oh and also, is cotton ball a good starter tinder?
and also, is it easier to put tinder under the board, or transfer the coal?
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oh and also, is cotton ball a good starter tinder?
and also, is it easier to put tinder under the board, or transfer the coal?
Cotton can be used, but if you are going to all of the trouble to use a primitive method for starting a fire...............just sayin'.
Transfer the coal.
Your fire board or some folks say hearth is the base. So, I wouldn't say you were wrong. If the wood you are using doesn't put off a lot of saw dust it is too hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by crimescene450
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/4...onepics024.jpg
I don't know many woods. But, there is a post where good woods were posted on this site. It definitely matters what woods you use.Quote:
heres my spindle, made of sugar maple
does maple work? and is this straight enough? should i completely debark it? or does it not matter?
http://survivalinstructor.blogspot.c...ill-woods.html
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/42/phonepics022.jpg
I use a blunt end on the base of the drill and a pointed end on the hand piece.Quote:
heres my point (i have no clue why this pic is so big)
is this good at all?
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/8...onepics020.jpg
im not sure if this is a good handhold. its a shell we had lying around
what are some other good handholds?
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6...onepics026.jpg
I'd tighten the string and make sure your are able to maintain zero slippage.Quote:
heres my bow
is this curvey enough?
now my problems:
my main problem is that the spindle keeps poppping out
i hear this is because of bad form. but it is possible that the handhold is allso bad? there really isnt a divot in the shell.
a second problem is my string keeps stretching. im not sure what to do about that though
on a couple of tries i had smoke, so i stopped but there was no ember
my residue is light to dark brown and really fine[/QUOTE]
Your spindle is popping out because the notch is to small and close to the edge. At least that has been my experience. Dark brown saw dust and smoke after you stop sawing means you got a coal. Lightly "lightly" blow on the smoke spot and the dust will grow an ember.
At least that has been my experience.
I would like to say lightly again and some times just leave it be if there is a breeze.
I'm still trying to mark it off as a skill and can't. I have made fire with it. But, I can't yet do it every time! :sneaky2:
I still have no idea what wood im gonna use. There is nothing around here that immediatley jumps out as the perfect wood. Most of the stuff around is hard as hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justin_baker
yeah i know, thats why i waited to go to my dads house in ohio
so much more resourses
the good news it, its super dry in CA. and when i start flint fires, i find the seeds of the grass (the kind that grows on the hills, idk what its called) works very well and catches the spark
so if i were to try a friction fire there (which i will if i get it down here first) id use dried grass seeds asa tinder
if maple works for me, then maybe bigleaf maple will work for you
Quote:
Originally Posted by Batch
actually i almost think that might be the problem
when the spindle is in it, it is super tight and always wants to escape, which might be why it
pops out
yeah good pointQuote:
Originally Posted by crashdive123
there doesnt seem to be much tinder around here
cuz its been storming for the past 10 days
would fine bark shavings work?
and how does one transfer a coal?
a leaf or soemthing?
I'm going to try to address the issues here.
Crimescene450:
Your notch is too wide. remember the rule of thirds: notch width is 1/3 the diameter of the spindle; notch depth is about 1/3 INTO the divot. The "base" is called several things, hearth, hearthboard, fireboard... It's a technicality so call it what you want to. We'll know what you're talking about :D
Crown molding is most often birch or fir. Make sure it isn't very resinous. If you see any sap drippings on it, it's no good.
I haven't tried sugar maple. your spindle doesn't have to be perfectly straight, but it doesn't need a big hook in it either. A little wobble is acceptable, a lot of wobble will make the spindle pop out of the divot. The bark makes no difference and you can leave it on. The pointy tip will eventually flatten with use. I don't put a very long tip on mine at all.. just enough to seat into the hearthboard. You want as much surface contact between the hearth and spindle as possible. Not just the 1/4" on the very tip, but the whole 1" thick spindle end (or however thick it is).
As long as your socket (handhold) is smooth enough and allows the spindle to spin freely, it'll work fine. I've used lighter knots before, but I really prefer my nice limestone rock for it's weight and the way it fits my hand.
