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rwc1969
12-04-2009, 10:33 PM
It's getting cold here and after trapesing through the woods and coming up empty handed on bushytails I got the bright idea of trying my hand at making a fire with a bow drill. Plus, I found some old hornet nests and tinder fungus on the hunt.

The cold weather, tinder, and the video that was posted here of the guy, who's name escapes me, trying to start a fire with what's at hand got me thinking.

So, with the wheels a turnin' I cut a small 1/2" ash sapling, grabbed a wrist sized peice of well seasoned fallen oak branch and grabbed some 3/8 to 3/4" dead, but not punky branches of ash or possibly box elder and a dry mullein stalk. I figured this would make a good first effort at primitive fire using what was immediately available.

When I got home I split the oak branch in two, about 1-1/2" thick, for a fire board, tied a tennis shoe lace onto the ash sapling for a bow, and wittled the 3/8" dead ash branch into a foot long spindle. I figured I'd cheat a little and use a concave bottomed wine bottle for a bearing block/ handhold.

The spindle wasn't perfectly straight, the ash sapling bow was flimsy, the shoelace was thin and weak, the bottle was awkward to use, and the oak was, well oak, very hard to work. It was difficult starting a hole, splitting, etc. But, I had everything I needed to make fire, or so I thought, all layed out in front of me on a piece of fiberboard to protect the living room carpet.:tongue_smilie:

The thin spindle broke, the mullein stalk collapsed, the bowstring broke, and trying to hold the bottle as a bearing block was a real pain. It was very awkward to hold and couldn't be braced against my shin like I see people do in the videos. After crafting a thicker, straighter and shorter 5/8" x 8" piece of dead ash for the spindle and twisting the shoelace to make it stronger I finally managed to burn a hole and notch the oak fireboard.

All together I worked on the project 3 or 4 hours. I managed to get a lot of smoke and fine brown/ black grind from the oak but no ember. Right about the time I thought I'd get an ember the shoelace would start slipping on the spindle. Eventually, my bow broke!

At this point I was beat, but felt I learned a few lessons from the experiment.

1) I hear people say mullein and cattail stalks make good spindles, I'm not so sure that's the case. They seem awful thin, flimsy and pithy to me. They are very straight though so maybe there's a trick. I don't know! for now I'll stick to wood like ash because it is abundant and very straight.

The spindle slips much less if it's thicker and seems to build up a grind and smoke quicker even though it's spinning slower than a thin one.

Also, the spindle can become a deadly projectile if it slips out of the bow. I would almost bet if it's your first attempt it will slip. Don't poke your eye out.


2) Oak is not the best material for a fireboard. It takes a lot of work to fashion into shape and must take an extreme amount of heat to ignite an ember/ make a coal. I hear people say it works and with practice is a good material, but not for me.

I think the fireboard was too thick as well and maybe kept the grinds from being able to build up and produce an ember.

3) Shoelaces are not ideal bowstrings. For one, they are too thin and slip on the spindle. Mine frayed almost immediately and broke twice before I spun it. After spinning to put a twist it lasted a long time, but eventually broke.

If you're in a survival situation you'd probably be best off twisting and overlapping it if possible. Or you'll be walking around the woods without fire and without a shoelace. Kinda like putting yourself up sheets creek and throwing away the paddle.

4) Something small about the size of your fist is probably best for a bearing block. I suppose if I broke the bottom out of the wine bottle and glued it to a bearing block it'd make a great socket, but the bottle is just too big and awkward to be functional.

5) A bow should be very sturdy with a slight bend built into it. Finding thick, live branches with a slight bend around here is real easy. It should not bend easy or else it will just continue to weaken and the string will slip and eventually the bow will break.

I think any material will work as long as it's at least as long as your forearm, very sturdy and has a slight bend.

So, after all that learning?:blushing:, today I went to the shed and got some thicker, 1/4" or so, braided nylon rope, seasoned cottonwood log for fireboard and a 1" thick cherry bow. I'm now using the oak fireboard as my bearing block.

