What Happened to [Wilderness] Survival?

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Originally Posted by BraggSurvivor

Hey beerrunner, you know the Montana border is only 2 1/2 hours away from me. Meet up for a beer when you get set up.

Glad to have you back bro!

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Thanks bud. I have a couple years stuck here till the wifes job ends and I am debt free. Unless my redneck IRA aka the lotto comes through. and you got it on the beer.

And thanks Crash

i find this site interesting and find myself spending alot of time reading and ocasionally posting. if i click on a thread and read the first post and am not interested is exit the tread. not a dificult concept. this site seems to be a wealth of knowledge.

i see where remmy is coming from to an extent. my thought is that whether or not i'm in the country or city my eqipment and skills are still valid. what i use here for hunting, camping, packing, and woods skills, you can use anywhere. i.e. look at new orlans for instance. if put in a situation where i need to get out. if all else fails the pack goes on the back rifle in hand and i start walking. (kind of like hunting in the mountains) stop set up camp and am good to go. the concept of being stranded by rising water because i've lived 20 years in this neighborhood and don't know anything else is uterly foreign to me.

everyone can apply woods skills for survival in just about any environment. its all prepardness and the right mental state that you can survive. i personally dont get into the end of the world scenerios, however i am very interested in homesteading and independent living and have found some great info on here. (not to mention all of the survival info)

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Originally Posted by nell67

Rick,I would argue with you,but since I am female,I would have an unfair advantage:D:p

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Hmmm. Are you saying that you feel that we are chauvinistic? :( I hope I don't personally come off that way.

Nope,not at all,women are notorious for their arguing ability!

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Originally Posted by nell67

Nope,not at all,women are notorious for their arguing ability!

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Oh.. ok. I'll agree with you there.. know that from experience... lol.. :D I can be a stubborn dutchman at times.. :D

I thought she was just saying that girls are smarter than Rick. My point was similar.....:D Mornin' Rick!:D

LMAO! I wont argue with that one Trax:D

It is all about the EGO: Everyone wants to bring the subject back to an area that they are respected for their expertise. If you know knives, that is what you want to talk about. If you know money, gold, real estate that is what you want to talk about. If you know survival shelters that is what you want to talk about. No one wants to be "OUT" of the conversation. No one wants to appear stupid. The forum is a bunch of "EGO's" looking for a chance to strut their stuff. Even the "long time members" is EGO STUFF. Junior/senior member is EGO STUFF. The whole forum is a space to sell advertising to people who want to get their EGO petted. Yes, Remy also, and yes, Me also.
Now your EGO is saying, "NOT ME".

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Originally Posted by remy

Well...that people did refer to downtown as wilderness or not is not the point.
The point is that both places work the same way, as you mention later in your post...like i said, the skills involved might be different, but the outcome is still survival.

Now, what we "aim" to survive is i think the key to our little conversation.
My field and interests are not without any controversy, call it pontificating if you will...but i see remarkably similar forces at play while talking about spear making or the economy...capsizing with your kayak or getting mugged in New York city.

If New York is not wilderness per definition and ease of communication, i still do not make a distinction, survival wise, between the two.

Back to our aim.
If you aim to survive a plain crash in the middle of nowhere...or a hunting accident, and i, an economic collapse or a pandemic, the end result, within a survival mood remains surviving. If you feel more "comfortable" talking from a "wilderness" point of you, i personally can do just that, since i can talk about economics through a wolf pack, or a salmon for all i care. Pandemics are present "in the wild" too...

What i mean, is that we think of all this as human problems, with human minds and through human eyes...when all in all, survival is universal, it touches every living organism.
And since it is a universal happening, calling it "wilderness survival" is...silly.

To be honest, what i would define as wilderness survival, would be so primitive, that none of us would fit the description. Even the most primitive guys on here still carry tools and clothes not fit for a "wilderness" title.
How is talking about generators and kayaks more "wildernessy" than how we distribute and manage our goods ?
The latest flashlight has room within wilderness survival ?
Tents ?
Rifles ?
Even knives ?
I don't know...you see, to me the line between those realms has no meanings.
Survival is survival...

What is more "wilderness survival" than native americans 500 years ago for example ?
Well...to some...not much.
Well...to me...native americans established communities...their survival skills, within wilderness, involved a lot of basic economic skills to go along with hunting or gathering skills. I never think about money in terms of "money"...but in terms of tradable items.
In the "wilderness", you might be trading paddle strokes, or steps, heat or water...makes no difference to me.

