Pot, your thoughts?

Actually, I don't consider DEA to be peer reviewed, although they are under more scrutiny than NORMAL or MADD or any other agency with an political agenda.

As far as freedom is concerned, based on my previous statement:

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Originally Posted by DK

OK - my personal feelings about pot. If you are an informed, mature adult, with no children to be responsible for, with a job that does not require you to be responsible for the health and safety of others, then go ahead. It's your life, your money.
For medicinal uses, under the care of a physician, I have no problems with it.

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Knock yourself out. You are also free to juggle loaded pistols, and drive with bald tires on wet mountain roads, bridge-jumping etc.

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Originally Posted by AS

The gateway argument is bunk, and the impairment argument comes down to JUDGEMENT on when to use it. As for the health argument, it doesn't hold up since they have legalized nicotine and alcohol. Regardless, all three of those arguments are suspect, just as the counter arguments are.

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The gateway argument has EXTENSIVE science and research - medical, psychological, criminal, social services & welfare, etc. If you can link to something that is not from Hemp magazine to present an alternative view, I would be open to it.
The Impairment argument - I'll let the law enforcement and EMT guys weigh in on that. They are the ones usually at the crash scenes.
In your statement that the health argument doesn't hold up, you again have re-stated Nicotine is bad for you and legal, so let's make pot legal - just in different words.

I have no desire to enter into a flame war either. I respect your right to make a personal choice, although there seems to be a LOT of propaganda and appeal to emotion on BOTH sides. So, I'll join you in politics & religion:)

Man, I am SO glad that bicycle rider started this thread. Drop the gloves ladies, commence to clawin' :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Originally Posted by Dennis K.

Hey Chris - from our thread starter here in his intro:



I guess a motor vehicle would be more safe?

OK - my personal feelings about pot. If you are an informed, mature adult, with no children to be responsible for, with a job that does not require you to be responsible for the health and safety of others, then go ahead. It's your life, your money.
For medicinal uses, under the care of a physician, I have no problems with it.

BUT

Pot is illegal in most states. It will get you fired from many jobs. IF you are a kid and use it and get arrested, you MIGHT be able to pass it off as a crime of youth when you apply for a job - that doesn't work to well if you are in your mid-30's or 40's or 50's. Contrary to popular and misguided belief, you are NOT safe to operate a motor vehicle while on this stuff.

Pot-advocates like to say "do you feel the same about alcohol or caffeine or nicotine, or Diet Coke?"
Well, No.
None of those are illegal, nor do they carry the same social stigma as illegal drugs. I don't drink alcohol and drive. Same with certain prescription medications.

Pot-advocates like to tout the "health benefits." I think some of the firefighters here can accurately describe the effects of smoke inhalation. Someone who smokes marijuana regularly may have many of the same respiratory problems that tobacco smokers have. These individuals may have daily cough and phlegm, symptoms of chronic bronchitis, and more frequent chest colds. Continuing to smoke marijuana can lead to abnormal functioning of the lungs and airways. Studies show that someone who smokes five joints per day may be taking in as many cancer-causing chemicals as someone who smokes a full pack of cigarettes every day.

ehhh.... rather than quote a bunch of stuff, here's a link:
http://www.marijuanaaddiction.info/f...-marijuana.htm

found this one rather interesting:
Long-term studies of high school students and their patterns of drug use show that very few young people use other illegal drugs without first trying marijuana. For example, the risk of using cocaine is 104 times greater for those who have tried marijuana than for those who have never tried it.

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You are mostly using the fallacy of circular reasoning. Pot should not be legal, because pot is illegal.

I do not recommend people go out and smoke pot and break the law. I don't, not that I wouldn't if say a bundle fell into my lap, but I don't go out and seek it because I don't want to associate with the criminal element. What I am saying is that pot should be legalized so that there is no longer a social stigma.

Quite frankly, there is a bit of a social stigma against loners who live out in the woods with guns and try to avoid relying on society. Should we make homesteading illegal?

The "study" you quote uses the cum hoc logical fallacy I pointed out earlier. Just because two things happen in correlation, doesn't mean one causes the other.

The fact is, whatever your belief is, science tells us that marijuana is not addictive and not dangerous. Not when compared to other illegal substances. In fact, if you say made pot brownies and ate them on your back porch, they would actually be healthier for you than normal brownies.

