What are you talking about ?????Quote:
Originally Posted by nell67
What sugar, Where ?
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What are you talking about ?????Quote:
Originally Posted by nell67
What sugar, Where ?
Oh God,it's too late!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony uk
Tony's off his meds again! Also he's coom out o' the closet! I shoulda known there was something phony about Tony when I saw his Kilt was the only one trimmed in lace!:rolleyes:
AHHHH The Nukes Have Been Launched, There Gonna Fry My Sorry A**Quote:
Originally Posted by nell67
Now THATS funny!!! Nice one Sarge!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge47
Erm *Thinks of wicked comeback* .................... *5 Hours later*Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge47
Your a cheese
Quote:
Originally Posted by kid
Specifically in answer to your firearm question: A reliable and reasonable weapon for defense against a grizzly bear would be a 12 gauge slide action shotgun loaded with slugs. I've always preferred the slide action over a semi-auto for a pack gun as they are generally less tempermental. A short barreled shotgun with an aluminum receiver - such as an Ithaca Featherlight, is a fairly low weight weapon. As to pistols, a 44 Rem Magnum is roughly on par with a 30-30 Winchester, and is not a caliber I would care to rely on when facing a Grizzly. Unless you are a good pistol shot and like shooting something like a 454 Casull magnum - more than I do - I'd stick with a 12 gauge slide action shotgun. To be of any use in case of bear attack - your gun needs to be immediatley accessible - which generally requires some training or long term hunting skills.
I have hunted an still hunt Alaska where the question is not will I see bear
but how many. I carry a custom .454 with 4.5 barrel and a mod 70 Winchester
.458. The .454 will put one down for keeps. And yes I know this first hand.
If I was only backing and not hunting I would only carry the .454. By the
way bear spray only ads seasoning for the bear.:D
Carefull, traderran. This trail cuts across Yellowstone National Park and other BLM land. While the BLM recognizes state law on weapons, the National Park Service does not (for now). While your experience may be fine for Alaska it is not okay to tote, concealed or otherwise) on National Park land.
"Neither hunting nor firearms are allowed in Yellowstone's backcountry."
Source: http://www.nps.gov/yell/planyourvisi...ntryhiking.htm
Listen To What Rick Is Saying About Firearms On Blm And National Park Land, It Is All True.
the only good i can see a gun being in a bear attack situation is to shoot your buddy in the leg so you can out run him. not to mention all of the laws broken as previosly mentioned by carring one in the park. concealed for self defense against other humans is about the only reason i could see for carring one in a state park, and it is still illegal to do so.
Not in Indiana. You can carry concealed in state parks and on BLM land. The only place you can not carry is Corps of Engineers property.
If legal to carry in that location, I'd pack a Smith and Wesson .357 Airlight revolver in a Wilderness tactical holster. Discreet and deadly combination for man or bear.
If it's illegal then don't do it.
If you don't know how to operate it or carry it safely then don't do it.
People haven't always had guns in bear country. You can survive without one. If you know what you're doing and can carry one legally then I'm all for it. I'll support you 100%. But are you going to tuck it away in your pack? Won't that defeat the purpose of readiness?
I've always guessed it's that way because the poor COE boys don't get to carry guns themselves. Just a thought from a fellow parkie...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Will it work? I've had a TASER deployed on me in training, and I've deployed one against two other people. It worked, but I don't think it would work on a bear. They don't seem to work as we'd hope on dogs, and I recall seeing a TASER video demonstrating the "Animal TASER." Basically the dude drops a bull with one. Cool vid. Look it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony uk
He's right. Ironically, just because you might could carry the gun lawfully it could still be illegal to use it against the wildlife in the protected habitat that you were encroaching upon or simply for discharging the weapon in the park.Quote:
Originally Posted by awfoxden
If you shot a bear that was about to bite you I wouldn't arrest you unless (a) officer discretion was yanked from me by an upper echelon or (b) you did something stupid like tried to turn the cub den into a petting zoo and mom decided to suggest that wasn't a good idea.