I got the bow strung, split the cottonwood fireboard down to 1/2 to 1" thick, started a hole, lubed the bearing block with crisco and continued my quest for fire. LOL! The rope didn't slip or break, the bow didn't bend, the bearing block was comfortable and stable, the cottonwood fireboard burned a hole and started smoking immediately. But, after cutting the notch and going for broke, the cottonwood fireboard split apart at the notch. It might be too punky! We'll see.

I figured I'd give my arms and legs a break and type this, now I'm going back to the carpet to try again.:smash:
COWBOYSURVIVAL
12-04-2009, 10:47 PM
Good Luck! I have yet to give it a go....
rwc1969
12-04-2009, 11:51 PM
thanks! I give up for now. the cottonwood is just too old and punky. After three different holes, all i get is brown grind/ sawdust and now I can barely even get smoke. The drill is pushing right thru the dead cottonwood. Exact opposite of the oak.

I'm going out deer hunting tomorrow w' the muzzleloader and hopefully I can find a "just right" piece of wood for a fireboard. I feel like Goldilox, this board's too hard, this one's too soft. Pppffttt!, hopefully i can get a deer and avoid being eaten by a bear in the process.

Have to let my noodle arms rest for a bit too.:gimp:
COWBOYSURVIVAL
12-04-2009, 11:54 PM
Happy huntin' I will be doing the same....I have 9 days off! WOOhoo!
rwc1969
12-05-2009, 12:08 AM
I hunted two weeks straight in gun season and only saw one deer. Usually have on e on opening day. Not sure what happened, but I'm hoping the end of gun season will allow em to settle down a bit. Not as many hunters in the woods. We had a pretty warm November too.
Aurelius95
12-05-2009, 09:25 AM
I took a primitive skills class about two years ago. We used mullein stalks, but did not use them for a bow drill. We used them with the hand drill method. It tears up your hands if you're not used to it, but I was able to get the tinder going. It was rewarding, but I'm not sure I could do it again on my first time, especially without the instructor present.

I applaud your tenacity! Keep trying.
Rick
12-05-2009, 09:25 AM
Welcome to my world. I saved a seat for you. That's why I carry a lot of BIC lighters. I'm pretty certain the whole fire bow thingy was made up by some mountain man as a joke to play on other mountain men. I'd believe it.

In any case, very nice write up.
SARKY
12-05-2009, 11:08 AM
Well first, for a bearing block because that is really the bigest pain to find, I carry an antler horn crotch/fork from the thickest part of the antler. I prefer csdar for the fire board. And you are right on when you say that thicker is better for the spindle unless you are hand turning the spindle as opposed to using a bow. I always have 550 cord with me and that is what i use for the bow string.
I prefer a fireboard slightly softer wood than the spindle, why? because if I find a nice straight spindle, I would rather wear through the fire board and start a new hole than try and hunt up another nice straight spindle.
your_comforting_company
12-05-2009, 11:17 AM
Excellent write up. Thanks for sharing your learning with us.

I reserve mullein and cattail stalks for the hand drill, though I use a cheater thumb-thong.
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg184/your_comforting_company/Primitive%20Skills/0912092048.jpg

Here's my little kit.
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg184/your_comforting_company/Primitive%20Skills/0424092048.jpg
Yellow poplar for the bow, doesn't flex. Some 1/4" rope I got somewhere for the string.
this isn't the kind of bow that will bend and shoot arrows.. needs to be very rigid. Also, my bow is quite long.. about 30" of string on it from one end to the next.. gives nice long spins without all the stopping and changing direction.

yucca stalk for the spindle, about 8" long. grinds well without collapsing.

black willow for the hearthboard. should not be rotten. It's about 3/4" thick and remember the rule of thirds: notch is 1/3 as wide as the diameter of the hole, and intrudes 1/3 of the way into the hole. any thinner than 1/2" and the hole wears out too quickly. any thicker and the friction point will be too far from the dustpile.. makes for a lot of drilling before you get the pile close enough to spark.

