Which do you prefer?

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06-11-2009, 08:58 PM
rat31465

Quote:

Originally Posted by tacticalguy

But, if you have bigger/harder hitting rounds you don't need the extra ammo.

Personally I dont believe that any standard pistol cartridge will provide one shot stopping power whether it be a small bore .357/9mm or a big bore .44/45 (Magnum cartridges not included here).
If you are commited to pulling the trigger on an assailant...you should be planning on shooting til they quit fighting back anyway and most of the people I know can and do shoot a 9mm better than the harder recoiling .45.

Statistically...Unless your comparing hardball ammo rounds the venerable .45 acp doesn't carry any better stopping power than the 9 mm does when high quality ammo is used in both.
If one of these cartridges really had a big advantage over the other one then we wouldn't have seen the introduction of the .40 or the .357 Sig or the
9X21.
This 9mm vs .45 arguement all began when the United States Military announced its intention to adopt a High Capacity 9mm service pistol.
Some of our Military Brass didn't like the idea that this contract would likely not be won by an American company and so began a propaganda campaign to try and skew political and public opinion, much like the fight to adopt the M-14 rifle instead of the AR-15.

While I am arguing the benefits of the 9mm...If you took away the benefits of high capacity and I were limited to say 10 round magazine capacity...then I would be throwing .451 dia, 230 gr slugs out the end of a 1911 Commander.
From the standpoint of a home defense firearm that is to also be used as a survival weapon in a SHTF scenario....I have to give the thumbs up to the 9mm round.
06-11-2009, 09:03 PM
Rick

That would be an 18 and that wasn't a choice. I thought about postiing half a vote. I voted for 9 and the would be 4.5. Pretty close, don't you think?
06-11-2009, 09:10 PM
Pal334

Fact of the matter is, when given a choice, by hook or by crook, professional military folks are going back to the 1911 due to the fact it always works and is a consistent one shot show stopper. If you could do an equipment check on Special forces units, and some of the airborne units as they enter the sandbox, I would guess that 30% or more have some how gotten their hands on a 1911 for their personal side arm.The choice for switching to the 9mm berreta 92F was based on the theory that it would be easier and more economical way to train the average troop in pistolmanship. The reality is with proper training, the average "snuffy" can be trained quite readily on the 1911. On paper there does not seem to be a real discrepancy but in the real world there is absolutely no comparison. And as to high capacity, it does seem to encourage "spray and pray" during an emergency. As a well known gun pundit, Mr Cooper once said "nobody has ever been killed by a loud noise".
06-11-2009, 10:46 PM
SARKY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pal334

Fact of the matter is, when given a choice, by hook or by crook, professional military folks are going back to the 1911 due to the fact it always works and is a consistent one shot show stopper. If you could do an equipment check on Special forces units, and some of the airborne units as they enter the sandbox, I would guess that 30% or more have some how gotten their hands on a 1911 for their personal side arm.The choice for switching to the 9mm berreta 92F was based on the theory that it would be easier and more economical way to train the average troop in pistolmanship. The reality is with proper training, the average "snuffy" can be trained quite readily on the 1911. On paper there does not seem to be a real discrepancy but in the real world there is absolutely no comparison. And as to high capacity, it does seem to encourage "spray and pray" during an emergency. As a well known gun pundit, Mr Cooper once said "nobody has ever been killed by a loud noise".

You are comparing apple to oranges! The military is limited to full metal jacketed "ball" ammo. We are not! I can use a high performance jacketed hollow point bullet that will give me the same dumping of energy on target that the .45 will. The nine will hold more ammo and is easier to shoot for most people. That being said, I do have a Beretta 92 and a para ordnance p-12 (3 rounds difference between the 2 and the para is smaller)
06-12-2009, 12:22 AM
kx250kev

My $.02...get both...eventually, but first buy the 9 mm for a SHTF weapon You can carry more 9mm ammo. Later you can pair it up with a 9mm carbine for the ultimate SHTF combo.
06-12-2009, 12:19 PM
oldsoldier

That's why crash said 100's and 1000's we've heard about your shootin' that's okay keep trying if you send enough ammo down range you'll eventually get lucky! ( just kidding but that one was to hard to resist
06-12-2009, 12:24 PM
erunkiswldrnssurvival

Quote:

Originally Posted by tacticalguy

What I want to know is which of these two very awesome calibers do you think is better? Hmmmm????

big gun ... toy gun... did you have to ask?
06-12-2009, 01:16 PM
Pal334

Quote:

Originally Posted by SARKY

You are comparing apple to oranges! The military is limited to full metal jacketed "ball" ammo. We are not! I can use a high performance jacketed hollow point bullet that will give me the same dumping of energy on target that the .45 will. The nine will hold more ammo and is easier to shoot for most people. That being said, I do have a Beretta 92 and a para ordnance p-12 (3 rounds difference between the 2 and the para is smaller)

Fresh fruits are healthy :) I am a simple guy, so I stay with the time proven way of doing things usually. You are correct if you get into the high peformance stuff, eventually it will out do the .45. Always has been difficult to beat the old hardball it always works.
06-12-2009, 02:27 PM
rat31465

Evidence doesn't back up the statements

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pal334

Fact of the matter is, when given a choice, by hook or by crook, professional military folks are going back to the 1911 due to the fact it always works and is a consistent one shot show stopper. If you could do an equipment check on Special forces units, and some of the airborne units as they enter the sandbox, I would guess that 30% or more have some how gotten their hands on a 1911 for their personal side arm.The choice for switching to the 9mm berreta 92F was based on the theory that it would be easier and more economical way to train the average troop in pistolmanship. The reality is with proper training, the average "snuffy" can be trained quite readily on the 1911. On paper there does not seem to be a real discrepancy but in the real world there is absolutely no comparison. And as to high capacity, it does seem to encourage "spray and pray" during an emergency. As a well known gun pundit, Mr Cooper once said "nobody has ever been killed by a loud noise".

