The "GRAY" area in "SHOOT" or DON"T SHOOT"

[Sourdough]

You have no idea much I don't want to open this "CAN of WORMS". So I request if you don't have Empirical points to bring forth, that you restrain from giving your OPINION. Cops are trained extensively in the shoot/don't shoot. They have special drills, special targets, special video targets, and still they make mistakes.

I am looking for clear rules of decision making, not opinions.

There is a point where it is clearly time to shoot center of mass to stop the clear threat to you or your family.

There is also a large area of engagement where it is CLEAR you are not yet in eminent danger.

It is the Gray area between the two I wish to discuss. To narrow the Gray as much as possible. We are talking about the life of a human. Also any rules like if your going to confront two men, do you do it as far away as possible, or at a distance of your choosing, for example let them get half way from their car to you so they can't use the car for cover, etc.

I am looking for clear points to remember so as to make the Gray area as small as possible. Yes, I have taken concealed carry classes, and have my own handgun range. The nearest COP is one hour and twenty minutes away. So call the cops, and let the professional handle it is not an option.

[Rick]

What are the laws concerning self defense in AK? Wouldn't you start there?

[Pal334]

Through out the years that is the question . I am not going to presume to give any advice. The decision to pull the trigger is deeply personal. My "threshold" is different than yours (differences in laws not being considered). The point of this statement was to remind folks, think before you give this type of very serious advice.

[Ken]

That's a tough question, even for folks with a whole lot of training and experience. Remember, all shootings, even police shootings, will get reviewed by internal affairs, another police agency, the district attorney, or a grand jury. Why? Because that gray area is just that - gray.

I've often pondered the very question you've just asked. I've drawn a weapon 4 times in my life - all in Boston when I was in school in the late '70's and early '80's

First time - in a parking garage on Cambridge Street. Just getting out of the car with my ex-wife (when we were still engaged) and a guy comes walking over with a broken bottle leaving no doubt about what he wanted. No where to "escape." He saw the gun, said "$hit" and dropped the bottle and walked away. Had he gotten any closer, had he not backed away, that bottle could potentially have caused some serious damage. I would have fired.

Second time - in a sandwich shop on Tremont Street. Three kids come walking in and yell "This is a hold-up!" It wasn't. If all six hands hadn't gone up, someone would have been shot.

Third time - walking up Beacon Street after dark with a classmate. We were both carrying. Two guys, both pull out knives from about 8' away, and demand our wallets. Instead, they got a good look at a Bernardelli and a PPK from 8' away. They dropped the knives and *****ed like hell when they stuffed their shoes and coats down the storm drain. Any closer, they would have died in the shadow of the Statehouse.

Fourth time - at the "Corner Eateries" at Downtown Crossing. Two kids behind me as I'm waiting in line for a frappe. Customer at the counter had a real big diamond on her finger. Kids behind me start talking about it. One says "I'm gonna' rob that diamond right off her hand." People around us heard what he was saying. My hand goes in my pocket as I step forward. The other guy says something - musta' been about me - that I couldn't hear, and the first guy says "He tries to do anything and I'll stick him. I think I'll stick him now!" Bad idea. He was too close. I took two steps forward as I drew and turned around. I think he $hit himself. If I had seen a knife (I didn't) he would have died there. He was too close to wait to see what he was going to do next.

I've never faced a gun pointed at me or anyone I've been with. That would totally change the scenario. A knife at a distance is one thing. A gun at any distance is another. If it's pointed at me or someone else and I can get off a clear shot, I'm gonna' do it. Simple. And if it's one of those replica's http://www.southcoasttoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090620/NEWS/906200340/-1/NEWS06 alot of the punks around here seem to be carrying these days, too bad.

[Schleprok]

The point of no return is different in each case. Training and practice help you to maintain not shooting until you absolutely have to. Military and Police used to teach the "double-tap", that is two rounds per assailant. Now the majority of LEOs as well as Military teach shoot center mass (never shoot to kill, although center mass is a high probability) and shoot until the target is no longer in your sight picture (dropped).
Drill to increase skill and muscle memory (reflex). Do not drill to shoot every time. You don't want it to be automatic that you fire each time your weapon is pulled. Not a Samarai sword, no requirement to draw blood when unsheathed. Drill in daylight and dark, fair and foul weather. Before you know it, you will stop using sights on a handgun until you get to 20meters or so.
Personally I've been a handgunner for over 40 years (thanks Dad) and have had military and law enforcement training. The first time I drew my weapon against an armed suspect myself and my partner knew it was about to get very ugly. Something in the back of my mind kicked in and I knew it was a fake weapon the suspect had. Looked mighty real at the time. Even looked real on the hood of the patrol car. Training kept me from shooting early when the "threat" was first perceived...
(turned out to be an unauthorized photo shoot, cameraman went to the van for more film right before we rolled on the scene).

[Sourdough]

What are the laws concerning self defense in AK? Wouldn't you start there?

DID that, that is the CLEAR part.....it is the gray area I want as much info as available.

[crashdive123]

Hope - as you know already, there is no clear cut answer to your question. The training that a LEO receives covers more than just the protection of self. The training I received in the military, which was mostly centered around the protection of nuclear weapons was vastly different than that of a combat soldier. Knowing your laws (as Rick said) is important to factor in. In Florida with the "Castle Doctrine" what I am legally allowed to do is going to be different than for a person living in New York. In reality, those laws may not govern my reactions, but hopefully the actions of a potential perp. The point at which I would pull the trigger as a civilian is going to be different for me than it would be for others. As a civilian, I think that gray area boils down to the gray matter in you head. For me, it has to be a decision that I can live with.

[Ken]

Bottom line: Are you morally certain, considering the totality of circumstances and the split-second decision you must make, that you or another innocent person is about to be killed or seriously injured if you DON'T SHOOT? If you answer "yes" to that question, IMHO, lethal force is justified.

[tonester]

working for over two years for loomis armored ive only have to draw my weapon once, i didnt point it at him, simple drawing it was enough to make the guy turn around and walk as fast as he could the opposite way. the training that i have gotten from the classes i have taken, my company, and my father(he is a police officer) is that there are steps that lead up to using lethal force. of course it can go from not needing to use lethal force to having to use it in seconds.

when i had to draw my weapon i saw a situation that could have led up to me shooting. what happened was i was guarding a partner while servicing a walk up atm, to my left at about 50ft away i saw a gangster looking guy wearing a really baggy shirt and really baggy sweats walking toward our direction but not directly toward us. first step i took was i tapped my partners shoulder and told him to be ready. when the guy came within 20ft of us he thought it would be smart to start putting his hand behind his back, i pulled my weapon and let him know that i was there. his eyes opened wide and he took off. this all took place in a matter of seconds.

if he would have continued to walk toward us after i drew my firearm i would have took aim and shouted at him to stop where he is at and go the other way. if at anytime he would have pulled out a weapon i would have open fired.

[Sourdough]

It is the things you don't think of, that I am looking for. Like yesterday, it was useless to call the AK State Troopers, but I should have called a neighbor to block my driveway. I should have been taking photos of them ASAP, after I was equiped. I did draw a line for there approch, I did think out my retreat, I did notice my 1,000 gal. fuel tank was in the line of fire. I did use binoculars to see if anyone did not get out of the car. But what else did I not think of. It is a different reality when in a isolated area. These type of encounters could be daily or hourly, if the SHTF. How many can you engage...? Two would be bad odds, three it would be better to run like a little girl. I think we bring to much arrogance, and (damn earth quake) gotta run.

[Ken]

Hopeak, maybe I'm missing something here or it's time for new reading glasses.........

What were those guys doing?

[crashdive123]

In the situation that you describe, there is no easy answer. Living alone and remotely is certainly a lot more common where you are than where I am. Cover and concealment is certainly an option, but then you have to decide what you are willing to lose. Making a potential attacker believe that if he/she proceeds they will be met with an overwhelming force, thus making their intended target less inviting. With no neighbors close by, and if they have the knowledge that you are alone certainly makes it tough. I don't mean this next statement in a joking matter - but think about some of the things that Spud talked about. Is retreating to a safer location with the tools to knock the acne off the pimple faced booger eater at a range that I'm sure you are capable of an option?

[Pict]

This is a tough one to give empirical rules for. Three conditions have to be met to a reasonable person standard.

Ability - The attacker must be able to inflict death or grave bodily injury. This could be a weapon or disparity of force.

Proximity - The attacker must be close enough that he can use the means he has to inflict death or grave bodily injury.

Intent - The attacker must display through words or actions that he intends to inflict death or grave bodily injury.

The fact that these three are applied to a reasonable person standard means that you have some wiggle room in applying this to the wide range of circumstances that surround the incident.

Context is also important. In your home, especially if you have dependents to protect you have a different threshold of what would be considered reasonable. In any shooting they are going to look at your movements and words as well as the alleged attackers to determine what a reasonable person would have interpreted from them. Did you mouth off or make a gesture, did they close the distance or did you? There are allot of factors here, jurisdiction being a huge one. In some places you have to be cornered and in others you can use deadly force in any place you have a right to be.

This is a matter we all wrestle with. Mac

ETA - This is a gray area for a reason, there are so many variables it can't really be answered before the situation unfolds. I know that's not the answer you're looking for.

[Ole WV Coot]

In the good ole USA I have never drawn my weapon therefore I have never shot anyone. I don't advertise it either. I do have a comfort zone and it depends on my first impression, visibility of weapons, number of attackers, background of attackers. If I am alone or with family. Family I would take less chances. My handgun zone is about 7yds more if I see firearms. In close against one about 4ft if he is armed with a knife or just big & mean. No firearms at this range, I still rely on my trusty walking stick, cane or whatever and the advantage that this ole man ain't as easy as he may think. My gray area will be smaller due to my age and perception of helplessness. Lots of variables here. I always try to remain alert, paranoid maybe? All my practice was point shooting the last few years, haven't hit anyone with my closed fist since I was barely a teenager and I believe I have earned the few scars I have. That's mine, everyone will be different.

