That my friend is one point , the Govt is trying to put people back to work and those people need something to do , what better then to do this . They would start off looking for ?????? what ever the Gov wanted , just name the Poison or person LOL
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That my friend is one point , the Govt is trying to put people back to work and those people need something to do , what better then to do this . They would start off looking for ?????? what ever the Gov wanted , just name the Poison or person LOL
What do you think the purpose of this would be? What would the government gain?
I used to work for a private organization which worked on a consultant basis with Dept. of Homeland Security. One of the major problems with domestic intelligence is there is already much more information collected than there are people to organize and analyze it. And this is just concerning terrorism suspects, which thankfully are a small percentage of the population. To try to do this with every person in US is physically impossible, and what would be the point? And going along with this hypothesis, if govt. were to hire the number of people it would take to do this, do you have any idea what that would cost, just in salaries and benfits, never mind the cost for the computers that would be required. on top of this, these billions of employees would all have to have security clearances, and who would do these millions of background checks. The Democrats had a breakdown over the NSA and military listening to phone calls to Afghanistan. Do you really think this Democratic administration is going to attempt this Big Brother scenario? What you are suggesting was pretty much what the Stasi did in east germany during the Cold War. it is posssible in a small, Communist state, but it is not in a large democratic one.
AH HA! chiangmaimav, you're basing your premise on the notion that America is still a democratic state then!
(how was that Crash?)
Trax, watch Ken. Ken, watch Crash. Crash, watch Sarge. Sarge, watch Coot. Coot, keep an eye on the liqueur. Tennecedar, you watch Coot, too. Can't be too careful with the liqueur.
Pity the guy that has the job to chase down Native Dude and stick an RFID in him. He had better be well acclimated to the cold. He may be layin' out there a loooooong time.
Remy, I just thought of something. If are computers are going to be like you say, well then XP might mean Extra-*****. If you know what I mean :innocent
We've talked about those guys before. They had a test program in south america where they were trying the GPS stuff. Mysteriously enough it went quietly away. Probably lack of funding.Quote:
Originally Posted by remy
I think Remy gave a nice summary of the possibilities. I think he is right on the mark.
If we examine the available technologies today we have multiple forms of wireless communication, we have extremely high throughput data pipes for consolidation of massive amounts of information. We have efficient storage capacity and amazingly we have strong search, analysis, and filtering algorithms for sorting all of that information.
I am not confused about where this will go. Being a technologist I can see the "direction of the road". More importantly all of this technology is growing at an exponential rate.
Look at how fast we have come from horse drawn carriages to being able to communicate with each other through "air waves". It took less than 100 years. The computer age has swept the world in less than 20 years. I do not think it will take much time for an "implantation/marking" movement to sweep the globe.
First I must say that it will be some sort of communication technology, but I cannot say what it will be. I cannot say it would be RFID for sure, but maybe something similar? With nano-tech growing rapidly it could hang on that technology. The main thing is that there are several pre-conditions that will have to be met.
1) The world will make a shift to a "global economy". This means that there will be a unification of currencies to make trade, commerce, etc. more convenient. We have already seen a huge step in this direction with the institution of the Euro. If the U.S. subjugates itself to "International Law" we could see a change in our currencies, although that seems so highly unlikely at this point in time. Russia and China recently began to talk about their desire to do just this.
2) There will have to be a compelling "altruistic" reason for these new technologies to be implanted or instituted. For me it is not so hard to believe that it could happen. Just as vaccinations seemed to be some brutal arcane method the world was quick to embrace it when the results were so powerfully apparent. Most likely this compelling reason is going to hinge on point number 1. With a global economy the implant will grant people accessibility to interacting into this new advanced, global, "one-world' (each one reach one) system.
It will be touted as a way to keep track of family and friends, for consolidating all your bills, transactions. Keeping current on your insurance, medical history, personal assets, submitting your taxes, tracking job history, credit history, etc. etc. With technology today we can have everything related to one person maintained in a central database for ease and convenience.
