http://bill-hay.com/
THAT Bill Hay?
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http://bill-hay.com/
THAT Bill Hay?
i am going to assume so ..
yeah, if that's the same guy he sure seems to know his stuff all right, so cool, tell us something from your vast experience bill. On the other hand, people who are on a mind-body-spirit healing journey aren't usually sarcastic and rude (that's why I'm sarcastic and rude, I'm not on that journey) I value and respect anything useful here. Not so sure it's the same guy, myself.
Be careful, he knows Karate! If this is the same Bill Hay then he should be more in keeping with the spirit of the Karateka! My kid brother, his wife, and both sons all have black belts in Hapkido, Tae Kwon Do. You youngest son has just aqquired his brown belt in Karate (JKA Style). I, myself studied the Gojo Ru, Style but prefer the "gentle art" of Jiu Jitsu that I had to learn while trying to survive the wilds of the streets of Chicago. (close to the Loop). This "Braggart, Arragant" bit makes me think "Poser"! And if I'm wrong then, Bill, shame on you! Nothing you've been through gives you the right to be a smarta*s!:mad:
Yeah it is arrogant. I've met a lot of woodsman, some of whom have been obnoxious, but rarely arrogant and insulting of anothers skills (joking maybe). It's been my experience that woodsman who love what they do are usually eager to teach, and slow to put people down.
Foggy you nailed it.
Some circles it seems that I know alot, other circles I feel like a greenhorn. But in all circles we always educate each other. Funny what some newbees bring to the table.
Why didn't I think of that?
what he said!Quote:
Originally Posted by FVR
And the answer is? To thy own self be true. It appears that no matter what we reply someone shoots down all or part of any idea that is brought up. I think that we should thank any and everyone who post a idea or sugestion, right or wrong we can learn even from bad advice as we can engage our brains and say I don't think that would work very well. We all come from different back grounds and times . No one goes into the bush with out a plan even if you just have a knife and a hank of string and a time to return, if a unexpected event occurs that threatens your well being and you survive it then you have practiced survival. The way I practice these skills that may come in handy is to good camping and the experiment and perfect these skills and see what does and doesn't work. I also think that being rude to people who don't think like me just robs me of potentially valuable infofmation it doesn't cost any thing to be polite usually the person we insult is doing just that.
I have taught survival in the military in almost every course offered that had something to do with adaptability to environment / surroundings.
I have sought out and joined and then unsubscribed immediately for the exact same thing as sarge is talking about.
look...what is going on here and in 99% of all the other groups and forums is really "preparedness." True "SURVIVAL" as applied here and there is trying to make do with that which is at hand. Not a game of semantics or word definitions, like I "SURVIVED" a drowning. How many of you are out at work during the course of the day? you are away from your home, perhaps miles, hundreds of miles in some cases. you are in a suit and tie. something unexpected and of epidemic proportions happens. you must survive. you need to live , to find you children, or your mom and dad, your friends and neighbors. so its down to you must "SURVIVE" and adapt...scavenge make use of what you find. create design....LIVE. Live for yourself, for your family, if at all possible. You need shelter, warmth, food, etc. weapons of some sort
because you do not know what to expect. If there is looting, you can expect death and injury. This scenario frightens me as I have many minor children and an autistic son as well. I can not convince my family to even take CPR, let alone anything else, creature comfort mentality will get most people dead in the long term. and lets not talk about "URBAN SURVIVAL". as anyone who has multi theater combat experience will tell you, it is the worst combat and survival situation. does not matter how many buildings are standing and cars etc. there are 13 yr old children that kill on a daily basis, with impunity, they have no developed moral compass. This is my first post and I am not trying to upset anyone, but the fact are the facts. I am scared for myself and my family. I have cancer and an obvious financial setback and I worry what my family and friends will do. I cannot survive in the urban jungle the way things are. can you?!!! I can and have survived in many rural and wilderness settings, but it was either just me or myself and others like me and the rules of engagement, so to speak, were different. we should provide profitable information on the actualites and specifics each according to his/her own specialty that can be applied in the here and now. to learn now, to use now. and all these things that cost so much money do not belong here because money will not help in a major disaster. consider Katrina, do you think that those survivors had no money. likewise, more then 57% of the population is either working from paycheck to paycheck , or poverty level and below. Less then 11% of the pop it above that. the information and reference to resources will help in the here and now as well as in the future. Thank you for listening to my spiel.
