Urban Survival Manual, any ideas?

[Icemancometh]

I, like many I suppose, have been watching The Colony on the Discovery Channel. It has made me wonder if there is a single reference source that would cover all or most areas of urban survival. I am referring to things like the colonists have encountered, like setting up alternate energy sources, communications, water and food procurement, medical issues, etc. I have many survival manuals, but don’t have anything that deals with a more urban type of scenario. I am looking for something that has details, details, and more details. I currently live on the outskirts of a large metropolis and feel I am more likely to find myself in an urban survival situation. I feel my wilderness skills are adequate and I always carry a wilderness kit when I hunt or hike. I am sure some of the wilderness skills can translate to an urban setting. I have seen books on Amazon by Ragnar Benson (sp) but haven’t had a chance to look through one. Any ideas on this type of material?

[pocomoonskyeyes]

I don't know of any manuals/books that are currently out there, but could be a marketable idea.

[Winnie]

Here you go, proper Job!

http://www.amazon.com/Urban-Survival-Handbook-Lofty-Wiseman/dp/1602392161/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1252694966&sr=8-3

[RichJ]

For me urban survival is all about how to survive long enough to get out of a city, not stay there any length of time. I wouldn't think it would take longer than a couple of days to get out of any major city; at least as far as the burbs where things may be a little calmer. If the SHTF I want to get as far away from a big city as I can get. That's where the crime and misery and lack of resources will be.

[Rick]

What do you base that assessment on? Even NO had limited issues and that was a worst case scenario if ever there was one. The Dome and some isolated pockets. But that's true for any city on any given day.

(And I'll bet if some folks in the dome had weapons that crap would have stopped, too.)

[NightShade]

check out Tom Brown's Field Guide to Urban Survival... good book! it's one of many in his field guide to survival series

[Icemancometh]

check out Tom Brown's Field Guide to Urban Survival... good book! it's one of many in his field guide to survival series

I just reserved that along with a Cody Lundin book and a book called "When Technology Fails". The latter seems like it might have the info I am looking for. It looks like it covers alot of info. I will give a review after I take a look at it if anyone is interested.

[SARKY]

I am in the process of writing a book on urban survival, i am taking it in a new direction starting with evaluating the building you are in for both enviromental factors and defendability. With some recipies for the other white meats. and ending with either getting out of dodge or establishing your own domain.

[Rick]

I don't know how you could make today's buildings defendable with sheetrock and brick veneer between you and them. Without substantial modifications.

[catfish10101]

What do you base that assessment on? Even NO had limited issues and that was a worst case scenario if ever there was one. The Dome and some isolated pockets. But that's true for any city on any given day.

(And I'll bet if some folks in the dome had weapons that crap would have stopped, too.)

Rick, trust me when I say that most of the country has no idea what went on in NO after Katrina, and I agree that getting out is the best policy. The dome was a complete disaster, the town was in a state of hell like never seen before. Murders went unreported. Looting was not enough so armed robbery, and worse took over (all went unreported). After all, those who remained in NO had no police to worry about for several days. TRUST ME WHEN I SAY "GET OUT!!!"

[RichJ]

What do you base that assessment on? Even NO had limited issues and that was a worst case scenario if ever there was one. The Dome and some isolated pockets. But that's true for any city on any given day.

(And I'll bet if some folks in the dome had weapons that crap would have stopped, too.)

You talkin to me?

I base that on the fact that when supply trucks stop rolling, people are going to need things that they can't get. Too many people with too limited supplies will mean chaos. NO had limited issues because 95% percent of the people were smart enough to get out first, so the city was mostly empty to start with. I wouldn't consider NO a worst case scenario anyway due to the fact that most people did get out. It was worst case for the city yes, but not for the people. A few thousand people were without food and water for a few days, big deal. The people who were left were too stupid to know you could start a fire and boil some of that water or collect it from a hot water heater. For me a true worst case scenario is when the New Madrid finaly gives it up and 3,000,000+ people are without power, water, and food for weeks/months on end. Imagine what St. Louis or Memphis will be like. I wouldn't want to be in either of those cities. Urban survival in that case would mean to get out of town quick.

[Winnie]

You talkin to me?

I base that on the fact that when supply trucks stop rolling, people are going to need things that they can't get. Too many people with too limited supplies will mean chaos. NO had limited issues because 95% percent of the people were smart enough to get out first, so the city was mostly empty to start with. I wouldn't consider NO a worst case scenario anyway due to the fact that most people did get out. It was worst case for the city yes, but not for the people. A few thousand people were without food and water for a few days, big deal. The people who were left were too stupid to know you could start a fire and boil some of that water or collect it from a hot water heater. For me a true worst case scenario is when the New Madrid finaly gives it up and 3,000,000+ people are without power, water, and food for weeks/months on end. Imagine what St. Louis or Memphis will be like. I wouldn't want to be in either of those cities. Urban survival in that case would mean to get out of town quick.

What if for some reson you can't? For me the thought of being prepared for just one type of situation leaves me cold.

