BP Oil

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Originally Posted by HeritageFarm

I don't see why we should stop getting imported oil. We don't actually get a very large percentage of oil from terrorist countries, around a couple percent I believe.

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IMO it's a matter of national security and sovereignty. Here are the top 10 of countries that we import oil from. Looks to me that more than one of those are run by regimes that would not hesitate cutting their exports to us if they thought it was prudent.

1. Canada
2. Mexico
3. Saudi Arabia
4. Venezuela
5. Nigeria
6. Angola
7. Iraq
8. Algeria
9. United Kingdom
10. Brazil

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Originally Posted by HeritageFarm

I don't see why we should stop getting imported oil. We don't actually get a very large percentage of oil from terrorist countries, around a couple percent I believe.

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The operative phrase is Addiction to Foreign Oil.
Where it comes from is secondary.

This from the Pickens Plan:

It's an addiction that threatens our economy, our environment and our national security. It touches every part of our daily lives and ties our hands as a nation and as a people.

The addiction has worsened for decades and now it's reached a point of crisis.
In 1970, we imported 24% of our oil.
Today, it's more than 65% and growing.

Please do read the rest of the story if you really care:
http://www.pickensplan.com/theplan/

I've been paying attention to T. Boone and his plan for quite some time. There are a lot of things I like about it.

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Originally Posted by HeritageFarm

I don't see why we should stop getting imported oil. We don't actually get a very large percentage of oil from terrorist countries, around a couple percent I believe.

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First, I have to say that I think your info is incorrect, but aside from that, it's still about $500 billion a year leaving the country. That amount of money would sure help out our economy, if it stayed in this country.

Producing our own oil/natural gas, would create a ton of new domestic jobs, boosting the economy, which will allow us to spend more money on research and development of other energy sources. Currently, the cost of wind and solar are too expensive. Another problem is that battery technology isn't up to the task, yet. People don't seem to think about the fact that wind/solar have to have back-ups. (Sometimes, the sun doesn't shine, and other times, the wind doesn't blow.)

At this time, I have to think nuclear energy is the direction, for the replacement of fossil fuels.

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Originally Posted by 2dumb2kwit

(Sometimes, the sun doesn't shine, and other times, the wind doesn't blow.)

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If you want to see the sunshine, check here :): http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...mber.php?u=200

If you want to feel and hear the wind blow, check here :sneaky2:: http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...ber.php?u=3276

Clean Energy would create lots of jobs too,

2d, You are just Mad cause you dont want to drive a solar powered Race car ! :innocent:

We need everything--nuclear, solar, wind, gas (Rick?)--they shouldn't be mutually exclusive.
Whatever happened to backups? I thought we were all down with that here.

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Originally Posted by BENESSE

We need everything--nuclear, solar, wind, gas (Rick?)--they shouldn't be mutually exclusive.
Whatever happened to backups? I thought we were all down with that here.

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I absolutely agree. No options should be off the table - period.

I'm not down with nuclear generation. Spent fuel and the possibility of an accident are serious considerations that don't have well defined solutions.

And 2D I disagree that solar and wind generated power are too expensive. Indiana added 905 megawatts of wind generated power in 2009. Second only to Texas in construction and 13th in the nation in terms of megawatts generated. We currently have 616 utility sized wind turbines. All in production and feeding the grid.

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Originally Posted by Justin Case

Clean Energy would create lots of jobs too,

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So would washing everyones car, twice a week, but who's going to pay for it?

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Originally Posted by Rick

I'm not down with nuclear generation. Spent fuel and the possibility of an accident are serious considerations that don't have well defined solutions.

And 2D I disagree that solar and wind generated power are too expensive. Indiana added 905 megawatts of wind generated power in 2009. Second only to Texas in construction and 13th in the nation in terms of megawatts generated. We currently have 616 utility sized wind turbines. All in production and feeding the grid.

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I understand that, but you didn't address the cost. The info that I have read, shows that with current technology, on-shore wind farm produced energy cost about twice what coal powered energy cost.....and that doesn't even take into account that you have to have a back-up system for the wind farm. That's even more additional cost.

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Originally Posted by 2dumb2kwit

So would washing everyones car, twice a week, but who's going to pay for it?

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I nominate Rick! :)

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Originally Posted by Justin Case

Clean Energy would create lots of jobs too,

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How many jobs would it kill, when the economy goes all to pieces, when energy prices triple?

