So, It's come to this...

My Daughter attended a concert in Chicago (House of Blues). The next day, she conveyed a story to me that has the old patriot in me kind of stirred up.

It’s a long drive from here to there, so she bought the tickets online.

When she and her girlfriend arrived, this is what entry involved.
The customers were separated into two lines one male and one female. They were then subjected to full body patdown searches. Were told to turn out their pockets. Purses were emptied and contents searched. She observed that pocket knives were confiscated and “disposed of”.

I did some checking on search and seizure laws. Surprise! They only apply to Law enforcement or Government agents. Private security have no restrictions or need for probable cause.
Now I suppose, she could have refused to submit to a search and asked for a ticket refund. But I’ll bet the loss of privacy was agreed to in fine print when buying the tickets.

I’m afraid the bad guys won. We are now guilty until proven innocent.
:cursing:

While I agree that it is sad and and I do not agree with the whole pat down, I can see their logic. I mean if, God forbid, your daughter was hurt there by some dumba$$ then you would be looking for answers from the "so called" security. So I guess what I'm trying to say is....all these things that have pushed our liberties to the side were done for a reason. People as a whole have brought this on themselves, and good people like you, your daughter, etc have to suffer.

I am sorry to hear a fellow Veteran have that opinion.
You are entitled! We fought for that right.
I just cannot come to accept being treated as a suspect for for a possible future crime.
Just where does it stop?
Are all free men and women assumed to be a prospective criminal?
That is not really how I would define freedom. But then again, I still trust a handshake agreement, and someones word.
I guess I'm becoming obsolete.

I'm leaning towards your thinking on this McGyver. I got questioned by a cop a while back and he determined that I wasn't doing anything wrong (someone reported that I was walking down the center line on a highway in the dark of night. I'm just not that adventurous) Anyway, he kept insisting on seeing my identification after having determined that there was no wrong-doing. I asked why he need to see my ID's since there was nothing going on

Policeman: Just for our records, sir

Me: Oh, so you guys keep records of people that aren't doing anything wrong? That's good to know. Isn't that the function of a police state?

I never showed him my id.

It stops when the lawyers stop. It stops when criminals don't have more rights than us. It stops when our enemy can't blend in because profiling and political correctness allow for them to.

Sucks...but in the end I would rather sit through a little more security in the airport and large functions than to risk getting blown up because some terrorist saw it as a good opportunity to blow the **** out of a large number of people.

Not trying to be nasty. Just saying. While this country dwells on being PC, we will all suffer in order to be safe (or safer).

Just my 2 cents.

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security."

Benjamin Franklin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mcgyver

I am sorry to hear a fellow Veteran have that opinion.
You are entitled! We fought for that right.
I just cannot come to accept being treated as a suspect for for a possible future crime.
Just where does it stop?
Are all free men and women assumed to be a prospective criminal?
That is not really how I would define freedom. But then again, I still trust a handshake agreement, and someones word.
I guess I'm becoming obsolete.

---

Well don't get me wrong I don't agree with it. I am just trying to explain why it happens. Personally I hate it and find it very sad that our society has come to this. Sometimes I feel I was born in the wrong time period. Just the other day I was researching "generations" like Baby Boomers, the Greatest Generation, and Generation X, Y and Z. I found that my overall views and tendicies are more in line with the Greatest Generation or those living in the WWII era. I am classified as X/Y but refuse to claim it. People these days seem to think only about themselves and do not care how their actions affect others. Now to a point self preservation is good thing, but having respect for others is equally important and these days respect is almost gone. I too trust in a man's word and like to think people can trust mine, but as you said it is becoming obsolete. It's very sad indeed, but with the way people are these days, I feel that some liberties must be regulated to a point. I hate that it has come to that but if it helps to protect my family than that is a sacrifice that must be made.

I had all this in 1997 when I went to see U2 Wembley Stadium. So I guess it's been going on a while. Funny though, no security check for Aerosmith. But that was in a much smaller venue so maybe that was why. Either that, or Steve Tyler wasn't considered important ebough OR Bono's Huge ego was just beginning to emerge!

Ironically I just recieved this email today.

SCHOOL -- 1958 vs. 2008

Scenario:
Jack goes quail hunting before school,
pulls into school parking lot with shotgun in gun rack.

