I can see some answers in there, answers about what humans in general might do but very rarely what you personally would do, maybe I was missing something in your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by volwest
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I can see some answers in there, answers about what humans in general might do but very rarely what you personally would do, maybe I was missing something in your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by volwest
Excellent question, Owl Girl. The answer is "NO!". He would be free to go his own way. As a matter of fact, he would have to! The old trite saying goes: "There is no 'I' in the word 'Team'." That's true here as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by owl_girl
However, what if the owner of the knife has no food or water? If he wants to share with the group then everything that everyone has becomes "Community property", including his expensive piece of hardware if it is deemed so! It has to. That's what Vol West is trying to say in his highly articulated manner, and that's what I'm saying even more bluntly! You were also right earlier when you spoke of the "power". I believe that the leader would also have to be accountable to the group and could be replaced if it were warranted. In our modern American society most of has been led to believe that we have to strive for the top positions of what ever field we are working in. If we start at the bottom then we want to work our way up. The problem is that not all of us are qualified to be at the top!:rolleyes: I have worked at many different jobs, and under many different management people. Many were bad, some were alright, and a few were fantastic. Those few I would follow anywhere! A leader would have to be picked by mutual consent of the group, all members if possible. They would also have to keep said leader accountable. Notice I did not mention gender?
This kind of gives all the impression of one's self.
Here goes.
I have always been the loner, don't depend on anyone. That way, you don't get let down. I can function very well in a team, if the team members all have the same common goal, and they take is seriously.
I am an alpha male.
Like wareagle, people give me a wide berth as I am not a friendly looking guy. Well, I'm just not friendly. No tats just the 100 yard stare.
I am known as the guy that gets the job done. So, that is what I would do. You need a ditch, I'll get it made, you need wood, done. You stand over me and try to give me orders with your hands in your pocket, we gonna have a little talk.
I don't play the little horseplay games that some young men play. If I'm going to use my strength, it's serious.
I am also a warrior as volwest and wareagle are. No better, no worse.
If ryaninmaine shows up with his 5 brothers and 5 brothers in law, I will be packing my bags. Too many family members, ya piss one off and the whole clan comes looking for you. Tensions are going to be high and control is paramount.
So, if you wanted me in the group, I'd come in. If you did not, I'd go on my way down the trail.
So let me ask you this, since you just put the truth to what I asked earlier about "Independent types fitting into a team." What do you look for in a good leader:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by FVR
lol sarge the simple statement is to make sure we all can see the deeper meaning in what he had to say with the rest of the message, even if we have to go back and read it again.
I'm an abrupt person and a lazy speaker, just look at most of my posts. Because of that I know the value of taking longer to say what your trying to get across. People listen more when you say more even if you repeat yourself in different words. For one thing it's easier to blow off a single sentence than a page of information.
As for the concepts in simple terms I think your right, but it takes an unusual person to see it straight off.
When it comes to answering questions with answers? The best teachers know that making someone think through and figure out the answer has more value than mindlessly giving the correct answer.
And thanks Volwest, you gave me quite a complement.
JUSTICE
Definition: Justice is defined as the practice of being fair and consistent. A just person gives consideration to each side of a situation and bases rewards or punishments on merit.
Suggestions for Improvement: Be honest with yourself about why you make a particular decision. Avoid favoritism. Try to be fair at all times and treat all things and people in an equal manner.
JUDGMENT
Definition: Judgment is your ability to think about things clearly, calmly, and in an orderly fashion so that you can make good decisions.
Suggestions for Improvement: You can improve your judgment if you avoid making rash decisions. Approach problems with a common sense attitude.
DEPENDABILITY
Definition: Dependability means that you can be relied upon to perform your duties properly. It means that you can be trusted to complete a job. It is the willing and voluntary support of the policies and orders of the chain of command. Dependability also means consistently putting forth your best effort in an attempt to achieve the highest standards of performance.
