Fort Hopeak: Notice the fort sits on a hill by a river. Old style fort that works well trees cut back 200 yards, wall is made of stone, houses 50 people and has warehouses for goods storage. :D
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4...peakbf0.th.png
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Fort Hopeak: Notice the fort sits on a hill by a river. Old style fort that works well trees cut back 200 yards, wall is made of stone, houses 50 people and has warehouses for goods storage. :D
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4...peakbf0.th.png
Remy's point is a good one, if you want to look at how to defend your position, study all the ways to attack a position. (Hey is that Sun Tzu sitting in the corner?)
WarEagle...you have tunnels? Because if you don't..I spent 12 years mining, I know how to make really good ones if I have the right materials.
I still say it all depends on what type of dwelling your defending, and tunnels can be breached from more tunnels.
Tunnels through bedrock aren't going to get breached anytime soon
And you arn't gonna dig it all that fast, if you can dig it it can be breeched, breaching is easier than digging the tunnel.
If no one knows they exist other than those who live there,then pretty much no need to worry about if they will be breached.
Finding out is the scouts part, a good scout would do just that, scout the area and find them, now breaching them would be the biggest problem and like Trax said in bedrock you are gonna waste a lot of time and energy trying to do this, but it could be done although the risks do not out weigh the gain if it means losing your people. That and you need someone like Trax to do it. So in the end knowing they have tunnels doesn't mean you can breach them or its workable.
I think WE hired a bunch of Vietnamese to dig his tunnels. He wanted only the best. Sorry, Trax.
Or Pygmies :D
Beo..Twink...pay attention. I'm only going to run you through this one time...I asked if he already had the tunnels, because if he doesn't, I can put them in. You don't dig tunnels through bedrock, for one the Flintstones and the Rubbles will want to see your digging permit, for two, shovels will bounce of bedrock for years and years and years. Earth tunnels collapse, bedrock tunnels are about the safest place you can be once they're done. It would take probably several weeks to put them in. Drill (how many holes depends on how big you want the tunnel), blast (there's the fun part!), clean out, scale loose rock,(that's prying down rock that's going to fall because it cracked before it falls on its own) bolt back(bolts from 7 to 12 feet long, support the rock overhead). Repeat. Occasionally timber up for added security as you move along. Once your tunnels there, it's pretty much there forever. Someone going to go to the work to run another tunnel to breach that? You can pick 'em off while you're getting started. I'm just not sure how far it is to bedrock where WE lives, that and getting the materials are the only real considerations.
The pygmies can breech anything.
Ah yes. But the pygmies are loyal to Free Traxistan, God bless 'em.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beowulf65
I don't know much 'bout that there tunnelin' and such but if'n it were me I'd prob'ly go with a glue bolt and bearing plate using the traditional dead weight loading design. To determine the proper bolt length, I'd use Lb = (Is/13) (log10 H) ((100-CMRR)/100)1.5 where Is is the tunnel span.
I actually carried a minor in mining.:D
I'd just contact a mining supply company and get what I needed from them. I never did any of my mining in college, but us Canuckistanians do have a reputation for being the best in the world at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Never spent any time in Viet Nam or on Iwo Jima did ya?
Those were dirt tunnels lined with timber Rick, easily sabatoured, ya just had to have the guts to go down there.
Nope, never did, but I know about the tunnels. Mine are better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
The tunnel system, built over 25 years starting in the 1940s, let the Viet Minh and, later, the Viet Cong, control a huge rural area. It was an underground city with living areas, kitchens, storage, weapons factories, field hospitals, command centres. In places, it was several stories deep and housed up to 10,000 people who virtually lived underground for years.... getting married, giving birth, going to school. They only came out at night to furtively tend their crops.
The ground here is hard clay, which made this whole thing possible. But even so, the planning and construction was incredible. People dug all this with hand tools, filling reed baskets and dumping the dirt into bomb craters. They installed large vents so they could hear approaching helicopters, smaller vents for air and baffled vents to dissipate cooking smoke. There were also hidden trap doors and gruesomely effective bamboo-stake booby traps.
Of course, the U.S. military knew about the tunnels. The tunnels not only allowed guerrilla communication, they allowed surprise attacks, even within the perimeters of U.S. military bases. The U.S. retaliated with bombs, eventually turning the region into what writers Tom Mangold and John Penycate called "the most bombed, shelled, gassed, defoliated and generally devastated area in the history of warfare."
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One well placed satchel charge could collapse the thing.
Well, not that last sentence. The tunnels were never defeated by the French or Americans. Small sections were destroyed but very small in comparison to the overall network.
The satchel charges we used in Desert Storm were nothing more than a brick of C-4 in a satchel and pulled the cap and threw it in the tunnel, these were deep dug heavy tunnels and the bast was enough with the concussion to drop concrete walls and earthnen walls for at least a quarter mile, I don't know what the Vietnam soldier used, really don't but I think these would've worked as well there as in Desert Storm.
Of course we now have bunker busters too.
Or I could be wrong.
