Misguided Liberal Crap

[Ken]

There have been a few posts in various threads lately that suggest that America is wrong in the way that we view and treat terrorists, such as the Guantanamo prisoners, and because of our outrage over the release of Abdel Basset Ali Megrahi.

Bullsh!t. I am so sick of hearing that misguided liberal crap!

As a nation, we are far too restrained in our efforts. We worry about "civil rights" and "international law" and "international opinion" and what the CIA and Blackwater have done and about not "humiliating" the sensitive feelings of these murdering bastards.

Here's the bottom line:

1. You are either a criminal terrorist or you are not. If you in any way support or aid a terrorist, that makes you one yourself.

2. The same principle applies to nations that support or harbor terrorists.

If you are a terrorist or support or aid a terrorist, and one single American is killed or wounded because of your actions, you are our enemy, and we should proclaim our absolute right to hunt you down and kill you or destroy you and then follow through with all of our power. Collateral civilian deaths are your fault, not ours.

If terrorists are operating within your borders and you make no effort to capture them or if your efforts are not successful, then we should proclaim our right to kill these anumals within your borders by whatever means we see fit.

Let me explain how it is in terms even a liberal can understand.

If your son Johnny is shooting his .22 at my kids from your window, you damn well better stop him before I blow his head off. If he hurts one of my kids and you helped him load the gun or you try to protect him after the fact, I'll kill both of you. No, I'm not gonna' wait for the police and give Johnny the chance to take a few more shots. Get it?

We don't have a police department to call when it comes to terrorists. And if you screw with my "family", I don't give a sh!t what anyone else, or any other nation, thinks about what I'm going to do in response.

And by the way - if I see Johnny aiming his gun at my family, I'll take him out BEFORE he gets his first shot off. Don't get in my way.

[doug1980]

Well Ken, tell us what you really think. :) I agree though.

[rebel]

O.K.

I'm going one step further in my Machiavellian thinking and say: If you hurt one of mine, I will hurt 10 of yours. That's what has won wars. When the gen pop cries, then it stops.

[tonester]

ken i agree 100%

[canid]

i would call your attitude extremist. in my eyes, those are terrorist ideologies.

if i met you and you shot off at the mouth like that, even while agreeing in the greater part with you, i'd probably consider you an enemy.

[canid]

let me point out the other side of the coin. if a child, or an ignorant person does something wreckless, dangerous, even violent there is a recourse. it may be to kill him before he does any harm, but it will probably be something more reasonable.

if i where that father, and a child of mine was doing wrong, there's an opportunity somewhere to set things right as best they may be.

even if my child where wrong and you threatened their life, i'd take any action available to stop you. it might not require killing you, but if i did, i'd shed not a tear over your corpse.

[Ken]

i'd take any action available to stop you. it might not require killing you, but if i did, i'd shed not a tear over your corpse.

Exactly.
.

[canid]

no, not exactly. only similar. from your position, i'd be the terrorist, except that i know my actions would be moderated by the situation, and not driven from some notion of total retaliation.

[HOSSFLY]

Some people live by the Law of the Jungle. Some people live by the Law of the Land. I live by the Old Testament EYE FOR A EYE .

[canid]

eye for an eye is about the obligation and moderation of retribution/punishment, not the advocacy of retaliation. how is that relevant?

[Rick]

I'm really torn on this subject. I was raised to believe that America stands for something noble. Something above and beyond the cruelty and inhuman actions of other countries/people. As an American, I resent concepts like torture or "eye for an eye" or retribution. And yet, I'm not naive enough that I know brave men and women having been doing that behind the scenes, to protect this country, probably since it's founding.

Still, I wonder what our position would be if all that retribution occurred here, at home. What would we think if a cruise missile landed in Springfield, Missouri because some country believed we harbored "terrorists"? How would the victim's families view that country? And yet, we think it perfectly okay to sprinkle them around other countries. That seems a bit hypocritical to me.

Now, don't get me wrong. I also think we should squash them like a grape. As I said, I'm really torn on this subject.

During the initial invasion of Europe, Gen. Patton handed down orders to not take prisoners. That's documented and I can offer references if anyone wants. His reasoning was he did not have time or resources to deal with the logistical nightmare of handling prisoners. His high command finally convinced him to relent siting the very real facts that no one would surrender if the KNEW they were going to die anyway and the enemy would begin treating prisoners in the same fashion.

So what does that have to do with this? If we walk onto foreign soil or strike without warning based on our ideologies then we should be prepared to accept the same in return. And where does that end? We've migrated, somehow, from performing surgery with a very sharp scalpel to doing so with a bulldozer. And the world's opinion of us is so reflected.