3) This movement will of course start voluntarily, but slowly gain momentum. As it grows a new shift will occur where governments will start to mandate participation. Rationale being that with the advent of technology and modern commerce paper currency is outdated. In order to give the earth and environment a break the destructive practice of minting mined metals and using paper for currency should be phased out and electronic currency would be the norm. At that point people would have no other alternative but to join or they would not be able to participate in the commerce system.
That is how I see it happening. I give this movement about 10 years to start and that is a conservative estimate.
Native Dude's out there alright, he's watching Rick!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
@ grundle. There is a huge leap that has to be made between technology and moral acceptance. I could see the scenario you described having greater potential than anything being forced on the population. To some degree, it's already here. This one is several years old.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3697940.stm
How about the cop who's weapon will only fire if his RFID is next to the weapon?
How about home security or vehicle security?
How about no credit card? Just an RFID.
There are a lot of scenarios one can dream up that would make them acceptable. My only disclaimer has been I don't think the gov't will be able to force its use.
As for a world base currency? Just a matter of time. It's the natural progression in a global economy. There really isn't any reason to have as many currencies has the world has. If 100 dracmas are equal to one dollar then do away with the dracmas and give the guy a dollar (or Euros or Yin or whatever it turns out to be). Then he competes one to one in the world economy.
Good post. You did a nice a job.
Rick - I agree its usage will not have to be enforced. My premise was not that governments will have to force people to use it, but rather the impetus to be able to participate in economy will naturally "herd" most people in that direction.
In today's society when things become inconvenient people "fall in line". Most people would rather take the easy way than suffer any sort of inconvenience. Heck most people have no clue what to do if their most basic life necessities suddenly disappeared.
You are right about possible scenarios. I really don't know the specifics, I can only point in the general direction.
This scenario would never be accepted by American public. Not only that it would be impossibly expensive and noone has the time, the money or the inclination to stick chips in everyone and monitor their every movement. Anyone who has worked in intelligence or surveillance can testify to this. There may someday be elimination of hard currency in America but it will be a long time b efore the rest of the world gets to that point. In some countries here in SE Asia they dont even have ATM machines.
That is why it has to be a progressive movement. Starting first as a voluntary program and slowly evolving to the scenario I described.Quote:
Originally Posted by chiangmaimav
The idea is not to "monitor every movement". You would run pattern analysis algorithms. Anything that deviates from an acceptable pattern curve would raise a flag that might be considered for further checking.
I don't think that this would be a terribly expensive venture from the "implanting" side of the project. The major expense would be the back-end infrastructure for consolidating all the personal information and maintaining the various transactions and pertinent daily logged activity. This is also a very doable project from todays technological perspective.
What I am describing is not out of the realm of imagination. You do bring up a very compelling point though. There are plenty of countries in South East Asia, Africa, and South America that are far behind technologically speaking.
The infrastructure will already be in place from the drivers license, and as far as third world countries, if you don't let them leave without the id, then they are kept in the jungle in a primitive lifestyle and really no threat to anyone until their resources run out, and then they are assimilated.Quote:
Originally Posted by grundle
Tomorrow I'm cutting the grass.
You not having ATM machines does not prevent us from having them.
Tomorrow, you will need a "passport" to enter Manhattan.
Tomorrow, you will have no more plane tickets on paper or needs for your paper/plastic ID.
Tomorrow, worlds lagging technologies will fall into deeper depth...we will eventually forget about them.
Tomorrow, you will think actions, and they will materialized inorganically.
Tomorrow, failing body parts will be repaired through nano-technology.
Tomorrow, your children will have holographic companions.
Tomorrow, the connected world, the only world, will disconnect us from nature to a point where being will mean existing, and existing will mean hive-ing.
All connected, yet all disconnected.
All seeing, yet all blind.
Didn't Keanu Reeves star in that?
