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Excellent advice Michael. Thanks. Next year I'll monkey up the tree and get some green husked nuts. These black ones make a nice stain, but I think that's about where they end. Since I swapped to live oak bark liquor and put another hide in a straight live-oak tan, I should be able to check it to see if the walnut hides have tanned. It'll be really hard to tell with those since they are already black.
The smell from the long piece of hide is almost completely gone, and the new liquor is taking that sweet smell.
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I have no idea how many days have passed, I'll have to look back at the thread to see when this cow leather went in the live oak. Maybe I should make a new thread just for the live oak tan?
Apparently the tannins are smaller, because the Live oak pieces are done. I'm gonna leave them for a few more days, and probably save one piece until the demo on March 5th, to show the finish breaking.
You can clearly tell that this is struck completely through. The scissors make the middle part look different, but trust me, it's all red.
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...g/DSCN5803.jpg
If it smelled bad you can bet your backskids grandma wouldn't be holding it up for me!
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...g/DSCN5807.jpg
handling it for only a few minutes stained our hands (theres some paint on there too lol)
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...g/DSCN5805.jpg
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...g/DSCN5809.jpg
As black as the walnut tan is, you can tell that the center wasn't tanning, because now it's reddish too. It also feels much tighter and thinner than when in the walnut liquor. I'm convinced the walnut liquor was no good for tanning because the husks weren't green.
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...g/DSCN5812.jpg
So I'm gonna let them soak until I have time to finish them out right. hopefully catch a sunny day while it's still cool, but most likely it'll be thursday during the rain..
Been waiting on this so I can make my powder bag! Lots of projects coming from this stuff so watch for it!
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so it looks like around Jan. 8 I put the black leather in the Live Oak, and maybe a few days later got fresh pieces in seperate buckets of the same liquor.
Last week I made 20 gallons of liquor from one 5 gallon bucket of bark (5 pourings) and put it in a 55 gallon barrel. The liquor had gotten weak with the hides and I didn't feel like they had room, so I split them up into 4 buckets instead of 2 and boosted it with a dose of all 5 pourings combined. A week later they are done. Today is the 8th, so I guess it only took around 30 days. That's my fastest time yet.
The tannins must be smaller to move in so quickly, or the skin is just looser because it's cow.. not sure, but it's really thick and for it to be done already is making me want to get that yote in there.. might just put off a deerskin I'm bucking to work on him. gotta build another size frame for that.. always something to do around here! If you ever get bored, come to my house. We'll get dirty.
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That's awesome, can't wait to see what you make.
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Got the two black walnut pieces scudded and curried today, no pics yet, they just look like wet leather. Special note here: All the bad smell that was in the one piece of hide is completely gone, and nothing but the sweet smell of the live-oak liquor is left.
Curry was 1/2 bar Dial bath soap
1-1/2 cups (Wesson) canola oil
2-1/2 gallons water, soaped and sloshed
I should point out that I rinsed and squeegied about 10 times till the water ran clear.
Dunked and sloshed in the curry for 5 minutes or so turned the curry a deep rusty brown. I think the soap helps loosen excess tannins, and perhaps the oil entering displaces some others.
You can tell if your curry has an oil surplus if oil floats on top. I probably could have gotten by with 1 to 1-1/4 cups oil. Well mixed curry will be almost opaque, but whitish (till the stained skin goes in).
I hope to finish them one day this week as it's supposed to be low humidity and clear skies all week.
I saved the live-oak liquor for doing hocks and possibly some squirrels and hocks, even though it has a bit of the black walnut stain in it.
Haven't decided on all the finish oilings but I'm sure each piece will be a little different. Want my powder-bag to be water repellent so I'll probably use lard or crisco for that one.
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Once you've got them curried and worked dry can you dress them later with a different oil? Can you work them later to get them softer?
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Ok.. I tried an experiment with these two pieces.. sorry for the delay in the response, but I wanted to give you a real answer.
After being curried once with lots of soap and oil, I hung them on my rack to dry without softening AT ALL. It's a bad idea.
The pieces dried into something much like cast-iron. It's taken two weeks to get them re-saturated in a second curry and several days of slowly breaking them back soft.
The simple answer is yes. Let me elaborate.
