im just gonna try bark tanning with the fur on first, that way i have at least a bit of a clue what im doing. maybe experiments wil come later. lol
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im just gonna try bark tanning with the fur on first, that way i have at least a bit of a clue what im doing. maybe experiments wil come later. lol
Day 26 of the bark tan:
I checked for strike through and added the first gallon of my 1st pouring, doesn't seem to be even close.
This was the first pic, but the wetness and camera flash makes it appear more white than it actually is.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m...trikeTest1.jpg
This was the second pic, which still used a flash and made it appear more white than it really was, but you can see where it is starting to strike through.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m...trikeTest2.jpg
This pic is lower quality, no flash, but shows the strike through progress better.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m...trikeTest3.jpg
This final pic is after it was let dry just slightly and using natural light from the window.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m...trikeTest4.jpg
I don't know if these pics help or not, but, the lower edge is the grain side and the upper edge is the flesh side. This sample was taken from the thickest part of the neck which is about 1/8" thick.
I expected it to be struck through further given the amount of tannins it has already absorbed. I only have 1/2 gallon of liquor left which is first pour. I suppose once that's put in the mix I'll be left with adding straight bark to the mix in order to replenish the tannins.
Not really sure what to think at this point.
YCC? :)
I think it's going great. You might have to put some straight bark in there to finish up. Looks like it's pretty close to the center to me, but like you said, it's hard to tell in a pic. The middle pic, in the dark looks like it might have a little farther to go, but not much!
Go ahead and add that last 1/2 gallon, give it a few days, then stick a few chunks of bark in there to finish it off.
Keep in mind I really expected it to take more like 60+ days given the cold up there. If you need to make more liquor, dilute it less, or cook it down, but be careful not to go buck wild and get it too strong.
One of my deerskins took 60 days, so if you're at day 26, just keep it going.. it'll get there!
Is it possible at this stage to go too strong considering it's been in there over a month now?
I added the final pouring of liquor today, about 1/2 gallon of first pour. The liquor hasn't appeared to get weaker, but it is hard to tell now as it too has taken on the milky tea look. Also, it seems to be more noticable to the nose now. It doesn't smell rotten, but is defintely becoming somewhat unpleasant to smell.
As far as the hockskins go, the liquor hasn't appeared to weaken at all. Might be due to the fact that there's about 3-4 gallons of liquor to two tiny hockskins. The are dark red, but the hair is still unchanged. Can't remeber if I mentioned it, but they no longer float. As thin as they are i'm surprised they haven't struck through, but I think the hair is holding them back.
In another week I may add some fresh bark chips to both and check once more for strike through. I'm growing impatient and want to make a sheath for my double bit axe and perhaps a powder flask.
I do have one question on this, if I want to make a flask or something else by wet forming do I still need to curry and finish the skin? Or, can I just pull it out wet, cut to shape and form it?
I suppose it's possible to get too strong, but at this point, I would say it's highly unlikely. There should be enough inside for it to tan on out.
As long as it doesn't smell rotten, it's okay. My old bark liquor smells pretty funky, but not rotten. If that last 1/2 gallon doesn't do it, you can add bark chips to the liquor or boil a new batch and condense it stronger. Keep in mind it's a balance.. so the more tanned it gets, the darker the liquor has to stay.. I hope that makes sense lol.
I'm really surprised the hock hair isn't stained. This is great news!
At day 36 I would expect it to take 9 more days at least. If you can drop those chips on it, it should be done by then. It looked pretty close on that last neck check.
I would probably curry the finished hide and form it while it is wet from the curry, then after it's formed, oil the outside with a heavy grease. You can take it straight out of the rinse and form it, and only oil the outside if you wish. It is effectively tanned and oiling is really only to make it pliable, which you don't want too much of. The curry will help the skin take the oil from the outside (grain side) more easily. It's really up to you on that one. I believe H63 posted a thread around here somewhere about wet-forming.
I know you're eager to see and use it, but give it a few more days and a dose of chips and see what happens.
Both my Live Oak and oak/walnut tans froze last night... OOPS!