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Originally Posted by 2dumb2kwit

How many jobs would it kill, when the economy goes all to pieces, when energy prices triple?

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You are either part of the problem, or part of the solution, 2D. :sneaky2:
((I just had to say it once in my life...feels good.)

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Originally Posted by 2dumb2kwit

First, I have to say that I think your info is incorrect, but aside from that, it's still about $500 billion a year leaving the country. That amount of money would sure help out our economy, if it stayed in this country.

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Ouch. I would like that money to stay here. (Oh, and Walmart imports most everything from China - That there is an enormous amount leaving).
One reason we import our oil could be because we have all these environmental people who don't want oil rigs in national forests.
I present a solution: Stop driving all over the place! Let's buy local produce and meats, that weren't shipped thousands of miles before making it to you.

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Originally Posted by HeritageFarm

Ouch. I would like that money to stay here. (Oh, and Walmart imports most everything from China - That there is an enormous amount leaving).
One reason we import our oil could be because we have all these environmental people who don't want oil rigs in national forests.
I present a solution: Stop driving all over the place! Let's buy local produce and meats, that weren't shipped thousands of miles before making it to you.

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I DO!!!
Don't have a car, walk everywhere, take public transportation or rent a car if I have to.
I buy produce at the farmer's market where farmers from NJ, upstate NY & CT sell their produce. I pay a bit more and eat a bit less.
And yeah, I'm one of those people who don't want anyone f-ing around with our national forests. Because if we ALL did our part, we wouldn't need to.

It is interesting that no one ever says the problem is 6.85 Billion HUMANS, and doubling every 37 to 42 years. We loath War, Pandemic, Famine; We make every effort to keep medically compromised babies and geriatrics alive. Feeding tubes in humans that have been in a coma for years. We play GOD with the Earth, and all forms of live, we cull any animal population deemed to be in a state of overpopulation. We make NEW engineered food in test tubes.

Odd that humans don't pray for a pandemic. Odd that we can't see that "WE" are the cancer that is killing our earth, the very Earth that nurtures us, feeds and clothes us, provides materials for our shelter.

I am NOT advocating any action, only pointing out that we (All) Humans never see that we are the problem.

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Originally Posted by Sourdough

It is interesting that no one ever says the problem is 6.85 Billion HUMANS, and doubling every 37 to 42 years. We loath War, Pandemic, Famine; We make every effort to keep medically compromised babies and geriatrics alive. Feeding tubes in humans that have been in a coma for years. We play GOD with the Earth, and all forms of live, we cull any animal population deemed to be in a state of overpopulation. We make NEW engineered food in test tubes.

Odd that humans don't pray for a pandemic. Odd that we can't see that "WE" are the cancer that is killing our earth, the very Earth that nurtures us, feeds and clothes us, provides materials for our shelter.

I am NOT advocating any action, only pointing out that we (All) Humans never see that we are the problem.

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We ARE the problem, no doubt about it and short of doing something very drastic, we can scale back where it reasonably makes sense. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposition.
If we want to be intellectually honest, we know best where we can personally cut back. Don't concern yourself with what everyone else is doing (the kiss of doom) think about what YOU can do and just do it.

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Originally Posted by BENESSE

You are either part of the problem, or part of the solution, 2D. :sneaky2:
((I just had to say it once in my life...feels good.)

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You're absolutly correct. My point, is that jumping to conclusions/actions that cause more problems than they solve, is a problem....not a solution.

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Originally Posted by 2dumb2kwit

You're absolutly correct. My point, is that jumping to conclusions/actions that cause more problems than they solve, is a problem....not a solution.

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Maybe.
But at some point we've got to get off our a$$es and do something. Sometimes doing ANYthing is better than doing nothing. Have to stop fiddling while Rome's burning, don't you think?

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Originally Posted by HeritageFarm

Ouch. I would like that money to stay here. (Oh, and Walmart imports most everything from China - That there is an enormous amount leaving).

I thought we were talking about oil, and energy, but if you want to go this direction, that's fine. I agree with you about wal-mart, but there is a huge difference. We choose to buy stuff from wal-mart. we are not forced to buy from them, because our gov't won't allow us to produce our own goods.

Don't you agree that choosing to do something, and being forced to dosomething, are two different things?