If your string is slipping, try shaving some flat spots on the perimeter of the spindle.. seems to help it grab. you can also lace the string around a few fingers as you take up the bow to take up the slack in the string. This way you don't have to readjust your string every time you need to change spindles. Also, you can wrap around the spindle twice for more grip on the spindle

I find oak too hard for either piece of the kit, except maybe the bearing block, which mine is a simple piece of limestone pecked out and lubed with soap.

the idea is for the hearth to grind the spindle into a fine dust, so check that your grinding isn't happening in reverse. The hearth will take wear too, but it should be your spindle that is making the most dust.. the hearth has to be aggressive enough to make friction. spindle should be only marginally softer than the hearth.

I've only worked with a few different materials and these are the ones that I find around my area most. Keep experimenting and you'll find what works best for you. I hope that helps some.
Canadian-guerilla
12-05-2009, 11:44 AM
i guess it all depends if you want to go completely natural and start from scratch while in the bush

the only thing i've never done is make natural cordage for a firebow string

nowadays, i take 4 items with me for ( easy ) firebow purposes

1 - hockey skate lace
2 - metal measuring spoon for downward pressure
3 - 7 inch piece of dowling for firestick spindle
4 - something for tinder ( sometimes i take 2-3 different things to experiment with )

i'll make the firebow and fireboard themselves from what i find while out in the bush

i use a firebow once and then break it and throw it in the fire
this way i'm always looking at branches on the ground as possible firebow/fire material
( sometimes i'll time myself, from the time i drop my gear to getting water boiling )


which reminds me, i should practice more with making cordage
your_comforting_company
12-05-2009, 11:56 AM
CG, yucca if well made will hold for a little while... I put yucca cordage on another bow I made and must have broken it 5 times before I got one thick enough and spliced well enough to hold up.. I'd really like to know what you find that works well for natural bowstring cordage. Keep us posted!!
Canadian-guerilla
12-05-2009, 12:16 PM
I'd really like to know what you find that works well for natural bowstring cordage. Keep us posted!!


i've got some cattails nearby, so i'll try cattail first for making cordage
but i may have missed the right time/season for cattail cordage

i'll cut some 2-3 foot pieces of cattail, take them home and experiment, not worried about length yet
oneraindog
12-05-2009, 03:34 PM
Welcome to my world. I saved a seat for you. That's why I carry a lot of BIC lighters. I'm pretty certain the whole fire bow thingy was made up by some mountain man as a joke to play on other mountain men. I'd believe it.

i would believe it too if i hadnt done it successfully.

once.

recently our primitive skills class had a survival technique weekend course and bow drill was taught. i am incredibly frustrated because i got it too work the very first try (photo proof on my blog!) but the 2348957293845 times i have tried since that weekend have ended in failure.

aAAAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

the most frustrating part of it is trying to figure out why i was able to do it once but not ever again ??????

but hope is kept alive by that first glowing ember which erupted into flame
owl_girl
12-05-2009, 07:41 PM
i used a yucca spindle on cedar and it worked really easy and fast. try no to let it squeek as you spin your spindle cause the vibrations will cause your coal powder to fall out or move around and not allow it to clump together to form a good coal.
rwc1969
12-10-2009, 12:43 AM
I wonder if intenstines would make good cordage for a bowdrill?

I've got some different materials and will be experimenting more this weekend.
Rick
12-10-2009, 08:55 AM
remember the rule of thirds

That's a new one on me. I've never heard of that before. I learned something today. Thanks!!
Survival Guy 10
12-13-2009, 05:49 PM
That's a new one on me. I've never heard of that before. I learned something today. Thanks!!

fire need 3 things air fuel and space utalize them all and you will have a good fire
crashdive123
12-13-2009, 06:14 PM
fire need 3 things air fuel and space utalize them all and you will have a good fire

Just a wee bit off on your fire triangle there Survival Guy. It would be oxygen, heat and fuel.
rwc1969
12-20-2009, 03:03 PM
i've been at this several times since posting and still am unable to get fire. I've used many different materials and have become quite efficient at drilling holes in boards.