Ya, if i'd have had this outside it would freeze solid overnight. We've pretty much been below freezing since December 1st and have had constant snow cover with only a 2 day thaw and rain in between. We're approaching a foot of snow now. I just hope the liquor don't start reeking too bad or Mom will make me move it out and then I'll be screwed.
The house got steamed up pretty bad making last seasons maple and boiling the last liquor so in order to maintain peace I can't do it in the house NO MORE. It's hard to get a big pot of water boiling in the freezing wind and snow. I think I may just pour hot water on the fresh bark and make a tea that way. In 7 to 10 days it should be good and dark. Other than just dumping bark chips into my existing liquor that's kind of my only option at this point.
I'm intersted to see the hockskins after they're dry. That should let me know if the hair actually took any tannins. Being wet it might not show, but they look real good. I wish I'd had stuck the other 6 in there as well. I think they'd make a nice ML accessory pouch or even a bowdrill pouch.
Update:
On 1-15-2011 I went ahead and boiled another 3 gallons of water, then I added it to under 5 pounds of fresh unshredded bark chips to soak, off the heat. This new liquor turned dark almost immediately, and within a few days the liquor was a real dark red, almost black.
On the 23rd I poured off this new liquor, 2 gallons worth, and added the used bark chips to my existing batches, both the hockskins and the deer skin. The once used bark chips didn't appear to do much to strenthen my existing batches. Also, I checked the skin for strikethrough, when wet it still appeared white in the center, but after it dried for an hour or two it appeared to be fully struck through.
On the 26th I pulled the skin and hockskins from the old used liquors and added them both to the new liquor undiluted. I pitched the old liquors and used bark as I feel they may have been saturated with CaCO3/ calcium carbonate from the bucking process, and they stunk. The liquors didn't stink like rotting flesh, but like very ripe bark.
Side note:
I read over at braintan.com that it may not be good to save first run liquors that come from deer bucked in lime because the residual lime changes the liquor chemically, IIRC making it less acidic. But, I will save this new liquor for future use as by now the lime has surely worked out of the skins.
I'm going to let them go until this new liquor starts to weaken and check once more for strikethrough, probably in another week to ten days. As of now I'm well over the 45 day mark of tanning and I believe it is likely struck through, but I want to let it go further and absorb as much weight in tannins as possible. Hopefully this new batch of liquor will impart some more red into the skin, right now it's basically brown.
I've personally not had a problem with limes being left in, and since you rinsed in the creek I doubt if yours had much either, but still good info. I rinse and squeegee a few times before going in. Alkali limes mixed with tannic acid would surely create salts and weaken the liquor.
I'm glad you're being patient with it. For a deer, I'd think 45 days would be plenty, but being so cold up there it might take longer. Just keep doing what you're doing and I'm sure it'll turn out.
How about your bones and other projects? making any progress on those?
After putting the skin in the new liquor it seems much tighter and less rubbery/ stretchy. The grain seems more distinct when manipulated. It has a much different feel now. I have to look into getting some neatsfoot oil.
I haven't really had time for other projects and it's taking me time to decide on what to make as I want it to be something I will use and not strictly for show.
But, I took the uncooked bones from the buck and left 'em outside for the birds and cats to pick clean, worked fairly well. The sparrows, finches and such nibbled the bones quite clean in just a few days, the cats won't mess with them because the meat is frozen. I also took the cooked bones and did the same. Once the ice and snow is gone I'll try a few projects with each to see which holds up best, raw or cooked. I'm betting on raw. I had a cooked shoulder blade which I intended to make something with, but it was real brittle, I think it was from the cooking as i've found weathered shoulder blades that were not so brittle.
I have lots of sinew put up for sewing. I used the deer tallow to waterproof my boots, it worked great, but I ended up taking a hair dryer to them when finished to get the tallow to re-melt and really work itself into the seams and such. Added benefit, they are now much warmer too, but don't breath as well so it's a trade off. It makes them much better for ice fishing and slow hiking in cold wet weather.
I did use some of the new bark liquor to put a nice patina on one of my fixed blade knives, being high carbon steel it rusts easily, and I'm hoping the patina will limit that.