Suggestions for Improvement: You can increase your dependability by forming the habit of being where you're supposed to be on time, by not making excuses and by carrying out every task to the best of your ability regardless of whether you like it or agree with it.
INITIATIVE
Definition: Initiative is taking action even though you haven't been given orders. It means meeting new and unexpected situations with prompt action. It includes using resourcefulness to get something done without the normal material or methods being available to you.
Suggestions for Improvement: To improve your initiative, work on staying mentally and physically alert. Be aware of things that need to be done and then to do them without having to be told.
DECISIVENESS
Definition: Decisiveness means that you are able to make good decisions without delay. Get all the facts and weight them against each other. By acting calmly and quickly, you should arrive at a sound decision. You announce your decisions in a clear, firm, professional manner.
Suggestions for Improvement: Practice being positive in your actions instead of acting half-heartedly or changing your mind on an issue.
TACT
Definition: Tact means that you can deal with people in a manner that will maintain good relations and avoid problems. It means that you are polite, calm, and firm.
Suggestions for Improvement: Begin to develop your tact by trying to be courteous and cheerful at all times. Treat others as you would like to be treated.
INTEGRITY
Definition: Integrity means that you are honest and truthful in what you say or do. You put honesty, sense of duty, and sound moral principles above all else.
Suggestions for Improvement: Be absolutely honest and truthful at all times. Stand up for what you believe to be right.
ENTHUSIASM
Definition: Enthusiasm is defined as a sincere interest and exuberance in the performance of your duties. If you are enthusiastic, you are optimistic, cheerful, and willing to accept the challenges.
Suggestions for Improvement: Understanding and belief in your mission will add to your enthusiasm for your job. Try to understand why even uninteresting jobs must be done.
BEARING
Definition: Bearing is the way you conduct and carry yourself. Your manner should reflect alertness, competence, confidence, and control.
Suggestions for Improvement: To develop bearing, you should hold yourself to the highest standards of personal conduct. Never be content with meeting only the minimum requirements.
UNSELFISHNESS
Definition: Unselfishness means that you avoid making yourself comfortable at the expense of others. Be considerate of others. Give credit to those who deserve it.
Suggestions for Improvement: Avoid using your position or rank for personal gain, safety, or pleasure at the expensive of others. Be considerate of others.
COURAGE
Definition: Courage is what allows you to remain calm while recognizing fear. Moral courage means having the inner strength to stand up for what is right and to accept blame when something is your fault. Physical courage means that you can continue to function effectively when there is physical danger present.
Suggestions for Improvement: You can begin to control fear by practicing self-discipline and calmness. If you fear doing certain things required in your daily life, force yourself to do them until you can control your reaction.
KNOWLEDGE
Definition: Knowledge is the understanding of a science or art. Knowledge means that you have acquired information and that you understand people. Your knowledge should be broad, and in addition to knowing your job, you should know your unit's policies and keep up with current events.
Suggestions for Improvement: Suggestions for Improvement: Increase your knowledge by remaining alert. Listen, observe, and find out about things you don't understand. Study field manuals and other military literature.
LOYALTY
Definition: Loyalty means that you are devoted to your country, the Corps, and to your seniors, peers, and subordinates. The motto of our Corps is Semper Fidelis!, (Always Faithful). You owe unwavering loyalty up and down the chain of command, to seniors, subordinates, and peers.
Suggestions for Improvement: To improve your loyalty you should show your loyalty by never discussing the problems of the Marine Corps or your unit with outsiders. Never talk about seniors unfavorably in front of your subordinates. Once a decision is made and the order is given to execute it, carry out that order willingly as if it were your own.
ENDURANCE
Definition: Endurance is the mental and physical stamina that is measured by your ability to withstand pain, fatigue, stress, and hardship. For example, enduring pain during a conditioning march in order to improve stamina is crucial in the development of leadership.
Suggestions for Improvement: Develop your endurance by engaging in physical training that will strengthen your body. Finish every task to the best of your ability by forcing yourself to continue when you are physically tired and your mind is sluggish.