I'm sure you know there are packs/buttpacks designed for conceal carry. I think the down side of not carrying concealed in a park is you risk being reported by "concerned" park goers. Don't advertise and you won't get bothered or cause some Ranger to respond to an unnecessary call.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkansas Ranger
I personally don't want to be dead or a part of the food chain (despite the "odds") so I (like James Madison) believe that it is my right to defend my life with a firearm. In that spirit, I've been trying to find that perfect lightweight backpacking defense gun also, but it's not easy. I've settled on a .40 cal polymer pistol with double action fire capability and no safety(or maybe a backstrap/trigger safety) and ideally a decocker for hammer down open carry. A double action trigger allows you to try to fire a second time if the round doesn't fire. I know what your thinking...why not a large caliber revolver like a Ruger .454 Casull? Had one, and it was like carrying around a cinder block. Much too heavy, and with one shot (deer hunting 3 years ago), I managed SIGNIFICANT hearing loss in my left ear, not to mention CONSTANT ringing (aka Tinitus).:( A revolver is a more dependable gun, but 5 or 6 shots is not enough in my opinion. If you are defending yourself from a large animal, you want to throw a lot of lead quickly, and I'm sure your shots won't be well placed. Most state parks in WI will let you possess a gun if it is unloaded and cased. A revolver is just to slow to load in an emergency, but a pistol is pretty damn quick. Slap in a mag, rack and shoot. I also like to attach a light to the light rail and sleep with it "ready to roll" incase something goes BUMP in the night. I've done some penetration testing with .40 cal FMJ ammo, and I'm pretty satisfied that it would penetrate the skull of a bear at 50 ft. The .40 also gives you about 10-12 shots which is better than a revolver. (Technically, my penetration testing for the 9mm FMJ round out performed my .40 and .45 test, and you get 15 to 17 shots) The ballistics of a .40 cal are similar to a .357 at 100 yards, and perform like a HOT and heavier 9mm round. My use of a pistol would also be a last resort as the beast is attacking me. (Shoot when you can see the whites of their eyes :eek:) I like to "open carry" while hiking/backpacking so I chose locations (ie. non-state parks) that allow me to exercise this right.
P.s. I had a buddy who chased a bear out of camp in Canada (entered a tent in the middle of the night) with firecrackers, so you might want to add those to your backpack too. ;)
kx250 - You might want to re-think how quickly you can load a wheel gun. I have no doubt I can load my .32 or .38 and fire before you can load your automatic and fire. I use speed loaders, of course. Once I snap the cylinder closed it's ready. Once you load the clip you still have to cycle a round. By then I've fired. Just a thought.
You might want to take a look at this thread. I just went through the same process and yesterday settled on the Springfield XD .45 Service Model in 4".
http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...ead.php?t=2678
Just for fun, how about a 6 shot wheel gun, a reload and six more shots in 2.9 seconds?
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/21940/..._shooter_ever/
Semi slower to reload? I don't think so. I can push a button, drop the empty mag and reload push down another and fire before the empty hits the ground. In the good ole USA I don't see me going thru a full mag but in a semi controlled situation you don't empty your mag. Fire what you must, if a chance drop the mag before empty and reload. Remember just in case you have a live round in the tube if it's needed. If you empty a mag semis lock the slide open. Drop the empty, reload, hit the slide close, it picks up a round from the new mag and fire. I don't have to drop my pistol down to reload nor get off target, takes a little practice and has to be automatic. I own several wheel guns, a few SA and it took a lot of use to convince myself to change. A quality semi of mine I trust. I can beat a speed loader easily, especially against the average person. I ain't the fastest I've ever shot with but I can change mags and aimed fire before you can drop, dump, reload, raise the revolver and find your front sight. I have carried and practiced with handguns over 50yrs, only have a Win Defender 12ga, Marlin 30-30 for coyotes, and a Ruger 10-22, plus a 50cal front loader, gave everything else to my son years ago. I kinda put myself on automatic and it works for me, guess that's what counts. I use handguns a lot, every type has their use. Just don't "limp wrist" a semi and use the right ammo.
as a person living and working in bear country I agree with the posters advocating
bear (or pepper) spray.
8 ounces af spray can on the belt is much less weight than 7pounds of rifle.
Yeah, but for an additional 6.5 lbs, I get a lot more functionality. So soddy GI, but rifle trump spray every time in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stony
Is it against the law to carry both?;)
I love my Ruger GP-100 .357, and I'm very accurate with it, but even if I could load it fast (with practice), it is still too heavy for serious hiking in my opinion. :( I've looked into the S&W Airweight models, and I know the .38 is very light from holding it. I'd like to hold the .357 Airweight model sometime, but I still think (for my needs) the polymer pistol is a better solution.
Of all the folks who defended themselves from bears. Most of those who use a gun get mauled after shooting the bear. No of them that used Pepperspray are mauled after using it. For a shot to stop a bear it must be instantly fatal (almost impossible on a moving target). All pepperspray has to do is hit them in the face and the attack is over. I have defended myself 3 time with pepperspray once from one side of my ATV with the bear on the other side. She was in full charge. The spray stopped her dead in her tracks and turned her around. She was gone in a flash. Dont forget that most bears only become a threat when they are to close to use a long gun and at that range unless you hit them in the brain or spine a handgun is only going to enrage them more. If you think you are good enough to shoot one dead with the first shot try a little experiment. Have someone throw a softball (which is slightly larger than a bears brain) at you. You draw your handgun or lift your rifle and hit it with the first shot. In my observations most bears are shot during a false charge which wounds them and makes them mad. If they do runaway after being shot now you are obligated to track it down and put it out of its suffering. I've tracked a wounded bear. It's terrorfying. I'm not telling you this stuff to discourage you or start an arguement, only to inform and educate. It's better to know how to avoid bears then thinking you can kill one if you have an encounter.