[NightShade]

I am in the process of writing a book on urban survival, i am taking it in a new direction starting with evaluating the building you are in for both enviromental factors and defendability. With some recipies for the other white meats. and ending with either getting out of dodge or establishing your own domain.

Let me know when you finish... or if you'd like a proofreader for a rough draft... I'm definetly interested!!

[NightShade]

I don't know how you could make today's buildings defendable with sheetrock and brick veneer between you and them. Without substantial modifications.

I think the key is picking a better built building... while many buildings are built that way many others are built a lot tougher..

[Rick]

Thanks, Rich. I agree, New Madrid is an unprecedented disaster waiting to happen. Much like Yellowstone, I'm afraid. One of my GGGGG grand uncles was one of two Baptist preachers that went to New Madrid to help baptize folks immediately after the quake. The story is listed in the book, Harvest Time on the Prairie.

I guess my reference to worst case was for the people that were left. I sure have no argument with your description of what they could have done. And I don't mean to minimize the impact or the dangers. My only point is there are dangerous places in my city that I avoid today. I'd avoid them after a disaster as well. Animals generally operate in a territory and people/animals are no different. For the most part, they will stay where they know but expand their perimeter. IMHO.

[SARKY]

Nightshade, I'll keep you in mind
Rick, the concept is to evaluate your building and determine wether you should /could harden it or wether to pick a different building to occupy.

[oldsoldier]

I don't know how you could make today's buildings defendable with sheetrock and brick veneer between you and them. Without substantial modifications.

Rick a local company offers a "spray in" insulation that fills the entire wall cavity. and hardens to quote " an extremely tough inner liner" something like that in addition to masonry exterior may help to slow or stop some penetration from less than "point blank" rounds.

[BENESSE]

Having contemplated this topic from NYC is how I stumbled into this forum.
I've done a lot of research since then and with the help of some members here I've become better prepared than I was before. Certainly more knowledgeable
about my own predicament.

I can say one things for certain.
Staying put and surviving in a large city is possible only if you band with enough like minded people to be able to share your resources and watch each others' butts. That beats becoming a refugee and trying to survive on the road with zillion other people.
I know the city, I don't know the burbs and trails.
For now, I feel more comfortable with sticking to what I know.
That's not to say that I'm not prepared to bail out if I have to.
It just wouldn't be my first choice at this point.

[SARKY]

BENESSE, I have found that the most difficult part is the finding of like minded people before TSHTF, OH, they all become converts afterward! The second most difficult part is the storing of provisions (just never enough room)(I'm talking city dwelling here) One thing I do reccomend is having plenty of cash on hand in small denominations. When the runn on food starts, who ever has the cash in hand is going to get it. You don't want to waste time running to an ATM that might not even be working.

[oly]

Here's some reading for ya. This State believes in preparing and few actually practices it or just think it will never happen to them.

http://beready.utah.gov/family/index.html

[BENESSE]

BENESSE, I have found that the most difficult part is the finding of like minded people before TSHTF, OH, they all become converts afterward! The second most difficult part is the storing of provisions (just never enough room)(I'm talking city dwelling here) One thing I do reccomend is having plenty of cash on hand in small denominations. When the runn on food starts, who ever has the cash in hand is going to get it. You don't want to waste time running to an ATM that might not even be working.

Totally agree!
The added difficulty of a large city is that people tend to be impersonal and the topic of Survival never comes up in a normal, day to day interaction.
"Survivalist" stereotypes unfortunately exist especially in a place like Manhattan so one has to thread lightly when broaching the subject.

Like Minded goes deeper than preparedness and (for me) has little to do with class, race, income or religion. So finding like-minded people in a city
of 10+ mil. is a colossal challenge.

[SARKY]

BENESSE,
Do you have any "friends" in the city? Do you have anyone that you might broach the topic with, maybe in a round about way as in "what would you do if we have another disaster in the city?" And "what if you can't get out of the city?" Don't even mention anything about your plans or leanings until you "felt them out".

[BENESSE]

BENESSE,
Do you have any "friends" in the city? Do you have anyone that you might broach the topic with, maybe in a round about way as in "what would you do if we have another disaster in the city?" And "what if you can't get out of the city?" Don't even mention anything about your plans or leanings until you "felt them out".

Sarky, I'm afraid not with this crowd at this time.
There has to be context, otherwise people just tune it out.
Manhattan is a unique place in that respect. One would think that after what happened on 9/11 the city would be more proactive in educating its residents in a meaningful and constructive way.
The mindset is just different out here. It's definitely not Utah.
And you'll have to admit that the government in general tends to hold back on disaster preparedness beyond the no-brainer stuff for fear of creating panic among people.

Perhaps I need to make new friends at the target practice and go from there.

[pocomoonskyeyes]

Sarky, I'm afraid not with this crowd at this time.
There has to be context, otherwise people just tune it out.
Manhattan is a unique place in that respect. One would think that after what happened on 9/11 the city would be more proactive in educating its residents in a meaningful and constructive way.
The mindset is just different out here. It's definitely not Utah.
And you'll have to admit that the government in general tends to hold back on disaster preparedness beyond the no-brainer stuff for fear of creating panic among people.