[Rick]

Thanks, Mac. That's what I was talking about, Hopeak. If Alaska law is as Mac described and you are genuinely fearful of your life then where is the gray area?

Do you have a gated road?

Can you establish a stop short zone so the intruders MUST stop their vehicle before they reach your cabin? Simple posts embedded on end to stop a vehicle. Don't use the concrete barricades because you provide them with cover and concealment.

Can you establish a funnel zone by fence or other containment so the bad guys do not have the option to conceal or scatter but rather are held in one area for some amount of time? Forced to turn the vehicle around, must move around an object to get to you? By stringing two or three cables high or fencing across a short area in front of your cabin they must move around rather than through. That would give you more time and a clear shot if you had to shoot.

You can install driveway alarms that span 400' so you know well before they get to the cabin they are on your road. Completely portable.

http://www.gadgetshack.com/reporter.html

You can purchase fake security cameras.

There are a number of things that you can do to provide yourself greater notice and protection and entice an intruder to leave well before weapons are needed.

[Pal334]

And there is nothing wrong with running, I have done it, not ashamed to admit it. Especially if the odds (in your opinion) are not good. No bodily threat no "bang". If it is property, live to fight another day.

[Sourdough]

Hopeak, maybe I'm missing something here or it's time for new reading glasses.........

What were those guys doing?

Ken, for this educational conversation, I would prefer to not elaborate, as then the conversation becomes about that incident. My concern is for the next time, I learned a lot, but want more templates for decision making.

As one comes up the 3/8 mile of driveway there are six large signs: "WARNING", Property protected by Security Cameras, signs.

There are other Warning signs, and posted signs, and signs that say DANGER, "authorized personal only". and signs that say DANGER "Construction Area". So if they come up the mountain, and stop at the final drive, park 90 yards from the cabin, with smoke coming out the wood stove chimney, have two cigarettes, talk and point at stuff. while parked 7' from a large warning sign with a security camera mounted on top, and point at the other cameras. I figure it is not Ed McMahon with my Publishers Clearinghouse Check.

[crashdive123]

Hope - could it be that you have made your place look like a construction site or company and that possibly in doing so it becomes the target of burglars for equipment that can be found at such a location?

[Ken]

Jehovah's Witnesses? Avon calling? Fuller Brush Man? Rainbow Vaccuums? Girl Scout Cookie time? :innocent:

[Ken]

Hopeak, sounds like it may be time for some non-lethal trip wire rigs.

[Sourdough]

Did you get the license plate # ?
I think Crash has a good point.

Big dogs ?


No...but I tried, cars here do not have to have front license plates....If I had though of it I could have took photos, but did not.

[Ken]

Hopeak, would a trap door in the floor of your cabin be of any value?

[Ken]

Another thing that's perfectly clear. These guys didn't care if they were being watched.

[Sourdough]

Hope - could it be that you have made your place look like a construction site or company and that possibly in doing so it becomes the target of burglars for equipment that can be found at such a location?

I clearly think they were casing the place. What is un-nerving is that it was not a quick peek......they parked there for 6 minutes. They were most likely not American, based on how they handled the cigarettes. This will sound really strange to you'all but Los Anchorage has a lot of gangs, and not just youth gangs.

[Rick]

You place us at a distinct disadvantage. We don't know the location or how it is setup. We don't know what occurred so there is no way we can offer suggestions and no way to adequately answer your original question because there are too many variables we don't know. If you want to discuss hypothetical situations then you'll receive hypothetical responses that will probably offer no real solution to your problem. Whatever it is.

[Rick]

Perhaps they were scouting the next Man vs. Wild episode.

[Rick]

Hopeak - What if you stuck that new AR out the window and fire a couple of shots? If the law would happen to show up just plead ignorance and tell them you were doing some target practice out back and didn't even see anyone. You don't have to shoot them just toss some rounds.

[dolfan87]

If it is clearly marked (and it sounds like it is) that there is no trespassing, what does the Alaska law say you are allowed to do when folks DO trespass?

Calling the cops is not an option in your situation, although, having an officer on the phone with you while these guys were on your property illegally, would go a long way towards giving you a sense of comfort about whatever decision you both make together.

I agree about the dogs though. Two well trained dogs could solve a lot of problems. Men illegally enter your property, dogs rip them up, you did not have to pull the trigger. If bad guys happen to shoot your dogs, then you have open cause to fire on them.

[Ken]

If bad guys happen to shoot your dogs, then you have open cause to fire on them.

I suspect that if a bad guy shoots Hopeak's dog, they'll soon wish that Hopeak had only opened fire on them. :innocent:

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

Hopeak - What if you stuck that new AR out the window and fire a couple of shots? If the law would happen to show up just plead ignorance and tell them you were doing some target practice out back and didn't even see anyone. You don't have to shoot them just toss some rounds.

Before I moved from the middle of the city with the number 3 murder rate in the nation and theft is rampant. (I still live in the county now just in the country a bit. I still face the same problem) I did just that, if I thought someone a foot was casing my place. I would go out the back door and fire a few 12 ga. rounds in the ground. They never saw me but they were thugs and knew the noise wasn't fireworks. The next time they walked on the other side of the street. I also kept 3 "redneck' trucks at home all the time and moved them around weekly. My shop was large and I had no way to lock up all of my valuable tools. So I kept it like a junk pile. If you live in an area where people do not have alot, you don't want to look like the guy with the most stuff. I also find signage doesn't faze these guys it is like advertizing valuables are on the premesis. The signs I use are multiple mudder trucks, a vietnam era camouflage net over the water tank. Make it look like the old man not to mess with! Now having said this...when I first moved out in the boonies I fealt comfortable and let my guard down. I left the trucks at the old house. I didn't fire a round or two when I noted a likely thug walking the road. So it was not surprising I got robbed. I recovered my belongings but so far I haven't got anyone locked up. You can bet my guard is back up! In fact another riding mower has been stolen just last week from a farm down the road. Because I have already cased every mower in this vicinity looking for mine, I searched for his. I may have spotted the stolen mower on the way home from work and have reported the info. to the police who will at least have to do some paperwork! Yeah I still file a report even though it appears to be waste of time. One guy out here has his pistol range out in the front of his home must be a million rounds dotting the front yard. Nobody in their right mind would set foot over there. I hope you get what I mean by this post. In some cultures there are unwritten rules that effect the rational of what a criminal thinks they can pull off or not. If you've been shot at before and had to duck under a big mud truck to get away you tend to associate the truck with danger. I am not usually this winded I am catching it trying to get my poit accross hopefully there is something here if you read into it enough.

[Rick]

Unless those dogs are trained guard dogs, they don't mean squat. A little raw meat and they are your best friend. Everyone thinks big dogs intimidate folks when all the studies and the pros themselves say otherwise. I worked outside for over a decade, met just about every type of dog you could possibly run into on his property and never got dog bit.

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

I agree about the dogs 2 pitbulls were just beat to death in a lawnmower shop during a burglary here. They used lawnmower blades to take them out.

[Rick]

jeepers. What is it with S.C. and lawn mowers?

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

jeepers. What is it with S.C. and lawn mowers?

http://www.theitem.com/article/20090505/CSUN01/705059850

Here it is... Maybe cause' I have to cut my grass 2X a week to come close to keeping it cut. It is a must have here I guess!

[Sourdough]

Let's say, and i hope not...that they come back.
Park their truck/car and start walking towards your cabin.

No visible weapon.
What then ?
Is that the grey you are talking about ?



Remy, you nailed it 100% perfect......100% or what if they get out of the car, with guns in hand, and start walking to the cabin, I yell, what do you want, they keep walking my way, I yell, STOP and they keep walking. At some point something needs to happen, and it better happen at something other than point blank range........but if they do not raise their guns, what is that point 70' or 40' I don't know......what if they are Russian and do not speak english.....? Or if they are Russian Mafia there for a hit, at the wrong address, or right address.

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

or maybe it is because we don't lock theives up!

[Ken]

Hopeak, whatever you do, are those security cameras of yours recording? :innocent:

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

or maybe am I just really upset that my personal space was violated! Hopeak at 70' do you have cover near by?

[Sourdough]

Why didn't you come out when they were standing there, keeping your distances and shout : "Can i help you ?"


Because if there was to be an issue I wanted them divorced from the safety of their car, and any heavier firepower that it might contain. Also they were protected somewhat by the car doors that they stayed behind. And I did not want to tip my hand about being home, or how many were in the cabin.

I have engaged trespassers before, and had them call the police. They leave and two days later the cops show up. Also people freak if you walk out with a fully dressed AR. That is why I want a heavy, all metal, high capacity tool you can have behind your leg.

[Sourdough]

or maybe am I just really upset that my personal space was violated! Hopeak at 70' do you have cover near by?


Not really, just some small buildings.

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

I see the grey line more now. Is there a covered back exit? They haven't seen me. If this is the case I am thinking high power rifle personal choice is 270 150grain 70 yds. a warning shot hitting the ground between them and another request to annouce their business on your property any further advance without response and the second shot ripps through the skinny guys big toe!

[Pict]

Gun in hand isn't a gray area with me in a remote cabin. There is no reason for someone I don't know, on my land, to exit a vehicle with a firearm in their hands. If he doesn't have a badge and I hadn't called for help any warning shots will be because I missed. At that point there is only tactical considerations. Mac

[crashdive123]

Hope with what you have described, I'd have to agree with Mac. In a remote location like that there is no good reason for somebody to be armed and approaching you. Hunters? You know the etiquette up there better than any of us, but I would think that leaving weapons in the vehicle would be the proper course of action for somebody that meant no harm. It is a tough call. Stay safe my friend.