We have voluntarily placed ourselves in the position of "world cop". First, I don't think we have the right to do that. Second, if we intend to maintain that title then we HAVE to expect to spend enormous resources, both in terms of finance and lives. Third, we have to be willing to make sacrifices at home to perpetuate that role. Again, both in finances and lives. Fourth, we have to be willing to shift our ideologies away from Christian tenants (no discussion of religion intended here. But that is what this country is based on ) to something else. Fifth, we have to be willing to subjugate the citizens of this country and provide ever more power to the federal government. Think of government operations in WWII. Sixth, as we exercise more and more power over other people they become more and more defiant against our "authority". And finally, militaristic governments have always fallen away because of internal disenchantment and constant external pressures. I don't think we want to walk that same path.

I don't have the answers to this "new warfare" and, to some extent, we are developing an answer as we go I think. We've never experienced guerrilla warfare on this scale before. Yet, history shows time and time again the guerrillas almost always win. That part is scary to me.

I think it's time we take a moment and reevaluate who were are as individuals and as a nation. IMHO, if we continue to move in the direction we are headed I can only envision an ever increasing escalation as more and more people want to retaliate against us for what we have done to them.

I fully expect many, perhaps most, of you to disagree with me. That's okay. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm only expressing my opinion on this very controversial subject.

[red lake]

Rick you are expressing well what I tried to in another thread.

[Rick]

I do get what you're saying, RL. I also fully understand why the rest feel the way they do. But we have to step back a moment and remember that we view others from a very selfish set of eyes. It doesn't matter where you live in the world and it doesn't matter if you are viewing your neighbor or another country. You still view with selfish eyes. We just have to remember that not everyone in this world believes the same as us and that doesn't necessarily make them wrong or us wrong, for that matter.

[SARKY]

Having been to more countries than I can count, most of them turd world ****holes, I have a thing or two to say.
1: In general, all people have the same needs and wants
2: There are 3 things in this world that seperate us Politics, Religion, and Sports
3: The people in these terrorist nations have been taught from a very early age that we, The USA, are evil incarnate and must be destroyed at all cost. They can't be reasoned with, they can't be changed, they must be destroyed down to the last man, woman and child.
4: We are NOT a perfect society, BUT we at least are striving towards that goal!
5: Our problems from within, started in the 60's with the free speech movement, These same people that were screaming "Question Authority" are now the professors at the univerities. And because they are in power, they don't want their authority questioned, especially as they ram their indocrination down the throats of our young people.
"Great nations are destroyed from within before they are destroyed from with out"
6: It seems that great pain is the only motivator for the masses, and that includes this great nation!
7: I think that the Neutron bomb is a good thing, It allows for the destruction of the virus within the society but still leaves the foundations intact to be repopulated by reasonable peoples.
Lastly: I was going to to a new thread on this documentry but it kind of fits in here. The documentry is "Indoctrinate U" It delves into the indoctrination of our youth by the Universities. It is very well done and quite informative.

[pocomoonskyeyes]

Rick as I said in the "Lockerbie" thread I'm with you on this 100% and since these two are so closely tied maybe they should be merged. It is getting time consuming for me to bounce from one to the other and say the same thing in both threads. Sorry folks If I offend you. But unless you have travelled abroad and heard first hand what other Nations think about this country(I have) you really need to stop and think how you would feel if the shoe were on the other foot. MOST other countries citizens Consider America and its citizens as Arrogant A$$holes, and justifiably so, we Are a much Younger Nation yet we try to impose our beliefs on other nations and their citizens. How would you feel if Spain,France, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, N. Korea or any other Nation started telling us what we SHOULD do? You would go tell them to go pee in the wind.(trying to be nice) That's the way they feel.
I still say let me go Terrorize this one individual, let him see how it feels. I can promise I would not be treated nearly as nicely as he was but hey thats just me ..still I would go. An Eye for an Eye, and he has two rght? He won't when I get through with him.

[SARKY]

Poco,
The problem with your argument is 2 fold.
1: We are based on one of the oldest civilizations on the world, Greece
2: If we are so horrible why do so many people from all over the world want IN!
3: It really is more a matter of playing nice with each other, and we do have the moral high ground...we aren't perfect, come to think of it, if we were perfect they would hate us more. If they don't want to play nice, we should what???!!
4: you want arrogant a**holes, go to Paris, France
5: a little world history Mexico has never been our friend, in fact they were courting Hitler in order to open up a front on our southern border. France has never been our friend, they came to our aid during the revolutionary war because we were a thorn in the UK's side and they were at war with Britain. Turkey, Murdered unknown numbers of Armenians and Hitler was so impressed that he spoke of it in one of his speeches. In most of the arab world women are chattel, would you want that for your daughter? how many of the women on this forum would go for that??? As to north korea, ole' kim jomg il would rather see every civilian die of starvation just so long as his military is well fed. Do you really believe he wants to play nice with the rest of the world?
KEN......Is it time to get the pitchforks and torches now??????

[Rick]

Sarky - I get what you're saying, too, and I agree...with some of it.