Be well and take care
Marcus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge47
Quite a spiel indeed. Please hang around as long as you can. We have another member here who suffers very badly in the health arena, but we appreciate your input!Quote:
Originally Posted by wildthing423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge47
I apologize for exposing everyone to my case of hoof and mouth disease. I just have been looking at many different forums and groups, google groups, yahoo groups, alt survival and the like, and there is such a leaning toward comfort , like this one group, survival retreat, lets all build a survival condo. truth be told, it is a lighthouse or beacon to others. then there was all those political discussions and flaming on 3 of the groups on Google. You have this American who hates everyone and the British guy and his wife who believes that G.B. will be the only place livable in ten years and all the people from most other parts of the world who just plain hate America. what place did this have in a supposed survivalist group, or rather a group to exchange information to assist and teach and help others in given situations of extreme misfortune. well I just thought that this post of yours was appropriate and spoke exactly what I had been thinking.
Marc
Wolf brother. Welcome to the Wolf-Pack. You should be comforted to know that flaming is not allowed here. If you see someone posting things not appropriate to survival that's not always a bad thing as we've sort of grown together here and sometimes find ourselves sharing more of our thoughts and ideas as we grow as a group. Finally, it is not a crime to ignore threads you don't feel comfortable about. Recently we had some guys sign up that live in Canada and have planned on going out into the wilds of Manitoba Canada with nothing but their knives and the clothes on their back, filming themselves in the process. Just about everybody here thought they were wrong, and they don't care. Our administrator has since created a blog site for diary/journal entries elsewhere that should work for that very thing. The point here is that they are not banned even though 99% of us feel like there idea is a bad one. Welcome again!Quote:
Originally Posted by wildthing423
i agree with what you have said wildthing as you will learn i always preach
always be prepared.
i go to work on a daily basis with a kit in my van and a plan with my wife to meet if we have to. in about a month she will be at home full time and we will be building a bunker for her to hide out in in necessary and i will be able to make my way home. i have fought multi theater myself in desert and in urban i understand your rant. i too worry about the 13 yr old being able to kill and sleep like a baby i have faced it first hand. i am always prepared to do what i have to to survive which is why i always have my kit close by to help assist me in that en devour. welcome home you will enjoy it here.
rangers lead the way..
One book i am in the process of reading is actually entitled "wilderness survival" it is a story of the expidition along with instructions on how to mak, build, catch, things like that.
In this book it states that many people first think of a skinny shivering person in a cold cave. but this book also refers to latin words "super vivere" wich super would mean above or superior and vivere meaning to live or life. This can be interpreted as meaning superior living.
This is somewhat true if applied to what we think of as survival in the wilderness,
While i am in the woods i dont have to deal with things such as schoolwork or stressors in general, meaning i feel like i have a better life tere than i do in the city......although that is not always true for everybody.
I agree with wildthing423. And never apoligize unless you feel you were wrong, I liked your 'rant' or 'spiel' and have had several myself. Good writing bro.
To go off on a writing spiel, tells me that what you have to say comes from your heart and experience. Otherwise you would not write anything at all.Quote:
Wildthing423 wrote:
". . .Thank you for listening to my spiel."
I believe that everybody that writes here, says what comes from their hearts and experiences.
To see someone being misguided, be it through written advice, hands-on teaching, or some other mode, makes us upset. While there are many way to do the same thing, watching or reading what a person teaches or says to another, and knowing that it might be wrong, causes us to take action. Why? Because those of us that react in such a manner do so form our heart.
It is what keeps our "Moral Compass" pointing north!! :D ;)
Let's look at "defining Survival", what do ya all think it means? Start at the beginning and work back, then respond if you can. I think it's very important.:cool:
I've been reading some of the older post on this forum, and one by SARGE posted back in Aug of 07 caught my attention."Defining survival" camping vs survival and hands on training and the likes.I believe skills can be taught and techniques can be taught but not survival.Survival is something we have or we do'nt. maybe this is'nt the best example,the old hold dog that moves in low and at just the right time and angle not to get cut.He did'nt learn it he was born with it, born in his ancestors eons ago or the horse that would run through the woods at full stride for what seemed like hours and then stop and take a deep breath and hold it and listen for the dogs then change directions acordingly without somuch as a sound from his rider,not taught behavior, born behavior, we've been trying to harnes this attribute in our domesticated animals for years. Some have it some do'nt people are the same.One example/experiance I had as a teen ager set this in me like stone, four of us duck hunting on the great pee dee late afternoon, "cold as all get out" drift shooting we called it,snaged a log mid boat and capsized , we had planed on camping that night and to hunt the next mourning on our way to the next landing so we were geared up real good. By the time we all made it out of the river none of us had a gun no supplies nothing but the wet clothes on our backs tweenty miles from the nearest road, no one paniced every one striped down and mark whom at the time smoked that wild parsley, got a little case,water proof nontheless and comes out with some ciggarett paper and a bic lighter by day light we had boats every where.... the point is nobody paniced every body was doing something conducive to SURVIVAL and I believe to this day we would have suvived if we had been in the same situation on mars.I't was in our nature...
