emergency handling and basic understanding of a Commericial Airliner

[Airbus340]

Hello,
Well if anyone wanted to learn about flying a commercial airliner in an emergency situation or were ever curious about questions. I am sorry that is the only survival contribution I can make. I can explain instruments to you and what things do. Not sure that is a big help but it may be helpful.:bat:

Rob L

[Ken]

You're kiddin', right? :innocent:

I'd LOVE to learn as much as you want to post about this subject! :clap:

[Airbus340]

Yes Ken, :clap: actually I was very much so:)God, I hope people wouldn't think we would want them to think we have that little faith, that we would need passengers to fly our aircraft.hahaha very funny thought though. But it was in reference to the fact, that no one would want to learn how to fly a plane in an emergency, they would hope we would still be in control :) Sorry, kind of a pilot joke. Hope it wasn't too badly misunderstood, that is why added the bat at the end to try to reference it to being a joke. :D

However, I would be willing to answer, basic questions on a serious note, but do reserve the right, to choose to not answer certain things for security reasons.

Rob L

[Ken]

Bottom line - I'll fly in a six passanger plane over an airliner any day of the week. Yep, I've read the statistics.

I know that YOU are highly trained to perform a very difficult job. I know that you fly the thing and aren't responsible for other parts of the operation.

However, you ride up front.

From MY perspective (in my seat, so to speak) all I'm doing is riding in a glorified cattle-car, because that's how ALL airlines treat passengers today. I used to enjoy flying. For the last 15 years, I only do it out of necessity.

The attitude of, and service provided by, the entire industry sucks.

Nonetheless, I'm sure that there are many things we could learn about airliner operation that would be useful. Radio operation - how to contact air traffic controllers, etc.

How many times have non-pilots successfully landed a plane?

[Airbus340]

Wow! Ken,
now please tell me how you really feel :) hehee I can certainly understand your feelings, but as you mentioned, I am still only the pilot. my job is too get you from point A to point B as safely as possible in some of the most congested airspace in the world, in all sorts of inclement weather and do my very best to keep you alive, if the worst case were to happen and a malfunction does occur. By the way thank you for the compliments you paid my occupattion and the respect you have for it's inherent difficulties.

in 22 yrs of flying as a commercial pilot I have accomplished that successfully. so overall I am very proud of the job me and my colleagues do, despite what we face that hinders us. Maintenance, staff, administration, ATC, weather, poor private pilots, malfunctions, cutbacks and older equipment without upgrades.

As far as your question to my knowledge none, that were completely untrained. Some have that had some experience, but none that I know of otherwise.

Rob L


Bottom line - I'll fly in a six passanger plane over an airliner any day of the week. Yep, I've read the statistics.

I know that YOU are highly trained to perform a very difficult job. I know that you fly the thing and aren't responsible for other parts of the operation.

However, you ride up front.

From MY perspective (in my seat, so to speak) all I'm doing is riding in a glorified cattle-car, because that's how ALL airlines treat passengers today. I used to enjoy flying. For the last 15 years, I only do it out of necessity.

The attitude of, and service provided by, the entire industry sucks.

Nonetheless, I'm sure that there are many things we could learn about airliner operation that would be useful. Radio operation - how to contact air traffic controllers, etc.

How many times have non-pilots successfully landed a plane?

[crashdive123]

Any person, trained or untrained can land any aircraft made. It's that successful part that sometimes gets in the way though.

[SARKY]

I have a question, I've got 10,000+ hours as a flight engineer in P-3 Orions and about 1,000 of that is in the left seat. The Orion uses cables and hydralics, so how does the "feel' of the flight controls differ in a fly by wire?

[palm stalker]

welcome airbus 340. i know u post ur thread with humor,but as a person with limited hrs(25)25 yrs ago in 152,172, and airo 100,i often wonderd if i could take the left seat and make a difference in a jumbo jet with no crew..with 150 to 250 people abored,shurly there would be more qualified,ex jet jocks,even a cfi2.but id try.if i could change to 121.5 ,i think i could declare a mayday and get some help..landing at 70 vrs 170 is a whole new set of rules. nice to have u abored, im sure u will have many questions to answer..