I'd like to see that knife after it's been stained :D
You're talking about ice and I was outside today stretching a wet skin with no shirt on... and I was sweating!
The weather is definitely the biggest determining factor when doing this kind of stuff. Today, we're dipping to the single digits. Tomorrow and the next day we are predicted to have the highest snowfall since 2005, over 12", it could be less, but freezing rain will take it's place, which can be even worse than snow. This, of course, is all based on the weatherman. I'm not sure where he gets his information on record snowfalls because we had 18" just a few years back.
Day 58: I don't know if you can see from these pics if it's struck through YCC, but, unless you say otherwise I'm going to sew the holes up, rinse out the excess tannin, squeegee out the excess moisture, curry and finish it this weekend if time permits.
I have a hard time seeing a distinct color change in the skin, maybe my eyes are going bad. LOL! But, the new liquor has weakened somewhat over the last 9 days, so it is still taking tannins, albeit much slower than before.
I was going back over your bark tan thread and am having a hard time drawing a distinction between currying and finishing. ??
What would you think of using mineral oil or canola oil to curry it? Those are the only two oils I have on hand, except for the tallow which would be difficult for currying. I have a feeling it would be hard to keep it melted enough to absorb into the skin. I could go buy some neatsfoot, but am VERY limited on funds, so if one of these two will suffice I'd much rather go that route.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m...n/CloseUp1.jpg
Same skin after I blotted off some moisture
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m...n/CloseUp2.jpg
The second pic definately looks darker all the way through, compared to the pictures above from day 26. I'm not sure about what colors that bark will impart, but that might be it. I can definately see the fading as it gets closer to the middle, and the middle looks darkened slightly to me. I'd say go for it!
To make the distinction between currying and finishing: Currying introduces oil into the skin by emulsifying it in water. Oil and water don't normally mix, so a wet hide won't take oil.. it'll just bead up on it and never enter the hide. By emulsifying the oil, it can be absorbed by the damp skin and when the water evaporates, the oil is inside. Make sense?
Finishing is using straight oil to cover or treat the skin, which at that point should be dry enough to absorb oil from the grain side. This process is expedited because there is already some oil in the skin. oil and oil are attracted making a nicer "finish". Also at this point, it is decided whether a texture will be added, whether it will be molded, or slicked, etc. kinda like choosing which lacquer you're going to put on a table, we call that the "finish".
hope that makes sense too haha.
I would think canola oil would make a better curry than mineral oil. Save the mineral oil for a finish, but see if you can mix a drop or two of each to make sure they don't repel one another the way oil and water would. Even if they do, you could still finish with canola too. Depending on what you are going to make, I wouldn't use the tallow unless it needs to be heavy and very water repellent!
If you want a harder, tack leather don't stretch it much, and if it needs to move and breathe, stake it. I can't wait to see the finished piece!! Good work and an excellent display of patience. Two thumbs up!!
So, which would be better for the emulsion, regular bar soap or dishsoap? I don't have any of that good ole fashioned homeade lye soap that I been hearing so much about. :)
Wtf?? Mods!!!
RWC, colgate, or fels naptha is preferrable, but if you have some gentle bathsoap like Dove, or Ivory, that'll work just fine. The soap isn't that important as long as it isn't a harsh degreaser, like gojo or lava.
I gotta make some more lye soap and I promise I'll send ya some!
He was a spammer and has been dispatched to the spam heap.Quote:
Originally Posted by your_comforting_company
Quote:
Originally Posted by crashdive123
HeHeHe the way ALL spammers should be treated!
Cool, thanks YCC.
Today the skins were finally struck through, 61 days it took, and I began the process of oiling and finishing them.
Here's a few pics of the skins before they went into the oil emulsion for finishing.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m...reEmulsion.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m...reEmulsion.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m...reEmulsion.jpg
It's been a long time waiting, but perhaps it's finally about to pay off. I just need to get oil into the skins and work them dry, then they will be finished and ready for use.
BTW, I used Ivory soap and canola oil for the emulsion.
OH WOW!
That is BEAUTIFUL!!
I'm glad you waited brother, that is amazing!!