I've taught at the university level. I was even head of the academic committee for a while. It was the committee's job to determine teaching protocols as well as determine which printed material would be used. I can assure you that neither protection of authority nor offering up some form of indoctrination was on the list. And having dealt with other institutions and professors from other institutions I'm not aware of anyone that would apply to. That's just my personal experience. I'm sure your scenario is apt to apply to some instructors and, perhaps to some universities, but I don't believe it true across the board. Most folks are just folks trying to do their job the best they can and are usually genuinely concerned about their students. We had another thread on that not too long ago and I think that sentiment was born out there very well. No different than LEO or any other profession. A lot of really good, dedicated folks and a few bad apples.

I don't think it's accurate to label with a broad blanket. I certainly do agree that many countries and/or religions DO teach about the US being evil and those students will probably never be convinced otherwise. After all, the Japanese perfected that approach prior to WWII and it was clearly proved to be successful in a strangely morbid way. At the same time, there are those folks that did not attend that indoctrination, did not accept it and/or do not view us in the same fashion. Just as all of us aren't evil here in the States. And wiping them out to the last man, woman and child is part of doing surgery with a bulldozer I alluded to.

[pocomoonskyeyes]

Sarky you are forgetting that in The "Age of cultures" even Greece is still fairly Young. China, Mesopoatmia,Sanskrit and Egypt are just some that come to mind. 2 don't need any other explanation but 2 do geographically. Sanskrit= India Mesopotamia = the region around and including Turkey. You are right I don't necessarily agree with what those countries laws and customs are If I did I would move. Guess where I still live? that's right the good ol' USA! All I am saying, is that those other places view us an a young pup in the grander scheme of things. How do you feel when a Numpty tells you you should do this or that? These other Nations feel like that. You would not stand for what any of those Nations would tell Us to do, and that Was my point ENTIRELY!! Thank you for adding even more strength to what I had already said. You totally misunderstood my meaning, my fault I obviously did not clearly communicate or convey my feelings. Also read my reply in the lockerbie thread and you will see why I said the two should be "merged". It's easy to misunderstand when I'm trying to say the same thing in two places.

[Ken]

KEN......Is it time to get the pitchforks and torches now??????

I'll bring the torch oil.

[SARKY]

I'll bring the torch oil.

'Bout time!

Poco, pertaining to Greece I should have said as far as democracies go.
But even with that being said, The USA when it was formed, the founding fathers used the lessons of history to create it. And how many of those older countries have had their cultures and politics change over the centuries? Many of them are the same country in name only.

[doug1980]

Wow this is a hot topic. I have tons to add... I have met many people from all over the Middle East and other countries. I am not realy sure what to think. I love this country but I think we stick our noses in where we shouldn't a lot. I don't think we should be the "world police" but then again I can't say what this world would be like if we didn't do what we do. I also don't believe that most of the Arabic countries hate us. Like I said I have met many people while I was in Kuwait, UAE, Saudi, Quatar and Iraq and most were very friendly. I had lots of time to talk to them and learn their beliefs even learn a bit of Arabic. I also believe that there are as many so called Americans that hate this country as well. Any way it doen't really matter what I think or what I believe. I do wonder though...would these countries hate us so much if we didn't stick our nose in to their business so much? I also want to add that with all the problems we have here at home, spending so much time and energy dealing with the worlds problems might not be the best thing to be doing.

[LostOutrider]

Let me explain how it is in terms even a liberal can understand.

If your son Johnny is shooting his .22 at my kids from your window, you damn well better stop him before I blow his head off. If he hurts one of my kids and you helped him load the gun or you try to protect him after the fact, I'll kill both of you. No, I'm not gonna' wait for the police and give Johnny the chance to take a few more shots. Get it?

We don't have a police department to call when it comes to terrorists. And if you screw with my "family", I don't give a sh!t what anyone else, or any other nation, thinks about what I'm going to do in response.

And by the way - if I see Johnny aiming his gun at my family, I'll take him out BEFORE he gets his first shot off. Don't get in my way.


Ken, my brother and friend, this isn't the first time we've not seen eye to eye. Granted, I'll admit it is likely my liberal wrongheadedness that prevents me from seeing how simple and dichotomous the world really is. I love my country, and the freedoms being bled for right now. I would prefer that we not erode those freedoms in the name of fightin' terrists. I guess where I struggle with understanding the terms explained is that you've done a good job of explaining vengeful violence and righteous retribution. It would be awesome if we could find the right window to charge, guns a'blazing.

What if you hired these big, bad biker dudes to move into the neighborhood. Gave 'em all kinds of money and .22's. Maybe there were some Russians or something moving in to get rid of those opium fields the next block over and, well, we can't have the commies getting a leg up now can we? What would Uncle Joe think of that? Talk about an Un-American activity. But these dudes got out of hand, forgot who was feeding them and started using your money to buy more .22s and train up Little Johnny to hate you 'n yours. These are some mobile fellas, though, so when they finally do take a shot at your kids . . . they've already bugged out before the screaming stops.

