Will we return to this life?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ken

Here's the way I see it. The advances made by mankind - agriculture, science, manufacturing - are all good. The fact is, we have abused the process and the product.

We have poisoned much of the earth in the process, and we, mankind as a whole, have abused our capacity to produce and to consume, resulting in the over-population of this planet to a point of no return so far as sustainability or available resources go.

Given circumstances as they are, the worlds population will continue to grow exponentially. It's like we've built this great boat, and we just keep piling people aboard unaware of the fact that it will eventually sink or capsize. Nothing short of a cataclysmic event or a world-wide pandemic or famine will correct this situation. Period.

---

or...no sex for the entire planet for 40 years.

Ken, although I agree with what your saying in reality.
Philosphically though...how was the development of agriculture good? In fact how can we even call it an advancement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alaskan Survivalist

or...no sex for the entire planet for 40 years.

---

I've thought about the effect of "skipping" one or two generations. What I fear is.........

A large percentage of babies born with birth defects to older parents.

A population incapable of performing the necessary jobs to sustain the rest, since most people are truly most productive between their 20's and 60's.

A huge population of seniors without any available medical care.

A complete lack of teachers - in or out of the classroom - to pass on knowledge and skills.

And that's just a short list.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DOGMAN

Ken, although I agree with what your saying in reality.
Philosphically though...how was the development of agriculture good? In fact how can we even call it an advancement.

---

Without agriculture, most of our time would be devoted to hunting and gathering, leaving little or no time for manufacturing, science, commerce, the arts, etc. I, for one, enjoy driving a car, buying my ammunition, stopping for ice cream, and posting to this forum. I don't think any of these options would have come about without agriculture having come first.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ken

Without agriculture, most of our time would be devoted to hunting and gathering

---

Actually, Anthropological research states that hunters and gatherers enjoy more free time than any other type of culture. Agriculture societies have very little free time compated to H&G's

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ken

Without agriculture, most of our time would be devoted to hunting and gathering, leaving little or no time for manufacturing, science, commerce, the arts, etc. I, for one, enjoy driving a car, buying my ammunition, stopping for ice cream, and posting to this forum. I don't think any of these options would have come about without agriculture having come first.

---

It really does not take that much time. One moose will feed you a long time and fish is even easier. One thing I like about the bush is all the time I have to progress. Like you I like the trappings of civilization but contrary to how most would think my ups and downs in life came from that. I do good out of town and build up land and then some day someone comes along and offers me more money than I can refuse and I take the money and go bezerk in the city, Blow all my money and then return to woods and start all over again. There are just too many temptations there. I've gotten older and don't know if I can do it over again, not as easy anyway, this is what's keeping me on the straight and narrow. I'm learning restraint but with gold at over a thousand an ounce the temptation is great. I have no problem making money, it's keeping it.

But I think you guys are thinking on a personal level. Killing a moose is fine as a hunter gatherer. You can feed yourself and your clan. What do you do for greens or clothing or steel or any of the other items that you WANT to have because it will make your life easier. You'll turn to someone that is not a hunter gatherer. Someone that has specialized in some other trade. Native Americans did the same thing. Great trading settlements are dotted throughout the country where they exchanged pelts and shells and pottery and tools of all kinds.

Life is about the greatest good for the most people. You may not feel that way but I think it's selfish not to. I want others to thrive. Agriculture was a way to do that. It allowed specialization within communities and still does. A Jack-of-all-trades doesn't do a lot of things well even if he can do a lot of things. Specializing in one thing allows the craftsman to fine turn his skill. A farmer is nothing less than a craftsman of food.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rick

Life is about the greatest good for the most people.

---

Since when?

Seriously? You think it's every man for himself? From earliest times we banned together for protection and to share resources. We send aid all over the world today because of tsunamis or earthquakes. I think someone just spent some time helping a brother-in-law? We're all in this together. Our wives make certain of it.

Dogman, since you brought up anthropologists let me quote from a little known study. Hunter gatherers often had to make a choice when one of their clan was injured. They would either have to leave that person behind to a sure death or stay put until the injured party recovered. That latter decision might well mean that the whole clan could starve to death.