Perhaps I need to make new friends at the target practice and go from there.

Benesse, I basically classify people in 4 categories: 1) Family - those that I will stay by their side through thick and thin no matter what( Not that they have to be actual Family members, that is just the category I place them in) 2) friends- People that I will stand by most of the time but not always, 3) Acquaintances people that I know and like some, but am not necessarily loyal to and 4) others - everyone that doesn't fall in the first 3 categories. Mind you I am shortening this for brevity and am probably oversimplifying. But it would seem that most people you know fall in the last 2 categories and I do not envy you at all. That is one reason I do not like large cities. It is hard to get to know people that share similar ideas wherever you go. However the saying " nothing ventured,nothing gained" comes to mind. You may have to lose some friends and acquaintances to gain some Family, It seems that is what you are really craving is like minded individuals to form a close knit group. I guess what I'm saying is what have you got to lose as compared to what have you to gain?

[Rick]

And one thing I would like to point out, Benesse. It's isn't the city's responsibility to educate people. It might seem like a good role but it's still up to us. That may be part of the problem there. Folks are still looking to some level of government to "save" them.

[BENESSE]

And one thing I would like to point out, Benesse. It's isn't the city's responsibility to educate people. It might seem like a good role but it's still up to us. That may be part of the problem there. Folks are still looking to some level of government to "save" them.

Rick, the role of govt. is a whole another topic sure to generate some strong opinions.

I personally don't expect the city/state govt. to compensate for people's lack of personal responsibility. However I do expect it to do its job.
9/11 caught them unprepared to even take care of their own--NYPD & NYFD
even though they had an 8 year advance notice.
From the first attack to the second NOTHING was done. That's 0.
I live fairly close to a Fire Station that lost 8 members. I knew some of them.
Ask their surviving buddies and families if the city could have done more to ensure they had everything they needed to keep them safe.
Some of them didn't have to die.

I don't need the city to tell me to store water and batteries or be vigilant during code orange and watch for anything suspicious when half the people on the street look weird and suspicious on daily basis.

For a start what I need to know is where the shelters and evacuation routes are and how the city plans to handle 8 million bewildered people who might have to bail when TSHTF.

Israel is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Maybe our Govt. can learn something from them.

[SARKY]

Poco, I only have 3 catagories 1: Friends, 2: Acquaintances, 3: Blivits
BENESSE, It seems that civil defense is a dead issue in this country, we have become soft, compliant, and complacent.
Rick, you are wrong, it is the govt's responsibility to have information available for the public and they should have drills in order to teach the public what to do in an emergency.
Granted you can't make them learn!

[Rick]

Benesse - I agree that a city has a responsibility to its employees. Certainly no question about that. Can a government do more? Sure. Can they perform drills and build shelters? Of course. And yes, Sarky, I do believe they should have information available. Evacuation routes should be marked out. But I don't believe it's governments responsibility to teach us how to plan, how to perform first aid or how best to equip our homes.

Cities and counties (depending where you live) should be the first line of defense for any disaster but it's up to us, I think, to take the initiative, learn about disasters and actually do some prepatory work prior to one happening. That's all I meant.

[BENESSE]

Benesse - I agree that a city has a responsibility to its employees. Certainly no question about that. Can a government do more? Sure. Can they perform drills and build shelters? Of course. And yes, Sarky, I do believe they should have information available. Evacuation routes should be marked out. But I don't believe it's governments responsibility to teach us how to plan, how to perform first aid or how best to equip our homes.

Cities and counties (depending where you live) should be the first line of defense for any disaster but it's up to us, I think, to take the initiative, learn about disasters and actually do some prepatory work prior to one happening. That's all I meant.

No disagreements there.

However, Manhattan is a unique case and needs a unique Federal (most important)/State/Local Govt. attention. (We also pay some of the highest taxes in the country for which we don't get back proportionately more.)

Some things just aren't possible here that people take for granted in smaller towns not to mention the country.
The living space is at the premium.
Most people live in high-rise apt. buildings with no attics or basements or yards or terraces. You can forget about storing 6 months worth of anything. If you decide to spring for a storage space it'll probably be a couple of miles away (if you're lucky) and it will cost you an arm & a leg. Then you'll have to get there somehow in case of an emergency.
Most people don't have cars and depend on public transportation to get around. Or they walk. The traffic is horrendous even on good days. It often takes me 45 minutes by cab just to make it to the Lincoln Tunnel (on the way to Newark Airport)--a stretch that should take 10 min. tops under normal circumstances. Pedestrian traffic isn't much better thanks to the hoard of tourists year round. (God bless them, we need them, but...)

I can take my own disaster preparedness up to a certain point, beyond which, the logistics of managing the freaked-out population and limited resources falls squarely on government's shoulders.
If that's not their job I don't know what is. Certainly not to tell me who I can and cannot marry, don't you think?

[Sourdough]

No disagreements there.

However, Manhattan is a unique case and needs a unique Federal (most important)/State/Local Govt. attention. (We also pay some of the highest taxes in the country for which we don't get back proportionately more.)