This about does it.
I look for me, but better and wiser. Does not have to be older as there are many younger men / woman that are worth their salt.
Since this is not a military style team, ultimately the leader will be chosen. One who tries to take control without agreement, falls short.
Understand, the leader does not need to be an expert in everything. They need to be able to take the information given and make a decission. They must also have the loyalty from those they lead, to the point where if they have to make a difficult decission, against the ideals of sum, they can do it and those will follow.
That’s a really good post FVR.
WOW! You are right, self-declared leaders usually have an over-inflated opinion about themselves and their abilities. The thing is, however, if it's an ideal situation you could probably leave and "no harm, no foul". However what if it was a group on a life raft in the middle of the ocean? You gonna go for a solo swim if you don't like the way things are going? What about in the middle of winter in a blizzard? Cuddling will not be a joke then, and it would probably be a "group cuddle"; I hope no ones "homophobic"! What if some of the group are severely injured? Think outside of your comfort zone. This is part of what Vol West was talking about. There are no easy answers in a survival situation. It can be highly uncomfortable, awful embarrassing, and downright deadly!:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by FVR
Sarge,
Ya ever heard of "shark bait?" LOL. One little push off the raft.........oooops.
Honestly, gonna have to play it by ear, see where I end up in the universe. Hopefully wherever it will be, you'll be there to cook. How's your shoe leather casserole?
I can tell you one thing, you won't find me out on the ocean. I grew up swimming across the Delaware in NJ, use to love to swim.
Then I joined the USMC, don't like to swim much now. I may have mentioned this before, but night ops in the Pacific, miles offshore wearing a diving vest and fins, oh and the Kabar. Scary **** gets old real fast.
No water.
[QUOTE=volwest;4204]Ok "lashing out" was wrong...lol, but i was thinking about our canadians here...not really you./QUOTE]
I get a lot of answers from the things you post volwest, I really do. I thought that for some reason, you not knowing me except for in here, I would tell you a bit about my hunting experience, so there's a reason why I said I would hunt for the group. You called that lashing out. I'm only guessing that I'm the "canadian' here that you're referring to, like being in LA gives you some kind of intellectual or moral superiority? I doubt that.
You referred to the respondents to this thread as "dense mother####ers" and "monkeys" is that not lashing out? Those appear to be pretty direct insults to me.
I've said in previous threads and will say again, that all of the joking aside, I will base my answers as realistically as possible. Someone asked what tasks we would take on, and I offered my answers.
Sir, you seem to grow mightily offended by anyone who doesn't see things from your obviously superior (why yes! that is sarcasm!) point of view.
We don't know each other, but from almost everything that I've seen you post here, all I can say is...I can read the same books. Just to set my poor befuddled inferior Canadian mind at ease, why don't you tell us all one thing you've actually done that qualifies you to sound off the way you do?
[QUOTE=trax;4252]I want to be the hunter.. Trax you cook and clean. J/k. Maybe we can both hunt you go east I 'll go west meet you back at camp at dark. Everyone else be cool keep the fire going and have Vol read to you.... We will be back with surf and turfQuote:
Originally Posted by volwest
Volwest, I'm simply asking about the assumptions you seem to make about people, perhaps it's just the way you communicate your thoughts, but nevertheless....you've again assumed you're pissing me off....nothing you can do or say would ever be important enough to me to get me angry.
You rattled on at length about the great warrior/loner you would be, which I personally have doubts about, but so what? It's just a discussion. I'm in favor of a polite discussion and what I've tried to assert, by responding to the original question, is that groups of people in that situation will put aside petty differences for the common good and thrive, or collapse because of their petty differences (your assertion? yes? no?) I think Ryan's comment about the two of us hunting in different directions adds a little to what I'm trying to get at.
Most groups of people have approached these situations in a variety of ways over years, organizing tasks according to who has the best skill set per task and then dividing that task amongst those individuals is not uncommon.
