Does this still have something to do with that 7th grade gym locker room? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by randyt
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Does this still have something to do with that 7th grade gym locker room? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by randyt
Thank you Batch, it most likely does LOL.
I was the only kid in gym class that wore a hong.
That’s not “free” to the person in need. I had heard that too. Once upon a time I did not have money to afford any medical care, but had an emergency. So upon the “they have to treat you” premise I went to the ER. They fixed me. I told them I had no monies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Well I was turned over to collection agents and firms and all the merry stuff that goes with that and the damaged credit etc. etc. That version is the furthest from free their is, I guarantee! Honest to God if I had to do it over again, knowing what I know now I would NOT go to the ER and just rolled the dice with fate. True I was a wet behind the ears naive kid, but I was going off the misleading "they must treat you" rumor.
Per my understanding of a true commune the one in the OP is not. As far as longevity it’s been going over a decade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Batch
Quote:
Originally Posted by randyt
AN ACRE OF HONG??? Umm, please delete my membership and all traceTres was part of this forum! EEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeKK!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
It was the a double s that I wanted to use. Acre was my attempt to keep it PG rated. It worked until Rick showed up with his hong. LOL.
That's just an example of something not properly designed and implemented. I don't see how it can be used to discredit any left-leaning type of government.Quote:
Originally Posted by TresMon
Just like I cannot discredit right-leaning government for a flaw that'd allow anyone to abuse of the system.
And I guess it's a thing of values: I personally find it fairly egoistic to refuse to have your tax-money get used to help other people that need it.
Now if you're argument against it is that these people don't "need" it and are only abusing it, then I'm on your side. But this is, once again, just an example of how the system is not properly designed.
Do not discredit the whole ideology just because one of the things we have decided to implement hasn't been incorporated into our society correctly. Reforms and corrections are always possible.
For the concern on communes' sustainability: I guess the ones that we hear of the most are the ones created by the ideological youth, and since they are usually lacking a bit of life experience and rationality, they often fall into impossibly radical utopias that do not even follow their own values. If we try to look for older persons trying to perpetuate this kind of values, it looks like it's going pretty well. Here's a website listing a few attempts of what is called "intentional communities": http://directory.ic.org/
Different forms of progressive/left-leaning micro-communities are listed there. I think it's a database mostly oriented toward the United States' regions.
I haven't explored it much yet, though.
Tres - Of course the institutions attempt to recoup payment. I just said they can't refuse to treat you. Most patients don't give a rat's behind if it goes to a collection agency or not...if they even gave their correct name.
Payne - Notice that you've said cimmunes "attempted" or "tried" (not meaning to misquote you here). They just don't seem to succeed for a variety of reasons. I don't oppose them I just don't think they are sustainable.
I have no problem with state sponsored health care or state sponsored education as long as both offer high quality and are affordable for the supporting government. We can't afford either in the U.S. because we have chosen to spend our money, rightly or wrongly, on other endeavors.
I think if you look closely at the best examples of Communism and there are only a handful of one party Communist states you'll find they are either horribly impoverished, converting to a more democratic style to encourage class reform or both. The very same is true for socialism with some countries in both sub categories of government. China is an example as is Cuba.
Let us take a simple real world example. Let us say my neighbor is a single mom with two kids. A woman that wants to work but can't afford day care and has no skills or education to garner a higher paying job. She is currently on welfare, receives food stamps. She is currently receiving state aid that pays for her education, her rent and child care while she is in school (many states offer similar programs to enable folks to break the welfare cycle).
On the other hand, I am married with three kids. Both my wife and I work. While we are not rich we make enough to get by and some months put a little back for a rainy day.
Under your scenario I would have to give up enough of my wealth to bring my neighbor up to some middle standard where we both would be equal (considering income and gov't aid).
Both are real world examples that happen today. How is it fair that my standard of living should be compromised for my neighbor and what is her incentive to improve? In fact, the less she does the more I have to give her until both of us are in poverty.
That's pretty cool! Similar to what I want to do I guess, mind you I want to completely isolate myself and whoever wants to join me from all civilization in a 500kmX500km square patch of the northwest rockies.
Good for them in living how they wanna live though for sure!
Who's land do you plan on doing this on?Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzlyadam
Oh, the BLM of course. Since they own just about all of the Northwest Rockies in the form of national forests. The northern 2/3s of Idaho and western Montana are almost all national forests.
Crashdive123 from what I hear, which I have yet to cross reference and find out for sure mind you, there's tons of crown land in the rockies.
