bug out in the bush, why?

[wareagle69]

the question has been asked again( and if thats your philosophy then good on you) but why is it so many think they have to escape into the wild? can anyone give me a well thought out reasonable explaination as to why you would bug out into the bush? yes we all enjoy "getting away" into the bush and living out what evere fantasy you have about being there when of on an overnighter or even 30 day stay.
To me if natural disaster happens ,you are going to head to motel six(tom modet has left the light on for ya) or to the inlaws or buudy who owes ya.
why else bug out other than that ok a fire destroys your home are ya gonna go live in the bush now with the wife 3 kids dog, cat and goldfish?

can anyone give me a rational reason as to why that is your escape plan and not something more realistic. our goal here is to help educate and learn so if i am missing something please inform me, or maybe you can learn something here yourself and have a real backup plan
PS go read an absolute must read

[Ken]

This option is worst case scenario only.

Meteor strike. Super Volcano. Nuclear War. Major act of Bio-Terrorism. Your home and region would have to be inhabitable, and your entire regional infrastructure destroyed for it to make any sense at all.

..or you could be a fugitive from justice.

[wareagle69]

This option is worst case scenario only.

Meteor strike. Super Volcano. Nuclear War. Major act of Bio-Terrorism. Your home and region would have to be inhabitable, and your entire regional infrastructure destroyed for it to make any sense at all.

..or you could be a fugitive from justice.

ok actual probability of any of those happening?
even being a fugitve from justice, it is better to hide out in a large city than in the bush

[Sam]

This option is worst case scenario only.

Meteor strike. Super Volcano. Nuclear War. Major act of Bio-Terrorism. Your home and region would have to be inhabitable, and your entire regional infrastructure destroyed for it to make any sense at all.

..or you could be a fugitive from justice.

Or you watched Red Dawn, I mean the country could be invaded. I personally don't like the bug out plan, I would rather take my chances in whatever area I have been living in at the time.
-Sam

[Ken]

Probability? Quite slim, and the most likely are probably

Natural: Yellowstone and the Canary Islands

Man Made: Bio-Terrorism

Fugitive? Best option is to call me! Second best is leave the country.

[wareagle69]

Probability? Quite slim, and the most likely are probably

Natural: Yellowstone and the Canary Islands

Man Made: Bio-Terrorism

Fugitive? Best option is to call me! Second best is leave the country.

not to get off topic but your second option sucks- going to an area where you are unfamilair with the lasw and customs or cannot even work will get you noticed quick, go to an are where you are not known no family and keep a low profile, become green, ride your bike to work and don't stay out past 10pm keep your mouth shut and don't reoffend, then you stand a better chance

[Ken]

Or you watched Red Dawn, I mean the country could be invaded. I personally don't like the bug out plan, I would rather take my chances in whatever area I have been living in at the time.
-Sam

Sam, my guess is that the most likely invaders would be zombies or from outer space. :innocent: It's one thing to attack a country. But a nation like the U.S.? To occupy it?

[Ken]

not to get off topic but your second option sucks- going to an area where you are unfamilair with the lasw and customs or cannot even work will get you noticed quick, go to an are where you are not known no family and keep a low profile, become green, ride your bike to work and don't stay out past 10pm keep your mouth shut and don't reoffend, then you stand a better chance

Ten years ago, I would have agreed with you. Today, we live in an age of some incredible technology. Cameras everywhere. Digital face reognition is just coming into play. Wait 10 more years and see. Anonymity in the U.S. is a thing of the past.

How many foreign languages do you speak? Have you travelled? Ever hear of Whitey Bulger?

Many people have prepared for this eventuality already. Ever visited this site? http://www.ptclub.com/

[wareagle69]

ok you maybe correct, it was about 15 years ago when i was on the run, so things may have changed, but i still go with expereince, any how lets get back on the topic please i asked a serious question to which i would like some intelligent answers to nto that we are being invaded or zombies, but real thought out answers that might help a person new here or lurking, that may have some thought about this and for them to look at the reality of doing so.

[Ken]

ok you maybe correct, it was about 15 years ago when i was on the run, so things may have changed, but i still go with expereince, any how lets get back on the topic please i asked a serious question to which i would like some intelligent answers to nto that we are being invaded or zombies, but real thought out answers that might help a person new here or lurking, that may have some thought about this and for them to look at the reality of doing so.

Wareagle, I posted the Zombie suggestion in response to Sam's post because I believe that ANY possibility of a successful invasion/occupation in the foreseeable future is virtually zero. Thank God, we are STILL an armed society.

My original suggestions, Yellowstone, the Canary Islands, and Bio-Terrorism, are the most probable risks I envision, and even then I believe that it's far more probable that I'll die as a result of contracting salmonella from a popsicle.

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

the question has been asked again( and if thats your philosophy then good on you) but why is it so many think they have to escape into the wild? can anyone give me a well thought out reasonable explaination as to why you would bug out into the bush? yes we all enjoy "getting away" into the bush and living out what evere fantasy you have about being there when of on an overnighter or even 30 day stay.
To me if natural disaster happens ,you are going to head to motel six(tom modet has left the light on for ya) or to the inlaws or buudy who owes ya.
why else bug out other than that ok a fire destroys your home are ya gonna go live in the bush now with the wife 3 kids dog, cat and goldfish?

can anyone give me a rational reason as to why that is your escape plan and not something more realistic. our goal here is to help educate and learn so if i am missing something please inform me, or maybe you can learn something here yourself and have a real backup plan
PS go read an absolute must read


War Eagle there is nothing in my post that says it is my plan to leave home? Guess i could put my 330 gal. water tank on my horses back?

