45.70 or 30/40Krag??

I'm building a survival long arm for me and I have a question... I have a choice between 2 calibers for a rifle insert and I have no experience with one of them. One is a 30/40 Krag and the other is a 45/70. I've owned a couple of 45/70's over the years, but I never got the chance to take any game with them. I have no experience with the 30/40 Krag.
I'm trying to extend the range of my 12ga to possibly take larger game (caribou or possibly moose) out to 200yards. Which would you choose and why?
I'm also trying to consider the economy of the round ie. how much does it cost in materials to reload each shot? If the 30/40Krag uses standard .30cal projectiles and will be enough to down the animal with proper shot placement, I may lean that way as it will be more economical in the long term.

These are the only two choices I have for this project, so please keep the comments relevant.

Thanks,

Mountaintrekker

My experience with the two is similar to yours. I'm sure some of your seasoned gun enthusiasts will be able to make a recommendation for you.

In my opinion you will not be increasing your range over good 12 ga slugs by using either round in a shotgun through an insert. You do not have the accuracy potential to harness the power of either cartridge with that combination. I would think that putting sights on a slug shooting 12ga would be just as successful.

The 30-40 Kraig is little better than a 30-30 in performance. I would not want it for dangerous game, to include anything that might step on me trying to get away.

Reloading cost will be dependent on the quality of bullets you choose. .308 slugs are as cheap as $.20 cents each or as expensive as $1 each. .45 slugs are comparible in price.

To me, the value of an adapter is for using ammo that would not be usable if the insert were not present. This implies that it is a popular cartridge and will be present when other rounds are scarce. It also implies there will be a population to trade or scrounge from. An example is that I have a .308 collar for use in my 30-06. I also have a .32 S&W adapter for the same gun. The .32 adapter allows me to use any .32 pistol round I might find in some WW2 vet's attic souvioner trunk. I do not think I would choose an insert for a caliber that was not widely available in my area.

If you want to increase you range, get a rifled barrel with a scope mount and use 50 caliber sabots.

Some good replies coming in... I'm going to use this shotgun which is a double barrel so no rifle slug barrel and scope options. I'm trying to build this as a "one gun" for emergency foraging with the ability to take many different types of game with minimal monkeying around. I was thinking the 18" inserts would give me some wide potential, but I have never used them before.


Mountaintrekker

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mountaintrekker

Some good replies coming in... I'm going to use this shotgun which is a double barrel so no rifle slug barrel and scope options. I'm trying to build this as a "one gun" for emergency foraging with the ability to take many different types of game with minimal monkeying around. I was thinking the 18" inserts would give me some wide potential, but I have never used them before.


Mountaintrekker

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This is definitely information that is needed. I started a similar project but when I got it home, it shot so well as is that I left it. I now have a 20g. that I am working on.

What double are you starting with? Also how are you planning to regulate it? Depending on what you have to start with there is another option.

If you have a decent gunsmith around, it may be worthwhile to have the barrels regulated as Klickitat mentioned. Then have some simple sights put on it. Then you have a pretty impressive package for most things. I have one being done in upstate NY by a fella. He is doing it in his spare time, will cost about 1-200 dollars (sight included) since he is taking the barrels apart and putting them back together so that they will both shoot to point of aim at approx 75yards (hopefully). Is a work in progress

I'll have to check out some of the smiths around here, most of them have a reputation for shoddy work, high prices and epic wait times.
I'm planning on using a matte nickle Stoger coach gun with double triggers and extractors not ejectors. It should keep the price down a bit and also have the corrosion resistance I'm looking for. I was interested in their Condor Outback but then I found out it has an inertia trigger system which is a definate no for me. I need to be able to select which barrel will fire and do it as quickly as possible. I have no idea what I'll bump into that needs to be put in the pot or put down to keep me from being stomped into pudding, plus I may fool around with the .22LR insert and see what I can do with that. The inertia trigger would not reset and allow a followup shot if I used that or a really light 12ga round like those Aguila mini shotshells.
For other readers I'll explain a little bit what I am doing...
I need a single firearm that is capable of foraging for a wide variety of game here in AK yet has the capability of bear defense and killing small game without vaporizing the little guys. I need it to be corrosion resistant as I live by the sea and it needs to be somewhat inexpensive. I have been round and round with various .22's and single rifles or shotguns, combination guns and they all fall short in one catagory or another. I think this has all of the features I'm looking for and I get the option of a followup shot which is very important when putting food in your belly or stopping a large charging animal.