I'm not real up on Crown land, but it would be an important part of your planning. I have read that Canadian citizens can build non-permanent structures, but can only stay for 21 days in the same location. Not sure if new Crown Leases are still available or you would have to purchase an existing one. There was a fellow on here a while back that was looking to sell his. He had a great set up, but it wasn't cheap to buy or to maintain.Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzlyadam
Your opinion reminds me of Agent SmithQuote:
Originally Posted by Sourdough
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Na9-jV_OJI
I must say this topic has gone just about everywhere; From living off the land to living off the system, to live and let live.
heck, were even sending money to the poor people of Africa (who by the way use to live in harmony with nature until we showed up (rarely harmony with each other)
I think a truly good and working social net can only work in a country that focuses on production and buying their own goods, we've become too reliant on other countries to produce stuff for us for cheaper, in effect sabotaging our own work forces, I won't even get into what were doing to the farmers by making it so they can't produce their own seed anymore or ranchers to slaughter and sell their own meat, or sell dairy.
Slowly we are giving away all our rights to even produce our own food (legally)
Were raising a generation that feels they are entitled to a living and hoping they will create enough of a tax base to support the elderly (good luck with that one)
We our creating a mess for our children that they will be unprepared or unwilling to clean up.
Quote:
The man who makes everything that leads to happiness depends upon himself, and not upon other men, has adopted the very best plan for living happily. This is the man of moderation, the man of manly character and of wisdom.
Plato
That's why millions have died from starvation, disease and lack of clean water.Quote:
Originally Posted by NH
PartyNot to mention thousands of years of tribal and clan warfare, cannibalism, thievery, and acceptable and normal slavery of the peoples of the conquered tribes.Quote:
Originally Posted by NH
"... who by the way use to live in harmony with nature."
RICK - "That's why millions have died from starvation, disease and lack of clean water."
As for Mr. Payne's deluded and illogical endorsement of a "worldwide Communistic Utopia," if it were only "applied correctly, efficiently, and of course, fairly," by well meaning bureaucratic managers of extremely superior intellect who would know what was best for all the worker peasants, I'm afraid he's living in a dream world which has virtually no relation to reality.
That's not unusual for those young people who have been brainwashed by their Marxist Socialist inspired (and some times actual Communist Party card carriers), in schools from Kindergarten through Graduate school.
Most of their teachers and professors never have had an actual job of creating a product, a business, or getting down in the trenches and competing with others who are also striving to work hard and achieve success. Their spiel is always the same, as Mr. Payne said, "We need to take everything from those who are hardworking and successful and give it to those who aren't. Then everyone in the world will be equally miserable. That's only fair."
No matter, those who are brainwashed with the idiotic nonsense of Marx and Lenin (and I don't mean "Groucho" and "John") will almost never change their ideology even when being faced with the reality of life in the real world. It's always the same, "Well, it just wasn't applied correctly. I can do it right!!"
Mr. Payne, you might read a novel entitled Animal Farm, by George Orwell. Pretty good book. It might give you a different perspective. But maybe not.
And life goes on.
S.M.
S.M., I will not lie to you, your intervention really irritates me. Ricky has proven to be a great debater that can keep his calm and expose his point of view with a neutral approach and presenting actual facts (which I really appreciate, by the way). On your part, you sound like Joseph McCarthy.
I particularly like how you quote me on something I've actually never written/said. Your "Mr." in front of my username is also a nice touch.
I have read Animal Farm. It was a good read. If I remember properly (it's been a very long while), its basic claim isn't actually against communism, but mostly against humanity's greed. If you consider that greed is inevitable, you might as well just consider any system to be wrong and faulty.
You seem to have a prejudice over the fact that I'm young (though I think we could also argue over the fact that you have prejudices toward "communism" itself as well). I have mentioned earlier in this thread that my vision of things evolved over time based on the inputs of my every day life. Well, it is still the case. In fact, on the course of the last 10 days that I've passed alone at my father's lodge, I have read a fairly good book from Platon and did change my vision of a few things (among others, I came to start believing that democracy might not be part of the Solution).
Anyhow, there is absolutely no point in engaging into any form of discussion with someone that argues like you do. I wish you a happy life of denial and fallacies.
Let's agree to disagree at this point. Shall we?
Okay, Thread back on track.
I have spent several nights at the primitive community and it's cool. I have got to know the full time few and developed a rapport with them. I have permission to begin creating my primitive shelter. I'm moving fast/ASAP to rent out my home. the income from rent, coupled with living in the forest should be plenty of income for the duration of my forest stay.
I contacted them to know if me and 3 other friends could come visit them for 2 months in winter. They told me they didn't have enough space for us during winter. :(
The few structures are primitive and small. They have had problems in the past on cold winter days of the shelters being packed elbow to elbow with folk huddling around the fire to the point of claustrophobia nearly. That plus... they get LOTS of visitors in the warm seasons. SO with limited shelter space for winter and being worn out with visitors during warm months- they lay low and keep it to just long term members and locals in winter.
That's sad. :(
My friends and I wished to learn a bit on the side of food production and conservation. More advanced and permanent shelter-building skills would've been nice too.
How cold does Wisconsin get in winter?
Update:
Hello everyone, I been away- in the woods. I have been living with these folk I spoke of in the op. Every day is a learning experience!!