[Ken]

Alaska Statutes Chapter 81 - General Provisions.

http://touchngo.com/lglcntr/akstats/Statutes/Title11/Chapter81.htm


AS 11.81.335. Justification: Use of Deadly Force in Defense of Self.

http://touchngo.com/lglcntr/akstats/Statutes/Title11/Chapter81/Section335.htm


AS 09.65.330. Immunity: Use of Defensive Force.

http://touchngo.com/lglcntr/akstats/Statutes/Title09/Chapter65/Section330.htm

[Sourdough]

Gun in hand isn't a gray area with me in a remote cabin. There is no reason for someone I don't know, on my land, to exit a vehicle with a firearm in their hands. If he doesn't have a badge and I hadn't called for help any warning shots will be because I missed. At that point there is only tactical considerations. Mac


This is roughly how I see it also, and the longer you wait the more the odds are in their favor......But what if they get in the car and drive right up to the door. If you retreat into the cabin a only natural instinct, now your trapped, and they shoot you through the windows, or burn the building. But if you fire at the approaching car, what was the threat, at that point you have to run, now you back is turned. What if there is a third person that they dropped off who has flanked you while they distracted you.....? A mother of all Gates is one answer. Not a cure-all but a answer.

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

I agree with Mac too! just trying to add to the satire. Hopeak this is a real situation for you and you and only you know your risk and your priorities. I am a 36 yr. old married man with a 5 yr old daughter. I know what I would do for them, but I don't know what I would do for just me alone. They are in real danger at 70' ft. and already signed papers for me to bury them if my family was home!

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

Just got your post after my last reply. My priority right now is the mother of all gates. Kinda what I was sayin' earlier. You have to have a reasonably intimidating look about the place. Why is a gate in the front intimidating, maybe they are trapped inside!

[Pal334]

Alaska Statutes Chapter 81 - General Provisions.

http://touchngo.com/lglcntr/akstats/Statutes/Title11/Chapter81.htm


AS 11.81.335. Justification: Use of Deadly Force in Defense of Self.

http://touchngo.com/lglcntr/akstats/Statutes/Title11/Chapter81/Section335.htm


AS 09.65.330. Immunity: Use of Defensive Force.

http://touchngo.com/lglcntr/akstats/Statutes/Title09/Chapter65/Section330.htm

I think I like the way they think up there:
AS 11.81.335. Justification: Use of Deadly Force in Defense of Self.
there is no duty to leave the area if the person is


(1) on premises


(A) that the person owns or leases;


(B) where the person resides, temporarily or permanently; or


Seems to be a common sense approach, especially in that predominately rural and isolated environment

[SARKY]

<Ability - The attacker must be able to inflict death or grave bodily injury. This could be a weapon or disparity of force.>
If he is one of these muscle mooks we have comming out of the system, is that a disparity of force??? Can I counter that with a weapon, or is that considered escalation???

<Proximity - The attacker must be close enough that he can use the means he has to inflict death or grave bodily injury.>
Meaningless! If he is in a moving car on the street and i'm on my front lawn, i'm toast! If he is 50 feet down the street and lets loose with 10 rounds down range I am just as toasted.
If he is within 20 feet with a knife, he can sprint and stick me before even the best trained person could draw and fire their weapon.

<Intent - The attacker must display through words or actions that he intends to inflict death or grave bodily injury.>
If they are stupid enough to telegraph their intentions, they deserve everything they get.
BUT, what if they don't display their intentions until the last minute?

[LowKey]

No back door in the cabin?

[Sourdough]

I agree with Mac too! just trying to add to the satire. Hopeak this is a real situation for you and you and only you know your risk and your priorities. I am a 36 yr. old married man with a 5 yr old daughter. I know what I would do for them, but I don't know what I would do for just me alone. They are in real danger at 70' ft. and already signed papers for me to bury them if my family was home!


Regretfully Alaska is rapidly becoming the new home of former Californian's. And with that comes a liberal judicial attitude that if you scared someone who was committing criminal trespass on your property by merely showing a firearm it can go down bad for "Banishing" a dangerous weapon on your own property while asking someone to leave. I have about three or four of these trespass issues per year. always in the summer. Two years ago, a guy came up the driveway, saw the signs, stopped, backed up and rolled his car in the ditch on my property, people were hurt, ambulances, State Police, I asked the State trooper to give the driver a ticket, he refused, and told me to mind my own business, or I would be arrested. The guy was trespassing. Now his insurance company wants "MY" Home (Cabin) Owners Insurance Company to pay because my logging road is not to California Code........:)

[Rick]

But what if they get in the car and drive right up to the door.

That's why I suggested some sort of barricade. Even a cable stretched across the front of the cabin, at some distance you're comfortable with, keeps them from driving to the front door and forces them out of the vehicle. At that point, you'll know their intentions or at least if they are armed. Even if you gate the drive at say 50 yards from the cabin. Kind of a pain for you but keeps the intruders at bay.

[Rick]

Some states do have brandishing laws, Alaska may be one. Brandishing is nothing more than displaying it so that's a tough call.

Have you talked to anyone in town that might have seen the vehicle and/or know who they were?

[Boker]

You have no idea much I don't want to open this "CAN of WORMS". So I request if you don't have Empirical points to bring forth, that you restrain from giving your OPINION. Cops are trained extensively in the shoot/don't shoot. They have special drills, special targets, special video targets, and still they make mistakes.

I am looking for clear rules of decision making, not opinions.

There is a point where it is clearly time to shoot center of mass to stop the clear threat to you or your family.

There is also a large area of engagement where it is CLEAR you are not yet in eminent danger.

It is the Gray area between the two I wish to discuss. To narrow the Gray as much as possible. We are talking about the life of a human. Also any rules like if your going to confront two men, do you do it as far away as possible, or at a distance of your choosing, for example let them get half way from their car to you so they can't use the car for cover, etc.

I am looking for clear points to remember so as to make the Gray area as small as possible. Yes, I have taken concealed carry classes, and have my own handgun range. The nearest COP is one hour and twenty minutes away. So call the cops, and let the professional handle it is not an option.

I didn't read all the post, but the simple answer I was taught:

1. Action
2. Intent
3. Ability

As long as any 2 of the 3 are present its justified. I'm not a cop nor a lawyer. Its just how I was taught.

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

I didn't read all the post, but the simple answer I was taught:

1. Action
2. Intent
3. Ability

As long as any 2 of the 3 are present its justified. I'm not a cop nor a lawyer. Its just how I was taught.

Well I guess those are met!! Boomyoghgh!:clap:

[crashdive123]

I'm glad to see that some serious consideration is being given to the responses in this thread. For the most part the folks on this forum are pretty level headed. I kind of shake my head sometimes when somebody (not anybody that has responded here) so cavalierly announces things like "they look at me funny and I'm blowing them away". While that is certainly an option, it is not reality for most of the level headed folks here. A critical factor in a scenario like this is making the decision when to take action, but the real meat and potatoes may come after that. Can you live with the decision you made? I don't think anybody that has responded would have trouble defending themselves and protecting others. Living with the consequences of that decision may be the hard part. Of course, if you decide wrong that may be a short lived consequence.

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

I'm glad to see that some serious consideration is being given to the responses in this thread. For the most part the folks on this forum are pretty level headed. I kind of shake my head sometimes when somebody (not anybody that has responded here) so cavalierly announces things like "they look at me funny and I'm blowing them away". While that is certainly an option, it is not reality for most of the level headed folks here. A critical factor in a scenario like this is making the decision when to take action, but the real meat and potatoes may come after that. Can you live with the decision you made? I don't think anybody that has responded would have trouble defending themselves and protecting others. Living with the consequences of that decision may be the hard part. Of course, if you decide wrong that may be a short lived consequence.

I agree Crash! This guy Hopeak! who I am just beginning to hear some of his typing really makes you think and it puts you to where you consider his and your situation.. well I sit after a comment and wonder how he got me so riled up.....

[mcfd45]

Gas to gun show. $5
2 knives $30
ziploc bags $1.79
Having a throwdown knife in case their is any doubt you had to defend your house......priceless.

[sgtdraino]

Hopeak, sounds like it may be time for some non-lethal trip wire rigs.

I suggest you don't do traps. Many states have laws against them, and you open yourself up to all kinds of liability even from trespassers, if your traps injure them.


Let's say, and i hope not...that they come back.
Park their truck/car and start walking towards your cabin.

No visible weapon.
What then ?
Is that the grey you are talking about ?

This is probably the biggest gray area. People walking up to your house with no visible weapon, refusing to stop. Tricky what to say about that.

Here's an idea: Check with your local LEOs on the use of shotgun pepper rounds. You might legitimately be able to fire these at the approachers once you can articulate that they are trespassing on your property, even if they aren't yet demonstrating deadly intent, since pepper rounds are not lethal force.

Definitely check with your local LEOs and laws first, though.


Hopeak - What if you stuck that new AR out the window and fire a couple of shots? If the law would happen to show up just plead ignorance and tell them you were doing some target practice out back and didn't even see anyone. You don't have to shoot them just toss some rounds.

If you do this, I would say just make sure you are not even remotely firing those rounds in their direction. Like somebody else said, shoot out the back door in the opposite direction, so they can hear the shots, but never see the weapon, and can't articulate/testify that you were shooting at them.


Remy, you nailed it 100% perfect......100% or what if they get out of the car, with guns in hand, and start walking to the cabin, I yell, what do you want, they keep walking my way, I yell, STOP and they keep walking.

As others have said, walking up to your house with guns in hand and refusing your order to stop is really not much of a gray area. They are displaying a deadly threat, they have not identified themselves as law officers, and they are trespassing on your property. Take cover (very important), and at the point which you feel you are in imminent danger of serious harm from them, do what you have to do.


Because if there was to be an issue I wanted them divorced from the safety of their car, and any heavier firepower that it might contain. Also they were protected somewhat by the car doors that they stayed behind. And I did not want to tip my hand about being home, or how many were in the cabin.

Here's an idea: How about you install an intercom/PA system, with a button for visitors to press at the perimeter of your property? They will have utterly no legitimate reason for proceeding up towards your door without trying to contact you, and you will be able to issue directives from cover that you can be absolutely certain they will hear.


a warning shot hitting the ground between them and another request to annouce their business on your property any further advance without response and the second shot ripps through the skinny guys big toe!