I don't think your bow has enough curve, but I've seen (on the net) folks using bows that were almost straight. I guess you use what you can find, but I'd look for one that is a bit more curved. As long as you can get a good long spin in one direction, that's all that really matters. Look at my bow in the OP.
the spindle popping out of the socket is pretty common and I still do it from time to time. I have to agree that it is bad form MOST OF THE TIME, but the socket also needs a good seat for the spindle to ride in and it needs to be greased with something so there is no friction on that end of the spindle. For now, focus on form and getting a new socket.
DON'T STOP JUST BECAUSE YOU SEE SMOKE! Often you are just barely reaching the ignition temperature when you start to see smoke and you have to get it just above that temperature to actually kick an ember out. When I see smoke, I usually keep spinning for another minute or so. The smoke will change from grey to yellow-ish. The yellow tint is the indication that something is burning and you have an ember. It still takes me about 3 minutes as a norm to get an ember. typically it takes 5 minutes to hold fire in my hands. When experimenting with different woods, It takes as long as it takes to work out the quirks.
string stretch is going to be a problem. you need better cordage. Also, if your string is too tight, it will make the spindle want to pop out. I leave slack in my bowstring and take up the slack with my fingers when I take up the bow. Reading your latest post, I would think the pop-out is on account of the string being too tight and the socket not "fitting" your hand and the spindle properly. Please refer to (and reread) the OP. I think you missed a few minor details (or maybe I didn't cover them). Sounds like your dust (really fine) is a good wood, so try changing the other things mentioned above first, and if all else fails, get yourself some yucca stalks.
I use a leaf under my hearth and transfer my coal and dustpile into my tindle which usually contains some ingredient similar to a cotton ball. I prefer thistle or dandelion (or similar fluffy stuff) fluff as it catches most of the dust and helps the ember propagate into the tindle.
Maybe I answered all the questions lol. Hope that helps!
ycc- thanks, im going to make a new bow, out of green wood, so it bends today. and im gonna try and get a new handheld.
ill try this later today, and let all you guys know how it goes.
so i made a new bow today, and its alot better (more curvy)
i also made a new handhold out of a piece of pine, lubed with somekind of cedar-looking plant
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7...onepics004.jpg
i also managed to carve out a rock (sandstone) handhold, but it doesnt seem to work as well.
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/9...onepics010.jpg
now my end is starting to get pretty blunt tipped. should i sharpen it to a point again?
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6743/phonepics006.jpg
my handhold end is also getting pretty blunt now, should the handhold end be pointier?
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/1376/phonepics008.jpg
my main problem now, is the bow keeps locking up. the string is crossing over the other string and locking it up.. is there a way to noit have this happen?
also, i did have one good attempt this morning, i had a ton of white smoke, so i kept going, but then the spindle popped and everything went flying..
every attempt after that had the string lock up. and i got tired and frustrated
I like to hold my bow at a slight angle.. the aft end (away from my bow-hand) usually rubs the ground, while the fore-end (the end you hold) is about 3-4 inches above the ground. Pay attention to which way you wrap your spindle so that the bow angle matches the spindle wrap. I have done a backwards wrap in this example, but it works great for me to eliminate slippage (but I have mastered the mechanics). Keep your wrap low on the spindle. That seems to help me with pop-outs. I think your problem here is more mechanical than technical and I'm sure you'll have fire as soon as you work out all the mechanics.
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...g/DSCN3236.jpg
I only sharpen my spindle on the hot end when making a new divot and it grinds down pretty quickly to make a matched seat. Also of note, is that your second divot has a much better notch IMO.
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...g/DSCN3269.jpg
Notice how "blunt" my hot end is (the end toward me) and the direction of the wrap. I'm right-handed and I like my spindle on the outside of the string (closer to me)... You may want to wrap yours backwards from mine so that the string doesn't cross over itself...
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...g/DSCN3271.jpg
and how I take up the slack with my fingers when I take up the bow.
If you got lots of white smoke, you are well on your way. Looks like you are getting VERY close to making fire, now it's just a matter of getting the mechanics down. I'm confident you will make fire soon. If you dont' get a picture of anything else, I want to see the smile on your face when you finally do make fire!
Hope that helps! Keep me updated on your progress. All these problems being addressed will help someone reading this thread in the future.
I am still not getting this! GRR.
although my technique is improving. i learned to do the hold the string tight thing, and im alot better at keeping it level.