Biggest problem that I see here is that the current trends and evidence available doesn't support these statements.

The 9mm was adopted by the United States in an attempt to standardize with U.N. NATO troops to make supplying troops easier...as well as allowing the soldier to carry more ammo for the same weight.

Here is some data from a poll on another forum that I found to be very interesting.
This Forum is compromised mainly of Professionals in Military and Law Enforcement.
The question in this poll asked.

If you were limited to one Autoloading Pistol Round?

cal % number of votes cast
.45………...34.58%......37
.40………….05.61%......06
9mm……....57.01%......61
.32 ACP.…..0.93%......01
22LR.........1.87%......02

This poll can be viewed at
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread....ght=spray+pray
06-12-2009, 04:33 PM
Pal334

Quote:

Originally Posted by rat31465

Biggest problem that I see here is that the current trends and evidence available doesn't support these statements.

The 9mm was adopted by the United States in an attempt to standardize with U.N. NATO troops to make supplying troops easier...as well as allowing the soldier to carry more ammo for the same weight.

Here is some data from a poll on another forum that I found to be very interesting.
This Forum is compromised mainly of Professionals in Military and Law Enforcement.
The question in this poll asked.

If you were limited to one Autoloading Pistol Round?

cal % number of votes cast
.45………...34.58%......37
.40………….05.61%......06
9mm……....57.01%......61
.32 ACP.…..0.93%......01
22LR.........1.87%......02

This poll can be viewed at
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread....ght=spray+pray

So be it then :) I have learned not to argue with poll results :) My input is based on personal observation, and peripheral participation in the weapon selection process (interviewee and tester). and as a "user" downrange.
06-12-2009, 04:36 PM
crashdive123

Quote:

and as a "user" downrange

Beats the heck out of being the reciever. If only we could find one that survived - now that might be a definitive answer.
06-12-2009, 04:52 PM
Pal334

Quote:

Originally Posted by crashdive123

Beats the heck out of being the reciever. If only we could find one that survived - now that might be a definitive answer.

You are correct being a down range "user" always appealed more to me than being a "reciever".
Unfortunately, contrary to other posts recently, there was never any intent to keep a miscreant around .One someone signals that they have hostile intent, there is only one true course of action. I guess this will remain one of histories greatest mysteries. Besides it will always be a source of lively opinion exchange.
06-12-2009, 08:32 PM
Rick

If I have a choice of wounding an intruder or killing him, dead, without life, for ever and ever. I know what I'll do.

"Well, officer, as I said on the forum MANY TIMES. I was only trying to wound him."

"But you unloaded a 13 round clip in him."

"Yeah. About that. I have this nervous twitch in my fingers."
06-13-2009, 09:59 AM
Ole WV Coot

I hate to show my age but.....since I carry a 45 Beretta anyone besides me remember the S&W Mod 60, 5 shot 38 that was very, very popular in the '60s if you went nite-nite in a hole in S.E. Asia? Sleeping with one in your hand was better than a teddy bear.
06-13-2009, 11:06 AM
Rick

I don't have the 60 but I do have the M&P model in .38. My uncle carried it in the 50's and 60's as a police officer in Salem, Or. That one gets TLC because it was his.
06-13-2009, 12:31 PM
rat31465

I don't own a model 60 either...but my Model 13 sure has given me comfort on more than one occasion.
06-13-2009, 01:11 PM
rat31465

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pal334

So be it then :) I have learned not to argue with poll results :) My input is based on personal observation, and peripheral participation in the weapon selection process (interviewee and tester). and as a "user" downrange.

Pal334,
I don't put a whole lot of stock in poll results either, and I respect your observations. (Please don't think that it was my intent to Bash you.)
I have a reputation around my circle of friends and family for being the devils advocate.

Does anyone else find it curious that in the poll results I posted, the 22 LR scored better than the .32 ACP?

And that .380 ACP didn't even receive a single vote?

I think that would be an interesting poll in its own rights.
06-13-2009, 01:12 PM
loki

Ruger SR9 17+1. Yup, that'll do it.
06-13-2009, 01:39 PM
Sourdough

Most people vote to reinforce the choice that they already made. Most people have "NO" first hand field experience with terminal ballistic performance, and choose based on some magazine article advise. Both cartridges are WONDERFUL, and you can bet your life on either, assuming proper bullet placement. To strongly support one over the other, indicates you would prefer to be shot by your second choice........I don't want too stop either one, even at 300 Yards.

I voted for the 9MM however not because I think it is more GOOODER, but because I own a S&W M-39, and own no .45 ACP's at this time.
06-13-2009, 01:53 PM
Pal334

Quote:

Originally Posted by rat31465

Pal334,
I don't put a whole lot of stock in poll results either, and I respect your observations. (Please don't think that it was my intent to Bash you.)
I have a reputation around my circle of friends and family for being the devils advocate.

Does anyone else find it curious that in the poll results I posted, the 22 LR scored better than the .32 ACP?

And that .380 ACP didn't even receive a single vote?

I think that would be an interesting poll in its own rights.

No offense taken. A bit of the devils advocating keeps us all honest :) I would not hesitate to use a 22lr as a backup. Due to it being inexpensive, can practice more. And fairly close up can have some really tight groups. If I recall correctly ,the 32 and 380 acp type cartridge were primarily developed and used by and for European police usage . And our American history of firearms early on was "bigger is better".

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