Some things just aren't possible here that people take for granted in smaller towns not to mention the country.
The living space is at the premium.
Most people live in high-rise apt. buildings with no attics or basements or yards or terraces. You can forget about storing 6 months worth of anything. If you decide to spring for a storage space it'll probably be a couple of miles away (if you're lucky) and it will cost you an arm & a leg. Then you'll have to get there somehow in case of an emergency.
Most people don't have cars and depend on public transportation to get around. Or they walk. The traffic is horrendous even on good days. It often takes me 45 minutes by cab just to make it to the Lincoln Tunnel (on the way to Newark Airport)--a stretch that should take 10 min. tops under normal circumstances. Pedestrian traffic isn't much better thanks to the hoard of tourists year round. (God bless them, we need them, but...)



Sounds like the the Moose Hunting likely "SUCKS" in that area..........:)

[crashdive123]

Sounds like the the Moose Hunting likely "SUCKS" in that area..........:)

Not true. They just gather them up in one place. You know how city folk hate to work at hunting.

http://mantiqaltayr.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/woodland_moose_lodge_2007.jpg

[BENESSE]

Sounds like the the Moose Hunting likely "SUCKS" in that area..........:)

Nah, we just let the rats take care of 'em.

[Sourdough]

Nah, we just let the rats take care of 'em.

All our RATS have two legs......

[BENESSE]

All our RATS have two legs......

That's the ones we shoot.
The four legged kind are pets.

[BENESSE]

Benesse, I basically classify people in 4 categories: 1) Family - those that I will stay by their side through thick and thin no matter what( Not that they have to be actual Family members, that is just the category I place them in) 2) friends- People that I will stand by most of the time but not always, 3) Acquaintances people that I know and like some, but am not necessarily loyal to and 4) others - everyone that doesn't fall in the first 3 categories. Mind you I am shortening this for brevity and am probably oversimplifying. But it would seem that most people you know fall in the last 2 categories and I do not envy you at all. That is one reason I do not like large cities. It is hard to get to know people that share similar ideas wherever you go. However the saying " nothing ventured,nothing gained" comes to mind. You may have to lose some friends and acquaintances to gain some Family, It seems that is what you are really craving is like minded individuals to form a close knit group. I guess what I'm saying is what have you got to lose as compared to what have you to gain?


Poco, you just about nailed it!
My 1 & 2 categories are at least 4 states away and beyond.
3 & 4 are the ones I'll be weathering the storms with and I'll just have to learn how if I don't get too complacent about it.
If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with.

[crashdive123]

I would think (and I know it may be easier said than done) that developing some more of the category 1 and 2 relationships in your area would be the key to helping you (and them) in the situations that concern you.

[BENESSE]

I would think (and I know it may be easier said than done) that developing some more of the category 1 and 2 relationships in your area would be the key to helping you (and them) in the situations that concern you.

Most def. Crash!

I've also been involved in a neighborhood historic preservation organization for several years now and I'm finally ready to gradually introduce the idea of neighborhood disaster preparedness, etc. etc.
We've had the Red Cross presentation on basic preparedness, classes have been offered in CPR but NObody has broached the subject of a worst case scenario.

Collective "we" are just not used to facing our worst fears and dealing with them head on. That's true with the whole country and it's especially true with NYC.

[hoosierarcher]

Palladin Press has several books on the topic of Urban Survival and Hood's Woods has at least one DVD on it.

[Icemancometh]

palladin Press Has Several Books On The Topic Of Urban Survival And Hood's Woods Has At Least One Dvd On It.

Thanks, I Will Check Them Out. I'm Not Sure If What I Am Looking For Actually Exists. It May Boil Down To Many Books Or Just Accumulated Knowledge.

[Jayden Tor]

Living in the city and talking with people around here there is one thing that I can say. We, as a people, have become complacent. Too many hold the idea that situations that could obliterate the life we currently live as we know it will never happen. There are "too many fail safes" in place. There are "so many aid programs to help". I think the problem here isn't just mere ignorance, it is an unwillingness to believe that the comforts for which they have worked their entire lives, will hold out until the end of time. Its arrogant.

A perfect example of this: a manager at work always looks at me with pity when I talked about the garden or canning what we've grown, the cheese making projects or the yogurt making project, etc. I don't talk about the 50 pound bag of rice or the closet of TP stacked from floor to ceiling or anything like that. I finally asked her about it one day and she told me that she would never consider having a freezer for a side of beef or eating anything that wasn't completely fresh. She shops for their meals at the grocery store almost daily so that it is the freshest available and the idea of living like we do, growing, canning, purchasing and slaughtering our own beef etc., actually disgusts her because home canning is unsanitary (she also mentioned she would not be eating anything I brought in for pot luck ever again, too).

As the conversation went on, I was horrified to know that her cupboards were virtually bare. If they need something, they simply use their buying power and purchase it. They rarely have more than two or three meals in the making in the fridge at one time.