Im starting to think its my fireboard now, the board, (if you noticed) is some kinda fancy base board for walls. and i think it might have something in it.
i get smoke every time mow, but it never turns yellow, and i usually just get tired.
heres my dust with my fancy board
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/3...onepics046.jpg
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/6...onepics048.jpg
i made a new fireboard. I think its cottonwood now, but im not sure, its been in our log pile for a few years, so its pretty dry.
heres my dust from that
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/8...onepics050.jpg
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/9434/phonepics052.jpg
so far ive gone through 4 strings, 2 bows, 2 boards, 4 handholds, and still using my 1st spindle.
is my dust good? and also, if i get a coal. will i actually be able to see a glow?
I'm absolutely clueless on this, but that last pics looks like your dust is brown and maybe not getting quite hot enough.
My arms are still healing from my attemt at this last winter. Good luck
!
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwc1969
yeah. im getting quite a workout from this
haha
one time i was going on for like 10 mins, trying different pressures, speeds, angles, etc...
my dad decided to be funny and made a spindle drill bit and came out with a drill
haha
unfortunately he didnt know not to use pine, so it didnt work. lol
I think the dust looks good enough.
At first you won't see a glow, just a wisp of yellow smoke. A few posts back I pointed out that your hearth being crown molding meant that it was probably fir (post 46). The new ?cottonwood? one looks better for grain.
Remember it takes a pretty good pile of dust for the ember to nestle in. Usually the dustpile has to get high enough to fill the notch in the hearth THEN the friction actually has something to react with. In this case, more is better.
I wish I could be there to watch as you spin and maybe we could figure out why it's not working. Make sure you have enough dust to actually catch. The ember will be buried in there and will take a few gentle breaths to grow into an ember you can see. Do you have yucca growing there? It is probably my favorite spindle material and it grows literally everywhere around here.
If you have the mechanics down, you're getting closer. Keep trying. I'm confident you'll get it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by your_comforting_company
nope, no yucca.
i read that birch makes a good spindle, so im gonna try that today
ill film my attempt, so you can see my form
I got alot of smoke this time. Im not sure if youll be able to see it, but its there.
and my pile smoked for like 5 seconds afterwards.. but went out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWgDGEcov3E
btw, my birch spindle literly crumbled under pressure, so i stuck with the maple
It looked to me like you had an ember at about 1:30 into that video. Your form was pretty good. After you've had the smoke plume for a few seconds, try increasing your pressure ever so slightly, and work the bow a little faster. Every time it stops spinning, your dustpile cools off just slightly. you had a nice dustpile and the texture looked fine enough. I've used some woods that are pretty coarse (the dust) and it still worked.
Try using a last burst of speed and pressure. You really should have had an ember with that attempt. The notch in your hearth didn't look wide enough to me, and I never dump my dustpile on the ground. That dustpile is like gold to the primitive firemaker. Most of the work goes into getting the dustpile high enough to reach the bottom of the spindle (which heats up enough to catch the dust nearest it). If you hadn't dumped your dustpile, your next attempt would have been "primed" and you would have saved about half the spinning time.
Have all your materials prepared also. When you think you have an ember, it should have your undivided attention. You are dealing with an ember that starts off the size of a few molecules and grows. It is like nursing a child, and you really have to nurture it for a few seconds 'till it grows big enough to sustain itself. Don't look away until the ember is going.
I'm still not completely sure why it isn't working.
Hopefully these few tweaks will get you going. It looks to me like you are VERY close and I really thought you had an ember in the video.
Nice video by the way!
Quote:
Originally Posted by your_comforting_company
So if i save the powder, (even if its cold) i can just put it in my notch and start spinning?
Question: I have learned to get the ember going on a regular basis. The problem is that the ember keeps going out on me before I can transfer it to the tinder nest. I am using a cottonwood spindle and a cottonwood or cedar fireboard. I get lots of dirty yellow smoke followed by a wisp of smoke in the notch, but the ember keeps going out on me. What am I doing wrong?
^ i think its because your coal isnt packed enough and has nothing to keep it burning
but dont quote me on that because im just as much of a noob at this as you probably are.