I might just throw this coyote in some bark tan and see how it turns out in live oak!
I need clarification: you put the skin into several emulsions letting each sit for 24 hours? or just one emulsion for 24 hours? After the first emulsion the oily, soapy water has turned dark orange, still lots of unbound tannins?
here's some vids that show my notes on the bark tan portion, and the rinsing, sleeking and emulsification.
Bark tan timeline
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMm6i1dpXR4
Rinsing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhSGoWF8gB0
Sleeking, slicking, squeegying, or simply "getting out the excess water"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2RVbr7r16k
Emulsion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzZ1A8ibJ5o
Really excellent notes on that timeline! I wish I had those kind of organizational skills!
While rinsing, you say "I don't think you'll ever get it all clear" and I do believe you are correct, which is why your emulsion turned a little brown. I would say after 8 rinsings, you got the bulk out, and I do several myself, sometimes squeegee-ing (flesh side) in between to help get excess out. Looks to me like you did a fine job.
A spatula for a squeegie is a great idea too. My wife is getting tired of me confiscating all her stuff tho. blenders, pots and pans.. If I'm out working on a skin and I come in, she always gives me that look... "What do you want this time?"
Your "sponge" comment is right on. Too much excess water in the hide will keep anything else from getting in efficiently, so by removing excess water, it will readily soak up your emulsion. The emulsion in water, as I explained before, is because oil and water don't normally mix. The hide is full of water, so oil can't get in.. we squeeze out the excess water, and replace the "excess" with emulsified oil. As the water evaporates, the oils are left behind IN the skin. When you OIL the hide, the oils are attracted to one another, (the ones inside accept the ones coming in from outside), so that you can freely add more oil as desired.
That's a great looking hide!
I tyipcally only prepare one emulsion, but use it several times. I let it sit in the emulsion for about 24 hours each time. Like I say, none of this stuff is an exact science as far as "doing" it.. as long as you accomplish the end goal, you can do it once, or ten times. At this point it's tanned and won't spoil, so you can soak it longer if you like, or you can do several dunkings and dryings in a day, provided you have time and a place to let it dry a little bit in between. Your emulsion looks good and milky. Very good!
If the oil and water separate, add a little more soap and stir again (soap loses it's soapiness after a while). If you don't like how it feels, dunk it in your curry again, and repeat till you get the feel you like.. since this is your first, it might be hard to decide, but you've done so well with it all up to this point, I don't know that you really need my advice here!! It'll feel limber but not so "rubbery" and I don't like mine to feel heavy and oily.. you'll know what you like. For shoe soles, or whatever, you'll want it heavier, and for bags or whatever, lighter hide, with thicker oil on the grain side (but that's later).
Looks to me like you have done everything just right. That's a beautiful skin and I can't wait to see what you make from it!
Great job man. Give yourself a pat on the back!
Well I guess I better get to it then. Thanks for the compliments ycc, and for all the help up to this point.
BTW, I usually only take notes like that the first time around on things, after that my org. skills drop off exponentionally. LOL! It does help as a reference for the future though. Down the road, if I find things different, I'll note that as well, but leave out all the other details. The note taking started with mushrooms, and school, and has expanded to other things from there.
Have you decided what finish you'll go for?
staked will loosen it a little as it dries, or you can mold it or texture it or roll it, or...
I'm planning a sheath for my axe, and a possibles bag or/ M/L accesory bag, I'm not sure. I want tough and shiny smooth for the sheath, but a bit loose and a nice grain pattern would look good on the bag.
Being new to it, I think I'll just finish it out working it dry and where it ends up it ends up. Probably somewhere between soft and stiff with a rough pattern in the grain.
BTW, I finished the hockskins:
They were full of oil from the hair, I squeegeed/ slicked the peas out of em and then worked em dry overnight. I didn't have to add any oil as the excess in the hair was enough. I just kept working the hair over onto the flesh side to remove excess oil from the hair and at the same time add oil to the skin.