I would advise against warning shots. Warning shots are also considered deadly force, so in order to fire one, you must be able to articulate how you could have legitimately shot them dead in order to stop the threat. But, the very fact that you chose not to actually shoot them sort of weakens your case that you were justified in using deadly force.

You fire a warning shot, they leave, make up whatever story about you they want, and then you see cops two days later. If you need to shoot them, shoot them. No time to make up stories, keep them there in that situation, so it is clear to law enforcement what went down.


Gun in hand isn't a gray area with me in a remote cabin. There is no reason for someone I don't know, on my land, to exit a vehicle with a firearm in their hands. If he doesn't have a badge and I hadn't called for help any warning shots will be because I missed. At that point there is only tactical considerations. Mac

Yep.


Alaska Statutes Chapter 81 - General Provisions.

Pretty strong self-defense laws in Alaska! Very nice!


That's why I suggested some sort of barricade. Even a cable stretched across the front of the cabin, at some distance you're comfortable with, keeps them from driving to the front door and forces them out of the vehicle. At that point, you'll know their intentions or at least if they are armed. Even if you gate the drive at say 50 yards from the cabin. Kind of a pain for you but keeps the intruders at bay.

Good idea, I like it. Needs to be clearly marked though, so they can't claim it's a booby trap.


Some states do have brandishing laws, Alaska may be one. Brandishing is nothing more than displaying it so that's a tough call.

For brandishing to apply, you would generally have to at least have the gun out of its holser, in your hand, ready to shoot. A gun in a holster, even with your hand resting on it, is not brandishing. A rifle or shotgun slung on your shoulder should not be brandishing either, so long as it is not instantly ready to fire, like with some of these combat slings.

[Sourdough]

Sgtdraino, Thank you......if you think of anything else, please post it. It is interesting that for safety people often think, the further away you are from hoards of humans, the safer you are. Have you ever seen numbers on the odds in a gun fight, say one on one vs. two on one vs.three on one, etc.?????

[Ken]

I suggest you don't do traps. Many states have laws against them, and you open yourself up to all kinds of liability even from trespassers, if your traps injure them.

Sorry, I wasn't all that clear in my post. The "non-lethal trip wire rigs" I was referring to are the alarm type we talked about here some months back. Set up with a blank 12 gauge shell, legal pyro-technic device, etc. The system is meant to give early warning of an intruder - nothing else.

[Rick]

For brandishing to apply, you would generally have to at least have the gun out of its holser, in your hand, ready to shoot. A gun in a holster, even with your hand resting on it, is not brandishing.

Perhaps in your state that is true but simply displaying a weapon, holstered or not, is considered brandishing in some states if it induces fear in me. And, it doesn't have to induce fear for my own safety. I might be afraid for other family members and that can be considered brandishing.

From a 2005 Surpreme Court of Virginia ruling: "“Brandish” means “to exhibit or expose in an ostentatious, shameless, or aggressive manner.” Webster's Third New International Dictionary, 268 (1993). When Morris looked at Ms. Molina, said “[he'd] like that,” and then pulled up his shirt to uncover the flare gun, he exhibited or exposed the weapon in a shameless or aggressive manner. And Morris brandished the weapon in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of Peter Molina. Although Molina may not have said he was in fear for his own safety, he stated unequivocally that he feared for the safety of his wife, and that is sufficient to prove the “induced fear” element of a conviction for brandishing a firearm."

In this case, the defendant simply displayed a flare gun.

[Sourdough]

I have been advised, by very p!ssed-off Alaska State Troopers, that when I walk out of my cabin, carrying a firearm pointed in a "SAFE" Direction, like straight up at the sky, that I am Brandishing a Firearm. To which I respond, "There are lots of bears on the property, and I was just going to the outhouse".:innocent::innocent::innocent:
America was a goooder place in the 40's & 50's......sadly it will be a worst place in the teens' & 20's.

[Ole WV Coot]

Perhaps in your state that is true but simply displaying a weapon, holstered or not, is considered brandishing in some states if it induces fear in me. And, it doesn't have to induce fear for my own safety. I might be afraid for other family members and that can be considered brandishing.

From a 2005 Surpreme Court of Virginia ruling: "“Brandish” means “to exhibit or expose in an ostentatious, shameless, or aggressive manner.” Webster's Third New International Dictionary, 268 (1993). When Morris looked at Ms. Molina, said “[he'd] like that,” and then pulled up his shirt to uncover the flare gun, he exhibited or exposed the weapon in a shameless or aggressive manner. And Morris brandished the weapon in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of Peter Molina. Although Molina may not have said he was in fear for his own safety, he stated unequivocally that he feared for the safety of his wife, and that is sufficient to prove the “induced fear” element of a conviction for brandishing a firearm."

In this case, the defendant simply displayed a flare gun.

You are exactly head-on Rick. If a hand on a holstered gun doesn't intimidate as in brandishing I am badly fooled. This is a bad habit some rookie LEOs love to do. It's sorta like look at my big gun, I can use it on you or clean your nails with a 12" Bowie while expounding your point of view and daring another to disagree. Some folks like me take this as a challenge and respond in kind.

[Rick]

It would be nice to determine, with some certainty, who they were. Perhaps they got gas in Hope or stopped and picked up something. Someone may have seen them and know who they are or know enough so you SHOULD be concerned. Either way, the not knowing may cause you to spend money unnecessarily and give you some sleepless nights.

[sgtdraino]

Perhaps in your state that is true but simply displaying a weapon, holstered or not, is considered brandishing in some states if it induces fear in me. And, it doesn't have to induce fear for my own safety. I might be afraid for other family members and that can be considered brandishing.

Certainly you should check to see what the specifics of brandishing law in Alaska is.

However, I would still maintain that a pistol in a holster on your belt in plain view should not be considered brandishing in any state, so long as you don't make suggestive comments or gestures regarding the weapon.

[Sourdough]

Certainly you should check to see what the specifics of brandishing law in Alaska is.

However, I would still maintain that a pistol in a holster on your belt in plain view should not be considered brandishing in any state, so long as you don't make suggestive comments or gestures regarding the weapon.

A REAL MAN does not take a pistol to a gun fight, "a pistol is what you use to fight your way back to your rifle". A Real Man does not want to find his butt in a gun fight, thinking I need a bigger firearm. No, If this cowboy is going to play kissie'face with a problem, he be bringing the best solution, having little interest in second place in a gun fight. So my go to the outhouse "Protection" tool is a full'dressed 6.8 SPC Rock River AR-15. We have well armed bears.

Sgt. question, would a never seen CZ 75 SP01 held behind ones back and never viewed by the problem be considered brandishing...? If they did not see it that is not brandishing. And besides there is often no time, when someone is ......bear...grizzly..got to go

[endurance]

As one comes up the 3/8 mile of driveway there are six large signs: "WARNING", Property protected by Security Cameras, signs.

There are other Warning signs, and posted signs, and signs that say DANGER, "authorized personal only". and signs that say DANGER "Construction Area". So if they come up the mountain, and stop at the final drive, park 90 yards from the cabin, with smoke coming out the wood stove chimney, have two cigarettes, talk and point at stuff. while parked 7' from a large warning sign with a security camera mounted on top, and point at the other cameras. I figure it is not Ed McMahon with my Publishers Clearinghouse Check.
I was listening to a survival podcast talking about security for remote locations and he brought up a very valid point. Most people when confronted on private property they shouldn't be on tell the owners "I'm just lost" and you don't have much recourse at that point. So he had some signs made up that said "You're not lost, you're trespassing" and 90% of the problems went away.

Further up his road he had another sign that said "If you are lost, turn around now-road ends on private property. Trespassers subject to arrest".

Somehow you just have to take away their innocent defense to make them think twice.

As for the use of force, to me, there is no gray area- If you cannot convince a jury that you were in imminent fear for your safety and the safety of your family, you'll wish you never pulled the trigger when you sit in your jail cell. In my mind that means if I have the time to stop and think about the situation rather than react in accordance with my training and experience, it's probably not a shot I want to take.

[Pict]

Open carry is legal in AK. You're fine with a holstered handgun, especially on your own property. Holding a handgun behind your leg is as good as saying that you have a gun. Anyone with ill intent will treat it as such. It is an unnatural position to hold your hand in. A gun in a jacket pocket is another matter, that is a very natural position.

You had asked for a few statistics about gunfights.

75% of the people who run in gunfights are not hit while running.
90% of the people who get behind bulletproof cover in a gunfight are not hit by gunfire.
100% of the people who stay out of gunfights altogether are not hit by gunfire.

The moral of the story is to stay out of gunfights but to RUN for COVER if forced to engage in one. You dramatically increase your survival rate.

It takes three men armed with rifles to neutralize one man in a defensive position with a rifle. This has held true since the beginnings of rifle fights. If you are a lone defender you will get pinned and flanked if they have a three to one advantage and they know what they are doing. You can moderate that by laying down very aggressive fire and using your home court advantage to reduce their numbers.

You mentioned cars. Cars are very poor cover against a rifle they sail right through. Even a 5.56 or 9mm handgun does a really good job of penetrating inside a car, 5.56 tends to break up going through the far side. Your 6.8 would fare better. The only place on a car that gives good cover is behind the front tires keeping the engine between you and the shooter. Even then bullets can reach under a car and skip off the hood at head level of someone kneeling behind it. Fire as far under a car as you can to skip bullets into a target taking cover.

I would never knowingly enter a fight armed with only a handgun. Handguns are only a back-up to your rifle. If you need a handgun to fight to your rifle I'd say you got lazy with your rifle and you're about to get mauled. A rifle without several loaded magazines is only a temporary rifle. Mac

[Sourdough]

And besides there is often no time, when someone is ......bear...grizzly..got to go

Well the grizzly was only a three year old, and was more lonely than dangerous. He did not want to leave, but pushed him off the property, and called the neighbor to advise a guest was coming. It feels strange to confront a grizzly in your undershorts, (it is 88 degrees in the cabin because of the goose and turkey chicks need to be warm). Three year olds are the problem bears, for destroying property.