Outside a small cave in France there is evidence that a hunter gatherer informed his wife that her mother would have to be left behind because she was injured. He regained consciousness some time later and decided to stay put and become a farmer. I'm going by memory on that so don't quote me.

You must have seen this promotional add.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wiRhVzsXFM

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rick

From earliest times we banned together for protection and to share resources. We send aid all over the world today because of tsunamis or earthquakes. I think someone just spent some time helping a brother-in-law? We're all in this together.

---

This kind of is what I'm getting at. When is it too much. Helping friends and family, a tribal society, a rebublic with strong states rights or full blown totalitarian NWO? Where do you draw the line? When did the good things turn bad or too much?

The question is: "will we return to this life;" meaning, if I understand this correctly, will we regress to the way we used to be? What this means to me is no indoor plumbing, shorter lifespans, whole families dying off because of epidemics, and so on. At this point, I'd say that no, we never will. One thing that has increased as we've progressed is knowledge. The folks that lived back then did not have the knowledge of how to do the things or make the things that we have today. Also, there was a lot more violence and anarchy going on then than now. Today it wouldn't be tolerated. :cool2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarge47

The question is: "will we return to this life;" meaning, if I understand this correctly, will we regress to the way we used to be? What this means to me is no indoor plumbing, shorter lifespans, whole families dying off because of epidemics, and so on. At this point, I'd say that no, we never will. One thing that has increased as we've progressed is knowledge. The folks that lived back then did not have the knowledge of how to do the things or make the things that we have today. Also, there was a lot more violence and anarchy going on then than now. Today it wouldn't be tolerated. :cool2:

---

I saw a statistic that said 75 percent of the world population live like that now. The economy is raising that percentage each day. An adjustment is coming and my question is at what level do you think it will balance out. I doubt many honestly think things will improve or even maintain the statis quo.

We just went through the adjustment. The level that it balances out is what we have right now. I would guess that most think things will improve or we wouldn't be seeing an increase in home buying, an increase in stock investments or an increase in the purchase of durable goods.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ken

Here's the way I see it. The advances made by mankind - agriculture, science, manufacturing - are all good. The fact is, we have abused the process and the product.

We have poisoned much of the earth in the process, and we, mankind as a whole, have abused our capacity to produce and to consume, resulting in the over-population of this planet to a point of no return so far as sustainability or available resources go.

Given circumstances as they are, the worlds population will continue to grow exponentially. It's like we've built this great boat, and we just keep piling people aboard unaware of the fact that it will eventually sink or capsize. Nothing short of a cataclysmic event or a world-wide pandemic or famine will correct this situation. Period.

---

That really is it in a nutshell. Now all we have to do is wait for nature or our own inner controls to set it right. Maybe next time we won't be so greedy, shortsighted and selfish.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarge47

.... Also, there was a lot more violence and anarchy going on then than now. Today it wouldn't be tolerated. :cool2:

---

That's not true IMO. We have more violence and anarchy today, it's just disguised as something else or happening somewhere other than here. Toe-mato tu-motto
.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alaskan Survivalist

I saw a statistic that said 75 percent of the world population live like that now.....I doubt many honestly think things will improve or even maintain the statis quo.

---

Not where I live. And who says what people are thinking is correct? Where you live there's no where near as many people as around here. :cool2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rwc1969

That's not true IMO. We have more violence and anarchy today, it's just disguised as something else or happening somewhere other than here. Toe-mato tu-motto
.

---

Ahh, but that's my point, in the old days it was everywhere including here! :cool2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarge47

Not where I live. And who says what people are thinking is correct? Where you live there's no where near as many people as around here. :cool2:

---

Fox news, most of talk radio.

It still is here though more than ever before....because there's more people than ever before.

Per capita it's probably the same as it ever it was.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rwc1969

It still is here though more than ever before....because there's more people than ever before.

Per capita it's probably the same as it ever it was.

---

Hmmm, think I'd of noticed that. Let me look out the window....no, no corpses littering the street! I'll check the newspaper....no, nobody "gunned down" lately; all fatalites either from a car accident or natural causes. Nope, not getting any "old west" stuff here. :sneaky2:

I've lived in NYC for over 20 yrs. It has never been safer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BENESSE

I've lived in NYC for over 20 yrs. It has never been safer.