Ok, so I stopped talking to her because I really don't want her showing up at my house when we do end up in a situation that will warrant a, "Oh my God!" It doesn't get much more complacent as that, I don't think. She honestly believes that there will never be any type of crisis. Unfortunately, there are too many that think this way.

[Rick]

I think that's pretty accurate, Jayden. I suspect that's how she was raised and probably all she knows. I don't believe you can change the thinking of folks like that. You can only accept that's how they believe and move on. I also think there is the whole "it won't happen to me" mentality.

Iceman - I think you are looking at three levels of urban survival. The first level is how do I protect my family and home from day to day challenges. All the obvious stuff such as fire, theft, assault, etc. The second level is how do we survive if something happens such as a tornado, chemical leak, etc.. Finally, the third level is how to put it back together again. That might include everything from insurance in the short term to tools and other equipment/resources for long term.

I think it becomes more difficult as you move higher on the scale. It's fairly easy to install smoke alarms in level 1, for example and much more difficult to know how to replace a roof and have the tools and materials to be able to do it, in level 3.

I learned this the hard way as the result of a tornado pretty early on. I was 24 or 25. It was a nasty situation but one of the best lessons I've ever learned. One of those glad I went through it but never want to do it again moments.

I would suggest dividing your preps into three levels. It will make it easier to identify and resolve, I think, and you'll have the gratification of seeing early successes and accomplishments.

[TucsonMax]

Iceman:
I live in the surburbs of Tucson and definitely recommend Ragnar's Urban Survival. He did a lot of research, lived all over the world and spoke to many people who survived Berlin, etc. He did spend some time discussing military scenarios, ie: enemy tanks punching through downtown office buildings and how to properly bury a sniper rifle... things that are not my top concern, (unless Mexico invades). One important point he made, that is RARELY discussed on this site (likely because this is about Wilderness Survival) is staying in place/buggin-in, for the long haul. He describes those who BO as "refugees" (a term I thought I'd never use to describe an American) but that's what many bug-outers would become. (I'll save that discussion for another thread.)

Overall I thought his recomendations were very good and his book is a keeper.

[crashdive123]

TM - I think that most folks here are the bug-in types, with the ability to bug-out if needed.

[TucsonMax]

Crash: I would like to think you are right, but I've read so many posts that say "I'm outa here..." Thuth be told, I've learned so much from this site in the last six months, I should probably spend a month just rereading a few hundred threads again.

[Rick]

I agree with Crash, TM - Personally, I'm a BI kind of guy. Wait.....did that come out right? B.U.G. I.N. kind of guy.

[crashdive123]

There are some, and some are in locations or anticipate situations that bugging out may be the best option for them. For me, and many others (I believe) we have spent time preparing our homesteads to help get us through situations. No need to abandon those preparations unless absolutely necessary. Now - Category 4 or 5 hurricane headed to my location - I guess you could call it bugging out, but I think of it as just finding temporary quarters for a temporary situation.

[Rick]

There will always be situations that force you into bug out scenarios. But, unless push comes to shove, I have no plans to leave my food, fuel, ammo, and generator. And my area is safe enough with good neighbors so I don't have "roving hordes" to worry about.

[TucsonMax]

Rick: I know you're a BIner, have read that many times and that's why I've bookmarked so many of your posts. Maybe it's more of the Young Terks that expect to be living and surviving in the wild.

[Rick]

Don't go spreading the BI thing around, okay?

[Icemancometh]

I, too, have no intention of leaving my supplies behind. Too much to carry and would hate to leave it for the looters. If push came to shove though, I would load up what I could and go. I keep several rubbermaid tubs loaded with just that in mind. They contain water, food, tools, small propane stove, Ruger MK512, ammo etc. and the 590 in close by. I have access to 110 acres (HUNTING LAND)(20 mile drive) that has a pond, spring and plenty of deer, turkey, and small game. I end up worrying more about my wifes parents. They keep plenty of food on hand, but have no way of cooking. During a week long power outage last winter they had no way to cook or heat thier home. Yes they have a fireplace, but I can't get them to store firewood or even buy a campstove to cook on. I made several trips taking them seasoned wood from my stack and they can't even start or keep a fire going, and that is with a gas starter. Any ideas on motivating these people to prepare? I have done all that I know to do and it has got me nowhere. I think they plan on living with me if things were to get very bad.

[Rick]

Well...it sounds like they have a plan. You are delivering the wood.

Actually, some folks you can't motivate for whatever reason. I think the best you can do is make plans to accommodate them if something does happen. At least your wife and you will have peace of mind knowing they will be taken care of.

[Old GI]

There are some, and some are in locations or anticipate situations that bugging out may be the best option for them. For me, and many others (I believe) we have spent time preparing our homesteads to help get us through situations. No need to abandon those preparations unless absolutely necessary. Now - Category 4 or 5 hurricane headed to my location - I guess you could call it bugging out, but I think of it as just finding temporary quarters for a temporary situation.


As a former FL hurricane dude, I've applied the philosophy, discussed here, for many years. Make simple plans - First decision: Stay or Go. Have plans for Bug Out and In including what would be the situation and vulnerabilities.