[glockcop]

As long as you can articulate that your life (or other human life) was in immediate danger when you chose to use lethal force you will be in the clear. Remember , YOU have to make it CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD to the police. Choose your words wisely only after you have spoken to your lawyer. When the police arrive, you should be standing there empty handed (assuming there is no longer a threat) and the conversation should go something like this, COP: "What is your name and address Sir....Sr, could you tell me what happened that led you to your decesion to shoot this individual". YOU: "Officer my name is ____ and I live at ....Officer I have an unloaded weapon on my person that I would like you to secure NOW...I am willing to accompany you to police headquarters and to answer any questions. I am willing to cooperate to the fullest as soon as I speak to a lawyer....Thank you for understanding ,Sir". Chances are the cop will be simpathetic and slightly glad that you took such action if it was obvious that the perp was indead trying to kill you. The D.A.'s Office may not be so understanding. That is why you will need your Lawyer BEFORE statements are given. You will need time to regain a clear mind. Your statements can and will come back to bite you in the a$$ long after your interview with the police is over and the D.A. has time to pick apart your story. Best..

[Ken]

I am willing to cooperate to the fullest as soon as I speak to a lawyer...Sir".

Good advice. Some folks have actually called me BEFORE they call the police.

[Ken]

I figure it is not Ed McMahon with my Publishers Clearinghouse Check.

He won't be coming by anymore. He passed away this morning. :crying:

Ed McMahon Dead At Age 86

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/06/23/BACR18C4UR.DTL&type=entertainment

[Sourdough]

"The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber" by Ernest Hemmingway or the short life of the chicken eatin Grizzly. Only 3 years old and on "Wanted Posters".

[nell67]

Get him hopeak!!!

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

Hopeak,

Is it true domesticated turkeys will, if left without a roof in the rain hold their mouths open and drown themselves. I heard this was true as a young boy and never knew if the old guy was just pullin' my leg?

[Rick]

http://i348.photobucket.com/albums/q348/safe_zone/reward.jpg

[Sourdough]

Hopeak,

Is it true domesticated turkeys will, if left without a roof in the rain hold their mouths open and drown themselves. I heard this was true as a young boy and never knew if the old guy was just pullin' my leg?


I can only speak to my turkeys, they have never had a roof in 1 1/2 years, and it rains a lot here. What is more impressive is that they were outdoors all 24/7/365 get no water all winter, eat snow, I give them feed, it is -28* to -36* Below for six weeks at a time, and they and the geese do fine.

[Sourdough]

http://i348.photobucket.com/albums/q348/safe_zone/reward.jpg

I wonder how many people would know that is three photos, the head is wrong, in fact the head is in the wrong location, and the front and back are different bears......:)

[Schleprok]

Hope, it could be as innocent as someone looking for a different place, or as bad as someone scouting your place out. If they're scouting, pretty dumb move to do it so blatently.
Google "escalation of force". This will give you a little more knowledge based mostly on military and LEO.
There are non-lethal options to consider. Blunt (rubber) shells for shotguns may be the most readily available.

[oldsoldier]

[QUOTE= It feels strange to confront a grizzly in your undershorts,

Sooooo....... what was the bear doing in your undershorts anyway??

[Schleprok]

Hope, you may want a sitdown with a local lawyer. Get all the particulars. If not, check state statutes. Read up a little.
Friend of mine didn't get jail time but came close. Seems all the times he complained to law enforcement was used to say he had premeditated shooting someone. The fact that the someone that was shot was commiting a felony at the time became immaterial.
He was also sued later by the same someone. Even tho he shot for center mass, the perp did not die but ended up wheelchair bound.
Just something else to consider.

Used to be a fellow in KY had a sign by his front gate, right below the no trespassing sign that said something like "it was 100 yards from the house, and his scoped 30-30 was zeroed at 100 yards, any questions?" He eventually removed that sign after a few years... not sure why.

Bottom line, it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Just make sure you are not setting yourself up with the actions leading up to a shoot.

[crashdive123]

It feels strange to confront a grizzly in your undershorts,

Sooooo....... what was the bear doing in your undershorts anyway??

Now that there's funny. I don't care who you are.

[Sourdough]

.....well I have a special moose, she has big brown eyes, and long legs....well we have been not communicating.....and it just happened...I am not proud of it. Now Molly Moose has gone off to greener pastures...I tried to explain, I really tried but Molly, well you would just have to know Molly...Did I tell you about her eyes, she has the brown'est.....:innocent:

[Rick]

it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6

Uh, no. You don't have to be judged by or carried by any. That's my goal.

Hopeak - You've had that place for sale. Could it have been someone thinking about buying it?

[Sourdough]

Hopeak - You've had that place for sale. Could it have been someone thinking about buying it?

Possible, Not very likely, but possible.....

[Rick]

Sure hate to see you drop a cash buyer. Money would be flying through the air like feathers from a tarmigan on the wrong side of a 12 ga.

[Sourdough]

FYI, AK has a castle law, but not a stand-your-ground law.

They "MIGHT" have just changed that. Anyway, I figure my 15.6 acres is my castle....:) I would be dead meat/easy pickings if caught inside the cabin. Way better chance outside the cabin.

[Sourdough]

One could argue that idea...

The cabin is 11' by 23' one room, with windows on all four walls. If I am looking one direction, I could be shot from the three other windows. There is no place to hide.

[mcfd45]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

If you ever need to do anything make sure you remember this video. Well worth the 45ish minutes.

[bulrush]

Unless those dogs are trained guard dogs, they don't mean squat. A little raw meat and they are your best friend. Everyone thinks big dogs intimidate folks when all the studies and the pros themselves say otherwise. I worked outside for over a decade, met just about every type of dog you could possibly run into on his property and never got dog bit.

I can tell you that big dogs don't scare me at all. Not German shepards, rotts, doberman's or nothing. I like dogs but have no tolerance for bad parenting of dogs. I'm just saying, I don't bother them if they bark, but if they bite me or mine, your dog will immediately be disciplined.

Dogs are cute and fuzzy, but dumb and slow when wrestling.

In fact, with the ill behaved dogs of friends I have been known to apply quick doggie discipline. The dog was either barking incessantly or nipping at me or my family, and I immediately illustrated who was the alpha dog in this group. Works every time. Years later I watched all of the "Dog Whisperer" series and I now know I was right for doing what I did. BTW, I didn't hurt the dogs.

[bulrush]

You are exactly head-on Rick. If a hand on a holstered gun doesn't intimidate as in brandishing I am badly fooled. This is a bad habit some rookie LEOs love to do. It's sorta like look at my big gun, I can use it on you or clean your nails with a 12" Bowie while expounding your point of view and daring another to disagree. Some folks like me take this as a challenge and respond in kind.

If you pull out a 12" Bowie and start to clean your nails, I think you have dirty nails. That's how I was raised. You're not acting aggressive so the knife is a tool and not a weapon at this point.

However I can pull out my car keys and poke that scab on your arm, at which point I'm using a deadly weapon in an assault. That's the way the justice system is these days. It is quite thoroughly divorced from common sense.

[Ole WV Coot]

If you pull out a 12" Bowie and start to clean your nails, I think you have dirty nails. That's how I was raised. You're not acting aggressive so the knife is a tool and not a weapon at this point.

However I can pull out my car keys and poke that scab on your arm, at which point I'm using a deadly weapon in an assault. That's the way the justice system is these days. It is quite thoroughly divorced from common sense.

Common sense went out the window with a lot of freedoms. I have my little comfort zone that I defend, maybe a little paranoid. If someone stabbed at me with a wet noodle I would need an extra good attorney.:smash:

[Pal334]

Common sense went out the window with a lot of freedoms. I have my little comfort zone that I defend, maybe a little paranoid. If someone stabbed at me with a wet noodle I would need an extra good attorney.:smash:

A shameless solicitation for Ken. Keep him in mind, if nothing else, he is entertaining :)

[crashdive123]

I like dogs but have no tolerance for bad parenting of dogs. I'm just saying, I don't bother them if they bark, but if they bite me or mine, your dog will immediately be disciplined.

Dogs are cute and fuzzy, but dumb and slow when wrestling.
I have a customer (police officer) that has three German Shepards. If one of them bites you the only disciplining going on will be coming from surviving family members....just saying.

[crashdive123]

Looks like those dogs need to be disciplined.....but I ain't doing it.

[Rick]

I know exactly what I'd do if I were attacked by animals like that....scream like a girl. Probably cry, too.

[Ken]

Common sense went out the window with a lot of freedoms. I have my little comfort zone that I defend, maybe a little paranoid. If someone stabbed at me with a wet noodle I would need an extra good attorney.:smash:


A shameless solicitation for Ken. Keep him in mind, if nothing else, he is entertaining :)

Check's in the mail, Coot.

[FVR]

Few things. This post is a good reason why I don't carry a gun. The gray area, I feel that unless I take it seriously and take the class' that would instill in me, that decision making cabability to make or try to make the right decision, I have no business with a gun in public.

As far as dogs, we learned how to deal with attack dogs in Panama. One on one, poor dog gonna die and FVR is going to have a bloody arm.

If I have a knife and am lucky, I may can handle two for a second if I can get the right cut.

Chances are two or more dogs, FVR is just one big dog treat.

[Sourdough]

Few things. This post is a good reason why I don't carry a gun. The gray area, I feel that unless I take it seriously and take the class' that would instill in me, that decision making cabability to make or try to make the right decision, I have no business with a gun in public.

There is ALWAYS a gray area, even for cops, even for cops who train cops. Just as for me this week with the little grizzly 10' away. Because I have made the gray area so small with bears, it worked well for both of us. Someone else would have a much larger gray area with bears, and would have shot the bear at 100' (33 Yards). Better safe than sorry. I think I like the bears more than the human tresspassers..........I know they are less covert.