Working the area around the dewclaws was the most trying, and after 12 hours they still feel cool to the touch which makes me think there's some moisture in there yet. The humidity in the house is upwards of 70% and I think that and the hair keeping em from drying completely. But, every time I pick them back up to work my hands get real soft and supple, so I don't think they'll set up hard now. Even the thin frayed bits on the edges that I couldn't work very well are completely dry and fairly soft. Only the thicker skin in between and below the dewclaws is slightly stiff. That area retained the most water and was hardest to work. This is a good pre run test for the skin though, I think it will dry quicker having no hair on it.
Some notes on color change of hair:
I'll have to compare some before and after pics of the hockskins to see how much the tannins chaged the hair, but it appears to have taken it from a grey fall deer to a summer red. The hair did take some color, but it looks natural on the deer. White areas are now off white/ tan. Brown areas are now a bit redder. I wish I'd a done all 8 hockskins now, I like the results. I would expect some color change though, especially in the lighter areas, a white rabbit would probably come out off white, yellow, tan, maybe even orange or red depending on the strength and color of liquor. A cottontail would probably come out close to the way it went in with some added red, orange, and yellow highlights. Deer hair probably is more moisture resistant than coyote, rabbit, fox, etc. as it's hollow and is not technically fur. So, I'd expect more color change on fur bearers, just a guess.
I'm having a hard time right now finding a good stretch for oiling and finishing. We had two snow days last week, and this week is makeup for it, and prep for tests that are coming up. I may have to slick the skin and slowly work it dry over the course of a few days if possible, working it a bit each day.
any time you want to take a break from stretching it, just bag it and set it somewhere cool. No problem at this point.
*I'd recommend using the neck for the sheath. cut it off now and mold it so it'll retain some shape, and oil the heck out of it so it doesn't rust your axe. Don't want that one too soft!
the coloring on the hocks makes me second think doing the yote that way. I dunno, might do it anyway lol.
Good luck on the tests. Let them skins alone and get back on the books, or work em while you study, but school is more important!!
Thanks for recording this process in real-time. I think this has been a great thread! Good job!
Now you gotta come up with something to do with all them bones!
Here's a pic to compare color change rawhide vs. bark tan. Rawhide on left. There's a few more pics on my photobucket site as well.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m...SRawhide01.jpg
But, like I said before, I'm betting fur would take up more tannins than hair though, not sure.
I really can't tell any difference.. Ok.. yote is going in bark tan. We'll find out if it does or not ;)
Those pics are fairly accurate too colorwise. BTW, I saw the pic of your Granny/ Grandma holding up your cow hide, my mom couldn't keep her hands off the hockskins once finished, and that is a surprise to me as she is not into dead things whatsoever, but, it does show just how they change through the process. She's been rattling off all kinds of ideas for using them too. Pretty cool!
I busted out all my programs and such for school, well most of 'em, and am ready to go. Burning the midnight canola oil, lol. Working the skin dry as we speak. Actually, I'm letting it hang over the shower curtain for a half hour or so to let some of the excess moisture evaporate, humidity is still hovering just under 70%, :(. It's looking good, not as oily as the hockskins, but there's oil in there and sleeking it with the metal spatula worked real good.
I decided to work the whole thing dry, want to see the finished skin as a whole. I'm gonna use my small cutting board as a "mild" staker, it's rounded off well; just gonna sit back, wedge it between the cushions in the couch, lay out some shop rags to protect the furniture, watch the tube and work 'er dry... city style. :0
I'm re-thinking the axe sheath due to rust issues. I was teetering on it before because of that, and since you had to go and mention it, it might be a bad omen. I never liked leather for sheaths for that very reason, love leather, hate rust.
A couple words of warning: if anyone plans on doing this like me in the house and bathtub... unlikely, just make sure you don't let the emulsified oil go down the drain, and make sure you don't drip tannins anywhere. It does a pretty good job of staining stuff, and I'm sure that oil would plug up your drain. Make sure you have plenty of old shop towels or the like to slop up the oil and tannins.