[Ken]

Guess i could put my 330 gal. water tank on my horses back?

Nah. I'll carry it for you, Cowboy!

[chiangmaimav]

I have 2 homes here and one is in the city and one in the bush, so I would go where it was safer. But if I were back in the US when the big disaster happened, unless I had no choice, I would stay in the city. Probably everyone would leave and the bush would be overcrowded.

[wareagle69]

War Eagle there is nothing in my post that says it is my plan to leave home? Guess i could put my 330 gal. water tank on my horses back?

actually yes you did. see post no.1 of your thread survival bag you asked what is in your bag if you had to escape into the wild, now maybe you are asking a general question not pertaining to yourself but just in general, but my thread is just a basic inquiry in general to any of those whom you might have been asking that question to i am asking the same.

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x86/arabmagic/AUT_0102.jpg

My backyard.

[crashdive123]

....and a darn fine yard it is.

[wareagle69]

we have the same basically although i would imagine you are more carolinian forest where i am boreal, nice paints, the bay looks just like my girl my gelding is more of a dark bay, but good horses just the same

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

I guess for me unlike most bugging out in the bush is staying home.

[gryffynklm]

To me if natural disaster happens ,you are going to head to motel six(tom modet has left the light on for ya) or to the inlaws or buudy who owes ya.
why else bug out other than that ok a fire destroys your home are ya gonna go live in the bush now with the wife 3 kids dog, cat and goldfish?

can anyone give me a rational reason as to why that is your escape plan and not something more realistic. our goal here is to help educate and learn so if i am missing something please inform me, or maybe you can learn something here yourself and have a real backup plan
PS go read an absolute must read

I totally agree however I would take my BOB anyway. I have copies of important documents. change of cloths ect. If we go to family or a hotel I have comfortable sleeping gear if there are not enough beds. There may not be enough time to pack.

My BOB is turning out to be my camping pack with additional pre packed pouches like an additional first aid kit, MRE pouch, things like that. They can be added to the pack quickly.

Wareagle, I respect your posts and am curious if you have some sort of a pack you would grab in the event you has to leave in a hurry?

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

I totally agree however I would take my BOB anyway. I have copies of important documents. change of cloths ect. If we go to family or a hotel I have comfortable sleeping gear if there are not enough beds. There may not be enough time to pack.

My BOB is turning out to be my camping pack with additional pre packed pouches like an additional first aid kit, MRE pouch, things like that. They can be added to the pack quickly.

Wareagle, I respect your posts and am curious if you have some sort of a pack you would grab in the event you has to leave in a hurry?

This is what I was after! A key thing I had not thought of! "Important Documents" Thank YOU!

[wareagle69]

well thanks for the compliment gryffnklm
i personally do not need to grab much- i have a kit in my car that i use to go into town every day, as most of you know i travel over an hour to get where i need to go, so in the event of an emergency i can be comfortable at least 3 days, also if stuck in town the wife has much family where i or she can stay at, also mrs eagle has the same kit in her crv to get here thru. now i do have a bug out vehicle that is loaded and ready to go all i need to do is hook up the trailer and we are gone to many different locations depending on the scenario, as ther is only two options for me living off of the trans canada hiway that i could go only east or west, depending which way is open, south is a big lake, north are many logging roads and thousands of kilometers of bush.

[Sam]

Wareagle, I posted the Zombie suggestion in response to Sam's post because I believe that ANY possibility of a successful invasion/occupation in the foreseeable future is virtually zero. Thank God, we are STILL an armed society.

My original suggestions, Yellowstone, the Canary Islands, and Bio-Terrorism, are the most probable risks I envision, and even then I believe that it's far more probable that I'll die as a result of contracting salmonella from a popsicle.

I posted the Red Dawn thing as a place that people get wild ideas from. I don't see us getting overrun by anything other than tourists.
As to Wareagle69, I don't see leaving a place I know as being smart. Starting from scratch after a life altering event like some of the things listed from time to time would be hard enough.
-Sam

[Sarge47]

Or you watched Red Dawn, I mean the country could be invaded. I personally don't like the bug out plan, I would rather take my chances in whatever area I have been living in at the time.
-SamRed Dawn was a silly movie trying to show a probable WWIII scenario based on WWII thinking. The US became "occupied France" from the 1940's. The film even ripped off parts of other movies, like "the Longest Day" with a radio broadcast: "John has a long mustache." I agree with Rick that if you're going to worry about an armed attack & occupation of this country, you might consider films like "Night of the Living Dead".:cool2:

[Sarge47]

1st, this is the "sticky" WE is referring to & yes, it is an "absolute must-read"!

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?t=355

2nd, I cannot say this too strongly, buy some maps! Get a State map of the sate you live in & locate any & all places you might need to get too; if you need to go out of state either locate maps for those states as well or secure a Road Atlas. Then buy the large book that contains all of the back-roads of every county in your state. Next buy Topo maps of the area that surrounds your home as well as the areas you think might be possible areas of re-location in the future.

3rd, study the area around your home for every possible potential trouble spot as well as anything you might be able to use as a temporary refuge. How close are any railroad tracks in proximity to your home? How often do trains pass by? What is the threat of hazardous waste being hauled by these trains as well as any potentially dangerous people that might be using them as a form of transportation. Remember, in a really bad scenario isolated rural homes can also become a target.

4th, is there any water sources close by? streams/brooks, ponds, lakes, rivers, or even the ocean?(also look into what type of fish might populate some of these.) What is the average rainfall in your area & how might you use that data?

5th, if your able to grow crops how can you maintain water regularly to your fields in case of a dry spell?

6th, what kind of wild game is known to populate your area?