Curry is used to introduce emulsified oils into the skin. Skin still has it's "rawhide" defense mechanism built in. Currying is not enough to keep the hide from setting up, and it must be broken. A curried and broken hide can be stored and worked more later. Currying is NOT finishing, which is generally reserved for adding texture and/or another type of oil to the skin. Once it's been curried and broken, you will have a much nicer time finishing. Keep in mind the finer the oil (molecular level) the softer and lighter the finished skin will feel.
Whatever finish oil you choose to use, try to limit yourself to oiling the grain side, unless your hide has gone "stiff". Oiling the flesh side at this point will make the hide heavy and greasy on the inside. In some cases this is desirable, such as for a sheath. Not so much for clothing pieces.
Keep in mind that bark tanning tightens the skin, so you will never get it to resemble braintan buckskin, but you can get it softer the more you work it to a certain point, and eventually it will get as soft as it can be. Beyond that, you are just spinning your wheels. Hopefully that answers your question.
Now a few pictures to help folks visualize (maybe I should include these in the "bark tan" thread too?)
After a second curry and a LONG soak, and several breakings, We have a very supple, heavy hide.
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...g/DSCN5841.jpg
You can see the emulsified oils on the surface.
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...g/DSCN5842.jpg
It looks like brown-tinged axle grease, but is just soap, water, and cooking oil that is well mixed.
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...g/DSCN5843.jpg
I used an old shop towel to wipe off excess, let it hang out in the sun for the water to evaporate, and broke it twice more over my e-tool (trench shovel). It got dark before I finished, so I wrapped it in the towel, bagged it and set it in the shop till I get time to work it more this evening. Didn't get a chance to take a picture of the smoothed, less-messy hide, but I'll try to get a shot this evening as I work it. I want to save the other larger piece for the demo this coming weekend.
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Thanks! I was curious because I put a small one inch piece directly out of the bark tan into 100% canola oil. After three or so weeks i pulled it out and it was hard. But, I worked it and it became soft, it's still soft now. I don't know how easy it would be to work a large hide like that, but it seemed to work for the small one inch piece and eliminated the need to slick, curry, and finish it. I just simply dumped it in oil dripping wet, waited two weeks and then worked it real good without applying any more oil.
Do you stretch them as you work them or simply keep them moving without stretching?
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The rounded point on the staker sort of does both at the same time. It pulls in different directions as the "bulge" in the hide conforms to the shape of the tool. I don't try to add much stretch to the utility leathers, but prefer to work them in one direction.. the one I expect it to lay. For example one that will be a belt should be stretched in the direction you intend to cut the strip, and not worked very soft at all. You wouldn't want a belt or shoe soles to have a great deal of stretch. Some working must be done tho, to prevent the rawhide effect.
I would imagine that's a pretty heavy 1" piece, because this piece of cow, with a relatively thick curry is HEAVY.
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Thanks, I think I may have stretched mine a bit much trying to get it soft. I look online at the storebought leather and it appears stiff, like thin sheets of plywood almost.
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This cow is going to turn out a lot like that. It's so thick and tight till it's really difficult to get soft. Deer, being so thin can be worked to a more likable texture, that's why I like the deer. I want to try some pigskin to see if I can get it as pliable as deer, while being thick like cow.. now that would be the best of both worlds. A lot of what you buy at craft stores is pig, sheep, or goat, or split cow for suede type projects. I really doubt you stretched it too much. It's nice for it to have a little "give" when you stick a knife in the sheath for snug fit, or a strap that isn't like a steel pipe.
Got one almost dry today, it's getting stiff no matter how much I work it. It's hard to go from doing buckskin and making things so soft, back to making leathers that can stand in the corner on their own LOL.
I'm going to soften the large piece at the demo Saturday, for kicks.
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RWC, did you look at the pictures in this thread's link?
http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...uot-SUCKS-quot-.........
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I did now! Lots of leather and big vats for bucking, nice!
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Their leather was stacked in very stiff sheets as well.
Pictures of these old tanneries still functioning always give me pause.
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That's the thing, I saw one vid where a factory still does veg tan in the US, but they use modern methods to speed it up a bit and the sheets of leather were the same, like stacks of thin plywood or veneer.
BTW, that little piece is still really soft, but I imagine it would have been hard to work an entire hide that way. Being so small I just rolled it between my fingers for a few, but a big skin you can't simply roll between your fingers. LOL!
