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View Full Version : Teamsters Union vs. Goldman Sachs "Now we rock & Roll"


Sourdough
12-17-2009, 05:17 PM
And so it starts. I have been waiting for this next development, When the Unions wake up and say, Wall Street You stole our Pension money, and stuck us with snake oil (Derivatives). I appears Jimmy Hoffa, Teamsters President just wrote a letter to Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein.

Soon Baby boomer's will wake up and realize, someone stole a large chunk of their pension. And if you young workers said well serves them right, Guess what, They will be force to keep their job for another 25 years, not much advancement for you in that. Now where is your pitch fork.
Sourdough
12-18-2009, 02:09 PM
Well, be happy that you are NOT one of the 40,000 YRC Trucking employees, and lets hope they don't truck anything that effects your life, or that your pension fund is not holding YRC Bonds. Wall St. vs. Teamsters.......someone is going to get hammered:smash::smash::smash: (Que....'On the Waterfront" STELLA)
crashdive123
12-18-2009, 02:14 PM
Soooooooo - I guess what you are saying is that - Monday should be interesting.
Sourdough
12-18-2009, 02:20 PM
Soooooooo - I guess what you are saying is that - Monday should be interesting.

No, they have till Dec. 31'st
Winnie
12-18-2009, 03:30 PM
If a strike is iminent here employers just bring in Eastern European temporary workers. Presto no strike or no jobs.

Edit to add, Unions have no teeth over here anymore.
Sourdough
12-18-2009, 04:31 PM
If a strike is iminent here employers just bring in Eastern European temporary workers. Presto no strike or no jobs.

Edit to add, Unions have no teeth over here anymore.


We are talking Bankruptcy.......Liquidation, of the largest trucker.
Rick
12-18-2009, 04:42 PM
I would point out that a bankruptcy filing doesn't necessarily mean liquidation. And in the case of YRC that probably wouldn't happen. Conway or even Schneider would be in the running to purchase the company. Even if it did result in liquidation, you would expect same to at least acquire the fleet and that would mean the jobs would have to transition. One would hope they would work for YRC one day and Conway the next. Very similar situation with Frontier Airlines when Republic wound up buying them.

I don't think derivatives were the cause of this fiasco. The fact they've lost nearly $2 billion in the last year + has been their siren song.

I'm not even certain Goldman-Sachs could honestly be blamed other than they are sort of circling like a buzzard over YRCs carcass. There's money to be made even in a failing business.
rebel
12-18-2009, 05:00 PM
I would point out that a bankruptcy filing doesn't necessarily mean liquidation. And in the case of YRC that probably wouldn't happen. Conway or even Schneider would be in the running to purchase the company. Even if it did result in liquidation, you would expect same to at least acquire the fleet and that would mean the jobs would have to transition. One would hope they would work for YRC one day and Conway the next. Very similar situation with Frontier Airlines when Republic wound up buying them.

I don't think derivatives were the cause of this fiasco. The fact they've lost nearly $2 billion in the last year + has been their siren song.

I'm not even certain Goldman-Sachs could honestly be blamed other than they are sort of circling like a buzzard over YRCs carcass. There's money to be made even in a failing business.

There's truth in your words however, what's not being said is that the workers suffer from lower pay and harder work rules. The workers don't always have a choice. It's hard to go backwards and it makes similar businesses have to follow suit to be competitive. You can say that the pendulum swings for the middle but, how would you feel if your retirement was revoked and your choice is: start working for half of what your making now in retirement or nothing.
BENESSE
12-18-2009, 06:22 PM
No good movies on TV, Sourdough?
2dumb2kwit
12-18-2009, 06:25 PM
No good movies on TV, Sourdough?

LOL...Hmmmmm....over there, it's around lunch time. When does Oprah come on???:blushing:
Pal334
12-18-2009, 06:53 PM
Listen to this man, a great view on the current problems

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeBEvvbr1s4&feature=related
BENESSE
12-18-2009, 07:17 PM
Listen to this man, a great view on the current problems

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeBEvvbr1s4&feature=related

He is right.
We gotta chill a little more.
Rick
12-18-2009, 09:24 PM
There's truth in your words however, what's not being said is that the workers suffer from lower pay and harder work rules.

