Measles Cases on the Rise

Like many Americans I am strongly opposed to violating peoples civil liberties by requiring them to be vaccinated (or use seat belts, airbags, helmets, allowing children to ride in the back of a pickup truck etc) but there are legal consequences for not doing so if others are injured. Tort law not criminal. Vaccinations DO incur some risk but in most cases (all that I am aware of) the risk of not being vaccinated is higher for people whose health allows them to be vaccinated. This is known as "Risk Management", common sense and critical thinking.

In the specific case of Measles it is not highly virulent, but a highly airborne disease that can be spread by tiny droplets that remain suspended in the air for a long time. For example if a person sneezed in a room and then leaves, several minutes later another person can enter and catch the measles from these airborne droplets, even though he was never in the presence of the infected person or touched anything. Also the measles may not kill you but it can damage your brain and cause other damage or leave you susceptible to other infections that can kill you. Parents that must stay home to care for sick children often lose their ability to earn money and if the DNA of the strain of the measles or other virus can be traced back to the source a tort/legal case can be brought to sue for this lost income as well. All legal fees etc may be garnished from the accused wages until they are paid in full. I am not trying to scare you for fun, just make you aware of your rights and responsibilities and consequences. This is a free country, the decision is yours to make.

Edit: Note that Ebola is the opposite of Measles in two ways: highly virulent and not airborne therefore considered by many medical experts to be less of a risk if there was a vaccine for it. Because Ebola kills fast and does not spread as easily Ebola cannot become a widespread epidemic as quickly as Measles. In the long run measles will result in the direct or indirect death of more people than Ebola, but the use of vaccines can change all that.

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Originally Posted by 1stimestar

The measles vaccine is a live vaccine. So when you get it, guess what, you shed! So there fore, others can be infected by someone who has been vaccinated. If you want to discuss this or state your point of view, then that is fine. But TX it seems like you are purposefully posting inflammatory language and name calling. Dude, grow up.

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1stimestar, I didn't see where TX was name calling or posting inflammatory language. Did I miss something?

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Originally Posted by 1stimestar

But TX it seems like you are purposefully posting inflammatory language and name calling. Dude, grow up.

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I apologize for offending you. I did not call anyone names only that some behaviors are foolish or "stupid" like the fictitious character of Forrest Gump's Mama said. Personally some of the most wise and profound words I have ever heard have been from the so called "mentally disabled" and some of the most foolish ideas I have ever heard were from well educated people with many university degrees.

Thread drift here if you will indulge me: when I was younger and even more foolish I did not like the fact that motorcycle helmets restricted my vision and made my head much hotter. This made riding a small vehicle amongst much larger vehicles even more dangerous IMO. Therefore I would often not wear a helmet. Once a bumble bee hit my eyeball at 30 mph, painful but my eye recovered. A few years later I got stuck driving thru a sleet storm without sunglasses or a helmet and visor. That was painful. Finally I got a little wiser and became more consistent in wearing a full face helmet. But should insurance companies use Super PACs to lobby congress to require LEO to force people to use helmets, body armor, seat belts, not disable air bags? OR should they just be allowed to refuse to insure these people or pay claims on them if they have signed forms stating that they know that if they do not use safety features they will not be covered?

Similar thing with vaccines, if you send your kid to school, sports programs, amusement parks etc you are open to legal liabilities, and your health insurance may refuse to cover your claims. (unless you or your kids have health conditions that make it dangerous for them to receive the vaccine, obviously.)

There are legitimate, logical and legal problems with my arguments and I accept those this is NOT a simple issue(s).

Edit: I also had a few minor motorcycle accidents, busted up two fairings, got thrown thru them, ate some grass and gravel. Stopped buying new fairings, but really learned to value full face helmets, body armor. And especially looked out for folks in big vehicles; each time I was dodging people who "did not see me". Whatever.