Don't worry about starting an argument (we can do that easily enough). I want to hear the nuts and bolts from those that have "been there, done that, got the T-shirt". Last November I went hiking in the Smokies. Since I haven't dealt with bears, I did quite a bit of research on the what to and not to do's. I had a hand gun, but also opted for the bear spray (which would have been my choice if needed). So klkak, Hopeak and others - keep it up because I believe you guys "got the T-shirt".
Study shows bear spray effective
The Associated Press
Published: April 20th, 2008 02:32 PM
Last Modified: April 20th, 2008 02:41 PM
A study concludes that bear spray works a great majority of the time in warding off bear attacks.
Biologist Tom Smith and others have published a paper of their research in "The Journal of Wildlife Management."
The study says bear spray is effective 98 percent of the time.
The researchers looked at 83 cases where bear spray was used and found that none of the incidents involved any serious injuries. The red-pepper spray causes painfully swollen eyes and nasal passages on its targets.
Smith spent years working in Alaska as a bear biologist for the U.S. Geological Survey.
He is now a professor of wildlife science at Brigham Young University.
In the report, Smith noted the risk for injury is greater with firearms, the other main means of self-protection. Wounded bears sometimes turn on people.
Johnny McCoy, a Baptist minister and former North Pole mayor, had his ear ripped off in 2001 by a grizzly bear that attacked moose-hunting partner Gary Corle. Corle shot at the bear with his rifle, but missed. The bear then turned on McCoy, who needed surgery to reattach his ear and close large gashes in his forehead, arms and hands.
Bear spray has been used in Alaska for more than two decades. No similar attacks against those using spray in self-defense have been reported.
"Bear spray represents an effective alternative to lethal force," the researchers wrote.
But bear spray also has its limits. Smith notes there have been problems with the spray in the wind, although its biggest drawback may be the one-shot limit.
Smith reported that in "7 percent of bear spray incidents, wind was reported to have interfered with spray accuracy, although it reached bears in every case
Thanks Crashdive. I just found the previous artical.
And of course, if the little experiment fails...which I'm betting it will, you're going to have to find someone else to throw the second softball aren't you? Good comparison though klkak.Quote:
Originally Posted by klkak
I was thinking the same thing. Just didn't want to say it. I read that and thought, "Hey, I ain't throwing that ball."
I'd rather have a couple bullets in reserve than shoot your load once and have the wind carry it away. What are you gonna do then? Crap you pants? Besides, I humbly suggest this: The only reason that it was effective 98% of the time, and there were "No similar attacks against those using spray in self-defense have been reported." is because after they maced the p!ssed off bear and made it even madder the bear decided to have a nice lunch. Capsaicin flavored even.
:D:D:D
Seriously though, the above was all in good fun. My point to Stony was that the if it's either or, I'm gonna go for the rifle.
I agree with Rick. Carry both. That way when the spray is ineffective because of the wind you still have a real world alternative.
Or god forbid the bear is charging you the same direction as the wind. Then you're getting maced and then mauled by the bear. D@mn, shoulda had the gun.
Hey Alpine? Throw this softball at me......:D :D :D :D
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...-67Grenade.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by trax
how about one of these instead? :D:D:D:D
:D:D:D LMAOQuote:
Originally Posted by trax
OK, follow these instructions:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine_Sapper
1. Clutch big round part, depressing small side handle
2. Pull ring
3. Release grip on small side handle
4. Maintain firm grip on big round part, throw ring.
Where's that John Wayne spirit? Pull that ring with your teeth.:rolleyes:
What???? Again?????
http://www.peculiarpeople.com/Images...thless_man.jpg
:DYou guys are real comedians.:D I've been charged 4 times. The first time my 12guage blackmagic slug hit the bear in the forehead but did not hit the brain. My hunting friend hit him with a 250gr. Nos. par. from a 338 win mag. in the shoulder. The bear turned toword my friend. Then I hit him again in the ear with another slug which did hit the brain. The bear plowed right over my friend and died about 10 ft past him. This bear had already been shot in the shoulder by another person an hour earlier with a 338 win mag. I had the 870 up to my shoulder in the ready position when the bear charged. If my friend had not also hit him and made him turn I'm sure he would have gotten me. The whole thing happened in the amount of time it took me to cycle the action on the 870. This all happened with the bear no more then 10ft from either of us. The other 3 times I used pepper spray. "No fuss no muss" and I didnt have to prove to the Troopers that it was a justified "DLP" Defence of life or property. The point I'm trying to make is. Chances are you wont have a chance to take an aimed shot. Even if you hit the head you proably wont hit the brain. You are beter off educating yourself about bears and avoiding them.
(We have a saying up here about buying a handgun for bear protection. "File the front sight off, That way it dont hurt so bad when the bear takes it from you and shoves it up you butt".)
Outstanding!!! LMAO!! (to Crashes post).