[kx250kev]

Just thought I'd chime in with a cheap solution to get some advanced notice. These things work well, have a long battery life, pretty long distance and you can use multiple motion detectors with one alarm receiver to form a perimeter alarm.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93068

P.s. Helps to cover the LED on the motion detectors to avoid their detection.

[ClayPick]

Due to geography I’ve not been given the privilege of carrying a firearm on a regular basis but I find it to be no big deal. Here’s my Shepard playing fetch the fence post. It keeps his neck and jaws strong.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v92/Back_Burner/leefetch.jpg

[kx250kev]

Due to geography I’ve not been given the privilege of carrying a firearm on a regular basis but I find it to be no big deal. Here’s my Shepard playing fetch the fence post. It keeps his neck and jaws strong.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v92/Back_Burner/leefetch.jpg

Great dog! Mine GS does that very same thing with 2x4's and other campfire wood. Loves fetch! It always amazes me how much they can carry and how strong their jaws are. I swear my dog could break a humans arm bones if it wanted to.

[glockcop]

There is ALWAYS a gray area, even for cops, even for cops who train cops. Just as for me this week with the little grizzly 10' away. Because I have made the gray area so small with bears, it worked well for both of us. Someone else would have a much larger gray area with bears, and would have shot the bear at 100' (33 Yards). Better safe than sorry. I think I like the bears more than the human tresspassers..........I know they are less covert.

There is NO GRAY AREA if you can articulate that your life or other human life was in IMMEDIATE DANGER when you chose to use lethal force. It's that easy. As far as that, "Even cops that train cops", thing goes; that is TOTALLY UNTRUE. When we train a cadet in the use of force he is taught the basic fundamentals of lethal force in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS. Poor decision making that sometimes has to be made in a split second is to blame. The facts are still the facts....WAS YOUR LIFE (OR OTHER HUMAN LIFE) IN IMMEDIATE DANGER...and make sure you can explain why. In court this will be compared to what another reasonable person would have done under similar circumstances....Not some mystical gray area. And bears.....what the hell. These things are non human and carnivorous. Very dangerous indead....this is not rocket science. If it gets too close for comfort , kill the damn thing! Pretty freakin simple to me. Kill a human without cause you go to jail...kill a bear w/o cause and you get a summons / ticket and a fine. Not much to compare there.

[Sourdough]

Grizzly Bears are not Carnivores, they are Omnivores. People shoot a lot of bears that they think are a danger to them, when in fact they can not tell if they are in danger or not in danger. Which is my point, there is a gray area. And there are a lot of mistakes. Two guys walking up my driveway with handguns, at 100 Yards they are not a clear threat, at 10 yards they are a clear threat. Where did they cross from "no threat" to "threat", at 50 yards, at 25 yards. How does this change if there are three, or one.....? I would allow a Grizzly to walk right up to me and have thousands of time, you would start shooting the Grizzly at 30 yards or farther. I live with bears you live with people. You understand people danger, I do not. I understand bear danger you do not.

[glockcop]

Grizzly Bears are not Carnivores, they are Omnivores. People shoot a lot of bears that they think are a danger to them, when in fact they can not tell if they are in danger or not in danger. Which is my point, there is a gray area. And there are a lot of mistakes. Two guys walking up my driveway with handguns, at 100 Yards they are not a clear threat, at 10 yards they are a clear threat. Where did they cross from "no threat" to "threat", at 50 yards, at 25 yards. How does this change if there are three, or one.....? I would allow a Grizzly to walk right up to me and have thousands of time, you would start shooting the Grizzly at 30 yards or farther. I live with bears you live with people. You understand people danger, I do not. I understand bear danger you do not.

They would be a threat in my mind when their guns started to point even slightly in my direction at any yardage once communication was made and they understood that I was not a threat. Also, If their verbage became aggressive ,even if their guns were at the low ready, they would be a threat. Remember , "What would another reasonable person do under similar circumstances".That is how you will be judged. "Omnivoures" , "Carnivores" NO DIFFERENCE when they can eat you. Hopefully not, but when one finally does look at you like dinner you can tell him all day long that he should eat his salad first and it wont matter. The outcome will still be one dead good guy and one full bear. No I don't advocate killing anything that is not earmarked as food or a threat. BUT a bear 10 ft away may just be curious as to what the hell you are. Then again he may be sizing you up for the big dirt napp. Sooner or later a wild animal WILL bite the hand that feeds it PERIOD. We had a recent case locally with a 13ft. alligator that people fed daily and even affectionately nicknamed him "BIG JOE". An 11 year old kid swimming in the pond lost his arm to "BIG JOE" and nearly died when the gator tried to make lunch of him. "BIG JOE" had to go and was sent to the big swamp in the sky by a .40 cal. compliments of the La. Wildlife and Fisheries. Good luck with your "bear social time" friend. Myself , I will keep your bears and our gators at a comfortale distance. The ONLY thing I need to understand is that WILD animals and criminals can hurt / kill you given the chance. Best.

[yellowcab]

XIII (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/239)378 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/495)Bett (http://eyesvision.ru/better-eyesight-magazine-better-eyesight-1926-10)Bett (http://eyesvisions.com/better-eyesight-magazine-better-eyesight-1920-07)Comp (http://factoringfee.ru)Миха (http://filmzones.ru)Walk (http://gadwall.ru)Dona (http://gaffertape.ru)Busi (http://gageboard.ru)Крав (http://gagrule.ru)SOCO (http://gallduct.ru)Bibe (http://galvanometric.ru)Bras (http://gangforeman.ru)Wind (http://gangwayplatform.ru)Fisk (http://garbagechute.ru)
Fait (http://gardeningleave.ru)Orie (http://gascautery.ru)EXPE (http://gashbucket.ru)Tefa (http://gasreturn.ru)Film (http://gatedsweep.ru)изго (http://gaugemodel.ru)When (http://gaussianfilter.ru)Кита (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru)орие (http://geartreating.ru)Myst (http://generalizedanalysis.ru)Afef (http://generalprovisions.ru)Kasd (http://geophysicalprobe.ru)Wind (http://geriatricnurse.ru)Denn (http://getintoaflap.ru)Phil (http://getthebounce.ru)
MAGI (http://habeascorpus.ru)унив (http://habituate.ru)�ерт (http://hackedbolt.ru)опуб (http://hackworker.ru)(МИФ (http://hadronicannihilation.ru)Flor (http://haemagglutinin.ru)Генк (http://hailsquall.ru)Doct (http://hairysphere.ru)(Пер (http://halforderfringe.ru)Клуш (http://halfsiblings.ru)Marg (http://hallofresidence.ru)Elec (http://haltstate.ru)Вели (http://handcoding.ru)�лдо (http://handportedhead.ru)�игн (http://handradar.ru)
Ñ�ерт (http://handsfreetelephone.ru)Phil (http://hangonpart.ru)Pito (http://haphazardwinding.ru)понÑ� (http://hardalloyteeth.ru)Caro (http://hardasiron.ru)штам (http://hardenedconcrete.ru)Ð*око (http://harmonicinteraction.ru)Sony (http://hartlaubgoose.ru)море (http://hatchholddown.ru)John (http://haveafinetime.ru)приш (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru)horr (http://headregulator.ru)Ð*уба (http://heartofgold.ru)Ð*убц (http://heatageingresistance.ru)Выпу (http://heatinggas.ru)
Мо�к (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)Гора (http://jacketedwall.ru)Carn (http://japanesecedar.ru)Смир (http://jibtypecrane.ru)Данг (http://jobabandonment.ru)Перв (http://jobstress.ru)Мали (http://jogformation.ru)Firs (http://jointcapsule.ru)Кемп (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)Roma (http://journallubricator.ru)Lovi (http://juicecatcher.ru)�пра (http://junctionofchannels.ru)Cros (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)Wind (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)Keep (http://kaposidisease.ru)
Вали (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)Prot (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)Rola (http://kentishglory.ru)Воло (http://kerbweight.ru)вызы (http://kerrrotation.ru)Boat (http://keymanassurance.ru)Jewe (http://keyserum.ru)Дмит (http://kickplate.ru)03-0 (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)Magi (http://kilowattsecond.ru)Eati (http://kingweakfish.ru)любо (http://kinozones.ru/film/5135)Пе�т (http://kleinbottle.ru)ISSB (http://kneejoint.ru)Mich (http://knifesethouse.ru)
Best (http://knockonatom.ru)Jerz (http://knowledgestate.ru)Cosm (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)�рти (http://labeledgraph.ru)чи�т (http://laborracket.ru)Half (http://labourearnings.ru)мен� (http://labourleasing.ru)Side (http://laburnumtree.ru)игру (http://lacingcourse.ru)Kreo (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)Иллю (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)Lewi (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)John (http://ladletreatediron.ru)Stef (http://laggingload.ru)�тра (http://laissezaller.ru)
Giga (http://lambdatransition.ru)Howa (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)Brai (http://lammasshoot.ru)Kese (http://lamphouse.ru)архи (http://lancecorporal.ru)Conn (http://lancingdie.ru)Fran (http://landingdoor.ru)Bett (http://landmarksensor.ru)Sing (http://landreform.ru)Help (http://landuseratio.ru)Brun (http://languagelaboratory.ru)хоро (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1827158)укра (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/1827098)Audi (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/1343)NARD (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/1030771)

[yellowcab]