These are just a few of the many things that you should possibly consider.:cool2:

[wareagle69]

not bad old man, not bad:clap:

[mcfd45]

Sam, my guess is that the most likely invaders would be zombies or from outer space. :innocent: It's one thing to attack a country. But a nation like the U.S.? To occupy it?

Complacency Kills. I wouldn't put this past our enemies. I do not expect an invasion anytime soon, but I don't put it past anybody. Perhaps the UN?

[Ken]

Complacency Kills. I wouldn't put this past our enemies. I do not expect an invasion anytime soon, but I don't put it past anybody. Perhaps the UN?

I want to believe that I'm realistic - about most things, anyway. That's why I don't believe an invasion from any foreign power is on the way now, or in the foreseeable future. But complacent? No way. Not about an invasion or anything else.


Thank God, we are STILL an armed society.

[Rick]

I was wondering if anyone has really given any thought as to where you would be if you survived post anything? Pick your poison. It doesn't matter. Some global change, some catastrophic upheaval. Anything that alters world population. Now project yourself five years down the road since you plan on being one of the few "lucky" ones to survive. Here are a few thoughts I have.

1. Virtually all batteries are gone. There are a few industrial types than can still be used but for the most part, batteries are done.

2. Gasoline has all gone bad.

3. Most rubber tires have dry rotted or are very close to rotting. Another few years and they will be for sure.

4. All medications have expired so most are no longer any good. Simple things we take for granted like Tylenol, Neosporin, even vitamins are a thing of the past.

5. You'll have no transportation unless you're lucky enough to have a horse...assuming any survived.

6. If people died then there's a good chance other flora and fauna went that way, too.

7. The only electricity you'll have is either your personal hydro-generator, solar or people powered (bicycle and generator type).

8. No way to restock ANYTHING. It's all on you. Can goods would still be viable assuming any were left in the short aftermath of whatever.

9. With a few exceptions and through your own imagination and creativity you will be living just as folks did in this country 300 years ago.

Five years is a pretty short time frame but think of all the disposable items we use today and the items with short life spans that we use. None of that would be available after five years.

Sort of makes you wonder why we even both, huh?

[gryffynklm]

Perhaps its a bit naive but before i took emergency preparation seriously, I thought that the group I would want to be around in a Post Situation, would be some of the primitive reenactors because of their research and practice of pre 20th century life skills. Hunting, fishing, food preparation, hide processing etc.

That has change to to a realization that community is going to be critical to long term survival. It doesn't matter how much I know or have prepared for if there isn't enough time to do the things I need to do for survival let alone to live and thrive. Look at the historical accounts of early pioneers. Many took that journey as part of a group or community.

In a post situation to the level rick suggests, survival is the first priority. For those who didn't succeed the survivors must do the body disposal. We can't rely on the government to clean up. If I'm doing disposal, I'm not doing the things I need for my family's survival. Community must be reestablished for people in general to survive long term.

There are exceptions who are members on this list Hopeak, and the others who have developed their skills to a point that they successfully manage a wilderness lifestyle. For me and my family in the level of preparation we are currently at we need community for a long term survival.

By the way Rick is this supposed to be a new thread?

[BK-72]

Bugging out into the wilderness? Well I joined this site to learn more IF that were needed (and to be better prepared if I get lost hiking), but as Ken pointed out, the scenario's where that would make me do that are slim.

I essentially have two bags in the house - one for "Motel 6" that contains extra clothes and toiletry items, some money, the copies of documents and bit of food and water. It's in a sports duffel bag.

(I also have a pack in the car that duplicates much of this, just minus the documents)

The second is my pack I use for hiking, something that this site has helped me with tremendously.

[BK-72]

Red Dawn was a silly movie trying to show a probable WWIII scenario based on WWII thinking. The US became "occupied France" from the 1940's. The film even ripped off parts of other movies, like "the Longest Day" with a radio broadcast: "John has a long mustache." I agree with Rick that if you're going to worry about an armed attack & occupation of this country, you might consider films like "Night of the Living Dead".:cool2:

The new Red Dawn movie might be interesting...

[Rick]

Post 29 and 30 were added to this post. I stupidly posted in another thread by mistake then lost the darn thing. I just "found" it and moved it along with Karl's response. Yes, Karl, it was meant to be in here.

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

Perhaps its a bit naive but before i took emergency preparation seriously, I thought that the group I would want to be around in a Post Situation, would be some of the primitive reenactors because of their research and practice of pre 20th century life skills. Hunting, fishing, food preparation, hide processing etc.

That has change to to a realization that community is going to be critical to long term survival. It doesn't matter how much I know or have prepared for if there isn't enough time to do the things I need to do for survival let alone to live and thrive. Look at the historical accounts of early pioneers. Many took that journey as part of a group or community.

In a post situation to the level rick suggests, survival is the first priority. For those who didn't succeed the survivors must do the body disposal. We can't rely on the government to clean up. If I'm doing disposal, I'm not doing the things I need for my family's survival. Community must be reestablished for people in general to survive long term.

There are exceptions who are members on this list Hopeak, and the others who have developed their skills to a point that they successfully manage a wilderness lifestyle. For me and my family in the level of preparation we are currently at we need community for a long term survival.

By the way Rick is this supposed to be a new thread?

I think (Rick) posted this on my behalf. Thanks Rick. Anyhow keep in mind new members haven't read every old post, I for one have benefited from old posts. I accidentally stumbled on crawfish on my property. It was unexpected and appreciated much in the same way I appreciate the help I get on here.