A heavy oiling after you cut your pattern will help keep rust away, but you have to oil the leather often. Don't let me talk you out of anything you want to do! Do it and experiment and learn. Experience is the best teacher, and you can't get that by reading anything I or anyone else puts up on the 'net. I might be learning things from you pretty soon ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by rwc1969
And some very good points. I try to do it out in the shop for that very reason. Mrs ycc doesn't like me staining her towels. (and I'm the one who has to fix clogged pipes!!) Gotta love the "chop shop"!
Here's the hockdkin finishing vid, it's a long one, but to see the finished product just skip to the end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUBdxMrylNI
The skin is taking some time to work dry. The thin areas, legs and belly, are drying out quick, but the bulk of it is much thicker and very slow to dry. I think I've spent about 4 hours on and off. The legs and some parts of the belly are very thin, probably thinner than a standard piece of printer paper, but the bulk is upwards of an 1/8" thick or so. But, it definitely has the look and feel of leather now and most of those initial stains from the blood and creek are gone.
Oh, man! You should be rightfully proud of those. I know it was a lot of work but I think you did an outstanding job. I had to give you some rep for that. You worked too hard not to get rep.
Awesome job! Those look Fantastic!! Beautifully marbled and rich in color. Really outstanding my friend!
The oiled one, is that just canola oil? That's a really nice red. Love it!!
Outstanding! I know that you put a lot of work intothat, and you shoudl be darn proud of the way it turned out. Way to stick to it, and kudos you you YCC for the tutorial and help along the way. I can't give either of you rep right now, but know that it is well deserved.
yep, canola oil. I wasn't quite sure when to stop oiling. I didn't want it loaded down, but didn't want it to dry and crack either. Now that the oil has had a chance to distribute, the red flesh side is much redder and more even in color. The grain side is a nice dark brown, it was red too until I added more oil at the very end which darkened it up. The more I worked and stretched it the lighter and redder it got, but as I added oil it would darken back up.Quote:
Originally Posted by your_comforting_company
With the finishing the only hard part for me was the thin edges drying quicker than the the thicker neck and back. I ended up stretching them out a bit in my efforts to keep them from hardening up. that's why it has a ruffled look, the edges are stretched more than the center.
I would like to know the best way to store it until I can get around to making something.
Once again, thanks for all the help.
I will say this:
De-hairing was hard work and took a good 7 hours or more total. I'm lending that to the below 50 temps during bucking and possibly a bad choice in bucking agent.
Working it dry was almost just as much work and time, but was easier because I was able to break it up over a three day period. next time I think I'll stretch it on a rack to work dry, working it in hand was a bit difficult for my worn out hands and joints.
Those two chores combined were 12-16 hours. Everything else was a cakewalk, well removing, shredding, and boiling the bark was a bit of a chore, but not too bad, just time consuming. I'm pretty sure the times would be cut in half or at least by 1/3 next time around.
Having said that, I'll definitely be doing it again, mother nature, health and time permitting. It's well worth the effort, and it feels so good in the hand.
I'm pretty sure you, ycc, already said it in other words, but there truly is something magical and intriguing about seeing and feeling the skin transform before your senses; smell, touch and sight all play a role. You really do get a feel for it throughout the entire process.
I've just read back over this whole thread while finishing up hand-softening a buckskin. This is really great. Can we make it a sticky?
RWC. It's tanned. Store it anywhere, and anyhow you like to. If you bury it in the dirt, it will eventually return to the earth, but at this point it is forever preserved and usable (till you wear it out). Since it's oiled it won't get "wet". You'll have to reoil as time goes on, but that's because the deer isn't producing it's own oil anymore. When our skin dries out we add lotions, and it's really the same principle, but as far as storing, as long as you don't bury it, it's good to go. Might not want to put it in a place that will wick your oil back out. Hang it on the wall like a picture and admire it till you get ready to cut it.. That's the hardest part.. the first cut!
That's funny, all that work and I'm actually afraid to cut into it. BTW, I didn't even sew up the holes, they're all on the fringe. I was thinking of cutting the ruffled fringe off and making some little pouches. I'd like to do something with the fringe first as it looks the worst and is thin. So, that should give me a good opportunity to get the feel of stitching it up and stuff.
I need some ideas of things to make as I'm kind of drawing a blank now that it's finished.