Inde (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1030777)Lieb (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/452950)Kris (http://layabout.ru/shop/601849)Book (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/1418648)моза (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/465398)Book (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/909086)Desi (http://leaveword.ru/shop/1193236)0010 (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/447542)�рти (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/925411)4902 (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/925405)Mist (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/577066)8069 (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/789455)Pion (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/1194725)prec (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/614207)вооб (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/1176427)
ХОЗУ (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/1545229)по�о (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/295)Inst (http://mp3lists.ru/item/4607)Мак� (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/1689139)пазл (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/1034660)ловк (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/472064)Assa (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/1389245)Grac (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/1482359)плеч (http://navelseed.ru/shop/454749)wwwr (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/1214420)Гори (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/264210)вред (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/652944)iste (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/1026259)CHAR (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/472951)Siem (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/10205)
днем (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/1032785)Ñ�ерт (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/458327)soft (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/571751)Asto (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/1154388)игра (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/1256976)зака (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/322040)Fant (http://onesticket.ru/shop/584499)Nova (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/585647)Ð�ндр (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/689916)ЛитÐ* (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/690900)ЛитÐ* (http://palmberry.ru/shop/956516)подр (http://papercoating.ru/shop/683158)Nige (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/1690667)Ñ�тор (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1710481)Тевф (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1178332)
harl (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1421084)Пи�ь (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1538470)Тибе (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/1546443)неза (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/1709230)Перв (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/740081)очер (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/945362)aliy (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/1232470)Meda (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1458947)Amig (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/1504462)Duty (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/519885)Куте (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/899422)Dona (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/975640)комм (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/1651260)Прот (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/1431934)кара (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/1559866)
огра (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/636402)Яков (http://rearchain.ru/shop/880288)пита (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/973448)учре (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/1655058)Коле (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1662375)авто (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1668426)Бург (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1690162)Mart (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1716026)жизн (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1774166)Mirr (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/1785676)Пли� (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1823015)Fran (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1848750)УШек (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1856388)Кон� (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1897621)Henr (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1918823)
Деди (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1932113)Фоми (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1950487)авто (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1964104)nigh (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/1977267)тона (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/1464359)Петр (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/1498696)FORE (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/1610641)Бей� (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/1658932)школ (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/1680617)Disn (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/1715944)Audi (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/1343)Audi (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/1343)Audi (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/1343)Черн (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/1737649)Орло (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/1765754)
Смир (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/1773741)Пушк (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/1776894)чтен (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/1784992)Numb (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/506256)Exce (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1856149)мате (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/1901962)Mang (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/1973393)Busi (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/893126)Холо (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/943084)учит (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/986597)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)Соде (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/988883)wwwn (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/488684)

[yellowcab]

audiobookkeeper.ru (http://audiobookkeeper.ru)cottagenet.ru (http://cottagenet.ru)eyesvision.ru (http://eyesvision.ru)eyesvisions.com (http://eyesvisions.com)factoringfee.ru (http://factoringfee.ru)filmzones.ru (http://filmzones.ru)gadwall.ru (http://gadwall.ru)gaffertape.ru (http://gaffertape.ru)gageboard.ru (http://gageboard.ru)gagrule.ru (http://gagrule.ru)gallduct.ru (http://gallduct.ru)galvanometric.ru (http://galvanometric.ru)gangforeman.ru (http://gangforeman.ru)gangwayplatform.ru (http://gangwayplatform.ru)garbagechute.ru (http://garbagechute.ru)
gardeningleave.ru (http://gardeningleave.ru)gascautery.ru (http://gascautery.ru)gashbucket.ru (http://gashbucket.ru)gasreturn.ru (http://gasreturn.ru)gatedsweep.ru (http://gatedsweep.ru)gaugemodel.ru (http://gaugemodel.ru)gaussianfilter.ru (http://gaussianfilter.ru)gearpitchdiameter.ru (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru)geartreating.ru (http://geartreating.ru)generalizedanalysis.ru (http://generalizedanalysis.ru)generalprovisions.ru (http://generalprovisions.ru)geophysicalprobe.ru (http://geophysicalprobe.ru)geriatricnurse.ru (http://geriatricnurse.ru)getintoaflap.ru (http://getintoaflap.ru)getthebounce.ru (http://getthebounce.ru)
habeascorpus.ru (http://habeascorpus.ru)habituate.ru (http://habituate.ru)hackedbolt.ru (http://hackedbolt.ru)hackworker.ru (http://hackworker.ru)hadronicannihilation.ru (http://hadronicannihilation.ru)haemagglutinin.ru (http://haemagglutinin.ru)hailsquall.ru (http://hailsquall.ru)hairysphere.ru (http://hairysphere.ru)halforderfringe.ru (http://halforderfringe.ru)halfsiblings.ru (http://halfsiblings.ru)hallofresidence.ru (http://hallofresidence.ru)haltstate.ru (http://haltstate.ru)handcoding.ru (http://handcoding.ru)handportedhead.ru (http://handportedhead.ru)handradar.ru (http://handradar.ru)
handsfreetelephone.ru (http://handsfreetelephone.ru)hangonpart.ru (http://hangonpart.ru)haphazardwinding.ru (http://haphazardwinding.ru)hardalloyteeth.ru (http://hardalloyteeth.ru)hardasiron.ru (http://hardasiron.ru)hardenedconcrete.ru (http://hardenedconcrete.ru)harmonicinteraction.ru (http://harmonicinteraction.ru)hartlaubgoose.ru (http://hartlaubgoose.ru)hatchholddown.ru (http://hatchholddown.ru)haveafinetime.ru (http://haveafinetime.ru)hazardousatmosphere.ru (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru)headregulator.ru (http://headregulator.ru)heartofgold.ru (http://heartofgold.ru)heatageingresistance.ru (http://heatageingresistance.ru)heatinggas.ru (http://heatinggas.ru)
heavydutymetalcutting.ru (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)jacketedwall.ru (http://jacketedwall.ru)japanesecedar.ru (http://japanesecedar.ru)jibtypecrane.ru (http://jibtypecrane.ru)jobabandonment.ru (http://jobabandonment.ru)jobstress.ru (http://jobstress.ru)jogformation.ru (http://jogformation.ru)jointcapsule.ru (http://jointcapsule.ru)jointsealingmaterial.ru (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)journallubricator.ru (http://journallubricator.ru)juicecatcher.ru (http://juicecatcher.ru)junctionofchannels.ru (http://junctionofchannels.ru)justiciablehomicide.ru (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)juxtapositiontwin.ru (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)kaposidisease.ru (http://kaposidisease.ru)
keepagoodoffing.ru (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)keepsmthinhand.ru (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)kentishglory.ru (http://kentishglory.ru)kerbweight.ru (http://kerbweight.ru)kerrrotation.ru (http://kerrrotation.ru)keymanassurance.ru (http://keymanassurance.ru)keyserum.ru (http://keyserum.ru)kickplate.ru (http://kickplate.ru)killthefattedcalf.ru (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)kilowattsecond.ru (http://kilowattsecond.ru)kingweakfish.ru (http://kingweakfish.ru)kinozones.ru (http://kinozones.ru)kleinbottle.ru (http://kleinbottle.ru)kneejoint.ru (http://kneejoint.ru)knifesethouse.ru (http://knifesethouse.ru)
knockonatom.ru (http://knockonatom.ru)knowledgestate.ru (http://knowledgestate.ru)kondoferromagnet.ru (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)labeledgraph.ru (http://labeledgraph.ru)laborracket.ru (http://laborracket.ru)labourearnings.ru (http://labourearnings.ru)labourleasing.ru (http://labourleasing.ru)laburnumtree.ru (http://laburnumtree.ru)lacingcourse.ru (http://lacingcourse.ru)lacrimalpoint.ru (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)lactogenicfactor.ru (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)lacunarycoefficient.ru (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)ladletreatediron.ru (http://ladletreatediron.ru)laggingload.ru (http://laggingload.ru)laissezaller.ru (http://laissezaller.ru)
lambdatransition.ru (http://lambdatransition.ru)laminatedmaterial.ru (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)lammasshoot.ru (http://lammasshoot.ru)lamphouse.ru (http://lamphouse.ru)lancecorporal.ru (http://lancecorporal.ru)lancingdie.ru (http://lancingdie.ru)landingdoor.ru (http://landingdoor.ru)landmarksensor.ru (http://landmarksensor.ru)landreform.ru (http://landreform.ru)landuseratio.ru (http://landuseratio.ru)languagelaboratory.ru (http://languagelaboratory.ru)largeheart.ru (http://largeheart.ru)lasercalibration.ru (http://lasercalibration.ru)laserlens.ru (http://laserlens.ru)laserpulse.ru (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