[Airbus340]

OK Ken,
Let me try to help abit, every a/c type is different, especially between the Boeing, MD, Airbus and other more obscure models like Russian Antonovs or Tupolevs etc.
Ok lets start with some basic info, the center section between the pilots is called the pedestal. this is in almost every type of commercial aircraft where your radios will sit. In the A340 and A320 series that I fly there is a redundant set of radios in the overhead and on the F/O (first officer's side of the pedestal) the photo I have provided is an example of a radio.

On the radio you will see many words such as VHF/UHF COM 1 Com 2 Com 3 VOR 1 VOR 2 ADF etc all you are interested in is the one that say COM 1. Now on that radio ensure that the dial is turned to say COM 1 now you will see a set of numbers in the display something like 122.80 these are frequency numbers.

COM 1 is Communication Radio 1 and COM 2 means that radio is set to a second frequency. DO NOT TOUCH ANYTHING OTHER THAN COM RADIOS! you change the radio frequency by turning the (IAD) International air distress frequency 121.5 which is where our COM 2 radios are almost always set and the Military (MAD) is 243. Put on the Capt's head set, you will see a button Now if you begin transmitting on the 121.5 frequency you will hear the word "ON GUARD" This means you are on the emergency so at that point you will clearly say whatever your Airline is and flight number example.

This is AIR CANADA Flight 4307 To New York PAN,PAN,(First use Pan to show you are not in immediate danger at that moment) MAYDAY,MAYDAY (This then shows them that you however are imminent danger and need immediate assistance) I am declaring an Emergency I am state your name,...... I am a passenger and not a trained pilot.The pilots have been shot (for example) 1 Dead, 1 Incapacitated, we have control of the plane. At this point you will say 6 things to them:

1: Look at the centre of the console you will see something with numbers it will say Speed Heading Altitude and V/S plus other buttons DO NOT TOUCH THIS! Only read to them the numbers example you say the Autopilot system (Airbus FCU) says Speed .82 Heading --- Altitude 36000 V/S---
(the --- means the plane is following a pre programmed format and is in automated mode)

2: You look to your far left from Capt seat and there are 2 TV Screens/monitors in front of you. On far left screen (Screen 1) Has a blue top and brown/green bottom and white line through thats PFD (Primary Flight Display) numbers on left vertically are Speed and on the Right show Altitude
(Tell radio these numbers by saying PFD shows speed .82 holding and Altitude 36000 and holding (holding is if its not going up or down) otherwise you would say climbing or descending.The white line in middle is you.
The 2nd screen on the left Screen 2 is ND (Navigational Display screen)
this tells you where you are on a map system.

3: Look down to the pedestal beside you, you will see 2 Calculator looking things *TOUCH NOTHING* Now on the screen of the calculator you'll see a bunch of information. Tell the radio " CDU reads then read clearly from top to bottom the page you see on the calculator) This is very important.

4: Look in the very center screen between Capt and F/O on front console, your looking for a number thats says FOB or EFOB tell them Fuel on board is this number, Now look for a letter FF if it is a 2 Eng it will say FF twice a 4 Eng FF 4 times it will say something like 7260.Tell them FF per engine is this number. Now they have all information, critical to getting you down safely. allot of aircraft have an auto land system, all you have to is follow radio instructions, the plane will do the rest.

5: Tell radio the current staff and passenger situation.
explain what exactly happened and what got you to this point.

6: Follow all instructions

Hope this helped out some Ken

Feel free to ask any questions you like

Rob L

[Airbus340]

Thank you Palm Stalker,
I flew 747 200-400 and they are not super user friendly, pretty complex piece of aviation. The 777 is much easier to fly. My baby is the Airbus 320 330 and 340 and I would say honestly, you'd have about a 5% of getting down with the right help in a 47. In a Bus you'd have a much higher success rate prob 40% , but of course more hours and exp you have the higher the survivability, so I just hope you don't have any problems in a plane period , but if you do sir a bus would be easier to fly, providing you follow instructions perfectly.