You misunderstand Alpine Sapper. The infrastructure from the Driver's License is only one aspect of a person's life. You still have to consolidate their salary, their assets including credit holdings (such as mortgage and car loans etc.) All of that must be connected with a banking institution(s). Don't forget any stock holdings, mutual funds, retirement benefits, any and all insurances held by that person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine_Sapper
All of those things which involve multiple companies would have to be consolidated and organized. That entails writing up a standardization document and then submitting it to those organizations so that they can update their systems to comply with the new standard.
The most recent event that followed a similar vein, but not quite as extensive, that I can think of would be Sarbanes Oxley compliance.
As for the third world countries, they would have a huge burden to establish an adequate technological infrastructure before being able to cooperate. Not an easy task for many of them, who are more focused on infighting and local politics than engaging in the world economy.
This is definitely an interesting discussion. There are many sides that deserve to be explored, but I do think that what I outlined as the end-result is ineviteable
We have that, to a large extent, today. Although fragmented between agencies, departments and retailers. The marketing card you use at the grocery store, driver's license, social security and all the rest are really the very same thing we are talking about. It's just not consolidated into a single platform, whatever that might turn out to be. I must have 30 travelers cards between various airlines' frequent flier miles, rental car and hotel frequent stay cards. One device that could intelligently handle all of my transactions would be an interesting offering. Add in some of the things above such as home and car security, passwords for investment and financial institutions and it would almost sell itself. You wouldn't have to develop a bizarre scenario such as implantation either. Just carry on your person. If it becomes impossible to operate without it you've accomplished the same thing essentially.
Yes he did. And far be it from me to take a thread off topic, but apparently he's now starring in "the Day the World Stood Still" I'm thinking if it's based on anything Keanu does, how will they know?Quote:
Originally Posted by tennecedar
I don't worry much about our government controlling me or much of anything else. My personal experience having taken money for services rendered to them is very simple.
Our Government can screw up a two car funeral without outside help.
The two main primary functions are licensing and healthcare. If they can roll your drivers license into an all encompassing license, so once they run your number they can verify your ability to drive a car, own a gun, own a dog, or anything else that requires a registration/background check, then it makes it easy. Then they tie your NCIS information to it, and ensure all local law enforcement has entered the digital age and is sharing information. That piece of it is right around the corner no matter what. As well as integrating your healthcare information with it. Now, anyone with common sense can see that that is oh, a 5 year plan if fasttracked. While that is going on, they implement theonline healthcare, which was part of the stimulus package. If you don't believe me, go look up the details of Obama's package and see for yourself. So by the end of those five years they will have almost everything but your NCIS information and your financial information tied to it. If during those five years they ensure that they have one centralized application that can reference the databases those systems are currently using, they can then simply roll everyone out to an interface for that application for their department such as the DMV or the Police, and they have access to their little piece of the pie with all the systems being integrated. I'm not saying it's a global conspiracy, but you said it yourself when referencing Sarbaines Oxley. Essentially, ok, policy has changed, now you must comply with x regulations by x year or you can't function as a business anymore. They did it to the auto industry repeatedly with the California Emissions Regulations and that's just one example. Previously I mentioned the drinking age. There are tons more examples where our government has done EXACTLY that. The NCIS system itself is an example of what I'm talking about. A bunch of individual little pieces, each with their own jurisdiction, all lumped into one information sharing system. They didn't roll it out overnight. The bigger cites implement it first and then it has a trickle down effect until it has completely saturated it's target market.Quote:
Originally Posted by grundle
As for the 3rd world countries, what I'm saying is that if they implement this within the united states, and during that time they try to "globalize" the system, let's just say Obama get's elected to a second term, and during this term our relationship with France and Germany get's even stronger. At that point, how hard would it be to convince the EU to adopt that system and move forward? Ok, so anyone not in NATO, (Iraq, North Korea, et all) has to either get on board, or can't travel to those countries. Just like with the electronic passports. The states that refused to adopt it will not be provided federally regulated travel services (airplanes) to their citizens after 2011 or whatever. In other words, do it or we make it SO inconvienant you can't do it any other way. But you don't HAVE to do it...) So if you are in a third world country, you cannot leave without getting integrated into the system. If you want to leave ethiopia and get to the US, or Brittain, or anywhere else, "I'm sorry sir, but we cannot approve your Visa until you have completed the Globalized ID process and have been issued a proper ID. Please fill out these forms declaring your PHP, bank account information, criminal background, etc. etc. The background check will be completed and your passport + new ID will be mailed to you within 10 weeks."