But your neighbor, there, kindof looks like those guys and you never liked him much anyway. So you blame him for -thinking- about hurting your family and charge in, guns blazing, before he gets the chance. Kill most of his kids, him, his wife, his dog. Blow up part of his house. Then you bring your buddies over and give them fat taxpayer-funded no-bid contracts to remodel his house and build a new garage in his back yard so you can park your bass boat there?

That's just a crazy scenario, though.

[Ken]

Outrider, there's a huge difference between us and them.

We don't blow up airliners in the sky by placing bombs on board. We don't behead people because of their nationality or religon. We don't target innocents. And we don't cut off the purple dyed fingers of those who have voted.

My OP was not about fighting a culture or a nation or a religon. It was about our God-given right of self defense and bringing to justice those who do violence unto us first.

I do not believe in throwing the first punch. I do believe in throwing the last several punches.

[Rick]

I don't think this thread is a lesson in "I'm right, you're wrong". The fact is I don't know of anyone that has the answer including those leading us. I think it's more of a thread of "here's how I see it". To that regard, everyone ends up being right...or wrong.

The war in Iraq has cost us over $676 Billion (With a B) dollars while the war in Afghanistan has cost us over $225 Billion and likely to rapidly escalate since that's our current focus. That's over $900 Billion and Congress has already been asked for an additional $130 Billion for 2010. That would be over $1 TRILLION dollars. A trillion dollars! I can't even imagine $1 trillion dollars. Add to that over 4000 American deaths and over 31,000 Americans wounded. Staggering numbers.

[oldsoldier]

I'll bring the torch oil.

I've got a couple of old pitchforks I can re-handle

[LostOutrider]

Outrider, there's a huge difference between us and them.

We don't blow up airliners in the sky by placing bombs on board. We don't behead people because of their nationality or religon. We don't target innocents. And we don't cut off the purple dyed fingers of those who have voted.

My OP was not about fighting a culture or a nation or a religon. It was about our God-given right of self defense and bringing to justice those who do violence unto us first.

I do not believe in throwing the first punch. I do believe in throwing the last several punches.

When the news gets out of torture and secret detention centers, indefinite imprisonments without due process, and incidents/intelligence reports manipulated specifically to lure public opinion toward war - then that difference doesn't feel so huge. I still have hope that we can find our way back, that we haven't gone too far.

I'm with ya, though, so long as we go after the right folks who do unto us first. I'm not so sure we've done that just yet, I guess. We may not behead people, but we're mighty close friends with them what do. We may not cut off purple fingers, but we've funded violent governmental changes to put finger-chopping types of folk in charge. We don't target innocents, but we'll sure drop some heavy ordinance on a target right next to 'em. The fellow ordering the New York strip is on the same moral level as the butcher.

[SARKY]

Does anyone know how to properly sharpen one?

[Ken]

Does anyone know how to properly sharpen one?

I'd say a good file should do the job.

[Ken]

When the news gets out of torture and secret detention centers, indefinite imprisonments without due process, and incidents/intelligence reports manipulated specifically to lure public opinion toward war - then that difference doesn't feel so huge. I still have hope that we can find our way back, that we haven't gone too far.

I'm with ya, though, so long as we go after the right folks who do unto us first. I'm not so sure we've done that just yet, I guess. We may not behead people, but we're mighty close friends with them what do. We may not cut off purple fingers, but we've funded violent governmental changes to put finger-chopping types of folk in charge. We don't target innocents, but we'll sure drop some heavy ordinance on a target right next to 'em. The fellow ordering the New York strip is on the same moral level as the butcher.

People who have held very high positions, and who I trust implicitly, have told me as much as they can ever say. And I can read between the lines. What they have told me was that we have only read a small fraction of the story. We have never read about the catastrophic things that were going to happen but didn't happen because they were prevented in time.

I pose the following question, not based upon anything I have been told but from my own curiosity.

Retrospectively, would torture be justified if it prevented a nuclear detonation in Chicago?

[doug1980]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Rick]

I think all of that is true, Ken. And I think it has always gone on. As I said earlier, probably from the time this country was founded. I'm back to the difference between surgery with a fine scalpel and a bulldozer. No one anywhere says anything about those quiet midnight rendezvous's that result in someone giving up some information that we urgently need. Not them and certainly not us. But when we round up several hundred and do it then it puts us, our policies and our practices under the spot light. Then everyone is upset with us, internally and externally.

The intelligence community has to operate and their clandestine activities should remain clandestine. I guess I'd prefer to hang dirty laundry in the wash room instead of the backyard for everyone to see.

To your question. I don't think so. Torture produces suspect information at best. It will produce more information but not necessarily better information. The victim will say almost anything, at some point, to end the pain. FBI Director Mueller was asked a very similar question. I've paraphrased it slightly but did not change the essence of the comment.

David Rose: So far, have any attacks on America been disrupted thanks to intelligence obtained through what the administration still calls “enhanced techniques”?