My daughter had not seen me do this yet. I warn you I have perma-socks from wearing boots with shorts. LOL
Anyhow, I made the fire board real quick from willow. Used my existing bow and drill. Real bad form with my wrist that far from my knee and I angle the drill a lot. I have a reason for that, but, if you don't then avoid doing that.
Also I get all that slippage on the string. My drill doesn't need to be round and my string is a little too slack. Though, I think the dril being to round is the bigger problem for me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8qivbjWmQs
Well done. I have the same socks BTW.
Batch got it!! That is awesome!
One thing I might suggest to help get the flame a little faster: As you start blowing the ember into the tindle, use your hands to compact the tindle around the ember. The closer your ember is to the stuff in the nest, the quicker it'll catch fire.
2 and a half minutes is remarkable! Great job Batch!
For jbtusa.. make sure you knock the ember out of the hearth notch pretty quickly or smoke and close quarters will smother the ember rather than letting it grow. It's hard to troubleshoot this sort of thing across the internet. It sounds like it's getting smothered, but I can't say for sure. If you can get an ember on demand, keep doing it until you figure out how to get it out of the board alive.
Crimescene and jbtusa, you guys are very close to success. Don't give up!! If batch and I can do it, I know you guys can too!!
Yeah, I have to work on getting the tinder to light faster. I actually thought it wasn't going to light for a second or two.
I haven't done this since I posted about it last because it has been real hot and humid. I was wondering if the humidity would prevent the tinder from lighting.
Anyhow I am going to practice more often and I'll try and get a video with better form and some socks and shoes on. It is obvious from my tan lines I ain't no Cody Lundin. LOL
I like four legged, fur bearing animals. But, then again everyone has to have a fetish, no? :innocent::blushing:
hmm.. last I checked fish don't have legs and I eat them all the time. I'm with Cody on the whole "don't eat snakes" thing. birds only have 2 legs and we eat them too.
I think at the end of the day, you'll either go to bed hungry, or build a fire and cook what you have at your disposal. When it comes to going to bed hungry, I find that my preconceptions and "being picky" go right out the window.
The reason I point out tightening up the nest around the ember, I've watched more than one friend do all the work of spinning an ember, I mean a good ember, only to lose the fire due to the nest being too loose to catch. I know it gets hot and I've gotten blisters on more than one occasion, but a little pain on the end of my finger is minor next to hunger pangs or eating raw meat (or drinking fetid water through a cigarette butt straw, that's pretty desperate!).
I hope my comments don't get the thread off track. I have successfully taught a few guys (and one girl) how to spin fire with a bow-drill in a person-to-person scenario. It's much harder when theres a continent separating us! The fact that you can make fire is outstanding, whether it takes 2 minutes or 10. Just thought I'd reiterate the importance of a well-made tindle.
Great job!! Kudos to the camera operator!!!
Bro, your posts do nothing but help!Quote:
Originally Posted by your_comforting_company
I make the Cody and Dave jokes about my socks and the four legged animals just for fun. But, you definitely help with your posts.
Even the chest pumping and stuff is a joke for me like when Tom Hanks made fire on the island in Castaway. LOL
Rick,
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y13...s/CIMG4030.jpg
Camera girl (oldest daughter) is in the foreground holding the bait. Youngest daughter is behind her. Baits name is Paco... :online2long:
I have a funny story, and probably an outragous opinion on this...
I'm helping a contractor for a few days. apparently his helper quit and since I wasn't roofing this week, and he needed a hand...
I was telling him about all the primitive stuff I do, and after work, showed a few arrowheads, and tanned animals, and mentioned I could make fire with sticks. He said "you gotta be sh......in me" and laughed. I smiled and said "no really, I can have fire in my hands in less than two minutes!"
Long story short.. I tried 4 times to make fire and FAILED MISERABLY. I was pouring sweat, out of breath, and humiliated.
We laughed about it and made a few "gasoline and a match" jokes, and he left.
I came inside, read the boards, which took 10 or 15 minutes, and still feeling defeated, yet having made fire by this method at least a hundred times by now... Tried again.
hahahahhahahaha (it's okay if you laugh at me too)
I had fire in a minute and a half again..
If you're showing off, prepare to be humiliated.
If you're doing it for yourself, you may succeed.