By the way, Rick. You're a baaaaaaad man!

[Rick]

If I had a nickle for every time........

[equus]

I know that if TSHTF then I will be leaving the city and possibly on horseback. I know for me I would rather survive in the country than to try and to survive in the city. The city I think will have a lot of crime and things that could go very wrong. This is me I would rather take my chances and find something else like a cave or den in the ground.

[BENESSE]

After an intense research for the last 6 months it's been my observation up to this point that the least has been written on Urban Survival, and by Urban I mean NYC, (the ultimate torture test of survival even under normal circumstances) Chicago, LA, etc. (Ragnar comes close but he needs major updating for the 21st cent.)

I see an enormous opportunity in someone starting Urban Survival "retreats" (right in the city of choice) with the approach of teaching people how to survive staying put much like they are thought how to survive in the Wilderness.
With so many unique challenges one would face in a city if TSHTF, a hands-on approach is the only way to learn.

There just isn't anything like it offered anywhere nor a better time to start.

Any takers?

[dscrick]

This is a good thread, and the discussion is valid. This brings me back to Charleston SC when Hurricane Hugo hit. We lived about 17 miles from the coast, but the damage and devastation from that one went far inland. We were without power for 22 days after the storm. Our house had city water, and it was off (no pressure) for 5 days, then unfit to drink for 3 days after that. I was prepared, we had food and water, camping gear, all we needed. And of course I was armed and capable of protecting my family. The shocking thing was the totally unprepared state of the majority of the population. I was amazed. Despite continuous warnings from state and local government, a great many people made no preparations at all. They had no survival knowledge to rely on in most cases either. Needless to say I ended up supporting quite a few unprepared neighbors through this. I think that if I was in a more urban setting my attitude towards others would have been much different. You can easily share with a few people you know, but the hungry masses will certainly try and take what you have when they get desperate. I espouse the theory of bugging out of a city environment to a stocked retreat location. I know many will say "Well we all can't afford a place in the country". Of course not. But you don't need one. A few discreet supply caches along a route to the home of a relative or like minded friend in another area is a good start. Pool your supplies and stock that retreat location, or several locations, together. Make a plan and set up egress routes to the retreats. You then have the strength of a cohesive group at a well supplied place, and you avoid the mobs of unprepared city dwellers.

[BENESSE]

This is a good thread, and the discussion is valid. This brings me back to Charleston SC when Hurricane Hugo hit. We lived about 17 miles from the coast, but the damage and devastation from that one went far inland. We were without power for 22 days after the storm. Our house had city water, and it was off (no pressure) for 5 days, then unfit to drink for 3 days after that. I was prepared, we had food and water, camping gear, all we needed. And of course I was armed and capable of protecting my family. The shocking thing was the totally unprepared state of the majority of the population. I was amazed. Despite continuous warnings from state and local government, a great many people made no preparations at all. They had no survival knowledge to rely on in most cases either. Needless to say I ended up supporting quite a few unprepared neighbors through this. I think that if I was in a more urban setting my attitude towards others would have been much different. You can easily share with a few people you know, but the hungry masses will certainly try and take what you have when they get desperate. I espouse the theory of bugging out of a city environment to a stocked retreat location. I know many will say "Well we all can't afford a place in the country". Of course not. But you don't need one. A few discreet supply caches along a route to the home of a relative or like minded friend in another area is a good start. Pool your supplies and stock that retreat location, or several locations, together. Make a plan and set up egress routes to the retreats. You then have the strength of a cohesive group at a well supplied place, and you avoid the mobs of unprepared city dwellers.

All good advice and quite doable 'til you find yourself on an island of Manhattan with 2 million other people, and 6+ more waiting for you if you're lucky enough to make it out across some bridge or tunnel.
Think high-rise in every direction, no car, no paddle, closest friends & family 4 states away.
I don't just need training to contemplate getting out (or staying put), I need therapy to wrap my mind around it.
Seriously though, this is a unique predicament that calls for unique and specific solutions of which there are few available to us mere mortals.

[TucsonMax]

After an intense research for the last 6 months it's been my observation up to this point that the least has been written on Urban Survival, and by Urban I mean NYC, (the ultimate torture test of survival even under normal circumstances) Chicago, LA, etc. (Ragnar comes close but he needs major updating for the 21st cent.)

I see an enormous opportunity in someone starting Urban Survival "retreats" (right in the city of choice) with the approach of teaching people how to survive staying put much like they are thought how to survive in the Wilderness.


I agree on both points, yes the book should be updated. As far as Urban retreats, even if I learned nothing, just meeting others in the group would be worth the cost of admission.

[dscrick]

All good advice and quite doable 'til you find yourself on an island of Manhattan with 2 million other people, and 6+ more waiting for you if you're lucky enough to make it out across some bridge or tunnel.
Think high-rise in every direction, no car, no paddle, closest friends & family 4 states away.
I don't just need training to contemplate getting out (or staying put), I need therapy to wrap my mind around it.
Seriously though, this is a unique predicament that calls for unique and specific solutions of which there are few available to us mere mortals.