Mountaintrekker

I have experience with but rounds. Of the two, for Alaska and taking big game, the 45-70 has way more knock down power. In a modern firearm, the 45-70 can be loaded to some impressive energy levels, someting you can't do with the 30-40 Krag

Here are a couple things you can look at doing.

#1 You can have replaceable chokes put in and then insert rifled chokes in and make what they call a paradox. If you install a rear 3 blade flip up express sight and a front blade you can use the first blade for shotgunning and then you can cut the two flip up blades to match the point of aim on the right and left barrels. This is not ideal but works effectively.

#2 If you are going to do inserts you do not want the barrel full diameter all the way down your shotgun barrel. The weight is way too heavy. The trick is to cut to the chamber and then have the rest of the barrel as thin as you can while still being safe. Then at the muzzle you will need to make a disc. This disc will fit over the rifle barrel and snug into the shotgun barrel. The hole in the center of the disc for the rifle barrel is slightly off center. You will need three set screws coming in from the edge of the disc to lock the position on the disc onto the rifle barrel.

Regulate the barrel you loosen up the set screws and rotate the disc, lock it back down and insert it back into the shotgun. repeat until you have it hitting where you want. When it is set, you need to use blue lock tite to keep it secure.

On my current project I am having rifled chokes put in. I picked up a Steven's 311 in 20 g. I will have the barrels cut back to 24" install express sights and have rifled chokes installed. If my gunsmith thinks it will handle it then I will have the chambers reamed out for the Hastings 3 1/2" loads.

BTW, I am also looking for a 28g. to build a double 30-30 insert gun and a 410 to build a double .22 mag insert gun with.

You guys are going to a whole lot of expense and trouble for results that I fear will never reach full potential.

You will not find a "gunsmith" capable of regulating double tubes outside the Wesly Richards factory. If they could do that work they would not be in Podunk fixing Marlin #60s and worn out Rugers. Even some of the double rifle manufacturers do not regulate their tubes, but use the two sight option already noted. The guns still sell for $1,000.

If I were going the insert route it would be a rifle tube on one side and smoothbore on the other. Regulate the insert to the bead and use a flip up sight.

I am beginning to feel fortunate that I do not need such a beast. I would feel well equipped with a slug for emergency or big game use in one tube and an ounce of #6 in the other tube.

kryatshooter: "You will not find a "gunsmith" capable of regulating double tubes outside the Wesly Richards factory."

See post 7. The fellow I am dealing with has to my knowledge already done at least 4 shotguns (they belong to my family members). Granted, he is not a full time "smithy" but his work is good and relatively inexpensive. Being able to plunk 12 guage slugs from both barrels at around 75 yards is good enough for me. It certainly is not MOA weapon, but is well worth the additional 1-200 dollars. I would suggest if a good smith is not available, see if a machine shop would be willing to try. IMO is a great way to make an inexpensive weapon into something a bit better

Pal, Your man is working for free!

Around here a good blue job goes for $100.

The sights would run $50.

There is no way I would unsolder a set of tubes, test fire them over and over soldering as I go, then refinishing the barrels and installing sights for $200.

Mountaintrekker, here is a thread where I posted some pictures of mine. BTW I can shoot 6 composite shots using both barrels and at 100 yards easily keep them all inside of 4"

This is very much a shared interest of mine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kyratshooter

Pal, Your man is working for free!

Around here a good blue job goes for $100.

The sights would run $50.

There is no way I would unsolder a set of tubes, test fire them over and over soldering as I go, then refinishing the barrels and installing sights for $200.

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All parts I buy and provide seperately. And you are right, a "pro" would have to charge much more. This fella is an old timer doing it more as a hobby since he is semi retired. He has had it for almost a year now, you don't dare go to him if you are in a hurry. He works it in between fishing, hunting and vacations :). My family that has had it done actually have to participate (they are local to him), since he is anxious to pass on his skills. I am hoping he is still working when I move up there, there is lots to learn from him. When he gets it done, I am going to have it parkerized, or maybe he knows and will teach me how.

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