Director Mueller: I’m really reluctant to answer that. He pauses, looks at an aide, and then says quietly, declining to elaborate: “I don’t believe that has been the case.”

(Interview in Vanity Fair. Last two paragraphs on this page...)

http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2008/12/torture200812?currentPage=4

On the other hand, I would think our intelligence community is perfectly able to conduct fruitful interrogations without the use of things like waterboarding. I don't think the options are torture or no information.

[LostOutrider]

Retrospectively, would torture be justified if it prevented a nuclear detonation in Chicago?

The problem with that question is that it presents torture as the only option. That is a logical fallacy. You may as well insert any heinous act into the question, "Would ______ be justified if it prevented mushroom clouds over Manhattan?" There are other ways to successfully interrogate that do not involve torture.

[Ken]

Under the United Nations Torture Convention of 1984, torture involves intentional infliction of pain, by a public official, to obtain information.

"Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity."

http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/39/a39r046.htm

"Severe mental suffering?" Please. If you believe I'm killing your brother in the next room, but I'm not, that would be inflicting "severe mental torture." So what's the problem?

[LostOutrider]

The problem is not the part where we just trick 'em into having bad feelings.

[Ken]

The problem is not the part where we just trick 'em into having bad feelings.

Outrider, that's exactly what waterboarding is.

[LostOutrider]

If you hold to that belief that those two situations are the same, then I can see how you'd feel the way you do about it. Waterboarding is a very physical form of torture. That isn't to say I condone mental/emotional torture either, only that the problem is deeper than just playing a trick on the bad guys so they'll stop a bomb.

There are lines that are not to be crossed if we want to keep wearing the white cowboy hats.

[doug1980]

The problem with that question is that it presents torture as the only option. That is a logical fallacy. You may as well insert any heinous act into the question, "Would ______ be justified if it prevented mushroom clouds over Manhattan?" There are other ways to successfully interrogate that do not involve torture.

Such as? Many people are quick to put in there 2 cents when they (do not know all the facts or circumstances of that given issue or topic) and others like to say there are alternative ways to do something but do not provide the alternative. Also to add to this...for those that think torture or an"eye for an eye" is wrong what about the death penalty? If you want to get into morality and what the so called "right thing to do" is this applies as well. Honestly this discussion will never be resolved, there is no compromise or middle ground on this topic. I believe what I believe and respect those that view it differently what I can not tolerate is when people disagree with small portions of it. It's all or nothing to me. You can't preach morality and humanity and then limit it to certain situations. If torture is bad on a terrorist (a mass murderer) then so is killing an American for murder.

[Ken]

If you hold to that belief that those two situations are the same, then I can see how you'd feel the way you do about it. Waterboarding is a very physical form of torture. That isn't to say I condone mental/emotional torture either, only that the problem is deeper than just playing a trick on the bad guys so they'll stop a bomb.

There are lines that are not to be crossed if we want to keep wearing the white cowboy hats.

Outrider, I'll be honest. Some of the folks I know agree with you and disagree with me, and, shall we say, retired in part because of such issues.

But the way I see it is that if someone, in good faith, is trying to protect American lives by employing methods which cause no physical or permanent injury, I'm not about to challenge their methods.

[LostOutrider]

Doug - The earlier link to the Vanity Fair article illustrates a pretty good example of an alternative method that was far more fruitful than torture. The problem with your comparison between death penalty and torture is that the murderer on death row has had the benefit of due process. He has had a trial, legal counsel, and has had evidence brought before a judge and a jury of his peers. We had to prove he was a criminal before we made him ride the lightning. If by your comparison you wish to offer the same rights and process to suspected terrorists, then state it outright. Otherwise, the comparison doesn't work so well.

Ken - I think the only place we disagree, then, is what methods cause permanent/physical injury. Makes me a little nostalgic for the days when we were watching our leader try to define "sexual relations" instead of "torture"

[Ken]

Makes me a little nostalgic for the days when we were watching our leader try to define "sexual relations" instead of "torture"

And what "is" is. :innocent:

http://www.slate.com/id/1000162/

[canid]

haha. nice.

[HOSSFLY]

Great way to get the blood pressure up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Moirlend]

While I agree with most of what Ken has stated in this post I have to bring this up

I'm quoting Sarge on this one

the rules here are iron-clad...NO POLITICS

[Rick]

But it's not politics, Moirlend. Politics would be discussing the principles of President Obama or why the Demos or Repubs are wrong. This is merely a philosophical discussion on the use of torture.

Doug - I think there is a huge difference between torture and the death penalty. I think it's hard to compare a lethal injection with electric shot or being tied to the ceiling or whatever someone dreams up.