laterevent.ru (http://laterevent.ru)latrinesergeant.ru (http://latrinesergeant.ru)layabout.ru (http://layabout.ru)leadcoating.ru (http://leadcoating.ru)leadingfirm.ru (http://leadingfirm.ru)learningcurve.ru (http://learningcurve.ru)leaveword.ru (http://leaveword.ru)machinesensible.ru (http://machinesensible.ru)magneticequator.ru (http://magneticequator.ru)magnetotelluricfield.ru (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)mailinghouse.ru (http://mailinghouse.ru)majorconcern.ru (http://majorconcern.ru)mammasdarling.ru (http://mammasdarling.ru)managerialstaff.ru (http://managerialstaff.ru)manipulatinghand.ru (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
manualchoke.ru (http://manualchoke.ru)medinfobooks.ru (http://medinfobooks.ru)mp3lists.ru (http://mp3lists.ru)nameresolution.ru (http://nameresolution.ru)naphtheneseries.ru (http://naphtheneseries.ru)narrowmouthed.ru (http://narrowmouthed.ru)nationalcensus.ru (http://nationalcensus.ru)naturalfunctor.ru (http://naturalfunctor.ru)navelseed.ru (http://navelseed.ru)neatplaster.ru (http://neatplaster.ru)necroticcaries.ru (http://necroticcaries.ru)negativefibration.ru (http://negativefibration.ru)neighbouringrights.ru (http://neighbouringrights.ru)objectmodule.ru (http://objectmodule.ru)observationballoon.ru (http://observationballoon.ru)
obstructivepatent.ru (http://obstructivepatent.ru)oceanmining.ru (http://oceanmining.ru)octupolephonon.ru (http://octupolephonon.ru)offlinesystem.ru (http://offlinesystem.ru)offsetholder.ru (http://offsetholder.ru)olibanumresinoid.ru (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)onesticket.ru (http://onesticket.ru)packedspheres.ru (http://packedspheres.ru)pagingterminal.ru (http://pagingterminal.ru)palatinebones.ru (http://palatinebones.ru)palmberry.ru (http://palmberry.ru)papercoating.ru (http://papercoating.ru)paraconvexgroup.ru (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)parasolmonoplane.ru (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)parkingbrake.ru (http://parkingbrake.ru)
partfamily.ru (http://partfamily.ru)partialmajorant.ru (http://partialmajorant.ru)quadrupleworm.ru (http://quadrupleworm.ru)qualitybooster.ru (http://qualitybooster.ru)quasimoney.ru (http://quasimoney.ru)quenchedspark.ru (http://quenchedspark.ru)quodrecuperet.ru (http://quodrecuperet.ru)rabbetledge.ru (http://rabbetledge.ru)radialchaser.ru (http://radialchaser.ru)radiationestimator.ru (http://radiationestimator.ru)railwaybridge.ru (http://railwaybridge.ru)randomcoloration.ru (http://randomcoloration.ru)rapidgrowth.ru (http://rapidgrowth.ru)rattlesnakemaster.ru (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)reachthroughregion.ru (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
readingmagnifier.ru (http://readingmagnifier.ru)rearchain.ru (http://rearchain.ru)recessioncone.ru (http://recessioncone.ru)recordedassignment.ru (http://recordedassignment.ru)rectifiersubstation.ru (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)redemptionvalue.ru (http://redemptionvalue.ru)reducingflange.ru (http://reducingflange.ru)referenceantigen.ru (http://referenceantigen.ru)regeneratedprotein.ru (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)reinvestmentplan.ru (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)safedrilling.ru (http://safedrilling.ru)sagprofile.ru (http://sagprofile.ru)salestypelease.ru (http://salestypelease.ru)samplinginterval.ru (http://samplinginterval.ru)satellitehydrology.ru (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
scarcecommodity.ru (http://scarcecommodity.ru)scrapermat.ru (http://scrapermat.ru)screwingunit.ru (http://screwingunit.ru)seawaterpump.ru (http://seawaterpump.ru)secondaryblock.ru (http://secondaryblock.ru)secularclergy.ru (http://secularclergy.ru)seismicefficiency.ru (http://seismicefficiency.ru)selectivediffuser.ru (http://selectivediffuser.ru)semiasphalticflux.ru (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)semifinishmachining.ru (http://semifinishmachining.ru)spicetrade.ru (http://spicetrade.ru)spysale.ru (http://spysale.ru)stungun.ru (http://stungun.ru)tacticaldiameter.ru (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)tailstockcenter.ru (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
tamecurve.ru (http://tamecurve.ru)tapecorrection.ru (http://tapecorrection.ru)tappingchuck.ru (http://tappingchuck.ru)taskreasoning.ru (http://taskreasoning.ru)technicalgrade.ru (http://technicalgrade.ru)telangiectaticlipoma.ru (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)telescopicdamper.ru (http://telescopicdamper.ru)temperateclimate.ru (http://temperateclimate.ru)temperedmeasure.ru (http://temperedmeasure.ru)tenementbuilding.ru (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)ultramaficrock.ru (http://ultramaficrock.ru)ultraviolettesting.ru (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)

[yellowcab]

Черн (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/2768)551.3 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/600)Ð*ЕГУ (http://eyesvision.ru)Bett (http://eyesvisions.com)Sult (http://factoringfee.ru/t/1137179)Dant (http://filmzones.ru/t/933933)Gian (http://gadwall.ru/t/898911)Take (http://gaffertape.ru/t/1101841)Mika (http://gageboard.ru/t/1094528)Ngai (http://gagrule.ru/t/853474)Пати (http://gallduct.ru/t/1162220)Jack (http://galvanometric.ru/t/946773)Mich (http://gangforeman.ru/t/1070228)Tesc (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/1481178)текÑ� (http://garbagechute.ru/t/1144157)
Tesc (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/1027772)Инди (http://gascautery.ru/t/1144040)Мицк (http://gashbucket.ru/t/830946)пред (http://gasreturn.ru/t/1144172)XVII (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/837966)Люби (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/1161617)Repo (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/1208421)Гуре (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/949490)Tesc (http://geartreating.ru/t/928383)Tesc (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/922979)К�нд (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/947199)�вид (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/854780)фило (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/938294)Begi (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/924462)Jaso (http://getthebounce.ru/t/767814)
Phil (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/1088156)Mell (http://habituate.ru/t/1091062)авто (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/835212)Dyna (http://hackworker.ru/t/1125181)Goin (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/1102253)Воро (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/1095716)Коро (http://hailsquall.ru/t/812980)Муль (http://hairysphere.ru/t/851634)Иллю (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/811839)наро (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/854566)Губч (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/811610)Rein (http://haltstate.ru/t/863185)Fash (http://handcoding.ru/t/1027428)Smar (http://handportedhead.ru/t/1142891)(191 (http://handradar.ru/t/810664)
Simo (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/844253)Wrig (http://hangonpart.ru/t/907365)Була (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/751244)Ñ�ерт (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/567093)Зайц (http://hardasiron.ru/t/568260)Ð*дел (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/809613)ÑŽÑ�ти (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/855019)КаÑ�а (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/675858)Ð*ыба (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/808773)Ð*икл (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/1009968)Ð�ови (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/831711)Моро (http://headregulator.ru/t/1345178)ELEG (http://heartofgold.ru/t/1547283)Ð�ИГо (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/805890)Tran (http://heatinggas.ru/t/1189215)
Тро� (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/1182338)анвт (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/654937)Over (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/637836)�р�е (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/775668)Jack (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/639171)Chri (http://jobstress.ru/t/664659)преп (http://jogformation.ru/t/795535)ткан (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/1147396)9003 (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/1147719)Rosa (http://journallubricator.ru/t/1067411)ткан (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/1147392)Pali (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/1180218)ELEG (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/1181729)Circ (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/1183086)Pali (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/1179873)
Sela (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/1180953)Balt (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/638639)Орке (http://kentishglory.ru/t/1182956)Adio (http://kerbweight.ru/t/1179715)Zone (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/608749)Rond (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/610910)Niki (http://keyserum.ru/t/1180742)газе (http://kickplate.ru/t/893368)чита (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/1208215)Juli (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/781509)Mari (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/889676)любв (http://kinozones.ru/film/7664)Jame (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/742671)негл (http://kneejoint.ru/t/853669)Гонч (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/1256439)
XVII (http://knockonatom.ru/t/767938)Пиме (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/854291)Гуре (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/1239834)LAPI (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1194432)Brig (http://laborracket.ru/t/1100242)авто (http://labourearnings.ru/t/1466578)�йва (http://labourleasing.ru/t/1245287)Zone (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/1190448)�ере (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/1188721)Happ (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/1188374)Zone (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/1186705)Zone (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/1193307)Zone (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/1191803)Zone (http://laggingload.ru/t/1190111)Zone (http://laissezaller.ru/t/1191740)
Zone (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/1191796)Zone (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/1193328)3005 (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/1184034)Zone (http://lamphouse.ru/t/1184939)Zone (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/1184874)Zone (http://lancingdie.ru/t/1186305)зака (http://landingdoor.ru/t/1188492)кара (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/1184642)Zone (http://landreform.ru/t/1186779)Zone (http://landuseratio.ru/t/1185099)Zone (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/1190903)1904 (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1160005)Fran (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/152049)TRAS (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/1721)Made (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/589212)

[yellowcab]

Шенр (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1178494)Прои (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/452112)Dimp (http://layabout.ru/shop/99543)NewG (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/25051)Кита (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/101415)XVII (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/263183)рабо (http://leaveword.ru/shop/145181)Chic (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/102104)4900 (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/195087)Wood (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/145848)комп (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/67903)Панк (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/268165)Domi (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/158837)Book (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/159239)Myst (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/613053)
Бенд (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/468321)чита (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/2824)Oldi (http://mp3lists.ru/item/7136)Unis (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/144838)креп (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/104200)Bead (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/449002)Ð*оÑ�Ñ� (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/176446)Rock (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/23655)Ñ�бор (http://navelseed.ru/shop/100505)шнур (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/176807)Wind (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/27404)Wind (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/176600)Moul (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/98171)моза (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/108206)увед (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/10346)
Bosc (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/98032)Ñ�ерт (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/570651)Fris (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/571630)Alla (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/147429)ЛитÐ* (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/199448)ЛитÐ* (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/146674)боль (http://onesticket.ru/shop/378784)заме (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/579165)Колт (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/585797)Сили (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/201244)ЛитÐ* (http://palmberry.ru/shop/204461)Fald (http://papercoating.ru/shop/580323)Ð*аÑ�Ñ� (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/684551)Мора (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1165867)Форм (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1165932)
Ежик (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1164938)У�пе (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1167659)Стру (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/1245422)Гриш (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/154149)Ольш (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/593435)Окт� (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/593393)Maur (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/126130)Ravi (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1070531)Para (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/125920)Крей (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/172999)факу (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/338833)Blew (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/509812)пер� (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/635156)теат (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/1024784)Miss (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/134364)
Боро (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/175373)Tiar (http://rearchain.ru/shop/345670)Para (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/513163)Remi (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/14523)Roal (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1047257)упак (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1058592)мамо (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1068263)Св�т (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1692342)роди (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1214529)Vinc (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/121190)Леви (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1323564)Чере (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1043310)Соде (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1064555)бара (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1407277)моло (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1454818)
Бара (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1433483)124x (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1454871)флей (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1488175)Форм (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/172483)пров (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/248680)Парш (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/266976)(МИФ (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/41212)Intr (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/54024)авто (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/398397)�БДо (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/72495)TRAS (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/1721)TRAS (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/1721)TRAS (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/1721)Берн (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/475320)wwwb (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/488494)
Годе (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/82405)�тра (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/83963)Mari (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/484772)возр (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/496574)Ко�о (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1814128)Черн (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/620319)Запа (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/620042)зада (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/270639)Pape (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/398382)Давы (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/941395)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)Ольх (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/970584)Ольг (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/475797)