I can get lots of smoke, but no glow. Went to a longer bow, stiffer bow, used a shot glass, measuring cup, spoon, ice cream scooper for bearing block. Every wood available to me for a spindle and fireboard and nothing but smoke. I give up!

one time my dust pile smoked for a good 30 seconds, but I couldn't get an ember by fanning with my hand. Arrrgghhh!
pocomoonskyeyes
12-20-2009, 04:04 PM
If it's smoking then you should have a coal or incredibly close.
Rick
12-20-2009, 05:49 PM
If it's smoking then you should have a coal or incredibly close.

Uh...no. I've gotten smoke hundreds of times. Thousands maybe. Embers are non existent. I once burned a 3 foot spindle down to 2 inches prompting a fog alert and still no embers. Well, okay, maybe I exaggerated but it's almost that bad.
your_comforting_company
12-20-2009, 07:23 PM
for me, once it smokes it still takes another 30 seconds or so to get an ember. smoke means it's hot enough to release the gasses in the wood.. almost ready to combust.

When you have an ember, the smoke goes from grey/white to yellow. that is the big clue that you can stop drilling and start blowing the ember.
Rick
12-20-2009, 08:50 PM
When I go from red faced to blue faced that's a big clue I need to quit or call 911.
your_comforting_company
12-20-2009, 09:24 PM
pick up this (http://www.amazon.com/Wildfire-fire-Making-Russell-Bradley-Cutts/dp/0972683917/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261358511&sr=8-4) book guys. Mine is autographed :D
rwc1969
12-20-2009, 10:07 PM
Poco, until I started this I never knew how far away "incredibly close" was.

It's far, far away!:surrender:

YCC, I'll remember the yellow smoke.

Rick, I've been from red, to blue, to white faced and back again. My arms and hands are much stronger for the effort and that's about it.

I've burned thru a good two feet of bow drill and fireboard combined.