There's the material being blasted. Timber is more difficult to blow up than rock is, the timber is more porous and absorbs the blast. Concrete can be easier to blow up than clay because it's brittle and the concussion is a direct hit whereas the clay absorbs the concussion. Sand just collapses because that's sand for ya. The harder rock is the better it breaks when you blast. A packed charge will have better effect than a charge that's just tossed in, other variables being equalled (ie type and amount of explosive) but of course in the situations that Beo described, you probably don't have a lot of time to be setting really nice charges. It's like when you watch one of those building demolitions and they make the building implode, the charges are set so that the blast goes down, and with enough force that it creates a huge enough vacuum that the structural integrity of the building can't withstand the vacuum and the building is literally sucked down behind the blast. I've always wanted to try that, just, you know, to see if I could get it right. Funny, no one's asking me to go ahead
If a nuke drops on your head you're dead. Only the gov has got bunkers that can take a nuke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proud American
But a bunker can protect you from things like radioactive fallout.
here in the nickel mining capital of the world we have tons on old shafts 4000 to 6000 ft down we can withstand a nuke, as for repelling any attack i just tell nell they are going after trax and watch the desruction.
how did this get from a bait attack a faux sherriff or a couple of thugs to people droping semtex into my bunker seriuosly.
i have a bunker cuz for me it's fun bottom line it ain't about the end of the world or such things it's about being prepared. IF and i say if in a shtf scenario someone walks the hour and a half to my place they might be a little determined, so i fall back let them take the stuff i leave as a decoy and me and mine are safe, that is how i think if you don't like it then go pound salt, to call me crazy or wrong means you can't open your mind enough to see all the possibilities, i do not preach to people about anything here other than to be prepared, whatever that means to you... to me it means a bunker for safe storage, i hope i never have to use it but
this reminds me of when i joined the army oct 87 how long had it been since we had a conflict and don't count operation live fire in grenada where even the cooks got a cib because he heard gunfire, i took my training very seriously and was rideculed for that then how many conflicts since dec 89 have we been in? how many dead? every one said it wouldn't happen, but what if it does. whats it to you if i prepare have i wasted any thing other thsn my time? how does this affect you? so all i can say is bugger off.
well all i can say is bugger off and what?
sing along if ya know the words
always be prepared....
Yep Yep, I was thinking your part of the PreCambrian shield. I could do ya some serious tunnels man, problem with old mine shafts is they flood.
ya thats whats great about being a plumber i can fix that
Thanks WE,I must be one mean little badazz,eh? LMAO!!!!:DQuote:
Originally Posted by wareagle69
You pay the Twinkienator 100 twinkies per hour to watch over it, No one would dare try and go near it
Tony, I think we just have to tell him that his Twinkie stash is being threatened and then unleash him :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Tony uk
Cheap jokes. Real cheap. No Super Moderator respect shown around here, that's for sure.
Well that's just silly, everyone respects Sarge :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Rick,you knew the job was dangerous when you took, it,or you could have asked Sarge,he would have 'splained it to you:D
What about a prefab tunnel system. Could you use concrete pipe for the path ways and conex containers for rooms? I mean some of you own back hoes so it seems possible. You could just sod over the cuts to hide them until the grass and brush grew back.
I don't claim any training in building tunnels. So I am genuinely curious.
Sam - That's an interesting thought. Our county courthouse is well over 100 years old so the county decided to build a new one across the street. They also spent several million to redo the old courthouse and did exactly what you suggested. They installed a prefab concrete tunnel to connect the two underground. It's been a couple of years but it seems like the tunnel sections were around 12' wide by 10' high. Each section was about 20' or 25' in length. I didn't watch the construction so I don't know what they did to keep moisture from infiltrating the seams or if any additional supports were added for roof load, which would be a concern on square or rectangular concrete but it could certainly be done.
You could use 8' road culverts and weld the ends together which would support well because of the round shape and be a whole lot cheaper.
One of the facilities at the last military base I was stationed on had to be built under ground. It was done with the pre-fab sections. The facility is fairly deep and this was in SE Georgia. Ground water was a real problem - hit water after a few feet. Solution - liquid nitrogen. Lots and lots of liquid nitrogen (22 tankers if I remember right).
If you fill the facility with liquid nitrogen then......:D
I have a friend in Kentucky who did that, he dug out his land (about 150 ft. from the house) and sunk the conex/sea land containers in it at certain areas and then placed those big heavy round concrete sewer tunnels in a sort of highway/hallway connecting them all there about 8 feet high and 10 feet wide or close to that, and once done he covered the whole thing over with the dirt he had removed, their about 6 feet below the surface from the conex top and he even ran an air vent at each conex, he has food storage in one, goods and supplies in another, ammo and weapons in another, and living quarters in the last one, a generator to power the drop lights he has running through the whole thing. Not the deepest thing in the world but no one knows its there (except for you guys now) and it'll supply him for a good long time. He has railroad ties as steps leading down to it, don't ask me where he got the materials I have no clue. Once done he planted Ky. Bluegrass over the whole thing along with crab grass and ivy to climb out to the trees. There's a creek about a quarter mile away so he's thinking he's good if he needs to go undergound in an emergency. Once inside he sealed it W.E.T.'sQuote:
Originally Posted by Sam
1050 Conseal Primer and then 1000 CONSEAL a concrete sealer to keep moisture out.
Maybe Sam ain't to far off.
Beo,
Sam - If you used metal corrugated steel pipe and finish the outside with shotcrete I think it would be both watertight and pretty darn tough. You can get the pipe in round and oblong design. I think they call the oblong pipe-arch or something like that. I would think you could have a removable walkway down the center of either one and place any electrical or other service piping below the walkway. It would be out of the way and yet serviceable.
I've seen these systems before, I just did not know how feasible they would be for joe public. The ones I have seen were government spots, and they can afford the cost/labor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
It depends on the ground underneath you, most places you can dig the soil that deep, but if you hit the rock I was talking about, you're going to be blasting anyway. But I think it's a great idea Sam, if a person has decided to go that way.