[BK-72]

I was wondering if anyone has really given any thought as to where you would be if you survived post anything? Pick your poison. It doesn't matter. Some global change, some catastrophic upheaval. Anything that alters world population. Now project yourself five years down the road since you plan on being one of the few "lucky" ones to survive. Here are a few thoughts I have.

1. Virtually all batteries are gone. There are a few industrial types than can still be used but for the most part, batteries are done.

2. Gasoline has all gone bad.

3. Most rubber tires have dry rotted or are very close to rotting. Another few years and they will be for sure.

4. All medications have expired so most are no longer any good. Simple things we take for granted like Tylenol, Neosporin, even vitamins are a thing of the past.

5. You'll have no transportation unless you're lucky enough to have a horse...assuming any survived.

6. If people died then there's a good chance other flora and fauna went that way, too.

7. The only electricity you'll have is either your personal hydro-generator, solar or people powered (bicycle and generator type).

8. No way to restock ANYTHING. It's all on you. Can goods would still be viable assuming any were left in the short aftermath of whatever.

9. With a few exceptions and through your own imagination and creativity you will be living just as folks did in this country 300 years ago.

Five years is a pretty short time frame but think of all the disposable items we use today and the items with short life spans that we use. None of that would be available after five years.

Sort of makes you wonder why we even both, huh?


It's something that I have thought of, but then I'm also been a avid reader of a number of sci-fi post-Armageddon books.

Seen that picture of the bird trying to swallow a frog, and the frog has the bird's throat gripped tight? The saying "never give up/surrender" below it? I imagine some folks will be like that.

[Rick]

I posted it for everyone to think about. Even those folks that live in the hinter lands of the north have to hit the big city once in a while to restock. Wild Woman paddles in, Hopeak drives the duece and half (only because he can make a parking spot if they are all taken).

The best we can hope for, IMHO, is to sustain ourselves in a short term situation. I don't know what time frame that is. A month? Six? A year? But if something really terrible were to happen then surviving the event would be questionable. There's no reason I should survive and you wouldn't. And being able to adjust to a life style of 300 years past is probably well beyond the capability of even those of us that are "prepared".

You might be able to kill a deer but can you deliver a calf? A baby? Can you plow a field while defending it? Crazy thoughts for sure.

[BK-72]

Yeah whatever will be that short term survival time frame is going to be key. Making it past that, and joining with others that have survived, and sharing what you know to re-build a new community as gryffynklm talked about is the only way (I think) long term survival will be reached.

[wareagle69]

yes i have put much thought into this, while mrs eagle does not want to survive i do, there was a show on the dicovery channel about this shows how the world would shut down without humans to run it, the scariest part was the meltdown of all the nuclear reactors, w/o electricity to run the cooling towers the would heat up and meltdown, i beleive that was within a year, other than that things went well with the recovery of earth, but now that does leave the survivors, i think the begining would be the worst of it, getting over being soft from the easy life would be an adjustment, but it would be one day at a time, very hard i am sure, but then look at mr proenke but he also had a supply plane flying in soooooo, points to ponder. "could i have made it back then" great song by the smokin armadillos but one question i ponder all the time, i still need about 5 more years to prepare and learn to be able to say truthfully that i could live in that primitive lifestyle

[Sarge47]

...you need to read these 2 books by the late Robert Heinlein: "Tunnel In The Sky" & "Farnham's Freehold". Both will make you think.:cool2:

[wareagle69]

:ban:think .....what....:noway: dude serioulsy whatcha thinking mon

[welderguy]

The only thing I could see forcing me to live in the bush would be a total disappearance of all other humans except my EX WIFE, and in that case I want to find the deepest darkest hole and....... hey wait a minute..... never mind problem resolved. I m staying home after all.

Seriously I see no real benefit of bugging to the bush, no matter what natural or man made disaster hits , I think I am safer within the walls of my home than in a tent, as I said before if the house was burnt down, or under water then I would have no choice.
But to willingly leave behind a home property, and belongings I worked so hard to get and keep so that in my absence some less than upstanding citizen can walk in and take what they want , I just cant do that.

[SARKY]

These are last resort senarios, but they have been reasoned out. Here is my situation, I live in the bay (SF) area. If we have a big quake, the bay area will be cut off due to overpasses falling down and landslides blocking the passes out of the bay. Once the supplies in the bay are exausted (probably 3 days or less) the vermin will start taking what they want. When it looks like it will be getting bad, we're out of here! Primary departure is up and over the hill that block auto escape. Secondary plan is to steal a boat (preferably sail) make our way out to the ocean and sail south to an area I have picked (state park) beach said boat and set up camp.

[Sourdough]

while mrs eagle does not want to survive i do, i still need about 5 more years to prepare and learn to be able to say truthfully that i could live in that primitive lifestyle

I am with Mrs. Eagle on this one. My life is hard enough, I could not take it much rougher. It was more fun when I was younger.......I look forward to a water system and septic this fall, after going 11 1/2 months with out a hot shower. I could live with the Outhouse & Honey'Bucket forever, even into my 80's.

[Sourdough]

I see "Pandemic" as the highest probability for catastrophic event. Followed by massive or total electric grid failure as second most likely event.

Anchorage, Alaska has ONLY one "Two-lane" road going south, it is carved out of shear cliff on one side, and shear drop to the ocean on the other side. With-in one hour of panic the road will be shut tight with accidents and gridlock, and vehicles running out of fuel and abandoned. There is only one other way out to the north, and it bottle necks down to two lanes to cross the Eagle River Bridge. There was a time I pondered how to deal with the hoards from Anchorage, AK. but I now see that 400,000 humans will be trapped.