Kids aren't stupid, they get exposed to programs like DARE which are utterly ineffective and spread false information and they're told that marijuana is deadly and dangerous, along with meth, and heroine, and cocaine, etc. Only later, the kid learns the truth about weed, and thinks maybe the anti drug people were lying about the other ones too.

My kids are going to get straight talk about drugs, and I tell you what, I'd rather catch them smoking a non-addictive joint, than smoking a cigarette. Because pot isn't chemically addictive people can smoke it socially and or at special occassions, the rare party, etc. Like alcohol use. You can't really do that with tobacco because it does create a chemical addiction.

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Originally Posted by Dennis K.

Actually, I don't consider DEA to be peer reviewed, although they are under more scrutiny than NORMAL or MADD or any other agency with an political agenda.

As far as freedom is concerned, based on my previous statement:


Knock yourself out. You are also free to juggle loaded pistols, and drive with bald tires on wet mountain roads, bridge-jumping etc.


The gateway argument has EXTENSIVE science and research - medical, psychological, criminal, social services & welfare, etc. If you can link to something that is not from Hemp magazine to present an alternative view, I would be open to it.
The Impairment argument - I'll let the law enforcement and EMT guys weigh in on that. They are the ones usually at the crash scenes.
In your statement that the health argument doesn't hold up, you again have re-stated Nicotine is bad for you and legal, so let's make pot legal - just in different words.

I have no desire to enter into a flame war either. I respect your right to make a personal choice, although there seems to be a LOT of propaganda and appeal to emotion on BOTH sides. So, I'll join you in politics & religion:)

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The gateway argument IS bunk.

All it proves is that people who break the law are more likely to break the law. If proves that people who do not respect the law are just as happy to break the law concerning one substance as another. And it proves that people who associate with criminals are more likely to be criminals.

It does not prove that a drug causes a psychological change in the brain causing someone to want to experiment with other drugs.

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Myth: Marijuana is a Gateway Drug. Even if marijuana itself causes minimal harm, it is a dangerous substance because it leads to the use of "harder drugs" like heroin, LSD, and cocaine.
Fact: Marijuana does not cause people to use hard drugs. What the gateway theory presents as a causal explanation is a statistic association between common and uncommon drugs, an association that changes over time as different drugs increase and decrease in prevalence. Marijuana is the most popular illegal drug in the United States today. Therefore, people who have used less popular drugs such as heroin, cocaine, and LSD, are likely to have also used marijuana. Most marijuana users never use any other illegal drug. Indeed, for the large majority of people, marijuana is a terminus rather than a gateway drug.

• Morral, Andrew R.; McCaffrey, Daniel F. and Susan M. Paddock. “Reassessing the marijuana gateway effect.” Addiction 97.12 (2002): 1493-504.

• United States. National Household Survey on Drug Abuse: Population Estimates 1994. Rockville, MD: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, 1995.

• ---. National Household Survey on Drug Abuse: Main Findings 1994. Rockville, MD: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, 1996.

• D.B. Kandel and M. Davies, “Progression to Regular Marijuana Involvement: Phenomenology and Risk Factors for Near-Daily Use,” Vulnerability to Drug Abuse, Eds. M. Glantz and R. Pickens. Washington, D.C.: American Psychological

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Good enough for you?

Did you know the government has repeatedly funded panels, under I believe both Nixon and Reagan, to look into the question if pot should be legalized, both times the panel found the answer to be yes?

By the way, this is a nice site.

http://www.drugpolicy.org/marijuana/factsmyths/#gateway

All their stuff is backed up by multiple references, most of which are the US Federal Government and or medical journals.

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Originally Posted by Chris

It must be so convenient for the anti-marijuana crowd to link it to things like say, meth, heroine, cocaine, etc. Those drugs can actually kill you, can actually cause a chemical addiction.

Anecdotal evidence is not actual evidence. And many of you are making the logical fallacy of cum hoc also known as, correlation != causation.

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Although it is a fallacy to assume that correlation = causation, It is also foolish to assume that there are no links between the two.
What I cited simply implies a link between marajuana and cocaine. Nowhere does it say "Marajuana causes cocaine addiction."

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Originally Posted by Chris

Or should we, perhaps, only pass laws relegating the behavior of drivers, and not perse the behaviors of people sitting in their backyards?