I have some mixed feelings about that. Certainly, we possess some instinct geared toward survival but I'll bet you could have put any number of people in that same situation and they would not have been able to get a fire going and might have continued wearing their wet clothes trying to stay warm.
I think there is a lot of skills learning that takes place and it begins (if we are lucky) when we are very young. Observing what our fathers and uncles do then mimicking them and finally participating in activities with them. All part of the learning process.
Our survival instincts are like a straight green stick still growing on the tree. Our skills learning draws a sharp point on the stick and fire hardens it so we can do more than just survive.
I'm not discounting your opinion at all. You might well be correct. I just think a lot of animals (including us) learn by mimicking what older, wiser animals do.
there was an interesting lab study along these lines involving the survival/struggling inclination of rats. i'll see if i can dig it up.
Point taken.. But thats like applied knowledge,Someone reads a book on how to build a house,knows every detail ,very aspect and yet can't drive a nail.Then you have a person who can't read has no formal education,yet can build elaborate structures,or a person that can do every thing you can imagine,if someone shows them.....I guess thats why some lead some follow and some expect to be carried,or maybe I'm confusing inhereted for instinctive I do'nt know just stuff I have noticed..
My original point was more basic, less "psychological" than what you're saying here. It's not that I don't agree with you, I do, however I was trying to define different areas of "outdoor activity". You're delving into the person them self. Everybody has been born with the instinct of "Self-Preservation". If you don't believe me try throwing anybody you know into the deep end of a swimming pool and watch them either swim to the edge & pull themselves out or thrash around TRYING to save themselves, and possibly drown in the process. I'm willing to bet that you'll never see anybody who quite calmly allows themselves to sink to the bottom of the pool and perish unless there's a physical/mental problem to begin with.
For example,I don't believe that anybody is "born" already knowing how to start a fire or build a shelter; they had to learn it somewhere. Unlike the lower life forms on this planet, we have to be taught everything nessasary to sustain life; eating, walking, talking, etc. True, some people might not have the "WILL" to survive, and maybe that's what you're talking about. That, however, does not nessasarily imply that they never had the instinct to begin with, they have probably lost the will to fight for their life over their years going through life being beaten down by an uncaring social system that has the ability to reduce man to a rubble. In other words, either way, the "mind-set" is "aqquired", not inheirited. Remy will probably join in on this a bit later on, it's his "backyard".:cool:
All great points from both of you.
Oh boy ..I feel another nose bleed coming on, your right though sarge it all comes down to the human will. I'm much more suited to the,what's the better rock to throw aspect anyway.....seen some real peculiar animal behaviour this mourning,Might be an interesting subject when the hunting, gathering comes back up
Camping or Surviving? Don't you think this all comes down to the question of choice? If you "choose" to do it, you're camping. If don't "choose" to do it, but have to in order to stay alive, that's surviving.
Going into the wilderness taking everything you need/want/can carry to make your stay pleasurable (whatever your definition of that is) is camping.
Going into the wilderness to try out survival skills you've read about, or have been shown, or haven't used for a while, is practicing. You may or not use these skills when camping.
When something goes wrong and you're forced to use those skills, not for fun, or for practice, but to save your life, that's surviving.
Yes? No? Maybe?
Well said. I think you are correct.