One reason we import our oil could be because we have all these environmental people who don't want oil rigs in national forests.

....or in the ocean, or in the frozen north, or coal mines in the mountains, etc., etc. We will never have a pristine world, as long as human inhabit it. You just can't have your cake, and eat it too. I would rather that we have control over the process. I think that we tend to care a little more, than a lot of other countries.
I present a solution: Stop driving all over the place! Let's buy local produce and meats, that weren't shipped thousands of miles before making it to you.

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I agree with this, 100%. I've said many times, that the best thing we can do for our world, is stop wasting so dang much.

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Originally Posted by BENESSE

Maybe.
But at some point we've got to get off our a$$es and do something. Sometimes doing ANYthing is better than doing nothing. Have to stop fiddling while Rome's burning, don't you think?

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Who said anything about not doing anything? That sounds like the argument that people without information use.

And no....doing anything is not always better than doing nothing. If you're trying to put out a fire, pouring diesel fuel on it, is not better than leaving it alone.

I never said that we should do nothing. We need to build nuke power plants. We need to get natural gas from off the east coast, among other places, and start using that instead of oil, where practical. We need to work on clean coal tech. We need to work on wind generation tech. We need to work on solar tech. We need to work on battery tech. We need to work on the efficiency of existing power plants. The list goes on and on. There are plenty of good common sense things that can be done, without throwing diesel fuel on the fire.

2D - We are trying to sever our connection from Walmart, and thus, oil. What do you mean we can't grow our own food? I know lots who do.
Ben: Excellent, for doing that.
Back to oil...
2D: I think nuclear plants are too dangerous. If something bad happens, it would be many times worse than burning coal - not to mention getting all that reactive stuff is costly, and disposal is also very hazardous. Also, not many reactive things are in handydandy deposits.



We must be the change we want to see...

I agree "we are the problem" we would never have become THE problem if we had'nt gone into mass production. Mass production of food, cars, houses, baby strollers and everthing else. The population would have remained stable and sustainable. Food would be local and organic, not mass produced GM seeds that cant produce food that can produce viable seeds. Yes we are animals who have strayed from the natural path of an animal. We have modified our enviroment to the breaking point. And its starting to break. Only this time its not a local event, its global.

Very well said, reminds me of a quote from Jeffery Smith on GMO's: "The mice wouldn't eat the GMO food. So, it is time for us to bring humans up to the level of animals!"

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Originally Posted by Heritage

sever our connection from Walmart, and thus, oil

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Not possible to get away from oil. Very few folks are autonomous. Everything you touch, even off grid, is in some way connected to oil.

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Originally Posted by huntermj

we would never have become THE problem if we had'nt gone into mass production

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Okay, I don't understand this at all. Population growth is tied to food availability, not the abundance of cars and houses.

@2D - When the technology was new there was a disparity in cost. In the 80's the cost of wind power was about 30 cents a kilowatt hour. Today, it's about 5 cents a kilowatt hour when you factor in the tax credits from the Production Tax Credit. Most of that is related to turbine design. However, I will concede that wind availability is a driving factor in cost. If your turbine turns in a 5 mph breeze it will produce much less electricity than a 10 mph breeze and the cost will be much higher.

As to backups, Indiana utilities utilize standby power plants on today's grid to balance need and production. As wind generation increases gas/coal generation must decrease to balance need/production. Since gas/coal plants already exist there isn't a need to build more. We would just utilize what we already have. The up side to that is that adding more wind (or solar) would reduce the need for coal/gas plants.

@ Sourdough - It's your job to eliminate about 2 billion folks. Start in China, please.

Like i said in the compleate Quilifing sentance, mass production of food. And everything else.

I wasn't trying to take anything out of context. I just didn't understand your position on the other items with regard to their impact on reproduction.

This easier for me to say then type. All mass production facilities pollute the enviroment in some way. Name one that does not and you get a gold star. if we only took what the land offered then moved on to let it regrow non of this would be happining. But this cant be done with the artificialy inflated poplation. All species go through boom and bust periods and then extexcion. or maybe not. I belive we've taken our species to the brink at this point. It may not happen in my life time but we will go through a "readjustment" at some point. Back to a sustainable level.
Mass production helps in the short term but is killing us in the long term.
Sorry for the spelling, my ispell is not working.