[oneraindog]

ive seena lot of replies here and in cowboys thread about BOBs talking about bugging IN instead of out. while this is a most preferable situation many people might not have that option. it seems that a lot of people on this forum are already in rural situations or have access to one. what about those of us that dont?
living in seattle i am in a pretty deep urban environment and if things where really going south in the figurative sense then i would want to be going south in the literal sense. honestly i dont want to be around while a city rips itself apart because there is no electricity, the supermarkets have dried up and law enforcement is non-existent.
i dont have the luxury of sitting pretty on my ranch while all hell breaks lose and the city burns so my option is getting the heck out of dodge.

as for reasons to leave many have been listed and all are valid possibilities. one that hasnt been addressed is complete social collapse. at the risk of being pegged the conspiracy wing nut i gotta ask why hasnt anyone mentioned this possibility? am i the only one that is worried about the dire state of this nation financialy and politically?
i may be biting off a big chew here but im going to say it:
i dont think a collapse much like that of soviet russia is beyond the realm of possibility. ill just leave that there and see if anyone wants to tangle with that :)

there was also the mention of red dawn and foreign invasion and how that isnt really possible. but why are we assuming forgeign INVASION. why arnt we also worried about the government turning on us? is this so unlikely to everyone. i try not to lose sleep overit but fear of the federal government is one of my big motivations i have for hanging around these kinds of forums. i have no fear of an invading army. i do however think often about various reasons martial law may be imposed possible even using UN troops instead of our own military which is off fighting in various other theaters.
and these fears arnt based on wild imaginings. i think i have some credible reasons to assume these things as possibilities. again ill just leave t at that unless someone wants to examine the particulars.

natural disaster?.... sure go to moms.
bio-terrorism?.... lots of options that dont include the woods.

social collapse/coup/american government turned dictatorship?.....can i come stay on someones farm?

[Ken]

i dont think a collapse much like that of soviet russia is beyond the realm of possibility. ill just leave that there and see if anyone wants to tangle with that :)

Yep, it's possible. Highly unlikely, but possible. You have to remember that our forms of government are not at all similar. As for the people of each nation, well let's just say that people here are much less intimidated by the government to begin with. 200+ years of freedom generates some strong independent habits.



i have no fear of an invading army. i do however think often about various reasons martial law may be imposed possible even using UN troops instead of our own military which is off fighting in various other theaters.

UN troops here? I just don't buy it. Sorry.



social collapse/coup/american government turned dictatorship?.....can i come stay on someones farm?

I believe that the American spirit and our various levels of government make widespread collapse highly improbable. Dictatorship? Can you say A S S I N A T I O N?

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

Yep, it's possible. Highly unlikely, but possible. You have to remember that our forms of government are not at all similar. As for the people of each nation, well let's just say that people here are much less intimidated by the government to begin with. 200+ years of freedom generates some strong independent habits.



UN troops here? I just don't buy it. Sorry.



I believe that the American spirit and our various levels of government make widespread collapse highly improbable. Dictatorship? Can you say A S S I N A T I O N?


Agreed! We will be the last to fall!

[crashdive123]

Oneraindog - I think I understand what you are saying. I lived in the Seattle area (albeit on the other side of the sound) for about nine years. While living inside the city proper during civil unrest may not be the most comfortable feeling, I think that order would be restored in relatively short order. There are so many areas that are not far from the city, but in developed areas. My recollection of the area (it was the 80's when I lived there) is that the people are a hearty, self reliant bunch that would be able to handle themselves just fine.

[oneraindog]

hmm. as far as collapse goes i dont think it has to do with our respective forms of government. i think its more an economic threat. similarly i dont think it makes a diffference that we are on a capatalist system and soviet russia was communist.


the follwing is a an excerpt of a post i made in a different forum and just to save effort ill just copy/paste because it sums upthe ideas relating to this topic pretty well

""the factors i am most familiar with point in the direction of a collapse comparable to that of the soviet union. there are three key ingredients that go in to super power collapse and all three are being heated to a boiling point as we speak. these three things are:

1. a chronic shortfall in the production/acquisition of crude oil. which could also be read as an increasing problem of import/control of the supply.

2. a severe and worsening trade deficit.

3. ballooning foreign debt

special attention should be paid to the reasons behind the current economic crisis as this is a manifestation of the of the underlying decay. NOTE: the current american financial crisis is NOT due solely to banking malpractice. you can break the situation down in to smaller pieces which, from my understanding, will be the ultimate downfall of our system if not addressed properly. these are:

1) fractional reserve banking (leveraging)

2) fiat currency (inflation)

3) deficit spending (borrowing)

4) socialism (wealth redistribution, central planning, regulation)

5) the government belief that it can have all of these things and control the bubbles and malinvestments it creates

6) the Keynesian response to inevitable crashes

a) manipulating interest rates (see #1, #2, #3)

b) quantitative easing (see #1, #2)

c) government spending (see #3)

d) providing increased entitlements (see #3, #4)

we are fast approaching a point where the amount we produce is outweighed by what we consume and our massive debt can only be met with more borrowing and/or printing of increasingly worthless money. this trips a downward spiral where we can not escape the velocity of the interest on the loans and our money becomes devalued at a rate that production can not keep up with. this situation is untenable. it is an economic black hole and it leads ultimately to collapse. for more information look at zimbabwe and a host of other countries that have followed the exact same pattern.

and i wont even get in to the external threats. i think they speak for themselves. but it is my belief that the current system is, AT BEST, ill equipped to manage the protection of its people from enemies both foreign and domestic.