The "R nought" or infection rating of a disease describes how many other people a single diseased person will infect. Measles has one of the highest R nought ratings. For every person that has measles they will infect between 12-18 additional people. Ebola, at the opposite end of the spectrum has an R nought of 1.5-2.5. The only defense against a fast spreading disease like measles is vaccination. Isn't it interesting that only 15 years ago not a single case of measles was reported to the CDC? Interesting that Mississippi, which has mandatory vaccination for children has the highest rate in the country.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/s...ate-heres-why/


Those who forget the past are doomed to relive it.

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Originally Posted by Rick

I saw on the news tonight that some pediatricians planned to refuse to treat kids that had not been vaccinated. Their claim is the risks to young babies are too great if an unvaccinated patient arrives with a preventable disease. If that happens they have to shut down their practice and quarantine everyone that was there at the time.

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Good point Rick that will probably become a nation wide trend, and hold up when challenged in court.

It reminds me of when my Primary Care Physician (PCP, Doctor) tried to impost a policy of sick patients with contagious illnesses siting on one side of the waiting room and "healthy" on the other side. As you can imagine this was a "total failure". He would have needed to hire an off duty LEO with pepper spray, stun gun, hand cuffs and temperature monitor device to enforce that rule, and the sick patient side would have needed to have its own air filtration and be completely sealed off. That never happened obviously.

Likewise if only a few pediatricians were willing to see unvaccinated children, how many parents would be willing to take their kids to see them especially during winter months when there are many cases of contagious viruses. Sounds like a fail to me. But I could be wrong.

From a "wilderness survival" stand point, I saw extremely primitive people in very remote parts of the world die from complications due to viruses of illness that could have been prevented with vaccines. Since "escape to the wilderness" is my last resort survival method vaccination are critical to my survival plans, but it is a free country everyone should be free to choose their own path.

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Originally Posted by TXyakr

(unless you or your kids have health conditions that make it dangerous for them to receive the vaccine, obviously.)

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I do have a child who had a bad vaccine reaction. So it really irks me when generalizations are made about us "non vaxxers" endangering the population. Sorry, my focus is on not doing further damage to my child. Call me selfish... There is a reason all states but one has an exemption form for attending schools etc.

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Originally Posted by TXyakr

Good point Rick that will probably become a nation wide trend, and hold up when challenged in court.

It reminds me of when my Primary Care Physician (PCP, Doctor) tried to impost a policy of sick patients with contagious illnesses siting on one side of the waiting room and "healthy" on the other side. As you can imagine this was a "total failure". He would have needed to hire an off duty LEO with pepper spray, stun gun, hand cuffs and temperature monitor device to enforce that rule, and the sick patient side would have needed to have its own air filtration and be completely sealed off. That never happened obviously.

Likewise if only a few pediatricians were willing to see unvaccinated children, how many parents would be willing to take their kids to see them especially during winter months when there are many cases of contagious viruses. Sounds like a fail to me. But I could be wrong.

From a "wilderness survival" stand point, I saw extremely primitive people in very remote parts of the world die from complications due to viruses of illness that could have been prevented with vaccines. Since "escape to the wilderness" is my last resort survival method vaccination are critical to my survival plans, but it is a free country everyone should be free to choose their own path.

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THIS would only be seen if those remotely living primitive either a) traveled to another , less remotely populated area that had a current or very recent outbreak of a disease they had never been around, OR b) others from less remotely populated areas visited them carrying diseases they never had need of a vaccination from.

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Originally Posted by Rick

While it is live it is attenuated. They alter the virus so it is less virulent and, therefore, not infectious. You can not infect someone else by receiving the vaccine. For those that want their children's immune system to learn from the disease there is no better way to do it than with a live attenuated virus. The MMR vacine is one such example. I had an MMR booster in 2007 with no fears of being around my grand children. No one contracted any of the diseases as a result.

http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/vacc...svaccines.aspx

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Pregnant women are advised to not feed or change a recently vaccinated infant/child who received an MMR or DTAP, because of the weakened (attenuated) virus. Less virulent does not mean it can not cause disease, it means it is less likely to, unless it mutates, or someone with a weakened immune system comes in contact. My nephew Josiah for example, can not be around his brother and sister if they receive a booster shot even, he has no immune system of his own.