Good luck with your flying and thank you for asking.
Rob L



welcome airbus 340. i know u post ur thread with humor,but as a person with limited hrs(25)25 yrs ago in 152,172, and airo 100,i often wonderd if i could take the left seat and make a difference in a jumbo jet with no crew..with 150 to 250 people abored,shurly there would be more qualified,ex jet jocks,even a cfi2.but id try.if i could change to 121.5 ,i think i could declare a mayday and get some help..landing at 70 vrs 170 is a whole new set of rules. nice to have u abored, im sure u will have many questions to answer..

[Rick]

Rob - I think you come on board with a lot more skills here than you give yourself credit for. Things like meteorology, prevailing winds, electronics, communication, navigation. I probably missed a bunch but you get my drift. If several of us were caught off gaurd in the wilderness, you might not knap up a perfect arrow head but we all might turn to you for advice on the weather.

[Airbus340]

Wow! Rick,
That certainly is quite a compliment, considering the company I seem to be in.The only advice I will give on weather is stay 20 miles from a thunderhead if you can while flying :) first off CrashDive123 I could not agree with you more, anyone can land just is everyone and everything where and how it should be is indeed the question, an excellent point.

Sarky, that indeed is an impressive amount of air hours for sure, you were part of the crew I'm guessing or an officer? Now in regards to your question, let me try to answer it this way, every aircraft has it's own control feels, some yokes push more, some rudders are more stubborn, some FBW sticks are smoother than others,they all tend to have their own peculiarities if you will, having never typed on a P3 Orion, I personally can not compare. But I can tell you that the difference between FBW and analog cabling system really in feel there is very little difference with regards to resistance pressure.
The reason they are very close is remember after all in an analog cable system, you are really only moving control valves not really the cables like you would for example in a WWI aircraft or tail dragger. You are still dealing with hydraulic pressures, so no real difference in feel exists.

Where the real difference lies in the FBW laws, A Floor etc but no Sarky, no actual feel difference is evident, but remember a 747 feels different than a 737 or 757 just by design, even though they are all analog systems and not digital as in FBW.

I hope I was able to answer your question.

By the way if you look at the picture I provided of my office :) and wish to know what anything is or does, please feel free to ask.

If anything you ask is of a security or sensitive nature, please understand, Even though you may not feel it is, I will decline to answer. but ask anyway about things all I can do is say sorry classified :)

Rob L


Rob - I think you come on board with a lot more skills here than you give yourself credit for. Things like meteorology, prevailing winds, electronics, communication, navigation. I probably missed a bunch but you get my drift. If several of us were caught off guard in the wilderness, you might not knap up a perfect arrow head but we all might turn to you for advice on the weather.

[Skysoldier]

Hummph... man was never meant to fly! That's why God created parachutes!

[rebel]

A couple questions A-340. What's being done for the pitot tubes on the 340 at air canada and how long will the standby adi last on battery power? thanks and welcome to the pack.

[Airbus340]

Hi Rebel, thank you for the welcome, anything regarding company maintenance issues really needs to be asked directly to them.But since we mothballed the 340s and I got kicked back into 320 and 330, and it's been quite a while now, I have no real idea what they are doing in that area.Only reason I still refer to the 340 so much is my affinity for them, because it was the aircraft I flew probably most hours. But truthfully the 330 is basically a 2 engine version of same thing in many details. As far as battery question the A340 batteries are rated at 3000 hrs however in the event of power loss the standby instruments would be compensated by power through the RAT (Ram Air turbine or ADG) In the event of full engine failure. It is essential the aircraft have a means of sustaining emergency power to critical instruments. But batteries on an A340 are rated at 3000hrs but unfortunately I have seen the contrary on many occasions that I'm not willing to discuss further here.
I hope this helped answer your questions somewhat Rebel. However personally I'm not quite sure how in any way that those questions would be beneficial personally, but hoped I helped abit.

Rob L


A couple questions A-340. What's being done for the pitot tubes on the 340 at air canada and how long will the standby adi last on battery power? thanks and welcome to the pack.

[SARKY]

I was a flight engineer, I did the safety preflight/postflight, fueling, weight & balance, fuel log, started the engines, emergency procedures pertaing to the engines, hydralics, and airframe and lastly I was ADULT SUPERVISION for the pilots who really wanted to be fighter jocks. I was also an instructor flight engineer, check flight "engineer", QAR for the squadron, ran the Phase maintenance crew. I wore a lot of dam hats when I was flying.
Oh yeah, 12 overseas deployments and hundreds of detachments.