My point exactly, although the idea of "not having fun" is not always applicable. In his book, "The Complete Book Of Outdoor Survival", J. Wayne Fears relates the following:
"I recall fondly one hunter I helped find in Georgia. He had been lost for two days, and when we found him he had established himself a homestead.In fact, he had built himself such a cozy camp that we used it for an overnight rest before packing out.On the way out, he told us that his "ordeal" had been a ball and he planned to get lost again soon"
Now I understand that the above situation is not always the case, but the better one is in the woods, the more prepared they are with the proper clothing, equipment, skills, & mindset, the better their chances are for coming out of it all alive! Just my opinion, what do you all think?:confused::cool:
On the surface, I agree. I think a lot depends on why you got into trouble in the first place.
If you purposely go into an area with little or no water, no natural shelter materials or you have to make a shelter from natural materials, and little in the way of food, then you are in a "survival" situation. If you go with all the accoutrements, i.e; tent, sleeping bag, etc., then you are "camping".
Some of my friends and I are going "surviving" this summer. We plan to bring a car-load of emergency stuff, some emergency stuff with us where we decide to shelter, and some first aid kits on person at all times. We also plan to have a flashlight, glow stick, whistle, and knife on each person all the time, along with emergency food (beef jerky would probably be best, or trail mix).
This is NOT a survival situation because we aren't at risk of dying in the wilderness. HOWEVER, I think we're conforming to your definition by way of our golden rule: You can't use any of this sh*t or you lose. It's not a competition, but if you have to use anything besides your on-person first aid (it's assumed that you could have made this kit our of ripped clothing and shoelaces, so the kit is just there to preserve our clothing) you are considered to have dropped out of the activity and now you're just camping. Especially when talking about food.
We plan to drive 7 hours north to the Wilderness areas of northern Wisconsin. There we will spend 1 week trying to survive without anything but knives and the clothes on our back (and 50ft of rope for the whole group).
Well, good luck there Deadly. Before you go, if you don't mind, why not conform to our Introduction post? Here's a template for you to use.
http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...ead.php?t=7813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge47
Sarge 47, U.S. Marine here its OORAH! my friend
The way you said it is Army
Sorta off-topic, don't you think? :cool2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeepman
Please read my comments within your text. :cool2:
Some of my friends and I are going "surviving" this summer.[I GO "SURVIVING" EVERY MINUTE OF EVERY DAY! :sneaky2:]
We plan[PLAN?]
to bring a car-load of emergency stuff, some emergency stuff with us where we decide to shelter, and some first aid kits on person at all times. We also plan to have a flashlight, glow stick, whistle, and knife on each person all the time, along with emergency food (beef jerky would probably be best, or trail mix). [DON'T FORGET THOSE ORGAN DONOR CARDS & YOUR LAST WILL & TESTAMENT!]
This is NOT a survival situation[NO CRAP!]
because we aren't at risk of dying in the wilderness.[HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?]
HOWEVER, I think we're conforming to your definition [MY DEFINITION? TRY WEBSTERS!:innocent:]
by way of our golden rule: You can't use any of this sh*t or you lose.[LOSE WHAT?]
It's not a competition, but if you have to use anything besides your on-person first aid (it's assumed that you could have made this kit our of ripped clothing and shoelaces, so the kit is just there to preserve our clothing)[REALLY DUMB! A 1ST AID KIT FOR CLOTHES!]
you are considered to have dropped out of the activity and now you're just camping.[NEW FLASH, ACE! THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE DOING!]
Especially when talking about food. We plan to drive 7 hours north to the Wilderness areas of northern Wisconsin. There we will spend 1 week trying to survive without anything but knives and the clothes on our back [WOW! LIKE THAT'S NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE! EVER HEAR OF TBWN?" :innocent:]
(and 50ft of rope for the whole group).[WELL, IF IT DOESN'T WORK OUT THAT WILL HELP IN DRAGGING THE BODIES OUT!:sneaky2:]
And not even a hint of sarcasm. :innocent: Hi, Sarge! :)
Twice, one I got my truck stuck for two days, and no one could get to me to get it unstuck.Quote:
Originally Posted by owl_girl
The other time I went up into the Cascades to sight in a friend 7mm mag, I tore the oil pan off my car, and had to walk out.
Both times all I had with me was my knife, fire and me wits.
Camping is sitting in one place and enjoying nature.
Back in the 80s 6 of us invented Survivor weekends. We would leave Friday night, and come back Sunday evening.
Each person was allowed two luxury items. We took no firearms. You could not tell the others what your two items where.
You could not take prepared food. Your clothes and boots had to be civilian. Toiletries were considered luxury.
My two items were my mirrored sunglasses and my knife.
This was camping with a twist
Hey Deadly!