---

And it will get even safer under totalitarian rule. Video cameras everywhere, neighbors reporting neighbors, FEMA ready to step in. Very safe indeed. AS a truck driver I was forced to take training under a program called HYWAY WATCH. I was given a few hours of training and an ID card to verify my idendity when I call in to report things I see in my truck to make sure it is legitimate. OBEY, you are being watched. They are getting thier ducks in a row. It is freedom and prosperity that is being outlawed. Stay scared, stay safe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alaskan Survivalist

And it will get even safer under totalitarian rule.
Hopefully not in my lifetime, not here.

Video cameras everywhere,
That's how we got the Time Square footage of the terrorist
neighbors reporting neighbors, Someone saw something unusual and alerted the police. Thank God.
FEMA ready to step in. That's what we're paying them to do.
Very safe indeed. Could be so much worse and it has been.

AS a truck driver I was forced to take training under a program called HYWAY WATCH. I was given a few hours of training and an ID card to verify my idendity when I call in to report things I see in my truck to make sure it is legitimate. OBEY, you are being watched. They are getting thier ducks in a row. It is freedom and prosperity that is being outlawed. Stay scared, stay safe. I never let my guard down, no matter where I am.

---

What's wrong with reporting crime and abuse? What's wrong with the Neighborhood Watch or Amber Alert? We can hang together or we can hang alone. Doesn't mean we check our brains and cojones at the door and relinquish personal responsibility for our own safety.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BENESSE

What's wrong with reporting crime and abuse? What's wrong with the Neighborhood Watch or Amber Alert? We can hang together or we can hang alone. Doesn't mean we check our brains and cojones at the door and relinquish personal responsibility for our own safety.

---

Yes, it does. Win or loose I stand a chance against criminals not so with the government. I don't trust them with any power let alone absolute power. I like the old westerns where each man had to have his own code and stand up for it himself.

Ah, but westerns, like most movies, are just make believe. If everyone has their own code....don't we call them......criminals? That's sort of why we have one set of codes called laws. And who is this government you refer to? The post office? The county extension service? The Forest service? The CIA? The government encompasses a lot of folks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alaskan Survivalist

And it will get even safer under totalitarian rule. Video cameras everywhere, neighbors reporting neighbors, FEMA ready to step in. Very safe indeed. AS a truck driver I was forced to take training under a program called HYWAY WATCH. I was given a few hours of training and an ID card to verify my idendity when I call in to report things I see in my truck to make sure it is legitimate. OBEY, you are being watched. They are getting thier ducks in a row. It is freedom and prosperity that is being outlawed. Stay scared, stay safe.

---

US is much a totalitarian state already and propaganda plays a big part in making all citizens afraid, its all about fear and control similar laws are passing everyday in the EU council since the Lisbon treaty has been signed and will only get worse from here on out i guess...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alaskan Survivalist

Of all the threads I posted THIS is the one you choose to resurect? The whole discussion was off topic because they did not get the basic premise...

---

Ye i got that and i missed it also, i have no idea of a point in human history that would be good and balanced to stay in/live in image of...now that we have a lot of stuff despite the bad use we give it it will be impossible for most of us to forget\leave this life of modern society, most will fight to protect the stupid **** we already have or die trying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alaskan Survivalist

I saw a statistic that said 75 percent of the world population live like that now. The economy is raising that percentage each day. An adjustment is coming and my question is at what level do you think it will balance out. I doubt many honestly think things will improve or even maintain the status quo.

---

Ye most people live like **** there is no way to deny that we are the lucky bastards, end of the day, most of us never had to steal or kill for a mouthful of food and things like that, and worst, if we did we would not get our hands cut off or something...

Farming created free time. Not for the people who worked the farm. But, for the people that ran the farm. They developed communities and philosophy. Towns, cities, kingdoms and countries.

There are people who have the desire and some say the means to reduce the population. They of course want to pick who gets to live or breed and it probably ain't you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones

We are a part of earth and natural as any other animal. We build elaborate lives and put on flashy displays to attract a mate. We try to leverage our environment to ensure we have easy access to as many resources in our area with the least amount of competition. We mate, raise our kids and die.

If left alone every imbalance will eventually be rebalanced. It is part of the process that certain species go extinct. Survival of the fittest. Out with the old and in with the new. That's the way they teach it.