I sometimes wonder whether we would have all this hullaballoo about vaccinations if that Wakefield bloke and his cronies hadn't gotten greedy and lied for money about the MMR vaccine.

Personally, I'm a big believer in vaccines. No doubt like a few others here, I am old enough to have been around before some vaccines and have seen what some of these childhood diseases can do. So from personal experience I know how horrid the diseases are and I wouldn't wish any of them on any child of mine when I can prevent it with a simple vaccination.

I remember Measles tore through my Primary School in 1960's. The school pretty much closed. When we returned, it was without one classmate. I remember his name to this day, he had a heart condition, and another child had hearing aids fitted when she eventually returned to school. She was older than me though and I don't remember her name. Out of a roster of 100 or so children very few avoided the disease. I was not one of those lucky few.

There will always be exceptions to every rule and, hopefully, that's understood. For those with sensitivities to medicines of any kind it would be ill advised to continue those treatments. However, for the general public, which is what the discussion is in the articles, vaccination remains a viable and practical way to avoid contagion. I don't believe anyone here would suggest that those who are allergic to, pregnant or with compromised immune systems receive the MMR vaccine without proper guidance from their health care professional. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be aware of current disease trends and take appropriate precautions to avoid infection.

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Originally Posted by Winnie

I sometimes wonder whether we would have all this hullaballoo about vaccinations if that Wakefield bloke and his cronies hadn't gotten greedy and lied for money about the MMR vaccine.

Personally, I'm a big believer in vaccines. No doubt like a few others here, I am old enough to have been around before some vaccines and have seen what some of these childhood diseases can do. So from personal experience I know how horrid the diseases are and I wouldn't wish any of them on any child of mine when I can prevent it with a simple vaccination.

I remember Measles tore through my Primary School in 1960's. The school pretty much closed. When we returned, it was without one classmate. I remember his name to this day, he had a heart condition, and another child had hearing aids fitted when she eventually returned to school. She was older than me though and I don't remember her name. Out of a roster of 100 or so children very few avoided the disease. I was not one of those lucky few.

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I had chicken pox one week, and measles the next. Comes from having cousins attending several different school systems, back then families went to visit each other every weekend, and shared everything that went around. We were vaccinated, way fewer vaccines back then. Now days you can get vaccines for nearly everything. Nothing will ever be fool proof if nature has it's way. Nearly lost my daughter to meningitis just after she turned two, now, there is a vaccine against that bacteria now. Vaccine also used to only be against viruses, but times have changed. I believe that a virus or bacteria in my part of the world is inherently different, even if only minutely, than the similar virus or bacteria in another part of the world. Working in immunology is what I wanted to do when I first began taking classes, however I really do like immunohematology (blood banking).

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Originally Posted by Winnie

I sometimes wonder whether we would have all this hullaballoo about vaccinations if that Wakefield bloke and his cronies hadn't gotten greedy and lied for money about the MMR vaccine.

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You are exactly correct that is where this recent rash of irrational fear began back in 1998. Here is a review of one of the best books on it that I have read there may be others:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/29/he...uger.html?_r=0

http://sethmnookin.com/the-panic-virus/

The basic principle is that we as rational scientifically educated humans need to remember is often referred to as a "herd" mentality in a very positive way. That is those that can receive vaccinations with no serious risk do so that all those who cannot for various health reasons and young age or old age etc are protected. I.e. the herd of stronger members protects the weaker. This seems very simple to me.