I am tired of this split between the concepts of wilderness survival, and city survival...it is a myth. Their is nothing amazing or extraordinary about living in the middle of a forest, or in an apartment in New York. Both individuals will have a certain work to do, both will face danger, doubt, joy...both will tend to thrive, and live a well rounded life...both are survivors because it is part of our DNA.

Beirut, Kosovo, new orleans, berlin...have all been the places of intense survival...of well determined individuals that understood all of the aspects of survival..."wilderness survival" is a term that i despise...because it evokes some kind of unresolved imagery of times where man was "better" not civilized, of times where it was "quiet", as if quietness was a jewel only found in remote areas. I call it the Christopher Columbus complex. Man vs. nature...give me a break. I piss on all those that climb Everest by the way.
Me and my knife...why not just you and your dick ?

Cities are indeed wilderness...concrete jungles where whores and crack heads reunite after dark, fathers and workers, buildings and roads, all life within it supported by the same forces that support your environment...by the same survival that brings us all here...If economic questions do not fit within your idea of what wilderness survival is, then you do not understand survival yet.

Money...you don't want to talk about money ?
You don't want to talk about SHTF ?
You do not want to talk about survival then...or maybe some kind of romanticized survival involving...involving what ?

Wilderness survival is not making candles out of pre-made wax or paper flutes with a comb...survival is hard work, and rests on a life or death stimuli. What if the SHTF where you are at...and your spouse becomes in need of medical assistance ? You will go to that city, you will think about economics to acquire what you need...you will need skills far beyond paddling...desperation, life or death needs...that is survival...and survival has no borders determined by what you call wilderness or not.

How can you acquire skills about a certain situation without understanding the basic mechanics of things ? It always baffles me to hear this...i just want the skill.
With just the skill pertaining to a specific situation you might be able to survive that situation...but on the other hand, if you understand the mechanics of that situation, you will be able to adapt this knowledge to any other situation!
It is the concept of the fish, or the fishing rod.
Most want a fish, thinking the fishing rod will be too much work, too heavy...too...
You want a knife, but no way will you learn about metals.
You want an extra light rifle, but in no way will you learn about alloys, mechanics, density, bullets, LOP's and so on...
I don't understand...i never did and probably never will.
If you understand muggers, fear, reactions, biology, physiology, forces, space, and yes economics and so on, you will acquire tools, knowledge, that will serve you for other situations.
My blog about fear, is not for you to think about "brain-waves", it is for you to understand that force, to manipulate it as you wish and when you wish...to understand how this force can be utilized within you, and within others...

Ahhh...too long.

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:) yes too long...Wilderness does tend to get romantisised (can't even spell that). I don't feel that way about it, I live in it, and for me it's a neighbourhood. I have some nice animal neighbours, one laid-back and friendly young black bear and a couple curious moose, a resident hermine, and I get food and water form certain places just as people do in the city. I don't think wilderness can be ever "understood" by plucking it apart into its molecular pieces because the entity and spirit of it will evade the numbers and statistics. The essence of a moose is not it's age, weight, health, sex or habitat, it's also the moose inching it's way across rotten lake ice and frolicking in the water on a hot summer day. For myself, wilderness as a place where I feel at home and where animals start to interact with me happens when I let go of analytical thinking and follow my gut feeling. It is all so interwoven that if you follow one or 100 threads of thinking, science, theory, you're apt to miss the whole. I'm interested in how I as a human can live in it, fit in, because humans did just that for the vast, vast majority of time of our evolution. "Surviving" in it to me is a short-term thing that I personally feel is only helpful in an emergency. To me, wilderness speaks to something deeply human in me. Sunlight reflecting on water, a caribou almost stepping into my kayak, seeing uninterupted forest creep up the mountains makes me happy and feel alive in a way the city, town and village can't. That's why I'm interested in it.
Actually, Chuck has a forum on wilderness living as opposed to survival (wilderness as in wilderness, not city), if anyone wants to learn more skills. He's got the website listed on his public profile.

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Originally Posted by hopeak

It is all about the EGO: Everyone wants to bring the subject back to an area that they are respected for their expertise. No one wants to appear stupid. The forum is a bunch of "EGO's" looking for a chance to strut their stuff. The whole forum is a space to sell advertising to people who want to get their EGO petted. Yes, Remy also, and yes, Me also.
Now your EGO is saying, "NOT ME".