AT WORST we are being steered by those who would use social crisis to revamp the american way of life into a new world order where the free man is a thing of the past. there is still enough free will left in the american people that you cant just come right out and declare a dictatorship. you have a much easier time of it if you guide people to it by making them think its their own choice using fear and partisanship as your prods. for more information please see the rise of hitler and the use of dogs in herding ranch animals. ""



a good introduction to the reasoning behind this is a book called Reinventing Collapse: The Soviet Example and American Prospects by dmitri orlov. orlov is russian born and spent a lot of time during the collapse in russia witnessing its evolution and researching the contributing causes. i think there are more than a few worthy observations he makes.
highly recommended reading.

[Ken]

Nope. Don't see it happening.

[oneraindog]

Nope. Don't see it happening.

i totally respect that. so not to sound like im trying to antagonize or press it but if you feel like it id be curious to know what you think are the preventative factors?
i dont neccessairly want to argue. im always on the lookout for contradictory lines of reasoning. god knows id rather NOT think these events are on the horizon.
but fair warning: i do enjoy playing devils advocate

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

It is easier to see for us, the next generation. But there are many that see it and won't admit it. I said earlier the US would be the last to fall, doesn't mean I don't think the world is in serious trouble! Good post oneraindog!

[oneraindog]

It is easier to see for us, the next generation. But there are many that see it and won't admit it. I said earlier the US would be the last to fall, doesn't mean I don't think the world is in serious trouble! Good post oneraindog!

thansk cowboy.
i agree america is made of stern stuff. but we are talking about preparation here right? :)

[Sourdough]

One aspect of all this that is never talked about, is the assumption that city people will even be allowed into small towns. Most small towns can't even handle the traffic flow of escaping hoards. We don't look at the impact of massive inflows of humans. The town of Hope, AK. has "NO" public toilets, NO public water. and one 6 room hotel.

Some years ago there was an impromptu Bluegrass festival. It was a nightmare, with human waste everywhere. They tried to do the festival the next year, and they said OK post $50,000.-- or rent 50 port-a-poopers, Two water tankers, etc. It would be like Woodstock Rock Festival, if even 2,000 humans descended on Hope, AK. which has about 200 year around humans. We have no police, no medical, no stores, no gas stations.

I have not been to America in 10 years, but it seemed it was just big city after big city spaced out by small city. Was there not a study for Y2K and the city of Denver figured, with no accidents, it would take 8 days bumper to bumper to evacuate the city.

[Sourdough]

Oneraindog, I don't think you could escape Seattle by road if the SHTF. Now by boat you could get to the best survival location in America in my opinion. That would be South East Alaska.

[oneraindog]

Oneraindog, I don't think you could escape Seattle by road if the SHTF. Now by boat you could get to the best survival location in America in my opinion. That would be South East Alaska.

me and some friends have plotted possible out routes. there are a few back roads out of the south end of the city. there is also a sail boat option in which case we are coming to see you :)

[crashdive123]

For the sailing option - there are a whole lot of uninhabited islands in the Straigts of Juan de Fuca. Used to do quite a bit of sailing up there.

[Sourdough]

there is also a sail boat option in which case we are coming to see you :)

Bring a woman.........on second thought bring two.

[Rick]

@ Oneraindog - Your post was both excellent and well thought out. You offer up some very sound economic concerns. Left to their own devices, they would most probably play out much to what you have posted. However, there are many other factors at play that I think strengthen both our government and our economy.

1. A free press. I know there are many on here that don't believe our press is free but controlled by the government. However, if you examine the press's history you'll see a free press in action. Heavily controlled in its reporting during WWII, that changed in the 60's and we've seen unabashed and timely reports in each and every conflict since then.

We've seen the press bring down a President, a Vice President, two Speaker's of the House as well as many other politicians. Illinois' Blagojevich being one of the latest.

It works by informing the masses of trends and issues. We are seeing it in action right now with the current business cycle. More and more folks are curtailing spending and saving more because the press is keeping the economy in the spot light. I'm far more concerned about unethical and untrained bloggers spouting crap on the internet than I am over the true press.

2. The U.S. Dollar - Despite all the controversy, it is still the world's currency. Yes, it is fiat and the price can be arbitrarily set but so can and have precious metals. Any form of currency can be regulated and the value arbitrarily set. It doesn't matter if you are using rocks, bird feathers, spam or diamonds. Any or all of it can be regulated and the price fixed. The U.S. Government set the price on gold when it was outlawed as did the Hunt brothers when they attempted to manipulate the silver market. Only their greed stopped them.

3. U.S. Resilience - Probably because of our diversity and some other factors, we have to be the pluckiest bunch of folks on the planet. We don't put up with much BS and when the chips are down we do the job. I don't need to cite examples here. They abound. That is one of the simple strong arms that will keep this country going. Because we will it to and because we believe in each other. Period.

4. Religion - This country has very strong roots in religion and, believe in it or not, religion has, historically, been one of the cornerstones of governmental longevity.

I don't understand your position on "the Keynesian response to inevitable crashes". There is no such thing as "inevitable crashes". In fact, Keynesian response is one of activist restraint of aggregate demand combined with incomes policy designed to control inflation and therefore prevent a crash.

In any case, my point here is you can take any single piece of our country and site issues, policies and problems that doom us. It just isn't that simple. You have to look at the country as a whole. After all, that's what we are.

My head hurts.

[Rick]

@ Sarky - Change in plans. As it turned out, it wasn't a big earthquake at all. The Hilina Slump finally dropped off the south slope of the Kilauea volcano creating a tsunimi 1000 feet high. Your boat is now in Kansas and somewhat damaged. The good news is there are several used surf board shops in Kansas now.

[Rick]

That's a good point. It's one thing to defend your ranch against wannabe bad guys but it's quite another to try and stand your ground against a fire. That's not a high concern for me since I'm in an urban environment but in the city that should be a real concern.