We have worked on fire wood (without any help from liquid fuel or electricity= cross cut saws) Skinned and butchered & ate Deer and Beaver. We have washed and sterilized all the empty canning jars. I have worked on my shelter site which is a nice 200' elevation climb from the main camp/work area.
We cooked every meal over open flame, parboiling, roasting or frying in bear fat.
We have made primitive music, worked in forest gardens and recon'd secret areas for special camps. I have bathed in the mtn. stream a few times. It was SO COLD I had two navels by the time I got out. I'm tired; the coyotes rallying woke me up 4 times last night. They were, I assume calling in their pack to feast on the deer carcass we left on the back side of the Mtn.
I have a hide soaking in a lye solution. It is slated to be brain tanned and end up a Loin-Hong garment for the coming hot season. I saw a spring black bear too.
The salamanders are out and are the buds.
I miss being on here so much but glad to out there living it. I'll report back with stories and pics as I can.
Now, you're living it too, TM!
Good for you, glad you're getting the experience.
Tresman Re Semper Fi
It is amazing how few people talk or perhaps even know of composting toilets. They are a real boon to water tables and other sensative to bacteria features. As to driving, why not? Insurance shows responsability and the object is to live simply BUT responsiblely. The problem is that so many people MUST have a cell phone and all the toys. I also applaude their low profile. Anything higher is going to disrupt the whole effort
Just curious here. Are the deer, Black bear, and beaver seasons still open in the State (N.C.? Tenn.?) where the commune is located, at this time of the year??Quote:
TRESMON - " ... Skinned and butchered & ate Deer and Beaver. ... or frying in bear fat.
... the coyotes ... were, I assume calling in their pack to feast on the deer carcass we left on the back side of the Mtn."
S.M.
Great to have you back! I'm glad you had a safe and joyful journey.
Thanks Mr. Currie.
SM,
& all, please refrain from referring to it as a commune, it is not. The Deer & beaver were fresh road kill. As a Moral & ethical (Christian) person I observe the hunting rules.
Good to hear it 's working out for ya....sounds intresting.
Glad you are enjoying your time spent with the group. Sounds like you are learning from each other.
Tres
Isn't it also curious how the rural habits of sharing and helping are morphed into commune which has negative connotations in many N American minds.
And it is Allen despite my advanced age. Grin
I always strive to please. "Group" it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by TresMon
Glad no one is poaching. I know of a few "groups" back in the late '60s and '70s who had no problem with poaching deer and other game. It was a "Screw authority!," thing with them.
Best of luck with your new found friends.
S.M.
Glad for you. Wish I could join.
Keep us updated! :D
Well Tres, are you going to stay with them forever, or is this just a learning mission? Wouldn't blame you for staying if you like it, and it fits your lifestyle! We have been missin ya buddy!
I would like to stay long term is all I know for now.
Thanks for the kind words.
You seem to be talking about Ontario. It varies from province to province. But even in Ontario one can get a permit to occupy for specific reasons such as mining or logging, etc. Then you can avoid moving 100 meters every 21 days. But still the buildings must be mobile. If you are say, thinking of a mine you get a specific permit to prospect or develop. Once you have done a specific development you will be offered a lease (Read expensive) and you can either accept or leave.Quote:
Originally Posted by crashdive123
Other provinces have things like homesteading programs. In others it is quite easy to lease almost anywhere and fairly cheaply. Downside is that few can exist/live on that particular patch of rock.
Allen
Payne
Read some of your previous posts which tended to deal with each person being paid the same regardless of occupation. You should study Robert Owen, a brilliant person and businessman. Way ahead of his time. He refused to employ children under 14 (a common practice at the time.) and instead insisted that the children of his employees be educated. He paid a living wage which produced unbelievable productivity. People fought, in one case to the death, for the opportunity to work for him.
Eventually, to avoid local naysayers and laws, he sold his London knitting mills and took the machinery to Salt Lake Utah where he started a city. He set up the worlds very first commune. Marx and Engels based their thoughts on his work, but they tweaked it to "correct" the problems he encountered. Then the politicians selected those parts they wanted and discarded the rest. (The usual way with politicians.) We got what we now know as communism. (commune-ism)
In the meantime his commune established a pay scale called an hour. A tailers hour was equal to anyone elses hour, a laborer or a doctor. Nor did that hour take into consideration efficiency. They soon lost all the more skilled workers and eventually the experiment failed The "city" was abandoned to go on to a very colorful future by various religiius groups
Allen
Tresmon
Good on ya. Follow your heart, there and elsewhere.
Allen
Looks like a good read. I'll write it down, and see if I can find some books in the libraries I'll find while travelling. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Currie Author
I moved in! Been there 7 weeks now........
TM, just curious...
What your every day routine like?
Are weekdays different from weekends?
What's your set up as far as living quarters?
What's your favorite aspect of living like this and the least favorite?