Before you get all upset and go on a rampage because Sarge is giving you a hard time, Stop shake it off and think about his statements like your life depended on it. Seriously no joke, Slow down, think about what you said and what he said.
Your post is not new and unique there are many similar posts from people who have watched "survival shows" or not and want to try it. It does sound like fun.
For Example: #1
"because we aren't at risk of dying in the wilderness."[HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?]
Take a good look at this statement and response. This forum likes to post rescue and recover articles from pretty much around the world. We like to learn from both the success and failure (read that as the difference between rescue and recovery). The people in these articles are about both experienced and novice some prepared some not, both have died.
How about this one: #2
"you are considered to have dropped out of the activity and now you're just camping." [NEW FLASH, ACE! THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE DOING!]
Its a matter of semantics. Ya perhaps minimalist camping with the intent of experimenting with "your collection of survival knowledge" we have no idea if you have a clue (no offense), thats fine and dandy.
Being in a survival situation is taking an out of control perhaps life threatening situation and taking as much control as you can with the knowledge and resources you have available.
This one: #3
We plan[PLAN?]
to bring a car-load of emergency stuff, some emergency stuff with us where we decide to shelter, and some first aid kits on person at all times. We also plan to have a.......
Plan Survival camping?????? Surviving???????
I'm glad you are Planing.... But be aware a prepared camping trip has turned to survival for someone in the past.
Go the the "General Survival Discussion" there are sticky threads that have valuable posts. Do a search for living in the wild or surviving long term in the wilderness. Tucked away in these subjects are both harsh criticisms and valuable information.
Search the forum search the forum.
Consider knowing dangerous plants animals for your area. Consider laws pertaining to trespassing, fire building, hunting trapping and fishing if these are part of your survival activities. That way you are aware of any violations you may encounter. Learn about water purification. Remember, If you bring it into the woods take your trash out.
Listen to sarge
Be safe go camping and experiment with survival from knowledge.
I'm done rambling.
So if someone is well prepared, but not camping, and gets themselves into a survival situation then in fact they are not surviving just camping?
So, the only way you are in a survival situation is if you are totally unprepared?
Yo, Dead,
OMG, I LIVE in Wisconsin, got get planning,....... got get planning.........
Hayward is really a suburb of Chicago, judging by how many "Bears Bars" there are.
Anyway have a good time, stay safe, have fun.
In the preceding true story I was very prepared. It was still a "survival situation" which I was able to get myself out of.Quote:
One winter I was traveling by snow machine from Cantwell to Paxton. It's about 120 miles or so. It was about 9am when I left Cantwell. The sun came up to a beautiful Chrystal clear day, the temp was around 0. (First bad sign) Along about noon the wind started to blow. (Second bad sign) I paid it little mind because I was on a brand new Tundra. I had 2 extra cans of gas and plenty of oil. I was dressed in waterproof, insulated snow machining coveralls, -100 sorrel’s, waterproof/insulated gloves, balaclava and helmet so I was in good shape for the cold.
Just before the sun dipped out of sight I decided to stop and top off the gas and oil as well as eat my sandwich and drink some coffee. I stopped on a hill top for a moment and realized the wind was blowing around 30 or 40 mph. (third bad sign) I pulled down into the lee of the hill to have my rest. I was there for about 40 min. When I started out again the wind had increase quite a bit and it was getting difficult to ride against it. After about 2 hours of this it was past dark and I was just about done in. (I was now in a survival situation and the next few decisions I made could mean the difference between me living or dieing)
I pulled into the lee of another hill to rest again. I got out my GPS to see how far I had to go and decided to dig a hole and wait till morning. I put the cover on the snow machine. Extended my avalanche poll and put the orange flag on top of it and stuck in the snow to mark my position. Got out my avalanche shovel and dug in for the night. About 5am I had to go pee. When I crawled out of my hole I noticed the wind had died down. Not a cloud in the sky and extremely cold. It took me a couple tries to get the snow machine started. I pulled into Paxton about 9am. It wasn't until I got there that I found out how cold it was that night. With the wind chill it was off the scale.
Did I mention that I was alone?
I think what "Deadly Toad" is doing is "extreme minimalist camping".
I look at a true survival situation as when you are unexpectedly placed in a situation where you could live or die depending on the preparation you may have made and or the decisions you make.
Not all "survival situations" end with a dramatic rescue or someone cutting their own arm off.