Anyone who's ever applied for a passport should notice only nominal changes from the current process, even if you are a GI overseas.
So no, I didn't mis-undertand, I just pushed FF for about 15 years, once the drivers license has been in place for 12 years or so, and they've had time to work out the kinks in the consolidated all in one system and it has started the push into globalization via the first world countries. Once everyone has embraced the technology, THEN they make it mandatory. Kinda like a drug dealer giving your first 2-3 packs for free, then once your hooked and have no choice putting price tag on it.
My point was in agreement with yours. THey'll make it voluntary until they KNOW it works, and have seen it in motion, and had time to perform the AAR's, and revamp as necessary. Once that is done then they FORCE it, and if you are from a poor country and haven't been integrated yet, just wait your turn and we'll get to you. In the meantime, if you have need of it, we'll get you onlined without to much of hassle. :innocent:
Alpine Sapper that was great. Your extrapolation on the subject was well put. I am in agreement with your viewpoint.
When you mentioned the "drivers license" I guess it was an oversimplification, but now I get what you were saying. We basically said the same thing.
The only thing that MIGHT stand in the way of that is State Sovereignty. The states could say, No, we aren't going to pay for that. If you want it, Mr. Fed, then you get to pay for it OR not within our border. Since driver's licenses are state directives it could slow things down.
Otherwise, I think the scenario is not only feasible but probable.
*takes a bowQuote:
Originally Posted by grundle
Thank you. In case you can't tell, I've been thoroughly enjoying this discussion. :)
I figured some might have missed the previous novella I wrote in agreement with Rick's point that it won't be an implanted chip, but something like your cellphone. I just ID'ed the methodology that they are most likely going to push forward with IMHO. Not saying it won't turn into an implant eventually, but for that to occur they'll have to crush the spirit of society a little further. There are still to many of us that are armed and against the branded cattle lifestyle this could lead to. Now, another 20 years of stripping liberty from you while making you like it? Society may be subdued enough to stand in the stall and take the brand.
A couple of thoughts on Law enforcement:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine_Sapper
Within my life time: Officers I worked with when I first started would drive around town. When they saw the "blue light" go on over city hall, they would find a phone and call the telephone operator to find out what the call was.
Later, after car radios became more common (took up the entire trunk of the car), officers would run a license plate or drivers license information by radioing dispatch. The dispatcher would phone down to the state capital where someone would manually look through the folders until the information was retrieved and it would be phoned back to the dispatcher who would radio it to the squad. A half hour was a pretty smoking good time.
Today, I have a computer in my squad. I have access to all the state information at my finger tips. I can look up any state DL or vehicle information. To look up criminal history through NCIS - I have to have a case file number (which are audited periodically - thank God). However, we are now on a reporting system that includes five counties. This will show any contacts that anyone in the five counties has had with law enforcement, not just convictions, but anything. I certainly don't see this shrinking. It makes it easier to do my job, but on another level - it concerns me.
So in your opinion, how long before you have all the counties in your state at your accessbility, or is that a jurisdictional thing? I know certain warrants become "Regional" warrants, so, say, South Texas it won't show up unless you get pulled over by a state trooper, but if set foot in the next county or a few over, once you are in their "Region" the warrant will show.Quote:
Originally Posted by RBB
When I referenced NCIS it was mainly more of invoking an already existing CI database. I honestly think they will just online a couple of server clusters that consolidate all the state information you were talking about, and then expand it from there to include any contact, as you describe. The individual technology that they choose to incorporate into the system isn't as relevant as how easy it would be to piece meal that together until you have working coherent system, and that it could feasibly be done over the next decade imho.