[wareagle69]

i am always amused at how people twist anything for their own agenda
do you think that the world does not see the US as terroists?
we have had the forune of being brought up in a democratic society and so your lifestlye and beleifs reflect that.
an eye for an eye, yet there is a commandment that says thou shall not kill- which law will you choose to follow.
let me qualify this- my mother was murdered when i was 9 yrs old, stabbed seven times each one a killing blow-but i do not advocate his death
i was in somalia- lost 18 of my freinds- but i do not advocate the elimaination of every man woman and child in that lawless country as has been suggested
who says we are right? just because we are born into the life we have been brought into with our values and beleifs, maybe we are all wrong and they are the ones who are correct, only time will tell

[Moirlend]

But it's not politics, Moirlend. Politics would be discussing the principles of President Obama or why the Demos or Repubs are wrong. This is merely a philosophical discussion on the use of torture.

Doug - I think there is a huge difference between torture and the death penalty. I think it's hard to compare a lethal injection with electric shot or being tied to the ceiling or whatever someone dreams up.

LOL I was kinda expecting a response similar to this thanks for confirming my thoughts.

[crashdive123]

LOL I was kinda expecting a response similar to this thanks for confirming my thoughts.

and I was expecting a response such as yours. Seems that ole Sarge really got to you a while back. Is that when you deleted about thirty of your posts?

[Rick]

LOL I was kinda expecting a response similar to this thanks for confirming my thoughts.

You're quite welcome. If I can be of additional assistance, just let me know.

[Moirlend]

and I was expecting a response such as yours. Seems that ole Sarge really got to you a while back. Is that when you deleted about thirty of your posts?

Yeah thats when I decided that I wasnt going to contribute what little I could to the site. This place is great source of info, but it seems that some topic are ok as long as you stay on the right side of things.

This post for me just proved my thought on that. I think this is political, you guys say other wise. That cool it your site run it the way you want to. I'll just continue to lurk and get the information that I seek and I'll leave the rest alone.

Oh and sorry for the hijacking your thread ken

[crashdive123]

Yeah thats when I decided that I wasnt going to contribute what little I could to the site. This place is great source of info, but it seems that some topic are ok as long as you stay on the right side of things.

This post for me just proved my thought on that. I think this is political, you guys say other wise. That cool it your site run it the way you want to. I'll just continue to lurk and get the information that I seek and I'll leave the rest alone.

Oh and sorry for the hijacking your thread ken

Interesting that you would say that, especially about this thread. It seems as though there is quite some disagreement and debate going on with regards to the original post. There has however been one post deleted (by me) that did cross the line into politics. So, at least for me, your comment about staying on the right side of things doesn't quite make sense. Could it be that you and Shadoran were just not getting the answers that you wanted, albeit you were getting answers to your questions? I'm being serious when I ask, and not meaning to offend.

[Moirlend]

Interesting that you would say that, especially about this thread. It seems as though there is quite some disagreement and debate going on with regards to the original post. There has however been one post deleted (by me) that did cross the line into politics. So, at least for me, your comment about staying on the right side of things doesn't quite make sense. Could it be that you and Shadoran were just not getting the answers that you wanted, albeit you were getting answers to your questions? I'm being serious when I ask, and not meaning to offend.

I'm sorry I'm not following you on this. What questions?
For the most part since I deleted my post, all I read on here now is topics on survival or gear. Shardoran, I barely remember, I know he started a tread about living in his car, but I really haven't followed his post since then.

[Jonesy]

Does anyone know how to properly sharpen one?


I will gladly sharpen them...all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ken...The enemy????? Seriously....

A liberal in a real survival situation (or just breathing) must be a hell of a quandry to them.

[Ole WV Coot]

Well all I can say is I was born & raised in Eastern KY, now just across in Southern WV and all us folks feel the same. Anyone that knows us don't need to be told what we do.

[yellowcab]