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We have many laws that apply only to drivers. For example, suspension of your DL after a stroke, or safe operating laws, the violation of which can sometimes result in criminal penalties.
Because you are licensed to drive a vehicle, you are also obligated to own up to the responsibility of operating one in a way that does not endanger property or people.

As far as laws regarding pot are concerned, I don't think many law enforcement officers care about the casual backyard adult pot-smoker. Especially if you grow it yourself. But since it is illegal, casual users must seek out illegal sources. So, by saying "Just make it legal and there won't be any problems" is kinda like saying "Let's end all crime by just taking away all the laws."
It is simply neither practical nor realistic.

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Originally Posted by Dennis K.

Although it is a fallacy to assume that correlation = causation, It is also foolish to assume that there are no links between the two.
What I cited simply implies a link between marajuana and cocaine. Nowhere does it say "Marajuana causes cocaine addiction."



We have many laws that apply only to drivers. For example, suspension of your DL after a stroke, or safe operating laws, the violation of which can sometimes result in criminal penalties.
Because you are licensed to drive a vehicle, you are also obligated to own up to the responsibility of operating one in a way that does not endanger property or people.

As far as laws regarding pot are concerned, I don't think many law enforcement officers care about the casual backyard adult pot-smoker. Especially if you grow it yourself. But since it is illegal, casual users must seek out illegal sources. So, by saying "Just make it legal and there won't be any problems" is kinda like saying "Let's end all crime by just taking away all the laws."
It is simply neither practical nor realistic.

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The implication of the correlation is obvious. You're claiming cause and effect.

And legalizing pot isn't about anarchy, it is about practicality. Why did prohibition fail? Because speakeasys and bootleggers bred a violent criminal element and society decided they're rather deal with drunks than shootouts.

By making pot illegal all you're doing is funding violent gangs, depriving farmers of revenue, depriving governments of tax dollars, depriving schools of funding, and depriving industry of a superior fiber in hemp for production of many consumer products. Oh, and of course wasting law enforcement resources.

Pot should be like alcohol, illegal to give to miners, illegal to drive under the influence of, but able to be bought at the corner store by an adult. Tax it and regulate it. Let us stop sending billions to mexican cartels.

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Originally Posted by Chris

By the way, this is a nice site.

http://www.drugpolicy.org/marijuana/factsmyths/#gateway

All their stuff is backed up by multiple references, most of which are the US Federal Government and or medical journals.

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You are right. Interesting site. found on page 1, with maybe 10 seconds of perusing:
Consider becoming a member of DPA Network by making a contribution, sign up to receive important information and

and a bookstore, too....

gee, no profit agenda whatsoever.

I am willing to look through some of the references, although none of the sources on the myth page are linked.
Again, I am all for medical usage.

The problem is not with the casual user. The problem is w/ the idiots. Just like alcohol.
So, reasonable reform of pot laws, I would be open to. A blanket "hey dude, just make it legal" I would not be open to.
I guess it's simply a matter of definition of "reasonable."

Chris,as the administrator of this site I commend your honesty on this subject.

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Originally Posted by Stairman

Chris,as the administrator of this site I commend your honesty on this subject.

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I'm a staunch libertarian and this has long been one of my pet issues.

Never seen Chis post so much stuff on one thread before. I think this beats Remy's record by a mile! Okay guys, ya want to tone it down before the marketing dept over in India decide to make a "controlled substanse" to compete with weed out of cow pies?:high:

Sarge - so far you have made one of THE most relevant points. A lotta kids on this forum (and that is not necessarily determined by actual age) and this is probably not the best topic for them to learn about herblore.

Wait what was the Question??????????

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Originally Posted by Alpine_Sapper

Everyone uses mind altering drugs for recreation. Whether it be THC, caffiene, or adrenaline. Pot just happens to be a downer/hallucinogen.



Bull****. Making a statement like that proves everything else that came out of your mouth is pure unadulterated horse****.

Wow, and I thought *I* was a judgemental asshole, but you take the cake. But at least I can ****ing spell. :)

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Oh, so you say because a person drinks a Pepsi, he is drinking caffeine for recreation? I guess people don't get thirsty anymore, huh?

And I assume that believe that a person drinking half a beer and a whole keg are one and the same? That's what I'm reading with your statement. To me, half a beer doesn't make most people drunk while a keg will. That is what I was meaning.