Immisee frowns on the proud.
at least that's my theory.
sorry for such a long boring story, but this went down in the last... I dunno 45 minutes and I needed to cool off after that last round. hahaha!
I don't know why it didn't work.. I didn't change a single thing on the fifth try. same divot, notch, spindle, platform, tindle... everything was the same.. even the patch of ground I was using. I know it sounds crazy, but it wouldn't work because I was trying to impress someone with it. When I tried the last time, there were no witnesses but me.
Maybe this makes me officially nutty? I don't know but I sure as heck couldn't make fire while he was watching!
which begs the question...
How are you other guys faring? Any success yet with friction fire?
(crimescene and jb in particular)
Hey batch, have you tried it in the humidity? that presents a whole new challenge! Don't let the sweat dripping off your nose fall on the ember and all!! DOH!
I know what you mean about showing off. I had a cook out last weekend and wanted to light the charcoal chimney with the bow drill. Lots of folks watching and I said before I started that the drill had drifted the hole so the notch was off.
I sawed a bit and got plenty of smoke and then lust made a new start and notch. Then I got fire really quickly.
You can see the drift I was talking about and the second notched area in this photo.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y13...s/P7210004.jpg
A bit off topic (sorry!) but what is that tree on the right side of the pic?
I find that drift is often caused by the spindle not being straight. As it wobbles around, it kinda finds a place to fit. Glad to know you are still bow-drilling for your own edification. When you light the grill like this, it adds a certain degree of satisfaction to the meal.
Great job batch!!
Looks like an avacado tree.
A Giant avocado tree!Quote:
Originally Posted by crashdive123
Yes, that is an avocado and then coconut palm behind that.
hmmm... I wonder if you can make fire with avocado limbs? We've had discussion before about palms being good tinder too. Quite a few resources right there in your back yard!
I don't think I've ever seen one quite that big. neat. Is that in your back yard?
Yeah, it is in my backyard.
I never even thought about trying to make a fire with avocado wood. Though I did think about grinding up some coconut and getting the oil and burning that in a lantern. with all of the fat in avocados, I wonder how easy it would be to use a fuel. I have used the lives as part of my tinder bundle. Along with dried grass and palm fluff.
I have taken to using the green avocado leaves to catch my coal when bow drilling. It actually seems to work better than the cardboard.
The dried palm limbs from the coconut tree burn pretty good.
I got crepe myrtle to work last night.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelius95
I tried to put the photos in a series thing, but I couldn't figure it out, so I apologize for the shabby job on that. I was pretty tired after doing it too so I also aplogize for the blurriness.
I used my tulip poplar hearth. Needs to be a good hard hearth. The crepe myrtle required more pressure than yucca, and thus a tighter string, so it took me one good try to figure out the mechanics of the materials. Second try with a non-green limb worked!
This is the spindle that has been aging in the shed since the original post. I have some more out in the weather that I will try soon.
Thought you might like to know there is some use for those dreadful things besides looking pretty.
Notice how I start off with the standard loose "bird nest" in pic 2. Once I get a good heart in it, in photo 3, I tighten it up in 4, while still blowing on it, and you see the heart growing in photo 5 as I continue to tighten it. Photo 6 is just a few seconds after 5 and is in flames!
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...DSCN4719-2.jpg
Ive been trying for 3 days now and still haven't got a fire going by this method Ive gotten a little smoke but thats about it, Maybe its the wood I'm using, I have cedar, oak , and a pear tree, I've tried all three with no luck yet. after rereading this thread I'm thinking maybe I'm using too green of a wood. so after a cartoon break its back outside for me and my little buddy to try again.
Thank you for sharing this. It's great to see an explanation with detailed photographs. I like the idea of carrying the bow as a walking stick as I do a lot of hiking myself and can utilise this method. I think it's a really useful skill to have and it's always something when demonstrated ignites the boy scout in everyone :-)
yep. it needs to be DEAD. fresh wood has too much moisture locked in the cells. As I've found with several materials, it should preferrably be "weathered".
Keep trying with different materials. If you can locate yucca, it is a very good firestarter and is what I learned with.
Has anybody tried stag horn sumac as a spindle or fire board?
That stuff grows like crazy in some sections around my place.Seems to me it would need to dry out considerably as it has a rather spongy center.