�пек (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/1166)129.5 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/210)CHAP (http://eyesvision.ru/use-your-own-eyes-chapter-13)refl (http://eyesvisions.com)Suit (http://factoringfee.ru/t/1136448)Silv (http://filmzones.ru/t/933909)Pete (http://gadwall.ru/t/898866)Малч (http://gaffertape.ru/t/1101839)Маре (http://gageboard.ru/t/1094505)Марк (http://gagrule.ru/t/853358)ли�т (http://gallduct.ru/t/1162215)Козл (http://galvanometric.ru/t/945885)Davi (http://gangforeman.ru/t/1070185)Tesc (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/1481176)К-00 (http://garbagechute.ru/t/1144156)
Tesc (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/1027771)Инди (http://gascautery.ru/t/1144039)Плех (http://gashbucket.ru/t/830943)пред (http://gasreturn.ru/t/1144166)П��е (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/837645)кре� (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/1161616)baby (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/1208419)и��л (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/949482)Tesc (http://geartreating.ru/t/928379)Порт (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/922978)Лени (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/947196)ценн (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/854774)личн (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/938292)Used (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/924461)Kurt (http://getthebounce.ru/t/767803)
Sams (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/1088152)Musi (http://habituate.ru/t/1091054)Черт (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/835207)Driv (http://hackworker.ru/t/1125179)Thir (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/1102249)Воро (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/1095714)Joha (http://hailsquall.ru/t/812974)Henr (http://hairysphere.ru/t/851445)Огла (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/811836)наро (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/854561)Шапи (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/811606)Walt (http://haltstate.ru/t/863142)Fash (http://handcoding.ru/t/1027427)Ergo (http://handportedhead.ru/t/1142879)Ке�� (http://handradar.ru/t/810656)
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Flam (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/1182337)пои� (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/654934)Live (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/637766)Barb (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/771369)Выпу (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/639158)Chri (http://jobstress.ru/t/664654)Миха (http://jogformation.ru/t/795534)Push (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/1147389)9399 (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/1147716)Push (http://journallubricator.ru/t/1067407)Phil (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/1147385)Pali (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/1180215)ELEG (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/1181724)Rumb (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/1183081)Pali (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/1179866)
Ruby (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/1180951)Phil (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/638624)Buga (http://kentishglory.ru/t/1182952)педи (http://kerbweight.ru/t/1179709)Zone (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/608745)Rond (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/610908)Roxy (http://keyserum.ru/t/1180741)газе (http://kickplate.ru/t/893366)Блар (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/1208209)Juli (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/781506)Pier (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/889671)кома (http://kinozones.ru/film/6062)конк (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/740977)Лебе (http://kneejoint.ru/t/853204)труд (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/1256437)
рома (http://knockonatom.ru/t/764992)Данг (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/848881)уфол (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/1239657)03-0 (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1194431)Benn (http://laborracket.ru/t/1097432)В�ел (http://labourearnings.ru/t/1466573)авто (http://labourleasing.ru/t/1245278)Zone (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/1190446)�ере (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/1188719)Happ (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/1188372)Zone (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/1186701)lsbk (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/1193217)Zone (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/1191802)Zone (http://laggingload.ru/t/1190110)Zone (http://laissezaller.ru/t/1191738)
Zone (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/1191792)Zone (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/1193327)02-1 (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/1184032)Zone (http://lamphouse.ru/t/1184938)Zone (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/1184873)Zone (http://lancingdie.ru/t/1186302)MORG (http://landingdoor.ru/t/1188488)хар- (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/1184639)Zone (http://landreform.ru/t/1186778)Zone (http://landuseratio.ru/t/1185098)Zone (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/1190900)Силу (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1161143)хоро (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/1162143)Linu (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/114)Юпат (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/590628)

[yellowcab]

беже (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1178945)Elec (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/451924)Mabe (http://layabout.ru/shop/452577)Refu (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/181175)Star (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/105763)карт (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/465287)Hana (http://leaveword.ru/shop/465316)Pola (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/195025)Fies (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/574723)Ð*ыби (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/195831)пред (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/268286)Mist (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/446386)Cast (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/447463)STAR (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/160206)OPEL (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/613918)
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Siem (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/98667)Ñ�ерт (http://oceanmining.ru)Pedi (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/571267)ЛитÐ* (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/148430)Круг (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/201219)Сини (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/148806)Дриз (http://onesticket.ru/shop/579248)ЛитÐ* (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/581149)Лбдк (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/683502)ЛитÐ* (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/682856)Ð�зар (http://palmberry.ru/shop/578226)â„–157 (http://papercoating.ru/shop/582851)Генк (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/688413)Ð�вто (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1167736)Черк (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1167763)
�лек (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1166874)проф (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1171627)Сафо (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/1539769)Henr (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/1378810)зани (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/595190)Open (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/596891)Cesa (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/1071509)Marg (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1073189)Соде (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/321803)Beau (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/508997)Ivan (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/517511)Bonu (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/514300)Yevg (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/902811)Скуг (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/1078614)Стар (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/318127)
Inte (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/513395)Юлда (http://rearchain.ru/shop/641454)Some (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/517949)Соко (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/884542)GPRS (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1054096)авто (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1062749)�зык (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1679718)Бор� (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1693322)разн (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1760385)Петл (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/1208114)Desp (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1815023)Domi (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1054474)Стол (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1068256)Loli (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1445175)Лазу (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1463279)
Rosi (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1492576)Яким (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1463178)Льво (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1494085)Буха (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/1330445)ариф (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/1400428)жизн (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/1482987)Соде (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/326457)Иван (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/399708)Geor (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/400732)обра (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/475022)Linu (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/114)Linu (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/114)Linu (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/114)Geor (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/482958)Wher (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/490370)
обуч (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/498373)Bonn (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/483207)небл (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/487440)�ико (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/499130)Собо (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1821659)�аво (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/1880252)упра (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/718277)��ыл (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/351733)Соло (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/400711)Come (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/980151)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)Jose (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/980697)худо (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/483324)

[yellowcab]