That's generally how it works. Once a company is bought through Chapter 7 there is no more contract (if there was one) so the new company is free to negotiate a new contract.


The workers don't always have a choice.

Workers rarely, if ever, have a choice. It's sort of the nature of the business. As long as you work for someone else you will be at their mercy, within legal parameters of course.


It's hard to go backwards and it makes similar businesses have to follow suit to be competitive.

Very true. Especially in the case of a manufacturing concern where suppliers may be forced into a price reduction if the new company is large enough to force it.


You can say that the pendulum swings for the middle

I didn't say that. I would only say that when discussing safety. Then it's an all too true statement.



How would you feel if your retirement was revoked and your choice is: start working for half of what your making now in retirement or nothing.

Having gone through many union layoffs I completely understand the bumping process and what happens when you are forced to take a job for less pay. Sometimes a lot less pay. Been there done that, as they say. As to the retirement, it won't be revoked because of a Chapter 7 filing. The Pension Guarantee Corporation was created in 1974 to ensure retirement benefits would not be lost. You may well draw less under the plan if your original plan was in excess of the statutory limits but you will still draw your benefits.

Having said that, you have no guarantee that your company will continue paying into a retirement plan if it doesn't file. The company I worked for stopped all management pensions two years after I retired. One more reason I was glad I took a lump sum.


Specific to YRC, my dad drove for them for 8 or 10 years at the end of his career. He had 32 years driving if I remember correctly. YRC drove only new vehicles. They also had an exceptional maintenance program on the tractors. Every time a driver pulled in on the lot after a trip they would toss absorb under the tractor. If it leaked it was pulled off the line and fixed. If you've ever driven a tractor/trailer then you know new equipment is like dying and going to heaven. However, it costs a lot of money to do that. I suspect, although I don't know, that they maintained that same policy for too long into the down turn and that, coupled with lost revenue because of decreased shipping finally took its toll.
Canadian-guerilla
12-19-2009, 08:02 AM
how much of America's food is trucked in by the Teamsters ?

could America survive a 2-4 day delay in food deliveries ?

and the possible food-buying panic ?

http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/06.09/images/empty-shelves.jpg
crashdive123
12-19-2009, 09:26 AM
I believe that uniions are losing the influence they once had. While a full blown strike will most assuradly cause disruptions, with the current economic situation there will be plenty of non-union drivers to fill much of the void. I don't know what percentage of the rigs on the road are being driven by union truckers, but there are quite a few that are not unionized.
Rick
12-19-2009, 11:31 AM
Not nearly as many Teamsters out there today but your point is well taken. Hoffa is trying very hard to get the bond holders to accept the swap to keep his members employed. I don't think it's an altruistic move on his part either. The loss of the largest union trucking firm would be a blow to the Teamsters as well.
Sourdough
12-19-2009, 01:48 PM
Hoffa is trying very hard to get the bond holders to accept the swap to keep his members employed.


Where Goldman Sachs comes into being a factor is that the Bond Holders have no motivation. WHY, Because Goldman Sachs sold the bond holders insurance (a derivitive) covering the risk of default. Then they sold the other side of the risk, to hedge their exposure.
Rick
12-19-2009, 01:57 PM
You might be right. I've yet to read a credible report on how GS intends to accomplish it. They seem to be pretty mum on the subject. I'd be really surprised if it turns out to be derivative based since so many got burned in the earlier round. But folks seem to have a really hard time understanding the role common sense plays. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

I suppose if I were a corporate bold holder and I agreed to a default swap with YRC I'd be more inclined to use the 30% they are asking for as a tax write off from operating losses. Uncle Sam just loves to hand out money like that.
Sourdough
12-19-2009, 02:08 PM
www.bloomberg.com In their search box type word: "Hoffa" and hit "News" button, then read second article.
Rick
12-19-2009, 05:01 PM
Is this it?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=ayAIW3WqM.3w