About primitive people: Even 50-70 years ago when my father and his colleagues explore extremely remote parts of the Amazon and SE Asian jungles absolutely NO people had not been indirectly exposed to westerners. Absolutely NONE NONE!!! Absolutely NONE! Now he was the first "white" European man some had ever seen but the viruses of Europeans had proceeded him there. Don't take my word for it do your own research this has been EXTREMELY well documented for decades!
Read this and many other technical publications on the topic:
http://sa.indiaenvironmentportal.org...20part%201.pdf
http://www.who.int/social_determinan...montenegro.pdf
No group of people lives in total clinical isolation today. Not the Amish who have spread much of the measles virus recently, or even people in remote parts of the Congo isolated for decades due to ethnic conflicts.

Latin America first 100 years after Europeans discovered Americas:
"Indigenous peoples faced an even greater threat than armed invasion—disease. Within 100 years, the estimated total Indigenous populations dropped from up to 150 million (before European invasion in 1492) to 11 million. This massive demographic collapse was mainly due to foreign bacterial and viral diseases introduced by Europeans. Smallpox and measles were among the most deadly diseases introduced, but influenza, yellow fever, and typhus also arrived during this time.28 The effect of these diseases was enormous. Denevan estimates that, in many regions, particularly the tropical lowlands, populations fell by 90% or more in the first century after contact."

Source of MMR Panic:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/traci...cine-movement/

SETH MNOOKIN, Author of “The Panic Virus” gives a brief overview of his book in this video interview.

FYI: measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine

http://youtu.be/ImF9BDC30lY

Wakefield was shown by his Professional Medical Peers to have committed fraud in his 1998 Lancet article which was then retracted. These foolish ideas were then given new life by some lady who modeled nude and has no formal scientific training. Wakefield's license to practice medicine was revoked. So today about 110 nations in the world have higher vaccine rates than the USA (Mississippi has the highest in USA, only exemption is for health) because of a fraudulent ex Doctor in the UK and a nude model who wrote a couple books on topics she has no scientific qualifications on. OH well, thus my point is: no wonder USA falls behind others in standardized STEM tests. We are a scientifically clueless nation, possibly headed for a new "dark ages" with many widespread plagues. Hopefully not.

"Non vaxxers" wouldn't be a category i'd lump someone in with who's child actually had a bad reaction to a vaccine. That term is reserved for anti GMO March against Monsanto idiots that would rather let their kids die and believe drinking magic crystal water is the key to immortality. Anti GMO/vaccines/magic pseudoscience "woo" seems to be the new trend, rather than science with, you know, evidence, and repeatable experiments.

I've seen some stupidity but the people that post anti GMO/ vaccine garbage takes the cake. I've yet to see one back up anything with evidence or a reputable source. It always ends in getting defense and crying before storming off.

https://www.facebook.com/welovegv

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/...psqjvcpp0f.jpg

I agree that some reasonable percentage of people (especially children) who have bad and even life threatening reactions to certain or all vaccines should have the "herd" there to protect them but "hiding in the herd" for philosophical reasons is IMO irresponsible.

This article does NOT tell the whole story, a 95 or 99% immunisation rate is not really necessary, or vaccinating very young babies is not either, I don't know what China's problems are but their overall rate of infection is still lower than ours and they have many more immigrants from Philippines and other SE Asian countries and Chinese travel there more than we do.

113 countries have higher measles immunization rates than the U.S. for 1-year-olds (Washington Post):
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...r-1-year-olds/

This is a more academic and comprehensive article:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4007128/

There is also a lot of good information at WHO but remember that China has a population almost 4 times the size of the USA so even if their immunization rate is 98% or whatever and they start at a younger age (that concerns me), this does not mean that more cases there is a bigger problem.

http://www.who.int/immunization/diseases/measles/en/

Sorry to be thread drifting here, MODs are welcome to delete this post if they wish to.

But by way of comparison I personally believe it should never be a legal requirement that parents vaccinate their children regardless of philosophical and religious view in the USA and all its states as they are required to do in China. (health exemption MUST always be given!) But there are other means of achieving about a 90% immunization rate in the USA which should be effective IF the vaccine is also safe and effective.