Ryan, I like your idea.
another unanswered question too, but beyond that. When you insult people volwest, they're going to take it personally, unless they don't have a personality to begin with I suppose. You don't know me well enough for any of your insults to matter, but the distance between you and me is how we're willing to treat people in here. I'm not going to refer to anyone as a monkey or a dense mother####erQuote:
Originally Posted by volwest
Okay, I've deleted the "Zen"story to get to the "Nuts & bolts" here, no puns intended. VW, you hit the nail on the head and I'm highly honored that you would include me in your "group choice." However, as you've also wisely posted in another thread, the things we prepare for are highly unlikely to be the things that we face. What if it were Trax, Ryaninmichigan, his family, etc., and they've no place to go?:confused: What if "packing your bags is not an option? Another old saying is "You can pick your friends, but your stuck with your family." Solo Survival is a piece of cake, IMO, compared to Group Survival. Go back to my unanswered question before; the guy with the $1000 knife's "pride of ownership" might be a problem. Independent thinking , while okay on a solo survival scenario, is not going to work in a group scene. What about the dangers of someone carrying a poison dart around? Duties can be assigned based on experience, after all, it gives the folks in the group something to do to take their mind off of their predicament. A leader has to have everybody's faith, trust, confidence, whatever you want to call it, that they can get the group home okay. Dying to self might be a Christian concept, but it is also a pyscological one.Quote:
Originally Posted by volwest
Is there anything you can actually point to that you've done to back up your bs? If you give me an example, I'll accept it at face value and stop flattering yourself, you don't have the capability to piss me off, this is just idle chatter to me. You also don't seem to have the capability to give a straight answer.
Zen story anyone?
Two monks come to a river that they have to cross. There's a woman, the old monk picks her up and starts to carrry her over, the river carries away all three of them and drowns them. So what?
There are people in my life that I am willing to die for, this life right here right now, nothing figurative about it.
Oh yeah....and all the crap you've been spouting is available in books. I've read some of the stuff you've paraphrased in other postings.
okay kids maybe i'm alittle late to the chit chat, and while i do not mind a good discussion(me and owl girl and the moose) i think this has gooten off the grid here. we are tring to learn and share, if i was walking thru the woods and heard this exchange coming from the fire i would just keep going on my meery way. as sarge eluded to earlier about being a loner, so am i, most ppl i do not give the time of day to. i have never been on any type of forum up until now, and i go thru my day now wondering what my wolfpack is up to.(sarge,trax owlgirl,volwest) the rest of you i am getting to know slowly ya'll just need to post more.
Got so wrapped up in the pissing contest, I forgot what the post was about...
The problem with a head-butting contest is that the biggest butt-head usually wins.:rolleyes: However, all that to the side, maybe Wareagle can answer some of the questions I've raised since I've received very little response to them. Hmmm, maybe I should take a page out of Vol West's book as he seems to draw more response....:D BTW, if we're having a urinating contest please fill re-sealable bottles so we can try to sell them to Bear Grylls...I hear he loves the stuff!;)
original post was about bugging out (b/o) and the diffuculties of day to day survival the link was pretty much an eye opener for me, i have always said thet ppl find the idea of living off the land a romantic notion where in reality it is to me one of the most diffucult undertakings,now i do not posses the verbal prose that some authors do so i suggest linking on to it. dohny h was able to load it see see his post on the third page.
ps sorry sarge to label you as the loner i meant fvr
And sometimes I am! I totally agree with what you said about living off of the land! it's not going to be as cool as les & Bear make it look while we relax in our air-conditioned living rooms drinking our beverage of choice from well-stocked pantries. The reality for me is that I probably won't be involved in the extreme end of survival, but more along the lines of a "natural disaster" scenario, but who knows.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by wareagle69
well i started looking at new properties today something a little further out than i am which is a little out there (literally and figuratively) something with at least 25 acres, i think that after all these yrs of planning to bug out, that i do not think it would be feasible hense my thread on a must read, so i am going to build a secret bunker on my new property and hopefully will be able to fare much better than b/o
The leadership requirements I posted are simply the USMC's 14 leadership traits.