My fire piston didn't fair any better. I went and dug out my old sparker and made some charcloth. That will be my alternative firestarter for now. At least I can practice making tinder and blowing an ember to flame. Hopefully then, when the day comes I finally get an ember with anything that remotely resembles primitive I can get fire.
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05-05-2026, 01:54 PM
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ABBY (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/1744428)Zalm (http://gascautery.ru/t/1773362)Alle (http://gashbucket.ru/t/1781116)авто (http://gasreturn.ru/t/1820366)1920 (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/1741442)Zone (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/1859420)1980 (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/1708566)Лени (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/1565296)Бирх (http://geartreating.ru/t/1630244)Orig (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/1529802)Цвет (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/1612199)лучш (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/1562255)Chan (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/1559979)OZON (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/1616394)Rich (http://getthebounce.ru/t/1612900)
Jewe (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/1700840)Форм (http://habituate.ru/t/1446013)худо (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/1565511)Will (http://hackworker.ru/t/1699665)Гени (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/1469785)Кага (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/1580927)Черг (http://hailsquall.ru/t/1568466)Боби (http://hairysphere.ru/t/1638080)Исет (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/1529542)Barr (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/1556890)XVII (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/1565507)This (http://haltstate.ru/t/1615768)медв (http://handcoding.ru/t/1659208)Loew (http://handportedhead.ru/t/1704757)Live (http://handradar.ru/t/1746879)
Pink (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/1778633)Jenn (http://hangonpart.ru/t/1812627)Zone (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/1859217)Rich (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/1441320)Смет (http://hardasiron.ru/t/1383339)Vish (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/1500511)Soli (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/1434738)Coto (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/1484429)Trai (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/1711400)Circ (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/1549380)Trev (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/1549425)Slan (http://headregulator.ru/t/1549437)Минф (http://heartofgold.ru/t/1752549)Step (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/1720219)Кево (http://heatinggas.ru/t/1596598)
Мена (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/1682964)римс (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/1386762)Лапи (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/1459244)Jack (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/1718028)Серг (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/1564952)приз (http://jobstress.ru/t/1612263)Зэлд (http://jogformation.ru/t/1578505)Печа (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/1718595)Швед (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/1473935)Соло (http://journallubricator.ru/t/1644361)Albe (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/1459466)Трух (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/1733406)Albe (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/1383882)Соде (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/1377538)Butt (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/1552736)
разв (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/1439035)Robe (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/1481028)худо (http://kentishglory.ru/t/1566053)Brix (http://kerbweight.ru/t/1783531)Clea (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/1552879)Bori (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/1383617)допо (http://keyserum.ru/t/1640273)Zone (http://kickplate.ru/t/1711546)Zone (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/1784017)Mora (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/1490650)Enha (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/1704207)ребе (http://kinozones.ru/film/9810)бюро (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/1559272)Тара (http://kneejoint.ru/t/1491870)Drif (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/1780255)
Snif (http://knockonatom.ru/t/1825173)Ripp (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/1857599)Пету (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/1564699)XVII (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1577959)Komm (http://laborracket.ru/t/1930113)Ever (http://labourearnings.ru/t/1981058)Гран (http://labourleasing.ru/t/1616431)памя (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/1496850)Over (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/1560135)BABY (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/1701395)Nigh (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/1762596)отря (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/1612159)иску (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/1349477)Афин (http://laggingload.ru/t/1613549)Вран (http://laissezaller.ru/t/1617334)
live (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/1857576)Amer (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/1919057)Zone (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/1827661)Пись (http://lamphouse.ru/t/1565141)Aris (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/1383837)Комс (http://lancingdie.ru/t/1353732)Есак (http://landingdoor.ru/t/1390267)(195 (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/1718313)Bran (http://landreform.ru/t/1523481)Кага (http://landuseratio.ru/t/1440606)Влад (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/1746598)стен (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1160073)барх (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/152196)PCIe (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/1715)Barb (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/589293)
yellowcab
05-05-2026, 01:55 PM
авто (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1178591)Elec (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/453031)Dolb (http://layabout.ru/shop/99594)Кита (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/100195)соба (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/102805)Read (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/272920)Clau (http://leaveword.ru/shop/145540)*осс (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/107438)Natu (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/268720)Wind (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/145977)М-64 (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/95684)Plut (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/268319)Жечк (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/159042)ARAG (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/159322)ARAG (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/613200)
хоро (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/597503)сост (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/1612)Root (http://mp3lists.ru/item/9282)Snow (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/145042)View (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/104290)язык (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/449064)*осс (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/176505)Clam (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/23943)язык (http://navelseed.ru/shop/100561)кожз (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/349783)Wind (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/27480)Begi (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/178238)Каба (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/105317)опыт (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/108285)Bosc (http://observationballoon.ru)
bril (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/98084)Loui (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/142138)цвет (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/143138)Davi (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/147510)Ster (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/199771)Кисм (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/146882)Фран (http://onesticket.ru/shop/378902)Лит* (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/579318)Lege (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/657377)Slim (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/202823)Лит* (http://palmberry.ru/shop/204651)XVII (http://papercoating.ru/shop/580498)Afte (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/684732)Gero (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1166019)изда (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1166093)
Петр (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1165096)Паре (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1167804)Чире (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/1295627)(МИФ (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/187411)Агош (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/593519)горо (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/593564)Vale (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/127701)Влас (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1070719)Flow (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/126688)сыгр (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/175934)теат (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/344792)*евв (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/510103)Ryan (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/635470)маши (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/1061429)Bhag (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/173226)
межд (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/418182)Geor (http://rearchain.ru/shop/355067)Шихо (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/513389)OZON (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/878849)Ухуд (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1051510)Gini (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1058786)Боло (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1670806)Верх (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1692419)MPEG (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1217678)OZON (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/121351)квал (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1324404)спец (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1043758)дыро (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1064773)Анаш (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1416761)Chal (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1455627)
Вино (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1435294)Вино (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1457170)Дмит (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1488867)Нефе (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/176597)авто (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/249107)Side (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/270862)лекц (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/41585)Нику (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/369347)Нянк (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/398620)Teri (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/172571)PCIe (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/1715)PCIe (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/1715)PCIe (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/1715)Astr (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/475546)Иллю (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/488660)
авто (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/82583)Quee (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/84079)Кочн (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/484985)Форм (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/496797)Змие (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1815010)Bett (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/1856377)Gold (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/620308)Кома (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/271448)Форм (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/398586)Литв (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/952976)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)Мира (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/974003)Крюк (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/477083)