[Airbus340]

Well for all those hats sir my hat only 1 is definitely off to you. Out of curiosity what is the CG/GTOW and VREF on the P3 Orion? I always enjoyed seeeing that plane flying by when it is used by DHS in US. Well it sounds like your one guy I wouldn't want to mess with.

Rob L


I was a flight engineer, I did the safety preflight/postflight, fueling, weight & balance, fuel log, started the engines, emergency procedures pertaing to the engines, hydralics, and airframe and lastly I was ADULT SUPERVISION for the pilots who really wanted to be fighter jocks. I was also an instructor flight engineer, check flight "engineer", QAR for the squadron, ran the Phase maintenance crew. I wore a lot of dam hats when I was flying.
Oh yeah, 12 overseas deployments and hundreds of detachments.

[catfish10101]

Flying saftey = YOU AINT GETING ME ON NO PLANE, HELLICOPTER, OR ANY OTHER FLYING THING FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER!!!!! So therefore, I am never afraid that I may be needed to land a commercial (or any other) plane.

[Ken]

allot of aircraft have an auto land system, all you have to is follow radio instructions, the plane will do the rest.

Rob L

This is what I was looking for! Thanks, Rob, that was a great post.

So when do you think airlines will be equiped with remote controlled landing capability - like UAVs - for use in emergencies?

[oly]

A few thing that I have noticed is

1 That its not a good sign to see the mechanic and the pilots having a conversation:sneaky2:

2 Wind shear is not a good thing

3 Blackhawks dont operate correctly when they come across a down draft

4 There are an average of about 4 to 5 in flight emergencies called in per week per

5 Whinny passengers shut up or just leave and dont return during a flight delay when you tell them that I would rather keep the aircraft intacted during takeoffs and landings:clap:

6 Its funny when you say WHAT WAS THAT?:innocent:

7 Its not a good thing to start gaging when you see another passenger turning pail :innocent:

8 Did I mention :innocent::)

Come be a passenger with me Ken, we could go visit 2D, I have never got roadrash from flying (aircraft that is and no superhero jokes either) yet.

[Ken]

Come be a passenger with me Ken, we could go visit 2D, I have never got roadrash from flying (aircraft that is and no superhero jokes either) yet.

Okay, but only if we can fly in one of these when we "visit" him. :innocent:

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/photos/uncategorized/2008/04/07/750pxb1b_lancer_and_cluster_bombs.jpg

[oly]

Yes we can lay down a carpet for him with that for sure

[Airbus340]

Without a doubt, you are some very funny guys :)
Glad I could help Ken.

Rob L

[rebel]

Hi Rebel, thank you for the welcome, anything regarding company maintenance issues really needs to be asked directly to them.But since we mothballed the 340s and I got kicked back into 320 and 330, and it's been quite a while now, I have no real idea what they are doing in that area.Only reason I still refer to the 340 so much is my affinity for them, because it was the aircraft I flew probably most hours. But truthfully the 330 is basically a 2 engine version of same thing in many details. As far as battery question the A340 batteries are rated at 3000 hrs however in the event of power loss the standby instruments would be compensated by power through the RAT (Ram Air turbine or ADG) In the event of full engine failure. It is essential the aircraft have a means of sustaining emergency power to critical instruments. But batteries on an A340 are rated at 3000hrs but unfortunately I have seen the contrary on many occasions that I'm not willing to discuss further here.
I hope this helped answer your questions somewhat Rebel. However personally I'm not quite sure how in any way that those questions would be beneficial personally, but hoped I helped abit.

Rob L

The pitot system has been changing in all Airbus' for the past two years. The standby ADI will last about 5 minutes on battery power unless you have the new mod. Then, a little longer. It's just basic info for the bus, not maintenance only.

[Airbus340]

Actually Rebel,
You apparently know more about it then I do :) And I guess you should be getting my paycheck then. Standby instruments are run by RAT in Airbus in the eventuality of total engine failure. the only reason your 5 min window as your wishing to point out is so that the computers can be reset FAC and FADEC. But the Rat is used for any real emergency Standby power, battery is not relied on really at all. Believe it or not on more than 3 occasions the ADI on standby failed in flight. Personally I was under the impression you were asking about the actual life of the battery, I am sorry but that is what I understood you asking. Because Stdby instruments are much more than just an ADI, But never the less.