If it is, it still doesn't say how GS plans to engineer the swaps only that derivatives were one source in the past. I'll go on record as saying I don't like credit default swaps. I think it's little more than unregulated insurance. Someone came up with that name to circumvent all the financial requirements associated with issuing insurance. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
rebel
12-19-2009, 06:05 PM
Rick,
Thanks for the responses. I dis-like reneges in cards, companies and government promises and I hope I wasn't being too harsh.
Rick
12-19-2009, 06:21 PM
Not at all. I enjoy the discussion very much. Finance, in my mind, is an integral part of the over all disaster planning model. Money, in the form of fiat or precious metals as well as barter items, should be just as import as what goes into the BOB. In some cases much more important. The more discussion the more folks get to see what options are available and can then chose whatever is right for them. You offered up good insight and honest questions. Nothing wrong with that at all.
Sourdough
12-20-2009, 01:57 PM
Stony, I think your post is in poor taste and request you delete it.
Rick
12-20-2009, 02:31 PM
I removed it.
Ole WV Coot
12-20-2009, 03:11 PM
I worked union for 32yrs. Except for Uncle Sam that is and they sure don't have the power now. I didn't take their retirement so that's one thing I did right. We have a special metals plant in Huntington and changed hands a few times with retirees losing benefits & cuts in pensions. The UAW did well, too well for their members, think that helped sink the auto industry, personal opinion. When my union lost a grievance against forced overtime I could see it was time to hang it up. I took my retirement plus bonus in my hand and moved out of Dodge in '96 and ain't had a regret yet. My son is in management and changes jobs on occasion so I really don't have a dog in this fight now. Some unions are gonna have to bite the bullet and give back, the others need to get their back up. I actually believe capitalism works and the govt should stay out of private business. Congress could screw up a two car funeral and don't relate to anyone I know. I will agree it ain't getting any better and if I could I would use the beltway around DC as a barrier and make it a zoo. Unpaid political opinion: Vote ALL incumbents out! Sounds good but ain't gonna happen.
Chris
12-20-2009, 07:49 PM
Pensions are antiquated and just a legalized ponzi scheme (like social security) anyways. They should be done away with, new workers should never join a pension program, and instead get a 401k. You take the money with you if you change jobs, you control the money, and the money isn't entirely dependent on the company who employed you being around for the length of your retirement.

If you want to see some real scandals look at some of the malfeasance perpetrated by union big wigs with their constituent retirement funds. They have two funds, one for union officers, one for workers, guess which one is doing well?

Some unions just seem to spread corruption to everything they touch, the officers direct pension funds to be invested based on kickbacks, favors to friends, or political payoffs, and when the investment turns sour, who do they blame? The union doesn't care about the worker, it cares about itself, and those at the top.

You shouldn't trust your employer or your union or the government even for your retirement, you gotta take on the responsibility to plan for it yourself, because all three of those groups can't be trusted.
Rick
12-20-2009, 08:25 PM
I couldn't agree more, Chris. It's all about taking responsibility for self. I was hugely fortunate that I not only had a retirement plan but also a 401K to invest in. Something my father never had the opportunity to have (401K) and something my kids will never have the opportunity to have (pension and 401K). The pension was done away with a couple of years after I retired and the company bumped up the 401K. Great for younger employees but a difficult situation for those in the 15 year range. They didn't lose the pension they had, it was just frozen in place.

Invest in what you believe in but invest in something. I can tell you that historically the market is the best of all investments but I also understand some are skeptical. Just find something you trust.
Pal334
12-20-2009, 08:49 PM
One circumstance where I feel a pension is warranted is military members. For the time commitment, hazardous duty is more than justified. For the last 6 plus years, they also have access to a 403b (that number may be incorrect) Thrift Savings Plan, as I recall there was no government matching, but is an exellent opportunity to save for retirement .
Rick
12-20-2009, 08:52 PM
Pal, I for one am willing to give service members just about anything they want. I think it's the least we can do.
crashdive123
12-20-2009, 08:53 PM
Bacon Sammich???:drool::drool::drool::drool:
Rick
12-20-2009, 08:57 PM
Should be:

1. Available at all PXs
2. Part of your government pension
3. Part of MREs
4. made available to civilians (just sayin')
BENESSE
12-20-2009, 09:04 PM
Bacon Sammich???:drool::drool::drool::drool:

I'll switch teams for a bacon sammich. (from vegetarian, that is)
In fact, that's the only way an enemy can get me to talk but keep this to yourselves.
2dumb2kwit
12-20-2009, 09:08 PM
Bacon Sammich???:drool::drool::drool::drool:

Hey, crash.....Rick has a thread going, about rescuing bacon.:innocent:
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yellowcab
05-05-2026, 09:37 PM
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