I simply posted my traits as truthfully as possible, pro and con. Unfortunately, I have been a loner most of my life for a variety of reasons that don't really mean a hill of beans to ya'll.
Even in the USMC, when I thought something was not right, I voiced my concerns and had to make my own personal decision. These were sometimes good and yes, sometimes bad. I always stood tall and took what was coming to me, no complaints.
Sorry, I am not a sheep.
I have seen how this thread actually, the persoanality problems, how they affect the board and in reality, these are the same problems that a group of individuals would have if they "bugged out."
I see alot of ego's, mine included. I see how some interprit the statements made, how some take those statements to heart. I have noticed that some have thicker skins, some can take critism, and some joke.
Volwest is very well read, well his hobbies are psychology. Duhhhh. I do enjoy his threads as they do make you think where Sarge just asks really good but hard questions.
Totally enjoyable.
[QUOTE=FVR;4302]The leadership requirements I posted are simply the USMC's 14 leadership traits.
I simply posted my traits as truthfully as possible, pro and con. Unfortunately, I have been a loner most of my life for a variety of reasons that don't really mean a hill of beans to ya'll.
nothing unfortunate about it, if your right with it. i remember being 4 yrs old sitting in the sandbox all by myself looking around and saying this is the way it's always going to be. now it had guys that i cuold relate to in the rangers but i am still always alone even in a crowd. i have my wife and she is all that i need.
Exactly.
My wife and kids.
Acquaintances yes, put your life in their hands, not.
It is said that if you go through life and manage to have one "true" friend, you're lucky.
I've had that friend, once.
my wife is my only true friend thats why i am with her, she is the only person that i am glad to see, not much in common with most folks i guess which i why i enjoy coming here can at least talk tactics with some folks here, wonder if any of us would get along in real life though
I think that we could get along if we put all our cards on the table. If the fundamental idea's were the same and we respected each others place in the universe and accepted that, yeh.
I'm responding to several of you at once here. Yes, I do ask the hard questions. Like some of you, I was "alone" when growing up, though not by choice. I'm different, always have been, guess I always will be. I like people, however, & don't mind it when they disagree with me as long as they're honest and not condensending; you see, I want friends, not clones. I only ask for your respect, but weather you give it or not you'll always get mine, the amount depends on you. I feel sort of at home here as it's become pretty obvious that this group is like me, misfits in the world. Oh maybe not 24/7, but a lot of times. The world would look on people like us as "nut-balls", preparing for all that could happen. 2 1/2 years ago a semi crashed into the bus I was driving and all I got out of it were a few bruises and a whole bunch of tiny pieces of broken glass shoved into every uncovered open orifice exposed. It made me realize that I could be dead any time. Once that happens you get a whole new perspective on life. Death has surrounded me. My cousin who joined the Marines in '65 and went through a hell called Viet-Nam died 5 years ago as a result of drug & alcohol abuse. My wife's sister was brutally murdered by her soon-to-be-ex-husband in a horrible fashion. My middle brother's oldest child, his daughter, was killed in a bad traffic accident 6 weeks before her 18th birthday. And two months ago one of my best friends only about a year older than me who'd been the older brother I never had died of bone cancer. Go ahead and be yourselves. It's the one freedom nobody can take away from you, and if I don't like some of it, so what? At least I'm alive to read it. The question I have now is how can one conform in a group of non-conformists, isn't that a contradiction in
terms?
I’m sorry to hear about all that. I cant say I’ve had a lot of people close to me die but people around here do keep killing themselves so that dos make it hard to fined friends.:(Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge47
About your question, I don’t know. Would you really want to conform to nonconformist?
Great thread, folks.
I wouldn't choose to lead a group. I'd rather have someone else lead; take responsibility for the lives of those in the group. The only way I'd lead is if I were asked to lead and then only until they found someone else more suitable. I could see, maybe, leading at first until the group were stable, until the group was in a safer location and providing for themselves. After that I can't see where I'd be valuable as their leader.