1958- Vice Principal comes over, looks at Jack's shotgun,
goes to his car and gets his shotgun to show Jack.
2008 - School goes into lock down, FBI called, Jack hauled off to jail
and never sees his truck or gun again. Counsellors called in
for traumatized students and teachers

Scenario:
Johnny and Mark get into a fistfight after school.

1958 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins.
Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up buddies.
2008 - Police called, SWAT team arrives, arrests Johnny and Mark.
Charge them with assault, both expelled even though Johnny started it.

Scenario:
Jeffrey won't be still in class, disrupts other students.

1958 - Jeffrey sent to office and given a good paddling by the Principal.
Returns to class, sits still and does not disrupt class again.
2008 - Jeffrey given huge doses of Ritalin. Becomes a zombie.
Tested for ADD. School gets extra money from state
because Jeffrey has a disability.

Scenario:
Billy breaks a window in his neighbor's car
and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt.

1958 - Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal,
goes to college, and becomes a successful businessman.
2008 - Billy's dad is arrested for child abuse.
Billy removed to foster care and joins a gang.
State psychologist tells Billy's sister that she remembers
being abused herself and their dad goes to prison.
Billy's mom has affair with psychologist.
Scenario:
Mark gets a headache and takes some aspirin to school.

1958 - Mark shares aspirin with Principal out on the smoking dock.
2008 - Police called, Mark expelled from school for drug violations.
Car searched for drugs and weapons.
Scenario:
Pedro fails high school English.

1958 - Pedro goes to summer school, passes English and goes to college.
2008 - Pedro's cause is taken up by state.
Newspaper articles appear nationally explaining that knowing
English as a requirement for graduation is racist.
ACLU files class action lawsuit against state school system
and Pedro's English teacher. English banned from core curriculum.
Pedro given diploma anyway but ends up
mowing lawns for a living because he cannot speak English.
Scenario:
Johnny takes apart leftover firecrackers from 4th of July,
puts them in a model airplane paint bottle, blows up a red ant bed.

1958 - Ants die..
2008- BATF, Homeland Security, FBI called.
Johnny charged with domestic terrorism, FBI investigates parents,
siblings removed from home, computers confiscated,
Johnny's Dad goes on a terror watch list and is never allowed to fly again.

Scenario:
Johnny falls while running during recess and scrapes his knee.
He is found crying by his teacher, Mary. Mary hugs him to comfort him.

1958 - In a short time, Johnny feels better and goes on playing.
2008 - Mary is accused of being a sexual predator and loses her job.
She faces 3 years in State Prison.
Johnny undergoes 5 years of therapy.

You know Doug, that's scarily close to the truth!

On my first day back to school the teacher was going over the syllabus and came to the college rules and policies part. He gave an example of a guy pulling out his small pocket knife in class to wipe some crud off it or something.

He told the guy weapons aren't allowed on school property and to leave class and come back when he no longer had the weapon. The guy argued it wasn't a weapon, then he argued it was his right to carry it, he wouldn't leave class and was expelled. He appealed and lost. He wasn't using the knife or intending to use the knife as a weapon or for criminal means. But, he got expelled for standing up for his basic rights, whether written or not. Then again, maybe he wasn't standing up for his rights, but for common sense instead.

The teacher reminded us that all weapons are not alowed and to please remove them. I just sat there pocketknife in pocket. I also wondered what the definition of weapon was. A nail file, clippers, scissors, box cutter??? The term "weapon" isn't defined in the school policies.

Now, I wouldn't be pulling out my knife to wipe off crud, but I could see me pulling it out to open a package, remove a staple, check my pocketwatch, or to get change out of my pocket for the vending machine. So, now I have to be real careful about pulling out my knife on school property regardless of the reason.

Last semester we were all given flash drives and I used my pocketknife to open the plastic case. I had no idea that for doing that I could have been singled out as a bad guy or expelled from school.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trabitha

It stops when the lawyers stop. It stops when criminals don't have more rights than us. It stops when our enemy can't blend in because profiling and political correctness allow for them to.

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Guess what? Lawyers have been fighting against these abuses for decades, while most of you (the general public) didn't mind intrusive searches and abuses of privacy rights - so long as they were "only" directed at "criminals." While we were fighting these abuses, we warned everyone that the abuses wouldn't stop with "criminals" - who, by the way, have far fewer rights than most people think, because the practical application of law is not what the theory suggests it is - and that it would only be a matter of time before government and business would trample over everyone's individual rights.