I came off as harsh with my statement earlier so maybe I should add that I don't care what a person does at their own home as long as an innocent person is hurt. They can go smoke weed as much as they want, drive without seatbelts, I don't care as long as others are not being harmed. But those people will have no pity from me. They already know the risks of their actions.

Like others have said, you don't have to agree with me and you haven't. But I am offended that you call me a liar and used vulgar words that needed to be filtered out, if that is in fact what you were doing. Most people on this forum have my deepest respect, but you just lost it with your actions.

Oh, one more thing. I'm not an english major and don't expect my spelling to be perfect. You might want to check your own though, it's caffeine... ;)

Daniel

Have at it sonny. It's the biggest cash crop in WV and we can use the money. Maybe we could get a Grown in WV spread on all the plastic bags, that way you will get the best. My personal opinion, I know more growers and fewer smokers so we count on your business. You and everyone else do your thing just not here.

So Chris, as this is your of your peeves, and it is illegal, are we now opening this forum to all and everything? and I am sorry, comparing pot use to studying makes you sound, in my book like an idiot! I thought this forum was for wilderness. not political statements, or advocating illegal use of drugs. Nice to see where this forum is heading.....

Dude, what's your problem. Whatever it is, I don't care.

My point that I was trying to bring out is that not everyone is under the same umbrella. The soda thing was never meant to be taken about the hydrating/dehydrating qualities, but the fact that everyone doesn't drink it for recreational reasons.

And if you looked at my quote, I said MOST people would not be drunk with half a beer. And you further pointed it out stating that it depends on your consumption level. So it would depend on the individual person as to how much alcohol would need to be injested before the person exhibit mind alterations. That was my whole point on my first post in which you rudely critisized.

You may have not have known this, but there is such a thing as politeness. Generally speaking, when people are polite, they are often respected. Not always agreed with, but often respected. You say that vulgar language makes getting points across more effective? I say that it just shows how uncouth an individual is.

Since there is no reasoning with you. I am done, you are now on ignore.

Sorry for the off-topic posts everyone.
Daniel

Riverrat all forums Ive been on have an off-topic section.If your not interested in the subject dont click on it.I dont see the forum going to pot though.

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Originally Posted by Riverrat

So Chris, as this is your of your peeves, and it is illegal, are we now opening this forum to all and everything? and I am sorry, comparing pot use to studying makes you sound, in my book like an idiot! I thought this forum was for wilderness. not political statements, or advocating illegal use of drugs. Nice to see where this forum is heading.....

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In my opinion the one of the core tenants of this forum is freedom. Most of us like a lifestyle where we're free from government interference, probably most of us like to be as self reliant as possible.

In the end a discussion on the inappropriate ban of the growing and using of marijuana and hemp is no different than a discussion on say, at attempt to make firearms illegal, or changes to hunting and fishing license rules.

Not that survivalists all smoke pot, but the fact is, if you were trying to be 100% self sufficient and have your own homestead and be unreliant on society, hemp would be an invaluable crop to grow. It grows like a weed, pun intended, and would be your best source for rope and fabric making.

The fact that there is an activity that would make us more self sufficient that we are not allowed to do is worthy of discussion, and of course in making that discussion you can, and have to, touch on the reasons the government and others put forth as to why the plant is illegal to grow.

The history of hemp production and marijuana is fairly interesting, I wonder how many attitudes would be different is people hadn't bought the Tobacco and Cotton industry propoganda and made it illegal. It was made illegal based on lies by big special interests who wanted you to be more reliant on their products. Worthy of discussion? Yes.

Ps, sorry you think I'm an idiot.

Acutely Chris, I think you are very intelligent, at least in some things, but to compare studding with getting high, well, thats a little a little off the deep end. I have seen the other side. I lost a very good friend to drugs, we both started smoking pot together, I got caught, got my butt kicked up between my shoulders by my pop. I quit, but he did not get caught, from pot he went to Hash, then to acid. The last time I seen him alive was when he was high on angel dust and trying to kill a cop. I have seen the bad side of smoking pot, regardless of what the experts say, and I have not seen the good, except for pain relief.

I have been involved with EMS for 25 year now, in the time I have come to really hate drugs and alcohol. I live in a small rural area, I have seen to many of my friends killed or hurt by drugs, even the soft ones. Just so you know, as Stairman said, don't look if you don't like...I agree, this is the last time I will be on this thread.

Brian.