When other populations of animals exceed the optimal population densities there are consequences. Increased competition for resources cause more violent conflict and stress. This decreases the animals ability to fight of disease. Disease is more easily spread through dense populations. Poor resources lead to malnutrition.

Mother Earth allows it to swing out of balance and then back in. That's why earth wobbles when she spins! :tongue_smilie:

In the end it will be the way it will be and if it ain't, I have you a shiny nickel says the end is nigh. :innocent:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rick

Ah, but westerns, like most movies, are just make believe. If everyone has their own code....don't we call them......criminals?

Lucky for me more than half my code conforms to current regulation.

That's sort of why we have one set of codes called laws. And who is this government you refer to? The post office? The county extension service? The Forest service? The CIA? The government encompasses a lot of folks.

All of them including the local volunteer fire department.

---

When you are out in the woods do you go back to town to get somebody to handle your problems or do you bury them on the spot?

Hmm. I don't have problems in the woods. I guess if I did I'd handle it then call it in or go back to town to report it. I wouldn't bury it. I might want to camp there some time. How many problems have you buried?:eek:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alaskan Survivalist

When you are out in the woods do you go back to town to get somebody to handle your problems or do you bury them on the spot?

---

flee is an option the law will be useless in the woods no? if my life was in danger i would probably bury it also if i had no other choice... i have been thinking about this many times in the past year, i hope it never comes to that....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blasfemo

flee is an option the law will be useless in the woods no? if my life was in danger i would probably bury it also if i had no other choice... i have been thinking about this many times in the past year, i hope it never comes to that....

---

Fleeing is and option I hadn't thought about. I guess they could try. Unless you can't tell I'm being silly but someday we will be making a choice between freedom and obeying the law.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alaskan Survivalist

Fleeing is and option I hadn't thought about. I guess they could try.

---

- AHAHAHAHAH lovely!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alaskan Survivalist

Unless you can't tell I'm being silly ....

---

Nop i cant tell, english is not my language and i do have a hard time understanding sarcasm or funny expressions and quotes m8

Your English is a heck of a lot better than my Portuguese.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alaskan Survivalist

And it will get even safer under totalitarian rule. Video cameras everywhere, neighbors reporting neighbors, FEMA ready to step in. Very safe indeed. AS a truck driver I was forced to take training under a program called HYWAY WATCH. I was given a few hours of training and an ID card to verify my idendity when I call in to report things I see in my truck to make sure it is legitimate. OBEY, you are being watched. They are getting thier ducks in a row. It is freedom and prosperity that is being outlawed. Stay scared, stay safe.

---

Hmmm, maybe you ought to move to Alaska....oh, never mind! :blushing: I hear that Alaska is next on Obama's "hit list," they HATE Sarah Palin! They're even talking about passing a law that makes it a federal crime to not have door on an outhouse, so Sourdough's in trouble....:sneaky2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarge47

Hmmm, maybe you ought to move to Alaska....oh, never mind! :blushing: I hear that Alaska is next on Obama's "hit list," they HATE Sarah Palin! They're even talking about passing a law that makes it a federal crime to not have door on an outhouse, so Sourdough's in trouble....:sneaky2:

---

Theres no next to it. This administration is trying to shut down our state. I think he is trying to make Chicago the capital of the world. The rest of us can go to hell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rick

How many problems have you buried?:eek:

---

You really don't want to know that about me...more than my share

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Batch

.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones

We are a part of earth and natural as any other animal. ...

---

Ya, the parasitic part.

I remember a few old timers from my youth that were of the WW I era and the stories they told of how things were better and how they got screwd up. Then my parents generation say we should have never done this or done that and you now hear us saying how more things are going bad to the next genearation and yet we keep pressing forward screwing up more when we should look back to see what worked and what didn't. No time was perfect, It will never be a perfect world but can't we do better than this? I said that wrong. We have done better than this. we should not be looking for new ways to screw up and go back to what worked.

First my apologies to AS for reviving this thread..... However I saw a "Guest" reading it and my curiosity was piqued.