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I disagree hopeak, in fact that posting seems kind of bitter to me. I hope I'm wrong about that. Personally, I read a lot of threads before I ever joined and read a lot more before I ever voiced an opinion. I mentioned that my concern with some of the threads is the perception of new members coming in....looking for wilderness survival advice. I do read the economic threads, but seldom have a contribution to make. I'm always willing to learn more about either, the wilderness threads or the economy, and I think a lot of other people probably feel the same way.

I think if this was about EGO, a lot of people, myself included, would probably try to look like experts in areas where they have no real knowledge. We all know we have had plenty of that in the past too.

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Originally Posted by trax

I disagree hopeak, in fact that posting seems kind of bitter to me. I hope I'm wrong about that. Personally, I read a lot of threads before I ever joined and read a lot more before I ever voiced an opinion. I mentioned that my concern with some of the threads is the perception of new members coming in....looking for wilderness survival advice. I do read the economic threads, but seldom have a contribution to make. I'm always willing to learn more about either, the wilderness threads or the economy, and I think a lot of other people probably feel the same way.

I think if this was about EGO, a lot of people, myself included, would probably try to look like experts in areas where they have no real knowledge. We all know we have had plenty of that in the past too.

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While I agree with what you say Trax, I also see what Hopeak says. Comments like "some people here have no skills, and their posts reflect it". That's a little egotistical sounding...Like saying you have all the skills and you can judge what another person can do just by what they post in the forums. While I understand what you're saying with that statement, and I'm not trying to pick on you, it struck me as a good example of what Hopeak was referring to.

Hell, I'm as egotistical as anyone else.

I try to tone it down a little. I don't try to appear to be an expert in an area where I'm not because I don't want to get anyone killed. Then there's a nasty lawsuit, etc. etc.

I think, with the possible exception of maybe Rick, that every member of the forum has been guilty of a little chest thumping every now and then. We're all human.

I am not "BITTER". I made a "MISTAKE". I am not bitter at the forum. It was my mistake. I admit that I error-ed. I am sorry, but not bitter.

I thought (In error) that the forum was about teaching and sharing usefully information about "SURVIVAL" and specifically about "WILDERNESS " survival. It is not. It might wish it was, it might think it achieves that goal. It does not.

People want to help, yes. The "FORUM" fails as a Valid "TEACHING/LEARNING" TOOL....Period.

Is it entertaining, YES. Does it sell ADVERTISING, YES. Is it a community, YES. Is it "FUN", yes.

But if I want to learn about a subject about which I know nothing, say, "CANNING FOOD".
I would not trust what was said here. Some may be valid, some maybe invalid.

Am I bitter, NO...... Disappointed with the results, YES.....

I will not post about what I have learned from thousands of close Brown Bear encounters, only to have it marginalized by someone who's only Brown Bear experience is from a book, or the city zoo.

I wanted to know what size (Horsepower) Farm Tractor to buy. So I PM'ed BRAGG and got valuable, useful information about what works, and what he has bought that is useless. I want Information from someone who owns several tractors, not regurgitated information from a book on tractors.

Sad, yes. Disappointed, yes.......Bitter,..... NO

"some people here have no skills, and their posts reflect it".

I honestly don't recall having said that, it being in quotes it seems you're attributing it to me and if I did say it, I must have left some of whatever I was thinking at the time out and I apologize to anyone I may have offended with it.

Unless of course I posted it in regard to something I thought was really really wrong being said about the subject at hand. I do get a little uppity at times.

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Originally Posted by trax

"some people here have no skills, and their posts reflect it".

I honestly don't recall having said that, it being in quotes it seems you're attributing it to me and if I did say it, I must have left some of whatever I was thinking at the time out and I apologize to anyone I may have offended with it.

Unless of course I posted it in regard to something I thought was really really wrong being said about the subject at hand. I do get a little uppity at times.

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It was paraphrased, and I may be wrong about that being attributed to you. I have read it several times on the forums though. I'm at work so I didn't have time to do a valid search on who orignally said it or the exact phrasing.

Hopeak - Where on the internet would you possibly go and get useful information that you know is correct? Not to pick on Bragg but what makes you certain his information is right? Maybe he looked it up? The forum is about everything you described including information on wilderness survival. Is there wrong information on gardening, sure. Tractor, sure. Wilderness survival, sure. It just inherent in the format. Any time you bring a diverse bunch of folks together with different backgrounds someone is going to say something that is wrong.

That's why it's important for people like you and wildwoman and WE and Trax and all the rest that live this life on a daily basis to step to the plate and say wait a minute. I've not seen anyone bashful about it yet. If I'm wrong, I want to be challenged. I say it because I believe it. Not to impress anyone. If I'm wrong and you educate me then I've learned something. Something I can keep with me the rest of my life. That's a pretty cool gift in my book. And I think the majority feel the same way.