To be frankly honest with you, your little I wanna know if you know game is truly not the least bit amusing. If you believe you know the answer to a question, then why ask it, except to attempt be more knowledgeable or insult someones credibility. I did not come to this forum, to have some person I know nothing about, attempt to discredit or disrespect me. So if this is how you treat visitors Rebel, you definitely need to re evaluate your bedside manner sir. I only opened this option as a respectful gesture , to the forum membership, merely as a courtesy. apparently you feel you are much more qualified than I am, which is terrific, you will certainly save me many hours of typing. Thank you for taking that responsibility off my hands. By the way , just for clarification, you stated the pitot tubes on the 340 for Air Canada. well as I clearly stated to you, the company mothballed the 340 out of main fleet a while back, in which we got moved into 330-321 320 and 767. So only maintenance would be able to tell you whats going on with those a/c.

Ken, I apologize, but I am extremely insulted and disrespected, I did not come into your forum to jump through hoops for some person I have never met, or to talk about what I do to make a living, I came in to learn about things, I know very little about and in return only offered any minor services I could to show my appreciation. apparently Rebel has other plans, or feels he must play some sort of I gotcha game or what I don't know and frankly Sir, as long as I get my paycheck I don't care.
I know what I do and how its done and what training I needed to do to get there.
I was unaware that I would have to deal with this sort of what I would consider as a personal affront, for what reason I don't know. but from now on apparently Rebel, will answer all your questions, regarding the subject. I'm sorry if some way I caused a problem with my offer.

By the way Rebel you may wish to in the future, to re word your questions or do more efficient homework on specific company updates. Oh and in closing rebel only just recently since the Air France situation has a company memorandum come down directly from Airbus recommending changes in the pitot tubes, because it is suspected that it has been the reason for many false speed readings that have occurred.

The original AD (Airbus directive) came in 2007 but was only a suggested maintenance consideration at that time, recommended to be accomplished by 2009, I hadn't personally received that updated PIREP and SB until after Jun 1 just to be clear. Up until then it was just talk among companies. The Airbus directive even though stated as mandatory changeover and evaluation a grace period was given. only in light of AF disaster was the AD being pushed. Thats why the updated SB from Director of Maintenance Some actually made change overs some just discussed options. All models were being discussed but the SB AD was primarily 320 321 330. Rebel you can find all battery info in updated FODD and AOM if your needing any further info. But good luck Rebel and hope to see you in the skies sometime, I'll wave as we pass :)

Regards
Rob L


The pitot system has been changing in all Airbus' for the past two years. The standby ADI will last about 5 minutes on battery power unless you have the new mod. Then, a little longer. It's just basic info for the bus, not maintenance only.

[crashdive123]

Airbus340 - I don't see that Rebel insulted you or showed you any disrespect. In your original post you said
Well if anyone wanted to learn about flying a commercial airliner in an emergency situation or were ever curious about questions. He had a question that involved aircraft maintenance. Afterall, due to the AirFrance tragedy, it was in the news quite a bit. You, in your answer referred him to maintenance. He replied with some tech data - that's all I saw as the reader of a thread. You are a pilot, not a maintenance guy. I would expect the driver of the city bus I get on to get me from point a to b, but refer maintenance type questions to maintenance.

Maybe if you ask Rebel (via pm might be a good idea) what he meant by it, things would be cleared up. No reason to get upset over something if there is nothing.

[Sarge47]

Crash is right, as a Transit bus driver I refer all mechanical questions to maintenance. "I drive 'em, I don't fix 'em." BTW, Airbus dude, you started this thread, and that opened up this particular keg of worms. Please note the PM I sent to you. :cool2:

[rebel]

A-340,

I'm kind of sorry that I rustled your tail feathers. My original question was wanting to know what Air Canada was doing about the bus issues. It seemed to me that we were getting technical manual information and maintenance referrals that anyone could give so, I dug deeper. I like to know who I'm dealing with and if their information is reliable. BTW, your last post was good.