Lawyers knew this was coming for decades. Now that it has arrived, will you listen to us? Finally?

The problem lawyers, are the ones writing these laws. Vote them out of office, and they can't do that stupid crap, any more........Right?

The problem really stems from the fact that once again, we blame THINGS for peoples actions.
I was taught in the service that you are the deadliest weapon, everything else is just a tool.
If they every get it figured out that well trained people can kill people with their bare hands, what then?
Do we get handcuffed to our seat pre-flight?

Sorry for the rant, but this really chaps my arz!
This is not about security, it's about control.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doug1980

Ironically I just recieved this email today.

....

---

So true. and in bold are some good reasons why we should seriously reconsider stopping this nonsense.

SCHOOL -- 1958 vs. 2008

Scenario:
Jack goes quail hunting before school,
pulls into school parking lot with shotgun in gun rack.

1958- Vice Principal comes over, looks at Jack's shotgun,
goes to his car and gets his shotgun to show Jack.
Jack grows up to be a responsible contributing member of society

2008 - School goes into lock down, FBI called, Jack hauled off to jail
and never sees his truck or gun again. Counsellors called in
for traumatized students and teachers
Jack has felony record and gets set back due to jail time. Since no one will hire him due to a felony record, lack of vehicle and lack of skills Jack uses what he learned in jail to make a living as a criminal costing responsible citizens thousands of dollars in lost property and high taxes paying for trauma counseling and taking care of his like in prison.

Scenario:
Johnny and Mark get into a fistfight after school.

1958 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins.
Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up buddies.
Johnny and Mark remain friends, stay in school and later in life work together as part of a team to help cure cancer.

2008 - Police called, SWAT team arrives, arrests Johnny and Mark.
Charge them with assault, both expelled even though Johnny started it. Mark gets pissed, goes to Johnny's house and kills him and his parents, goes to school and kills the teacher, principal and a few innocent bystander students before taking his own life.

Scenario:
Jeffrey won't be still in class, disrupts other students.

1958 - Jeffrey sent to office and given a good paddling by the Principal.
Returns to class, sits still and does not disrupt class again.
jeffrey grows up changes his name to Bear Grylls and gets famous doing a survival show.

2008 - Jeffrey given huge doses of Ritalin. Becomes a zombie.
Tested for ADD. School gets extra money from state
because Jeffrey has a disability. Our taxes go up and with the school's help Jeffrey learns to play the system and becomes a deadbeat dad living off welfare, SS and medicaid.

Scenario:
Billy breaks a window in his neighbor's car
and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt.

1958 - Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal,
goes to college, and becomes a successful businessman. Or he doesn't, but it sure beats the 2008 scenario below.

2008 - Billy's dad is arrested for child abuse.
Billy removed to foster care and joins a gang.
State psychologist tells Billy's sister that she remembers
being abused herself and their dad goes to prison.
Billy's mom has affair with psychologist.

Scenario:
Mark gets a headache and takes some aspirin to school.

1958 - Mark shares aspirin with Principal out on the smoking dock.
2008 - Police called, Mark expelled from school for drug violations.
Car searched for drugs and weapons. Again, Mark is denied an education and given a criminal record that may haunt him for life. Mark wanted to be a pharmacist or medical doctor, but instead he figures he'll just deal drugs instead since his record is already screwed.

Scenario:
Pedro fails high school English.

1958 - Pedro goes to summer school, passes English and goes to college.
2008 - Pedro's cause is taken up by state.
Newspaper articles appear nationally explaining that knowing
English as a requirement for graduation is racist.
ACLU files class action lawsuit against state school system
and Pedro's English teacher. English banned from core curriculum.
Pedro given diploma anyway but ends up
mowing lawns for a living because he cannot speak English. Or, our taxes go up and Pedro is given a free ride right thru college, he ends up becoming a pharmacist, not because he's good but because the company has to fill an EOE opening and Pedro fits the bill. He writes the wrong prescription because he can't read. Some innocent old lady dies from a drug interaction.Her family sues the company and our cost of medical care skyrockets.