I understand your situation, I've spent considerable time in the big Apple. I guess the only thing you can do is keep a weather eye on the horizon and try to anticipate the coming storm, then maybe get out before it happens.

[TucsonMax]

Ditto, in fact, I almost moved to Tudor City.
The idea of caching (stashing supllies) in Manhattan seems implausable (hence update Ragnar.)

BENESSE: Perhaps you could create some hidden wall-space in one room? Put up a fake wall to conceal a 1ft wide storage area behind you bed, etc. Would involve drywall (in elevators) and landlord issues (if discovered) but would help you store a significant amount. I'm sure your living space is cramped already, but if you look over your place, would "removing" 8-12 inches in exchange for peace-of-mind be worthwhile? Just a suggestion.

[Rick]

The obvious issue becomes the reason to make a decision in the first place. There are reasons to leave and leave now where ever you are and equally good reasons to stay in place. Each one, I think, must be judged on its own merits.

We've discussed, at some length, various options for Benesse and other New Yorkers but none of them are very good. Especially in the Manhattan area. And apartment living does not lend itself well to stockpiling much of anything. But, it can be done for the short term.

One thing we have not talked about is the basement of your building. Will your association allow you to place a locked cabinet there to store items in? Perhaps your building association would consider some locked storage area for all of you to use. Maybe not this complex but something that would keep outsiders out.

http://www.smethurst-security.co.uk/Your_Smethurst/photos/Bespoke_Solutions.jpg

[BENESSE]

Rick, we do have a private storage space in the basement and I guess it's time to admit that nothing there is more important than survival supplies--water to begin with. (If I could get over my hatred of water beds I could easily accommodate two right in the apt.)

TMax, a hidden wall space is a terrific idea!
Wish I had enough sense to do it before we moved in, although even now, it's worth considering. It would be a small enough project we could handle ourselves otherwise it gets complicated.

It's time to recalibrate some priorities.

[crashdive123]

BENESSE - I don't know if this is an option for you, but are there any self storage units nearby? Something that would allow 24 hr access. If that is something you would look at for the situations you envision, I would want to make sure that I could access my storage unit even if power went out.

[Rick]

Water beds are not an option for storing water. A water conditioner is usually added to the water to protect the vinyl and keep the water clean. I think it has to be added every six months. You wouldn't want to drink that.

As for hidden spaces, beneath any enclosed stairwell and above dropped ceilings are places that could serve as potential storage.

[BENESSE]

Water beds are not an option for storing water. A water conditioner is usually added to the water to protect the vinyl and keep the water clean. I think it has to be added every six months. You wouldn't want to drink that.

As for hidden spaces, Beneath any enclosed stairwell and above dropped ceilings are places that could serve as potential storage.

Couldn't you treat the H2O it if you had tothe way you would say, pond water with purification tablets, etc.?
Could you bathe in it?

We actually have dropped ceilings but I couldn't figure out how to make the access inconspicuous.
I guess I can always hang a mirror.

[BENESSE]

BENESSE - I don't know if this is an option for you, but are there any self storage units nearby? Something that would allow 24 hr access. If that is something you would look at for the situations you envision, I would want to make sure that I could access my storage unit even if power went out.

They are quite a schlep from my place, but space being at a premium, they too are in a high rise and in a shady part of town.
I wondered though if public storage would be a looting target since it won't be defended like a home might be.

[Rick]

Couldn't you treat the H2O it if you had tothe way you would say, pond water with purification tablets, etc.?
Could you bathe in it?

Treating water doesn't remove the chemicals. You are treating only to keep pathogens like cysts, amoebas, bacteria and viruses from causing you illness. I wouldn't want to bathe in chemically treated water either. You could use it for toilets, however.

You may have little or no space above the suspended ceiling. However, if you do have sufficient space, a small shelf suspended above the false ceiling and anchored into the supports would give you a place to hide items that might be of more value and certainly items you would not require constant access to. I would pick a location in a corner of the room so you would have two walls to help support as opposed to the middle of the room, for example. I would want to construct the shelf so it has some ability to secure items. You certainly wouldn't want things shaking loose in an earthquake and come crashing down through the ceiling. Perhaps a ledge around the exposed edge of the shelf to keep thing from sliding off. Just a thought but any area that you can use and would be hidden would be to your advantage.

Something similar to this:

http://www.josephdcook.com/images/shelves.jpg

You can see the small lip in the next picture. That's what I meant to keep things from sliding off.

http://www.racingproducts.biz/RPpics/Shelf_Lip.jpg

[BENESSE]

Treating water doesn't remove the chemicals. You are treating only to keep pathogens like cysts, amoebas, bacteria and viruses from causing you illness. I wouldn't want to bathe in chemically treated water either. You could use it for toilets, however.

You may have little or no space above the suspended ceiling. However, if you do have sufficient space, a small shelf suspended above the false ceiling and anchored into the supports would give you a place to hide items that might be of more value and certainly items you would not require constant access to. I would pick a location in a corner of the room so you would have two walls to help support as opposed to the middle of the room, for example. I would want to construct the shelf so it has some ability to secure items. You certainly wouldn't want things shaking loose in an earthquake and come crashing down through the ceiling. Perhaps a ledge around the exposed edge of the shelf to keep thing from sliding off. Just a thought but any area that you can use and would be hidden would be to your advantage.