[SARKY]

Well for all those hats sir my hat only 1 is definitely off to you. Out of curiosity what is the CG/GTOW and VREF on the P3 Orion? I always enjoyed seeeing that plane flying by when it is used by DHS in US. Well it sounds like your one guy I wouldn't want to mess with.

Rob L

Without having a weight and balance slip stick, I couldn't tell you what the CG would be, max GWTO is 139,760lbs of that almost half is fuel. When the P-3 is maxed out, the CG runs way aft. I would usually have the 3rd pilot and 2nd engineer up in the flightstation. The 3rd pilot would sit on the fwd. radar cabinet and the 2nd FE would be on the circuit breaker panel. this would shift the CG forward by 200lbs each x the difference in inches where they would normally sit on takeoff. (wt. x arm = moment).
What is VREF?

[canid]

but in turbulence they made it look as easy as an video slot machine. actually, i think the prop they used for the instrument panel was a video slot machine...

[rebel]

What is VREF?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_speeds

[finallyME]

Wow, you fly a bus...I'm sorry.

(my dad has worked for Boeing for a while, so, I have to throw in the mandatory airbus joke :clap:)

[Airbus340]

Rebel,
It seems if that is the case that in fact I owe you a sincere apology, I am sure you can understand how I may have come to the conclusions I did or at least hope you do. it would be if I said you said " so what is the gear ratio on the ABC automobile and I say well its 123 but you should actually check with the mechanic because that motor is no longer used.Your next post is "um no is 345! and it always has been. And no mechanics necessary this is basic auto shop! Aviation is my life and so not knowing you from a hole in the ground, I just found it strange you would be asking such obscure questions as pitot changes and battery life etc. I said to myself this is very unusual questions, for someone just wanting to know basic emergency info on an aircraft.

So apparently , I received the situation in incorrectly and for that I am indeed sorry. It was asked of me several times related to this matter, that I put out the offer to answer questions so why be surprised when I get them.
OK let me address that, I was referring to basic questions about the handling of a commercial aircraft in event of an emergency.The pitot tubes can in noway be controlled or have anything to do with a person attempting to fly an aircraft in an emergency, because in fact the static pitot ports are outside the aircraft and are only connected to the instruments through a series of tubes. The only button in the flight deck that can have anything to do with pitot tubes is pitot heat. this is to heat the pitot tubes and prevent ice building, thus blocking the port and giving false reading to instruments. So you can see why I would find this very obscure. But in light of Air France, the term pitot has been used somewhat frequently, so now this is understandable.

For those of you who don't know what a pitot tube or static pitot port is, to put it simply a metal tube that faces into the oncoming air stream and senses pressure changes this in fact is attached to the instrumentation and gives a reading of the aircraft's Airspeed for example. The problem is if this port is blocked some how, then the computers on board will believe something is happening for example higher airspeeds, or stall etc and I in turn would then to circumvent the problem, initiate a procedure that could be catastrophic. this is all because I was told by the computers something was occurring that in fact was not. And at 37000 feet middle of night over water which has no navigational radar reference, this can be disastrous.That is why before any internal checklists are executed, a walk around must be made to inspect the aircraft personally. The brakes are observed for leaks, tires for wear or damage and pitot tubes are checked to ensure no blockages,leading edges for damage from bird strikes and debris,skin wearing, abnormalities, exterior lighting etc That is why if you look out you will see us walking around the aircraft, this is what we are doing.Now you may say well doesn't maintenance and ground crew do that? Well they are not the one flying the aircraft at 37000 ft I am, so I have much more invested in the checks accuracy than they do. I have my crew and your families and friends to think about and myself, they don't.

thank you to all the mods that addressed this small concern and especially Ken, who is truly a great example of this forums willingness to solve problems.
But also to Crash and Rick as well, I found your assistance refreshing and helpful. Sarge no offense meant here, but I found your approach far less inviting and much more aggressive than other moderator's attempts to resolve the issue. Sorry this is merely my observation.

Sincerely again apologize, Rebel
Rob L


A-340,

I'm kind of sorry that I rustled your tail feathers. My original question was wanting to know what Air Canada was doing about the bus issues. It seemed to me that we were getting technical manual information and maintenance referrals that anyone could give so, I dug deeper. I like to know who I'm dealing with and if their information is reliable. BTW, your last post was good.