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So I decided to make myself a more gentle staker for working with grain-on skins. The abrasive disc just grabbed the flesh side too much to be effective.
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...g/DSCN5927.jpg
In the process of drying, it gets stiff enough to stand on it's own like cardboard (more like plywood)...
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...g/DSCN5929.jpg
But after a good go at the staker, it's floppy and pliable again. Sad to say though, it didn't last.
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...g/DSCN5930.jpg
Got wrapped up in other projects and they got a little stiffer than I wanted overnight, but that's okay because they've been well oiled and should only take a few days soak to be pliable enough to mold again.
While this should probably have been it's own thread, I thought it fit here since it's where I first mentioned using Live Oak. This bark gave a deep bloody red.. almost black color. You can see how the colors and textures changed as I added oil as it dried. It's vegetable oil so after I break them once more, I'll use a lighter oil to keep it lubed as I mold it into shape.
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...g/DSCN5925.jpg
Don't know how long it will have to soak to become pliable again, this is only my second attempt at cow, but I've got some other stuff going on and work's picking up, so as long as it's preserved, we can find out later. I'll keep y'all posted.
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Do you think there's any oils that shouldn't be used? I've read to stay away from petroleum based oils, and also wondered if some oils may go rancid or the like. I was wondering what you thought about that.
BTW, I saved out some scrap 1x's to make a staker, using the cutting board and clamps was a pain in the "neck".
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...and the knees, and lower back and sometimes the knuckles.. lol, yeah I know what you mean!
I wouldn't use any petrol oils on principle alone. Some of them are bad on my own skin so they can't be good for leather, in my mind. I have read about using mineral oils and the like, but I haven't tried it myself, mostly for cost. I use what I have, and cooking oil is fairly affordable. I know lots of folks that use antifreeze (glycol?) to tan reptiles, though I doubt it gets disposed of properly.
Natual oils that might go bad would include things like fish oils, used cooking oil, thin fats or tallows that haven't been clarified well enough. I would stay away from chicken grease and the like for obvious ecoli type reasons. I'm sure there are more that I can't think of right now. If you are familiar with any grease that molds or grows bacteria-type-stuff, don't use that for sure!
Some that could be tried would be things like lanolin, if you perhaps had sheep. marrow-grease if you break bones open, spinal fluid (hey, if you're braintanning, why not?) or any of the fluid from the joints (I think that's called condroitin??), soy lecithin which I've read works, or any parrafin or wax or tallow, provided you can keep it warm enough to work in without damaging the skin.
The knife sheath I finished with tallow is still mold and smell free, so whatever oil it is, it needs to be clean.
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As stiff as it was, Only took one day to rehydrate to make pliable again. Now it's just a matter of having time and energy to get it soft.
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Oh, and fluid from joints is called synovial fluid. It feels very greasy, yet very thin. I'll have to try it on a small piece sometime this winter. Not much left in the way of skins at this juncture, and it's a good thing too, because it is HOT here.
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Staker softened for the most part, then rolled. This piece is about as soft and flimsy as this cow is going to get. I know you can't "feel" the picture, but hopefully it will convey a bit of the texture. It feels like most commercial cowhide leather that I've experienced, except it's much thicker, since I didn't split it.
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...g/DSCN5974.jpg
This is the texture after rolling grain to grain
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...g/DSCN5984.jpg
Gryff had asked me before if there was a way to tell which way the grain runs on leather. Without actually seeing it being made, the distinction can be hard to make. I mention the "triangle" where the hairs come from. If you look closely, you can see the triangle, and you can tell that the hair in this area ran from top left of the pic, to bottom right (maybe you can tell lol).
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I love the knowledge from this site. It will be interesting to see what shade my 'alpaca' fiber turns out after dying it with black walnut...
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Did you ever finish tanning the hide, and did it turn out well? I read on one webpage that tanning with black walnut hulls may result in a brittle, I've collected a bunch of black walnut hulls that I would like to use at least some of for tanning, so I'm really curious to find out if it works to tan with them or not.
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Yes. Some pieces are like body armor, and easily soaked and molded, and the pieces I softened are pliable yet tough enough for moccasin soles.
Let's see... I made this leather three years ago, so it's pretty durable with no sign of molding or rot.
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