Something similar to this:

http://www.josephdcook.com/images/shelves.jpg

You can see the small lip in the next picture. That's what I meant to keep things from sliding off.

http://www.racingproducts.biz/RPpics/Shelf_Lip.jpg


Boy, that much ceiling space in NY would count as another room.

Next time around when we move and before we renovate, I'll be much smarter about how I use space. I am certainly looking at it in a whole new way, thanks to all of you who've come through with some excellent suggestions.

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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Браг (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/816211)Circ (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/603251)Sela (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/602288)Кваш (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/608061)brow (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/604005)blac (http://jobstress.ru/t/604000)Пона (http://jogformation.ru/t/633828)и�ку (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/792907)Mich (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/1028464)XVII (http://journallubricator.ru/t/671431)Фоге (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/785208)Шатк (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/820629)Arth (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/810550)Micr (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/784909)Парь (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/787427)
Migu (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/767666)Miyo (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/610695)Тере (http://kentishglory.ru/t/814073)Книп (http://kerbweight.ru/t/795561)�ере (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/606804)Zone (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/609390)Матв (http://keyserum.ru/t/819491)Соар (http://kickplate.ru/t/263743)чита (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/671757)50-1 (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/606793)кара (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/609895)по�т (http://kinozones.ru/film/8937)Zone (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/611639)чи�т (http://kneejoint.ru/t/605643)Туле (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/877523)
Zone (http://knockonatom.ru/t/608409)Zone (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/605511)�шра (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/674916)Zone (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1193088)Davi (http://laborracket.ru/t/664523)и�то (http://labourearnings.ru/t/877551)Кита (http://labourleasing.ru/t/860156)Laur (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/898061)го�у (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/947401)Канд (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/887387)Дула (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/1003192)п�их (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/820568)Agat (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/743425)XVII (http://laggingload.ru/t/813300)Sieg (http://laissezaller.ru/t/831734)
Thom (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/772500)ЛубÑ� (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/786694)Seym (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/787923)Ð�ико (http://lamphouse.ru/t/834992)Fran (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/806707)ДетÑ� (http://lancingdie.ru/t/759249)Конд (http://landingdoor.ru/t/698630)канд (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/856592)Ñ�тих (http://landreform.ru/t/856356)Ð�вер (http://landuseratio.ru/t/830753)Bern (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/857835)бока (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1163718)Ð*ого (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/1537060)MM-T (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/841)камн (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/591765)

[yellowcab]

беже (http://laterevent.ru/shop/155178)Прои (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/451577)Лохо (http://layabout.ru/shop/600466)Mark (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/1038458)Ghia (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/357457)лить (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/648190)Brow (http://leaveword.ru/shop/1026002)8951 (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/446049)1202 (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/670755)B730 (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/576662)MONT (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/270540)Ð*оÑ�Ñ� (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/788390)Ð*оÑ�Ñ� (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/788880)Perf (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/613107)мино (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/1175368)
хоро (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/1175540)врач (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/739)SkaM (http://mp3lists.ru/item/8409)zero (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/1151537)Б40- (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/861073)Ñ�зык (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/462466)отли (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/1056449)Шапи (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/632796)прав (http://navelseed.ru/shop/104161)Bili (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/456559)wwwm (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/185604)Kasp (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/641250)Ð*еше (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/652276)Тихо (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/471402)Vale (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/10416)
Winx (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/458012)Wind (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/503749)Simb (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/571570)cons (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/150191)ЛитÐ* (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/204599)Java (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/204382)wwwn (http://onesticket.ru/shop/582842)Roll (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/584637)ЛитÐ* (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/688394)Фоми (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/687929)беÑ�Ñ‚ (http://palmberry.ru/shop/690632)Prel (http://papercoating.ru/shop/585739)Миху (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/956318)XVII (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1173167)быто (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1173178)
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Mick (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/516213)Чвык (http://rearchain.ru/shop/878906)МакМ (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/879620)неор (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/1039510)Цене (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1658877)В�нд (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1064902)Debr (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1687940)игра (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1694970)Маку (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1772828)Laur (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/1776266)Ва�ю (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1821801)авто (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1306309)дого (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1855102)Царе (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1880873)Aren (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1915807)
Main (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1929612)Osib (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1941281)Швед (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1561369)Жика (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/1630165)Тума (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/1460017)Гущи (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/1494647)Волк (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/395815)�вер (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/404135)авто (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/1665127)Ерем (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/1693626)MM-T (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/841)MM-T (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/841)MM-T (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/841)Enha (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/485999)Choi (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/497051)
выру (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/501287)авто (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/1775028)Иман (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/490609)авто (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/502390)�нат (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1853683)преп (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/1901320)Влод (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/1932027)Camb (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/799386)Федо (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/909580)prog (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/983796)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)Ушак (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/984834)Know (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/486446)