[Airbus340]

Sarky,
Thank you for the deeper understanding of the Orion. VREF generally means speed that aircraft rotates at, Then speed where if aircraft lost enging could continue to fly V1 -VR- V2 Was actually curious what rotation and V2 speed was on the P3. Also VREF refers to what speeds a/c is clean gear and flaps up etc. Thank you for the info SARKY.

Regards
Rob L



Well for all those hats sir my hat only 1 is definitely off to you. Out of curiosity what is the CG/GTOW and VREF on the P3 Orion? I always enjoyed seeeing that plane flying by when it is used by DHS in US. Well it sounds like your one guy I wouldn't want to mess with.

Rob L

Without having a weight and balance slip stick, I couldn't tell you what the CG would be, max GWTO is 139,760lbs of that almost half is fuel. When the P-3 is maxed out, the CG runs way aft. I would usually have the 3rd pilot and 2nd engineer up in the flightstation. The 3rd pilot would sit on the fwd. radar cabinet and the 2nd FE would be on the circuit breaker panel. this would shift the CG forward by 200lbs each x the difference in inches where they would normally sit on takeoff. (wt. x arm = moment).
What is VREF?

[Rick]

No problem, Rob. No blood, no foul. I am glad we cleared up any misunderstanding.

[crashdive123]

Glad you decided to stay around. Sometimes it is a bit difficult when we are very passionate, or knowledgeable about an area of study to remember that not everybody shares that knowledge base. When you said:
The pitot tubes can in noway be controlled or have anything to do with a person attempting to fly an aircraft in an emergency, because in fact the static pitot ports are outside the aircraft and are only connected to the instruments through a series of tubes. I learned something new, and now know that the air crew cannot correct a problem with them in flight. Not something I was aware of before you said it.

It's not unlike those that have spent time in the military. Sometimes when discussing an issue the terms have to be "civilianized" so that all are working from the same base of knowledge.

Again - glad you're staying around.

[canid]

...and are only connected to the instruments through a series of tubes.


the internet..?

[Sarge47]

Sarge no offense meant here, but I found your approach far less inviting and much more aggressive than other moderator's attempts to resolve the issue. Sorry this is merely my observation.

Sincerely again apologize, Rebel
Rob LYup! That's me! I'm a "hard-liner!" Always have been, always will be. I don't "walk on eggshells" around any of the members here unless I sense that they have some sort of mental illness. Given the fact that you're a pilot I know that you are subject to periodic medical exams so you shouldn't have any. I have nothing against you. I don't fly, & refuse to because of the fact that if a plane has a problem 35,000 feet in the air you can't just pull over to the curb & check it out! That has nothing to do with you. Here's the thing, the membership here is the best! The ones who stay do so because they learn or teach & have the intestinal fortitude to stick it out. We have many members on here who are professional in many different areas. I'm sure that a commercial pilot would be a valuable asset, but that's up to you; you're an adult, you make the decision. :cool2:

[canid]

ted stevens joke, nobody..?

ok, i'll go see if i can get my day job back.

[finallyME]

If you go to a party, how do you know there is a pilot in the room?
...
...
...
...
...
...
He'll tell you...:smash::smash::smash::clap::clap::clap:

[canid]

haha.

a month later, how do you know a hippie had been at that same party..?

[Airbus340]

Well Sarge,
I think were Sorted then. Sorry to hear your feelings on flying but certainly respect them. Flying overall is 1000X safer than driving, but you are right, when you do crash the floor is allot farther away in an aircraft :)

Rob


Yup! That's me! I'm a "hard-liner!" Always have been, always will be. I don't "walk on eggshells" around any of the members here unless I sense that they have some sort of mental illness. Given the fact that you're a pilot I know that you are subject to periodic medical exams so you shouldn't have any. I have nothing against you. I don't fly, & refuse to because of the fact that if a plane has a problem 35,000 feet in the air you can't just pull over to the curb & check it out! That has nothing to do with you. Here's the thing, the membership here is the best! The ones who stay do so because they learn or teach & have the intestinal fortitude to stick it out. We have many members on here who are professional in many different areas. I'm sure that a commercial pilot would be a valuable asset, but that's up to you; you're an adult, you make the decision. :cool2:

[Airbus340]

No thank you Rick, for your understanding and time.