I would not stay with a group that had a leader who I believed would get us killed. Adios. I'd slip out and wouldn't look back. On the other hand if the group's leader was competent and they were doing the right things to stay alive and safe I'd participate in whatever capacity was useful.
While I wouldn't want to lead the whole group I wouldn't be opposed to taking charge of certain tasks that needed doing. I do have a fair amount of knowledge about survival so I would suggest options to the leader or group. They could take or leave my suggestions as they saw fit. Again, if they're screwing up then I'm out of there. I'm not talking about something unimportant like how they start the camp fire (lighter or matches vs flint and steel) but if they're making big mistakes that could lead to our deaths and they wouldn't consider a suggestion I believe is important (like posting someone to guard the camp at night) then I'd slip out and not look back.
About fitting into a group: I work in a small print shop. The group is tight-knit. When I first got there I was a machine operator and to me, they were a bunch of aliens that didn't make any sense to me. I'm an introvert. Think Jimmy Paige vs Eddie Van Halen. (sp?) When I first got there I didn't even consider the importance of group dynamics or fitting in. As a result I was the sandpaper, causing friction. I didn't look for confrontations with them but I didn't go out of my way to avoid them, either. I figured that if they left me the hell alone we'd get along just fine. (Does that sound familiar to anyone here?)
So, eventually I learned enough about the business that I was given a lead position. Now instead of a piece of sandpaper I was a frigging grinder. lol. At that point I saw the importance of becoming a part of the group but didn't know how to go about accomplishing that. (I'm not the type to back down and let everyone walk on me. Just wouldn't ever happen; I'd rather die.)
Thankfully, my boss sent me off to management classes. Those classes were basically classes having a lot to do with psychology. I learned things about other people that made it much easier to deal with the people I work with. For instance, I learned that one of the older people I worked with is from a generation where the saying went, "If it's worth doing it's worth doing right." I learned that when I had something with loose tolerances that needed to be done fast he was not the man to go to with that. On the other hand if I had something with tight tolerances that needed to be done exactly right, he was the man for the job. I got along with him quite well once I learned that. Eventually I learned enough to get along with all of them.
Because I applied what I learned in those classes they promoted me again and now I'm a supervisor, making the majority of decisions in the shop. My boss is the one who is a liaison between the shop and sales/owners/CEO. I do enjoy it and I'm able to get along with them now. I'm still a loner at heart but I can adapt to and work within a group.
I found Volwest's posts interesting because I find psychology interesting and perhaps even vital after TSHTF. I saw that people asked what role Volwest saw himself in within a group. And I saw his answer. However, in the right circumstance I could easily see him as being the power behind the thrown; him making decisions for the group and having his words come out of the leader's mouth. LOL.
All I can say on this is that if you can't blend into a group then you're going to be on your own after TSHTF. On your own your chances of survival, in most cases, is limited. A group has a better chance of surviving than an individual, in general. (Always exceptions to this, of course.)
Great post Mangyhyena, however we're not talking about electing the President of the United States, but picking the right person to get everybody out as safely as possible. In a "perfect" situation you might be able to break off from the group but what if you can't?:eek: Remember where I wrote that the leader has to remain accountable to the group? If the group feels that the leader is not the right person to get them out then they need to replace him. And right now I'm vizulizing Vol West's words coming out of Trax's mouth, pretty funny!:D
Hmmm. A situation where you couldn't leave could turn bad. As in your example of drifting in a life raft in the middle of the ocean. What if they were going to vote on who is going to become tomorrow night's dinner and you're the least popular person? Still going to try to get along with them? Or perhaps they decide that you don't need to eat as much as they do, or they decide you're not going to be drinking any of their fresh water. Perhaps they just want to take out their frustrations on you to relieve the boredom and maintain group cohesion at your expense. Are you going to take a beating or two, or worse, for the good of the group or are you going to put the hurting on whoever considers himself/herself the dominant leader?