[Rick]

Ooops. I meant I'm in a suburban environment. Unless you have a fire storm house after house isn't going up in flames. We have pretty wide lots where I live. In the city, especially apartments and condos, a fire would be a pretty bad thing engulfing a lot of homes at once.

[erunkiswldrnssurvival]

i have mostly lived in the country, the riots were someone elses concern,to me "bugging out" is something you do for your self.(like escaping Warsaw during WW2)
the time that you have to slip away unseen.
to bug out in the woods to me suggests the need for a plan that takes you away from your sense of being in danger.
to me "bugging out" puts me in the woods, once i am there, i feel safe.

[chiangmaimav]

This is a very interesting posting with many good points. many things are possible, but one that I am sure is not is the USA being occupied by UN troops. If you comprehend the situation involving UN and US, you will see the US will never allow the UN to have any military presence or governing responsibilities in America. And even if they did the UN could not do it. They have never successfully controlled anywhere, including third rate countries like Somalia, Rwanda, Cambodia, etc. And as for the govt. turning against the people or creating a dictatorship, I find this also to be fantastic. The govt. cannot even seem to be able to investigate actual terrorist groups without such an outcry about civil liberties and such. How could they manage to form a dictatorship? Besides, the big corporations, who have a great influence in the govt.,would never allow it. This is the same NWO theory that has been pushed by militia groups and such for over twenty years and noone will let it die. Actually I think it might be the world's oldest continuing conspiracy theory, but I don't know.

[Rick]

Now THAT was a good post! My mom was worried to the hilt about the approach of Y2K. I happened to be in IT at the time. She was stocking up on water and all sorts of things.

I told her it boils down to greed. No major corporation is going to allow their business to go belly up. No major utility will either. I'm really glad things went well with Y2K. I would have lost a lot of face with mom had it not. Anyway.....

Chia's right. There is too much money to be made in a capitalist society. None to be made in a dictatorship (except, of course, for the dictator).

He's right, too, about the UN. Sad....but right. And who picked out those blue helmets for crimey sakes?

[oneraindog]

@ Rick
i agree with most of what you say but take some issue with a few of your points


1. A free press.

well...i agree and discagree lets say. i think when the press is free it is more likely to handle business properly. but i think that is a closing window.
i always think of a statement made buy dan rather. in so many words he said that every administration since hes been in journalism, republican or democrat, has sought to limit and control the abilities of the free media and every administration has gotten better at doing so. maybe the press is free we could argue that all day and i could bring up the consolidation of ownership and blah blah blah but thats straight from the horses mouth man....its in governments best interest for the press to only say what big power wants them to say.




2. The U.S. Dollar - Despite all the controversy, it is still the world's currency. Yes, it is fiat and the price can be arbitrarily set but so can and have precious metals. Any form of currency can be regulated and the value arbitrarily set. It doesn't matter if you are using rocks, bird feathers, spam or diamonds. Any or all of it can be regulated and the price fixed. The U.S. Government set the price on gold when it was outlawed as did the Hunt brothers when they attempted to manipulate the silver market. Only their greed stopped them.

i cant agree with this. by definition fiat currency and fractional reserve banking = economic downfall. you can not manipulate false currency forever. you just cant do it. show me an economic system, based on fiat money that has stood the test of time.


I don't understand your position on "the Keynesian response to inevitable crashes". There is no such thing as "inevitable crashes". In fact, Keynesian response is one of activist restraint of aggregate demand combined with incomes policy designed to control inflation and therefore prevent a crash.

the way i understand it a keynes disagreed with the central premise of supply and demand. he argued that boom and bust was inevitable and that in cases of severe depressions government regulation could be utilized to boost and jump start the economy. this is in contradiction to the austrian school of thought started by alfred hyek who argued that no matter how altruistic and utilitarian keynesian policies by their definition required centralized planning and would inevitably lead to totalitarian abuses. keynes himself validated this concern. hyek also made the argument that connecting the study of economics to aggragates was a flase premise and that recessions where attached to micro-economics not macro. hayek also argued that what starts as temporary governmental fixes usually becomes permanent and expanding beauracracies that stifle the public sector. i think this has shown itself to be true more than any of keynes theory. but this could be because i am a biased Ron Paul supporter :)
in my defense ron paul has been predicting our current economic situation for almost 20 years and is predicting that it will get worse. when the guy that predicts a given outcome with astonishing clarity guesses its going to get worse im tempted to lean toward his argument.

[oneraindog]

@chiang and rick

i brought up the UN as a *maybe* scenario. i am not, repeat NOT a militia nut. regardless of what the pic in my profile may lead you to believe. i just like shooting guns :)
i do however worry about expanding bureaucracy and consolidation of power. i dont think its so far out to be worried about those things. and you cant tell me that there arnt powers at work who would love to see a central world banking system and a central world government. these things have been discussed in PUBLIC by many of the power elite so please lets not debate that.

[Rick]

i cant agree with this. by definition fiat currency and fractional reserve banking = economic downfall. you can not manipulate false currency forever. you just cant do it. show me an economic system, based on fiat money that has stood the test of time.

Can you show me a true currency? Can you show me an economic system that stood the test of time based on any type of currency? Every country on the planet operates with fiat currency. It's no more or less an intermediary that let's us avoid the barter system. You can plug in anything in place of fiat money and arbitrarily set the price for it.

If you turn to Commodity money, Representative money or even Credit money you wind up with the same ills as fiat. It's just more cumbersome. Does it really matter if you print more money or declare gold to be at XX per ounce? Or two bushels of wheat is no longer equal to a knife? No matter the type of money, the government controls the value. In this case, the governments (plural) control the value.