I don't really consider my self a "Doomer", however I do see civilization in serious trouble. As Batch mentioned Mother Nature tends to deal rather harshly with populations gone wild, and ALWAYS returns it to a state of Balance.... or gets rid of it entirely. There is no technology now, nor in the future that will allow us to survive off of nothing. If we continue at our present rate, there will be no arable land, there will be no resources to provide all the material for the Crafts, arts, and other things mentioned that are the benefits of "Civilization". There will also be no need for the improved medical care either as there is only one cure for starvation....food. So while some may say that it is selfish to wish for things long gone, I counter that by saying that it is selfish to care only about ourselves in the here and now. While we may reap the benefits of all the wonders of modern technology, there is only a finite amount of resources to produce those.

Some will say "Oh yeah we have TONS of resources, we'll NEVER run out of oil." I would say that yes while there is enough oil to use for a few more(or maybe many) generations, what percentage have we used and what is left? The same can be said of most materials we use... they are not replenish-able, even through recycling.... they are finite, not infinite. We are only fooling ourselves. Each time Aluminum is recycled a small portion is lost(even if only microscopically),so is paper, plastics, glass,etc.... No the only truly "Replenish-able resources we have are things that can be grown and reproduced.These then die and return things to the earth. It is the cycle of life, the way Nature intended for it to be. Yes we can take chemicals from the ground and improve the soil that way, but that source is also limited.

I agree with AS The Plains Indians and Native American Indians had a true Philosophy of what would befall all of us if we did not pay attention to the wisdom that they had learned.... the hard way... from "Boots"(Mocassins) in the field experience. These words are credited to Chief Seattle, Chief of the Suquamish Indians.....
http://www.barefootsworld.net/seattle.html

This are the words of Chief Seattle translated from what he really said...
http://www.halcyon.com/arborhts/chiefaudio5.mp3

Quote:

---

Only when the last tree has died and the last river been poisoned and the last fish been caught will we realise we cannot eat money. ~Cree Indian Proverb

---

Quote:

---

"Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children."

---

Quote:

---

Black Elk Oglala Sioux Holy Man
1863-1950
You have noticed that everything an Indian does is in a circle, and that is because the Power of the World always works in circles, and everything tries to be round..... The Sky is round, and I have heard that the earth is round like a ball, and so are all the stars. The wind, in its greatest power, whirls. Birds make their nest in circles, for theirs is the same religion as ours....
Even the seasons form a great circle in their changing, and always come back again to where they were. The life of a man is a circle from childhood to childhood, and so it is in everything where power moves.

---

What I fail to understand is how others cannot see that this is our true destiny,and that our true legacy is that todays "improvements" are the Death song of our future grandchildren.

Yes there are those "Smart" in science, but are they smart in life? In the Natural Order of things? Surely someone will say "Oh yes, we have botanists, and biologist who can tell you all of these things" Really? Then ask them what happens when the population becomes too dense, and can no longer support those life forms.

Yes there will be "Balance". However it is up to us to decide whether it is something we choose..... or something that is chosen for us. Just remember that when something is chosen for us (or forced), it is never easy, nor is it "Good" or comfortable.

To think otherwise is Arrogant in the extreme.

I am inclined to agree with AS. That the period of the Native American Indian was the pinnacle of "balance". Sure we may have increased life spans, but none of us live forever. "No one gets out of here alive"... No one. Are we so afraid of our own deaths that we would cheat our children and Grandchildren of their life?

Native American Indians had another saying that some think is a death wish or morbid. "Today is a good Day to Die." It means that my life has been a good one, that if I die today I have no regrets, that I have done all that I can..... for my generation and for those to come. That my death were it to come today, would also help insure that tomorrows generation would have a chance at their life. Am I so selfish that I would cheat my children or their children? I'm not, How about you? You say you would die to protect them, but by continuing on the road we are on, that saying is given the lie....prolonging our lives at the expense of theirs.

Enjoy your life, but don't cling to it. It will only be taken from you at some point anyways, no matter how tightly you grasp.

There are a few things in my signature (The "Indian 10 Commandments") that apply to this the way I see it, they are.....
Treat the Earth and all that dwell therein with respect, Work together for the benefit of all Mankind(including future generations), Do what you know to be right, Be truthful and honest at all times, Take full responsibility for your actions

Just something for all of us to think about....