest

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Preserving the species is not an instinct, and self-preservation is not to be mistaken with self-duplication. A need is not a desire, and a desire is not an intention , and procreation has to do with tensions within and not the species needs.So this will, is like a stick, at one end we have "live"...and at another we have "die", both are part of the same stick.

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That little tadpole surviving the millions of others swimming their way in there, isn't something instinctual? I don't know man, what's instinct? Look at white tail deer, very overpopulated across north america now because so many predators have been wiped out by man, but they're still rutting and breeding every fall....desire? instinct to procreate? I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but if someone has the answer, lay it on me. The continuum of life--death is something I agree with volwest, I'm just looking for more answers.

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Originally Posted by volwest

Don't be confused friend.

The little tadpole is designed in a very specific way, to give him the best chances for survival in his environment, so yes, he will re-act in a specific way to external stimuli.
Instinct is a response to EXTERNAL stimuli, unless it is overridden by what we call intelligence. But there are other methods contributing to re-acting also, since most living organisms must "evolve", therefore, what we may call instinct when watching a certain behavior, may also be an intermediate position served by memory, which is based on individuality since this memory, this "new instinct" will be built upon experience.

To me, reproduction is an INTERNAL stimuli. It is more visible in single cell organisms like amoebas.
The name of the game gives it up "REPRODUCTION". To re-produce it-self has to do with self-duplication, when a tension within has to reach a certain release. This process has nothing to do with self-preservation, since this duplication means the inevitable end to the original copy.

"Preserving the species" cannot be found in nature, we can find "preserving the group/colony/pack...", but not the species. Entire ant colonies will wage war to other colonies in order to preserve their own group, but if this preservation idea was extended to the species, and was an instinct, they would not kill each others. Just like us, or many other organisms/insects/animals.

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Well the ants killing each other will at least make the species stronger because the weaker groups and individuals die and the strong survive, so preserving the strongest groups helps preserve the species in the long run.

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Originally Posted by owl_girl

Well the ants killing each other will at least make the species stronger because the weaker groups and individuals die and the strong survive, so preserving the strongest groups helps preserve the species in the long run.

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I agree wholeheartedly with owl_girl, and my question about instinct, your having said it's a response to external stimuli, is...isn't the very essence of instinct that it is innate? That a sentient being knows that there are things that it should do to survive. Aren't the ant colonies battles usually territorial, not unlike humans? Hence, seeing the species in a very limited view vis, my group defines the species?

As for that little tadpole...I just think yay for the guy that made it, perhaps there's something coded in the one super-swimmer that is carrying forward the best and strongest traits of that male. I don't know that, I'm just throwing it out there as a maybe.

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Originally Posted by volwest

Ah ?

How do you figure that one out ?
I think a couple of people have had that concept through out our history...I wouldn't want to be associated with them...but hey, why not.

Do you even realize what you just said ?

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I wouldn’t apply that to humans, but in the case of ants a lot of things work that wouldn’t work for humans, like there social structure, communist little bugs. I suppose it did sound a bit Nazi, but I’m not Nazi I promise. And I don’t take that approach to humans at all.

Don’t worry volwest, I’m not going to go around killing of all the week.:cool:

Most human wars are "territorial" in that they've started with someone having something someone else wanted. We often mask it with the excuse that my God's better than your God or some other lame-o thing, but that's basically my comparison with the ants.

I wanted to add something else to this discussion (which I am enjoying mightily by the way!) as part of the "psychology" of surviving. We have other posts here about the benefits/risks of either bugging out or bunkering down. If we were in the direst of survival situations, societal collapse because of natural disaster or war, and we choose to bunker down, then what?

What is human nature in that situation? I'm not trying to criticize anyone's plan or viewpoint here, but just for instance one of our newest wolfpack members has a plan where his family gathers at his place and it becomes essentially an armed compound. So, who agrees? and...what about people who are strangers and show up pleading for help? Not threatening, pleading. If you show up at my door and have a sick or injured person and I have medical aid, I will feel compelled to help. If you show up hungry, I will feel compelled to share food, that's my personal nature. But what if "you" start numbering in the dozens, or hundreds? I don't have my answers yet, but I'd like to hear some of your thoughts....{are we having fun yet?}

I knew about the fungus. The ants usually move the infected ant away from the colony before the fugues spreads to the rest of them, saw it on discovery channel.
I guess there are things that humans and ants have in common, but its not always a good thing, and I wouldn’t try to get ant psychology mixed up with human psychology, there’s a difference. I still think ants are communistic, and that hasn’t worked very well for humans. But I suppose I’m getting sidetracked.

About what trax said about people showing up at the doer wanting help, good point. For that the only thing I can think of is store up lots and lots of supplies.