�тер (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/3701)231.6 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/321)PERF (http://eyesvision.ru)CHAP (http://eyesvisions.com/use-your-own-eyes-chapter-1)Марк (http://factoringfee.ru/t/418417)Mati (http://filmzones.ru/t/132192)Camm (http://gadwall.ru/t/132219)Poke (http://gaffertape.ru/t/344413)Syst (http://gageboard.ru/t/356885)�мер (http://gagrule.ru/t/253979)Богд (http://gallduct.ru/t/478340)ДБШа (http://galvanometric.ru/t/292385)Colu (http://gangforeman.ru/t/141340)9129 (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/144387)1962 (http://garbagechute.ru/t/817513)
Seen (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/140299)Mark (http://gascautery.ru/t/296187)Smil (http://gashbucket.ru/t/133331)�таж (http://gasreturn.ru/t/442982)Spir (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/558349)home (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/674494)(кла (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/671189)Orie (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/448373)Tesc (http://geartreating.ru/t/567138)Tesc (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/343469)Atla (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/473405)Atla (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/558859)Aquo (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/138485)�ерт (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/138507)Aloe (http://getthebounce.ru/t/137673)
филь (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/478876)Gana (http://habituate.ru/t/624005)Ð*око (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/246231)Томи (http://hackworker.ru/t/487842)Amer (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/622837)Erot (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/553512)Ñ�ерт (http://hailsquall.ru/t/139357)Дико (http://hairysphere.ru/t/264994)Nive (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/560553)Ñ�ерт (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/561562)Plan (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/352722)Skin (http://haltstate.ru/t/358238)ÐœÑ�Ñ�н (http://handcoding.ru/t/564532)Ð*ежи (http://handportedhead.ru/t/638610)Fran (http://handradar.ru/t/521765)
Bril (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/137465)возм (http://hangonpart.ru/t/65897)Гале (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/282577)Wind (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/177735)быти (http://hardasiron.ru/t/284322)Кон� (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/492737)Roma (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/295059)Patc (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/140574)Rich (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/173143)мгно (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/254215)ELEG (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/155733)Spon (http://headregulator.ru/t/164483)Anti (http://heartofgold.ru/t/169560)Чи�т (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/183945)Mari (http://heatinggas.ru/t/297263)
авто (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/303492)Ермо (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/267244)Dolb (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/302923)blac (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/601595)Sela (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/602463)Niki (http://jobstress.ru/t/602440)Emil (http://jogformation.ru/t/606005)Jewe (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/549014)Facc (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/540534)Arkt (http://journallubricator.ru/t/140827)рабо (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/492542)Jaan (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/294793)Habi (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/303260)Шани (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/303008)Anth (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/293765)
школ (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/296016)Call (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/302165)Герш (http://kentishglory.ru/t/301177)Соде (http://kerbweight.ru/t/187314)�к�к (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/319183)напи (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/245930)Вино (http://keyserum.ru/t/187725)Swar (http://kickplate.ru/t/157141)мен� (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/603691)Иван (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/477825)Zone (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/608135)реб� (http://kinozones.ru/film/8597)мен� (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/603734)Edmo (http://kneejoint.ru/t/595587)Ferr (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/456125)
Заве (http://knockonatom.ru/t/292729)КЛ-3 (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/603634)Swar (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/157178)отде (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/750536)Swar (http://laborracket.ru/t/157292)Zone (http://labourearnings.ru/t/158004)Loui (http://labourleasing.ru/t/291820)Банн (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/363286)Поно (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/319743)Inte (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/428119)лите (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/492617)Than (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/253629)Dolb (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/71953)Meda (http://laggingload.ru/t/177557)Arnh (http://laissezaller.ru/t/281529)
Wood (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/68663)ра�� (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/246865)Jeff (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/253855)Loui (http://lamphouse.ru/t/295248)И�ак (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/198708)qara (http://lancingdie.ru/t/69230)Need (http://landingdoor.ru/t/177518)по�т (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/247665)рубе (http://landreform.ru/t/299629)XVII (http://landuseratio.ru/t/262475)О�ип (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/318878)клей (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1161990)хоро (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/1533064)LD-6 (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/501)клей (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/591138)

[yellowcab]

This (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1546966)FANT (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/453614)Kenj (http://layabout.ru/shop/599829)оран (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/600656)инÑ�Ñ‚ (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/106542)Gunn (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/466261)Кита (http://leaveword.ru/shop/788568)Hrda (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/303452)Dali (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/577310)Jeth (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/446993)Ð*оÑ�Ñ� (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/269347)друз (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/668549)Кита (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/600994)Prol (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/612584)Repu (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/1174792)
нача (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/601245)гема (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/399)Folk (http://mp3lists.ru/item/8069)тек� (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/1151153)объе (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/565620)Grea (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/462015)Семе (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/1056047)огра (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/576529)фигу (http://navelseed.ru/shop/103213)отли (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/455676)Чеха (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/179293)Stud (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/622467)Mist (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/642883)пове (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/466972)Oliv (http://observationballoon.ru)
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