So here is a rather off topic and strange example: Contrary to popular belief "no [civil] laws ban women from driving in Saudi Arabia, authorities do not issue them licenses and ultra-conservative Saudi clerics have issued religious edicts against it." Some women with excellent connections in Saudi Arabia actually do have driver licenses and do occasionally drive cars (and even fighter aircraft) but do so very discretely.

http://saudiwomendriving.blogspot.com

I could tell you a story that would go way off topic about friend driving home from party in S.A. way drunk who had their American wife drive then switched over when a Saudi Police pulled them over. The officer was WAY angry because he thought a woman was driving, and oblivious that the man was breaking sharia law by being totally intoxicated. This seems insane to us westerners but makes perfect sense to them. Different viewpoint, NOT WRONG!

Edit: Sorry I lost your again Hunter63, you probably hate jury duty. So legally enforcing immunization compliance for everything except health exemptions as in the State of Mississippi is not necessary because: When children are bared from extracurricular activities (sports, music, drama, ROTC etc), Medical providers refuse to serve them, public places like restaurants, churches and gyms bar them, people sue them for financial damages, workplaces deny their parents work, and health insurance companies refuse them coverage all because they have philosophical and religious (not health) reasons to not receive vaccinations then the compliance rate should increase to about 90% or higher. Do you see the correlation now? No reason for the USA to follow the policies of China, strange as it is Saudi Arabia's methods are actually more appropriate. Did I lose you again Hunter63? Crazy confusing lawyer stuff.

So,..... Like what the price of tea in China these days......?

600 years ago (and thousands of years prior), the greatest minds in the world (govt. and scientific) knew the world was flat

~40 years ago, the greatest minds of the world claimed global warming would flood the planet by the year 2000

Every few years a study comes out proving coffee is good for you or coffee is bad for you. The same is true for salt, wine, beer, alcoholic beverages, carb diets, protein diets, just about every food group.

Every few years we see a story stating the benefits and or harm, caused by too much or too little exercise.

My point is simple, we cant trust the govt studies and certainly cant trust what the govt is putting in needles and demanding we put in our bodies.

If you choose to vax your kids, thats fine, but dont push your beliefs on me and my family. After all, MY kids are the ones at risk, not yours, since they did not get the vax, right? Your kids are safe since the govt studies say they must be safe because they got the shots...

Full disclosure, I dont have kids but if I did these are my beliefs.

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Originally Posted by Grizz123

If you choose to vax your kids, thats fine, but dont push your beliefs on me and my family. After all, MY kids are the ones at risk, not yours, since they did not get the vax, right? Your kids are safe since the govt studies say they must be safe because they got the shots...

Full disclosure, I dont have kids but if I did these are my beliefs.

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I agree with you Grizz, no one, especially not the Government, should force you or anyone to vaccinate their children or themselves but the so called "Herd effect" protects those who cannot be "vaxxed" for actual health reasons.

Here is an article that explains it for those who successfully passed Middle School:
http://science.howstuffworks.com/env...-immunity1.htm

Here is an article with a more comprehensive explanation for those with one or more university degrees:
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs...48.2011.582247

Please read the article that suits you at your leisure. Thank you.

BTW someone might want to pass this info on to Gov. "Chris" Christie he seems to be a little confused by the issue recently. I respect the guy he is cool but, REALLY? read some abstracts between bites now and then.

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Originally Posted by Grizz

MY kids are the ones at risk, not yours

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Actually, that's not quite true. The first dose is between 12-15 months on MMR. Hopefully, children younger than 12 months still have immunity from the mother if she was vaccinated. But then again, maybe not. So your decision can have a dramatic affect on others. Consider this. If your child does come down with measles, mumps, rubella or any of the other illnesses vaccines are available for and you take that child to a doctor's office you have just shut down the office. Everyone that is in the office must be monitored for signs of the disease.

You may not trust the government but they are responsible for the eradication of small pox and measles in this country as well as polio and a host of other diseases through vaccinations. That's simply a fact that can't be disputed.

Whether you choose to vaccinate your kids or not is entirely up to you but don't assume your decision won't or can't affect others.