Rob


No problem, Rob. No blood, no foul. I am glad we cleared up any misunderstanding.

[Sarge47]

Well Sarge,
I think were Sorted then. Sorry to hear your feelings on flying but certainly respect them. Flying overall is 1000X safer than driving, but you are right, when you do crash the floor is allot farther away in an aircraft :)

RobGreat, thanks a lot, now I'm afraid of driving as well! (just kidding) For years I thought I was afraid of heights, but no, that's not it. Then I thought it was the fear of falling that bothered me, but no again! It's the sudden stop at the end that gets me! :innocent:

Okay, maybe I mis-spoke when i spoke to you earlier, so let me put it this way. We get all types of people on here, and you're going to find that some of them will rub you the wrong way sooner or later. I've been criticized for "lack of diplomacy" in the past and will, undoubtedly, be criticized for it in the future. I don't care; I'm not here to salve anybody's "wittle itty-bitty feelwings." I'm here to help keep them alive! I don't take that lightly. I also understand that the kind of people we get on this forum are the kind that don't fit the mold that a normal society expects; they're NOT sheeple! So I take them as I find them, and expect the same from them in regards to me. Judging from what you've confided in me, if I ever have a brain-fart and decide to fly I doubt I'd be in safer hands than yours, and that should be telling you something. That being said, you'll never be getting any "warm & fuzzies" from me. I realize this can make me unpopular, so what? We all have different personalities & I don't expect anyone to change theirs to suit me, why should others expect me to change mine for them? "Politically correct" is a term that many on here do not adhere to. I don't say this to be mean, but to tell you what you might expect from time to time. My "aggressive attitude" has stopped Trolls & Spammers dead in their tracks. Actually I hope you hang around, but that's not up to me. I think, after you've been here awhile, you'll see what I'm talking about. Remember, It's the "Wolf-Pack", (& bears) not the "pussy-cats." :cool2:

[SARKY]

As far as Vref, that would depend on 2 factors, the weight of the aircraft at the time of landing and wether or not we were using approach flaps or landing flaps (that is how they are designated at the flap handle) we had a landing speed chart attached to the overhead which had the speeds listed by weight using full/landing flaps with airspeed additions for approach flaps and no flaps (obviously higher landing speeds than full flaps)

[Rick]

See? That Sarge is just a big ole lovable lunk a munk.

[Airbus340]

sarge,
I will most certainly accept that as a huge compliment coming from you. SARKY, yes all VREF is calculated by weights :sneaky2::tongue_smilie: and dirty speeds is VREF but never mind ,I'm sorry I shouldn't have asked you that question it's kind of unfair, seeing as you weren't the PF so my bad. But thank you for the info anyhow.

Regards
Rob



See? That Sarge is just a big ole lovable lunk a munk.

[Airbus340]

Wow Finally,
Then I am sure glad I don't go to parties then :eyepoke:I'd sure hate to run into one of the egomaniacs :)
Thanks for the advance warning. :clap:
Rob L.


If you go to a party, how do you know there is a pilot in the room?
...
...
...
...
...
...
He'll tell you...:smash::smash::smash::clap::clap::clap:

[Ken]

Great, thanks a lot, now I'm afraid of driving as well!

Not as afraid as we are of you driving. Just sayin'. :innocent:

[yellowcab]

Прод (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/1272)228.7 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/316)Bett (http://eyesvision.ru/better-eyesight-magazine-better-eyesight-1922-03)CHAP (http://eyesvisions.com)Summ (http://factoringfee.ru/t/1201421)MPEG (http://filmzones.ru/t/1025293)Гай� (http://gadwall.ru/t/1009973)Иллю (http://gaffertape.ru/t/1102339)Слуц (http://gageboard.ru/t/1095728)Gita (http://gagrule.ru/t/1024194)хоро (http://gallduct.ru/t/1163258)Mick (http://galvanometric.ru/t/1230107)Тимо (http://gangforeman.ru/t/1241389)тек� (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/1532186)Tesc (http://garbagechute.ru/t/1144494)
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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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