Scenario:
Johnny takes apart leftover firecrackers from 4th of July,
puts them in a model airplane paint bottle, blows up a red ant bed.

1958 - Ants die..he blows his fingers off, and later in life his childhood fascination and experimentation with blowing things up gives him the inspiration to invent a new highly efficient and powerful combustion engine. Since the state wouldn't give him disability he used his mind to earn a living

2008- BATF, Homeland Security, FBI called.
Johnny charged with domestic terrorism, FBI investigates parents,
siblings removed from home, computers confiscated,
Johnny's Dad goes on a terror watch list and is never allowed to fly again. Our taxes go up, our rights are taken away, Johnny's dad kills himself and Johnny grows up to be the unabomber.

Scenario:
Johnny falls while running during recess and scrapes his knee.
He is found crying by his teacher, Mary. Mary hugs him to comfort him.

1958 - In a short time, Johnny feels better and goes on playing.
2008 - Mary is accused of being a sexual predator and loses her job.
She faces 3 years in State Prison. Mary becomes a sexual predator because she's been brainwashed by the system to think she is one. Johnny undergoes 5 years of therapy, becomes a homosexual, prostitute living on wefare and dies of AIDS. Our taxes go up and people are afraid to take pics of their kids in their birthday suits.


These might be made up scenarios, but if you can something up, put it under pressure and add enough heat it's bound to explode. The worst part is the chain reaction events like these cause. One simple thing ends up affecting thousands of people.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ken

Guess what? Lawyers have been fighting against these abuses for decades, while most of you (the general public) didn't mind intrusive searches and abuses of privacy rights - so long as they were "only" directed at "criminals." While we were fighting these abuses, we warned everyone that the abuses wouldn't stop with "criminals" - who, by the way, have far fewer rights than most people think, because the practical application of law is not what the theory suggests it is - and that it would only be a matter of time before government and business would trample over everyone's individual rights.

Lawyers knew this was coming for decades. Now that it has arrived, will you listen to us? Finally?

---

So I take it that YOU are a lawyer? LOL!
I'm pleased to see that you're obviously a GOOD lawyer with morals. The problem still lies with the lawyers who outnumber your type and still have more pull than "the general public". We can vote as much as we want, but outside of that our only option is to protest. We've seen how well that goes over in the past decade.

Our current situation with "security" is no different than your current situation in the legal field. Too many "bad apples" screwing up the bunch. In the end, there's really very little that can be done. We lighten up on security during a time of war...with an enemy that has infiltrated and will continue to infiltrate our borders, or hold tight until it becomes safer.

I say that while PC reigns, we suck it up and keep those Bastards from killing even MORE civilians on American soil. Sucks, but in the end, our federal government has shown itself completely inept in this matter. Someone has to step up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mcgyver

The problem really stems from the fact that once again, we blame THINGS for peoples actions.
I was taught in the service that you are the deadliest weapon, everything else is just a tool.
If they every get it figured out that well trained people can kill people with their bare hands, what then?
Do we get handcuffed to our seat pre-flight?

Sorry for the rant, but this really chaps my arz!
This is not about security, it's about control.

---

I don't know...that bomb strapped to a chest is a pretty deadly "thing". Just sayin'. I can go into a crowd with a chip on my shoulder, kicking and screaming and I can be subdued and do very little harm.
If I have a weapon, not only is it harder for me to be subdued, but that "thing" will hurt or kill before I am.

Things are rather important in this subject, as they are what "the bad guy" uses to carry out his action.

As bad as some hate to hear it, the problem is that not enough hard working, honest people with common sense, get out and vote for the right ones. We are being out numbered, by the give-me crowd.

There is no need yelling at a dumb liberal, for being a dumb liberal. That's like yelling at the sun, for being the sun. We need to be yelling at the ones who think about like we do, but don't bother to vote! They are the ones giving the country away.

I agree 110%, 2D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trabitha

I don't know...that bomb strapped to a chest is a pretty deadly "thing". Just sayin'. I can go into a crowd with a chip on my shoulder, kicking and screaming and I can be subdued and do very little harm.
If I have a weapon, not only is it harder for me to be subdued, but that "thing" will hurt or kill before I am.

Things are rather important in this subject, as they are what "the bad guy" uses to carry out his action.

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You can give away all your rights and freedoms, and still not be safe.