Speaking of law enforcement it would be a "brilliant" victory for investigation if we consider the case where people have already been implanted with this device that has some sort of locator or GPS capability.
Imagine, then a murder occurs. To generate a list of suspects you would estimate the time of death and the make a list of all personal ID numbers who were in that general area when the crime occurred. From that list you could probably find the criminal much quicker than our current response time. Especially since you can just drive right to them, using the same location technology.
It would be heralded as the next great breakthrough in law enforcement, since the discovery of DNA.
It is possible that such a device could become a mandatory sanction for prior offenders, or violent criminals who are up for release. Once the viability is proven the system/government whatever could then say that if everyone wants safety, and who doesn't want that, they should get this. The current outrage over child sex offenders seems to be a strong indicator. People would automatically know if one of these offenders wandered into a school zone, etc. since the system would raise a flag when he did.
Just some ideas. I forgot to consider this angle of the problem.
So learning how to clone the chips is going to be essential. Kinda like they used to do with cellphones. Modify a ham scanner to pick up the right frequencies, attach an EEPROM to the scanner, and everyone that walks by with a phone on broadcasts their information which you capture, decode, and clone into a new cell. boom, you got a device on their account. Same concept, but it's stealing the ID (in one feel swoop) vs. just the cell service.Quote:
Originally Posted by grundle
Cloning, or you could also resort to "spoofing" which is just emulating a false signal that is taken as a real one. That is probably an easier approach and results in much more anonymity.
Of course...not bearing an implant will be even more anonymous.
But probably not allow you passage through the "normal" avenues, like walking down the street. You might be able to circumvent the system by staying to crawlspace/steam tunnel types of places. *shrug* This is now so far into sci-fi speculation there isn't really coherent probables that could be made at this time, imho.Quote:
Originally Posted by grundle
Sorry that I have been just sitting back and reading . But you guys have taken this and run with to places that I never thought of ...Thanks this is a great read
YES. There have been many left-wing, liberal Congressmen and Senators that have pushed for that very thing. Starting with chipping babies as they're born.Quote:
Rick wrote: "Does anyone honestly believe there is a politician that would vote for having anything implanted in people involuntarily?"
They (Gov't zealots) claim "chipping" babies and infants will help to reduce the number of kidnapping incidences. In reality it would be a way of tracking and keeping an eye on them with the click of a mouse!
No passport, D.L. yes, S.S. # no, phone # no, address a P.O. Box and credit cards no.Quote:
Rick wrote: "You already have a passport, drivers license, social security number, a phone number an address, credit card numbers....get the picture?"
EXACTLY!!Quote:
Rick wrote: "Remember when you were a kid and HAD to say the pledge of allegiance. Think about that. Forcing children to pledge their allegiance to the country. Sounds like something we would have expected from 1930s Germany. I'll bet there are few younger people that even know the words today. The point is, if a government truly wants control of the population, they start by indoctrinating the children. In 20 years you have a population that WANTS to follow government dogma because they believe it is correct. You don't start by beating old men into submission. You might get them to walk a straight line but you'll never get them to believe in it. You start with the kids. Just my .02.
Again. . .EXACTLY!!Quote:
Rick wrote: "I also believe there is a lot of censorship in public educations. Groups forcing their own agenda. Probably why so many home school today.
I see home schooling as positive reinforcement that the government is not all that interested in controlling our personal lives. That would be one of the first things outlawed if it wanted to control young minds.
While hesitant to dregde up an old post, I didn't figure this needed it's own thread, so,
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/19/us...mc=rss&src=igw
Yeah, but it is the New York Times reporting....so you also have to ask if it is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine_Sapper
They printed it on the intarweb thing, so it must be true, right? :ohmy:Quote:
Originally Posted by crashdive123
http://smileyshut.com/smileys/new/emot96.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Alpine_Sapper
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