And just because I'm feeling a little lonesome on this pedestal by myself , this is me beating my chest. (Thanks Alpine!!).

My apologies Trax...I did attribute something to you you didn't say...

Here is what I was referring to, and it's a little different than I stated it:

"There are those on here who make claim to much experience, yet their posts reveal their ignorance in many areas"

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...?t=2236&page=2 , post #36, by Sarge. This was the last one that I read that came to mind.

:o

However, I also need to add that re-reading the post by Sarge it doesn't come across as I first percieved it.

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Originally Posted by Alpine_Sapper

It was paraphrased, and I may be wrong about that being attributed to you. I have read it several times on the forums though. I'm at work so I didn't have time to do a valid search on who orignally said it or the exact phrasing.

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There have been some things said here that I have found just unbelievably stupid and I never hesitated in saying so. Someone wanting to throw ninja stars at a charging moose comes to mind. Nevertheless, for the most part I try to share what I am sure of, a long time ago someone said don't be posting things that you've never tried yourself and I follow that advice when it comes to outdoor stuff. My most important consideration is that someone doesn't get injured or worse because they followed my advice. I encourage new people to err on the side of caution, to try things at home or close to home before ranging out to where help is not available and to take extra precautions. Despite the teasing that I often use, I want others to be able to take from my experiences and have a more enjoyable experience in the outdoors (is in the outdoors an oxymoron? I digress) and I hope that people take the sarcasm and teasing in the spirit that it is meant in, fun. If not, well my bad I guess. If I'm "chest-thumping" when I state that I have certain expertise then so be it, I'm not going to pretend I'm stupid about something that I have knowledge of anymore than I'm going to pretend that I'm knowledgable about something I'm truly stupid about. We've beat it to death about outdoors versus state of the economy threads, but please note my lack of contributions on things like gardening. I suck at gardening, but I read very carefully all of the threads posted because I'm learning.

I'm at work too, by the way, and it's probably pissing my employers off to no end the lack of productivity coming out of my office since I discovered this forum. Oh well, I catch up. But, I am also a firm believer that each one of us owns what he or she says. We cannot throw statements out there that can be damaging and not bear the responsibility for that, whether the written word or in our day to day conversations. I find it unfortunate that many, many people these days don't think that. It makes us, in my opinion, less of a society and is indicative of much worse. Hence, if I never said something, I don't want people crediting me for it. I even try to get my quotes and sources properly accredited.

Alpine Sapper, I was typing all of this when you posted your response. I kindly accept your apology and state that no harm has been done.

Here's a good example of what Rick is saying. On another thread Mitch was asking about crushing pills to save space. My reply was that dosage may be a problem, but should work. Rick and Canid were quick (and very correct) to point out some of the possible hazzards of doing that which I had not considered. That's why I like the forums. We get to share ideas and learn from others experience. If those with the most experience in an area don't post for whatever reason - we all lose. There is a large mix of practical experience in a variety of fields. I hope to learn from all of you, and hope that on occasion I might be able to share some of my experiences to help somebody.

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Originally Posted by trax

T
I'm at work too, by the way, and it's probably pissing my employers off to no end the lack of productivity coming out of my office since I discovered this forum.

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lol. Yeah, you and me both. :)

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Originally Posted by Rick

Hopeak - Where on the internet would you possibly go and get useful information that you know is correct? Not to pick on Bragg but what makes you certain his information is right? Maybe he looked it up? The forum is about everything you described including information on wilderness survival. Is there wrong information on gardening, sure. Tractor, sure. Wilderness survival, sure. It just inherent in the format. Any time you bring a diverse bunch of folks together with different backgrounds someone is going to say something that is wrong.

That's why it's important for people like you and wildwoman and WE and Trax and all the rest that live this life on a daily basis to step to the plate and say wait a minute. I've not seen anyone bashful about it yet. If I'm wrong, I want to be challenged. I say it because I believe it. Not to impress anyone. If I'm wrong and you educate me then I've learned something. Something I can keep with me the rest of my life. That's a pretty cool gift in my book. And I think the majority feel the same way.

And just because I'm feeling a little lonesome on this pedestal by myself , this is me beating my chest. (Thanks Alpine!!).

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I just do not understand why it can not be improved. And Bragg owns two tractors, I could have asked a child in the inner-city who has never seen a real tractor. My point is we have knowledgeable members, and threads with 442 posts are entertaining, and confusing, just not clearly educational.