However, two different situations have been covered here; short-term BO to a safer location and longer-term, stuck-in-a-life raft-with-nowhere-to-go where you can't leave. Both require different types of leadership with different skills. And both may require different choices about going it alone or blending into the group.
In a short-term situation then I'd say the choice of leader would not be an election. Someone would simply emerge as the one the others listened to. I know I'd be moving my family to safety and if anyone wanted to tag along then that would be fine. If they wanted to become leaders I'd leave them to it with a good-luck wish. Either way I wouldn't allow someone else to dictate my actions in that situation as I'm capable of leading my family to safety.
If in a situation where a group has decided to take your supplies and make decisions about where you're going then I'd say it's time for drastic measures to protect yourself and your family. Even if they will let you leave sans your supplies you've still got decisions to make. A night of blood could be in order at that point. Or perhaps you might decide to go ahead and leave without your supplies.
Just pointing out that surviving in a group isn't always the best option. I realize that fear is behind a few of these scenarios. Fear is a perfectly fine emotion when it's called for. I wouldn't approach the situation from a place of fear but if the situation proved to be one to rightly fear then I'd act accordingly. Being an "outsider" could easily prove to be dangerous in a group, especially if the situation were extremely bad. People do things they normally wouldn't do in society when survival is at stake. They make choices they wouldn't normally make.
Great Post Ryan, however you might remember waaay back I said the group that would be the model is this group.:rolleyes: Do you really think they would make those kind of decisions that would endanger you? I may be a bit naive, but I don't think so.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by mangyhyena
Quote:
Originally Posted by volwest
No one tricks everyone. There are some out there that see through this. I am one of them. you can ber a pleasent as pie but if you don't know what you are talking about I am not listening.
I've known individuals almost exactly like what you're describing here volwest, and like the character you mentioned in the other thread, I know one who continually chooses to ignore his own ability and refuses to have leadership "thrust upon him" for want of a better phrase. More's the pity from my point of view because he seems to have all the other positive traits that people in here have basically suggested a leader should have. The man is very much a loner.Quote:
Originally Posted by volwest
I have a good friend (different guy than the one I just mentioned)who is very much...well not a leader but say a spiritual role model to a lot of people around him. The other day I asked him if he gives much thought to how much influence he has, or can have on some people's lives. The conversation went like this:
him: "I try not to"
me: "think about it?"
him: "influence them."
Would I be out of line here to say that a leader NEEDS to be a loner? Able to do what needs to be done, to intruct and teach each of the members without being a friend,because if he/she befriends one or a few of the group ,but not everyone in the group then he/she sets himself up to be accused of favoritism even though the jobs he gives to his friends may be the jobs they are best suited for even if they are the easiest jobs which need to be done.If he doesnt make friends,or enemies within the group then there is a lot less chance of this being an issue, still going to ruffle some feathers here and there,because there is always going to be some who do not want to be told what to do.
Being the leader would indeed be a lonely job.
volwest.
i have already looked into the cotaiiners about 3 to 5 grand up here but i do like the idea every one around here uses them for storage on their property
Maybe I'm wrong, but my sense has been that the people around the individuals that volwest was describing wanted leadership, again just my personal observation. Also, I think the important part of volwest's message was "it is not the gift ....but how the gift is used"Quote:
Originally Posted by ryaninmichigan
In that I just mean, volwest's description might seem like "leaders" are by nature very manipulative and that is not always the case (although it often is, I have no doubt)
I understand. I guess I have always been the tyoe of person do move into the role because no one else will. Sometimes you have to lead purely because no one else will. I don't care much for slick talkers I see the BS and it makes me sick when I see sheepel following alongQuote:
Originally Posted by trax
i am the master of my destiny. bottom line. I understand where you are going. I am not one of them. I make my own money and awnser to no one other then me.... so sheep elephants not me. you read to much,,,
you think far to much of your self youngster.