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Originally Posted by Rick

Not possible to get away from oil. Very few folks are autonomous. Everything you touch, even off grid, is in some way connected to oil.



Okay, I don't understand this at all. Population growth is tied to food availability, not the abundance of cars and houses.

@2D - When the technology was new there was a disparity in cost. In the 80's the cost of wind power was about 30 cents a kilowatt hour. Today, it's about 5 cents a kilowatt hour when you factor in the tax credits from the Production Tax Credit. Most of that is related to turbine design. However, I will concede that wind availability is a driving factor in cost. If your turbine turns in a 5 mph breeze it will produce much less electricity than a 10 mph breeze and the cost will be much higher.

As to backups, Indiana utilities utilize standby power plants on today's grid to balance need and production. As wind generation increases gas/coal generation must decrease to balance need/production. Since gas/coal plants already exist there isn't a need to build more. We would just utilize what we already have. The up side to that is that adding more wind (or solar) would reduce the need for coal/gas plants.

@ Sourdough - It's your job to eliminate about 2 billion folks. Start in China, please.

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That's 5 cents, plus 1.5 cent's, (that the gov't takes from us and gives to them.), which equals 6.5 cents. I believe that currently, coal produced energy is about 3 cents.

Doesn't that make wind energy cost about double, what coal energy cost?

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Originally Posted by huntermj

This easier for me to say then type. All mass production facilities pollute the enviroment in some way. Name one that does not and you get a gold star. if we only took what the land offered then moved on to let it regrow non of this would be happining. But this cant be done with the artificialy inflated poplation. All species go through boom and bust periods and then extexcion. or maybe not. I belive we've taken our species to the brink at this point. It may not happen in my life time but we will go through a "readjustment" at some point. Back to a sustainable level.
Sorry for the spelling, my ispell is not working.

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So, are you saying that we should let the non-producers die, instead of giving them food, shelter, and clothing?

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Originally Posted by HeritageFarm

2D - We are trying to sever our connection from Walmart, and thus, oil. What do you mean we can't grow our own food? I know lots who do.
Ben: Excellent, for doing that.
Back to oil...
2D: I think nuclear plants are too dangerous. If something bad happens, it would be many times worse than burning coal - not to mention getting all that reactive stuff is costly, and disposal is also very hazardous. Also, not many reactive things are in handydandy deposits.

We must be the change we want to see...

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Perhaps your info is not current. France has waste down to very small %'s, and cost is less than other forms of energy.

Is it any more dangerous, than what we are doing now?

Oh...and after you look at France, you should also look at the record of nuke power in the U.S. Navy.

So, are you saying that we should let the non-producers die, instead of giving them food, shelter, and clothing? __________________


If a person can not or does not contribute to there own welfare what can and should happen to them?

Survival of the fitess baby!

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Originally Posted by HeritageFarm

I think nuclear plants are too dangerous.

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Oh, I don't know. I slept a couple of hundred feet from one for over twenty years........

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Originally Posted by crashdive123

Oh, I don't know. I slept a couple of hundred feet from one for over twenty years........

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And look at you now! :innocent: Nice red glow and all......... http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...ine=1238096358

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Originally Posted by huntermj

So, are you saying that we should let the non-producers die, instead of giving them food, shelter, and clothing? __________________


If a person can not or does not contribute to there own welfare what can and should happen to them?

Survival of the fitess baby!

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Hahaha....I've said before, that culling the herd may not be a bad thing.

I've even argued, that universal health care will speed up environmental destruction. :innocent: LOL

@ huntermj - We don't take off for spelling. I have to agree with the boom and bust idea. We go through it all the time with pandemics, wars, etc. I guess that's how we self adjust. But I get your point. No mass production limits food supply which limits population. I can buy that. Improvements in medical care would also have to be factored in, I think.

@ 2D - I think it's actually 2.1 cents per kilowatt hour.

Here's a layout of all sources of power generation and their cost per kilowatt hour. I don't know the date on this model but it looks to be current.

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directo..._Kilowatt-Hour

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Originally Posted by Rick

Here's a layout of all sources of power generation and their cost per kilowatt hour. I don't know the date on this model but it looks to be current.

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The suspense is killing me. :innocent:

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Originally Posted by Ken

The suspense is killing me. :innocent:

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That's what I was thinking......and here's the proof that I'm King of America.
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