With regard to Keynes, the very very short version is he believed the economy could get stuck at an equilibrium with significant unemployment and some other factors and there was nothing in the economy that would automatically operate to help the economy recover. He believed that since the economy could not take care of itself it was the government's responsibility to pull the economy out this equilibrium.

I tend to agree with that philosophy to some degree. It depends, however, on what the government chooses to do to disengage the equilibrium. What I find fascinating is the failure to take into consideration the economy's cyclical leveling. The fact that Ron predicted a downturn 20 years ago doesn't impress me a smote. The fact is the economy will always down turn every 20 years or so. It's inevitable. The four handmaidens of Aggregate Expenditure; consumption, investment, government spending and net exports HAVE to cycle. They can neither continue upward or downward inevitably.

I think a decent analogy is personal finance. I spend money when I have it, conserve when I don't and/or incur debt when I don't have money. None of those can continue indefinitely. I cannot spend money forever nor can I conserve or incur debt forever. Personal finances are cyclical as are finances at the macro. It does not follow, however, that a long term cycle of any type automatically spells doom to a country's economy. Hard times for sure but it doesn't mean the country has a garage sale and closes it's doors. We've been through many DEPRESSIONS and many more recessions and this is just one more recession along the road.

[oneraindog]

You can plug in anything in place of fiat money and arbitrarily set the price for it.

no way man. you cant "arbitrarily" set the price on anything. you have to let a free market adjust itself to competing interest. show me someone arbitrarily deciding value and ill show you someone operating as a central planner in a socialist/communist/fascist bureaucracy. value is not decided out of thin air and it cant be written by some abstract authority. value can only be accurately and fairly decided by those who want it, basing said decision on how much of it there is


If you turn to Commodity money, Representative money or even Credit money you wind up with the same ills as fiat. It's just more cumbersome. Does it really matter if you print more money or declare gold to be at XX per ounce? Or two bushels of wheat is no longer equal to a knife? No matter the type of money, the government controls the value. In this case, the governments (plural) control the value.

youre mixing metaphors. bushels of wheat and knives and gold are REAL THINGS. they are things have worth because they are in demand. paper is not in demand. if all you are doing is rolling out sheets of paper, telling everyone "this roll of paper is worth such and such" but there isnt anything backing you up on that claim you are doomed.

you are right in the sense that we all agree so much paper can get so much "X" and that might be a viable economy if thats where it ended BUT we keep printing paper and then multiplying any given batch of paper with interest rates. its called fractional reserve banking.
this is the simplified breakdown:
bank A (in this case the federal reserve) loans 10 banks 100 dollars each.
now ideally those ten banks would only be able to loan out 100 dollars because thats all they have in the vault. instead they are each enabled to loan 10 other banks 100 dollars and so on down an increasing line of banks. you have now turned 1000 dollars into god knows how much. where does the money after the original 1000 come from? IT DOESNT EXIST. its a figment of your imagination and all it gets you is inflation. its a pyramid scheme. and what happens when the giant bubbles engendered by this sheme pop? the government prints 700 billion dollars to give to the banks.
if you think thats functional...well...i cant argue with you :)



The fact that Ron predicted a downturn 20 years ago doesn't impress me a smote. The fact is the economy will always down turn every 20 years or so. It's inevitable. The four handmaidens of Aggregate Expenditure; consumption, investment, government spending and net exports HAVE to cycle. They can neither continue upward or downward inevitably.

a natural business cycle is one thing. a business cycle that spirals out of control is another. the idea is that we are not on a natural rhythm but rather a sinking ship. instead of our cycles coming back to square one and reseting they drop a little bit lower each time and eventually it will hit rock bottom.

[Rick]

I wish that were true but the sad fact is the market does not entirely drive price. For fiat money query the Bank for International Settlements. While they do not set the price of fiat directly, they do set goals and then set policies designed to attain those goals. Gold price is set by the London Gold Fixing. Diamonds by De Beers, although new discoveries in Canada, Australia and Russia are changing that from what I read. Grains are controlled by farm policy through government bought reserves, acreage set aside programs and direct subsidies such as with dairy. So it's all relative. While there are market driven influences and they can be substantial at times, the real price of any item is an arbitrarily set price. In that regard, fiat is no different than wheat. So the metaphor is truly valid. Only a barter system on the micro level would be driven by supply and demand but, it's an awkward system that does not lend itself well to large commodities or distant commerce. That's why precious metals and fiat monies are used.

I don't disagree with your banking example. It's a valid concern. As I said, you can not spend money or incur debt on an ongoing basis. I also said I agree with Keynes to some extend but my concerns are what the government does with the money to disengage the equilibrium. No argument at all. Public works programs are one thing, handing out money to solvent banks that do nothing with it a tad bizarre in my way of thinking. Handing out money to insolvent banks that don't know how to handle it (they are insolvent after all) is even worse. AIG will long live as a classic example of what NOT to do.

I guess the only real disagreement (if you want to call it that) is in the business cycle. My view may be a bit myopic but I still don't see us on a sinking ship. I still see this as a normal, although more drastic, adjustment in the cycle. The '80-82 recession set the stage for record profits to be made throughout the 90s and into the early 2000s. Let's face it, life was pretty good whether you lived on a cash basis or debt basis. But the piper has to be paid eventually and he finally knocked on the door a couple of years ago. I've posted this before but I'll do so again for the new folks.

Most folks think we have only be through the 1930's depression. Not so. We've been through several.

1807
1837
1873
1893
1929-1939

The list of recessions we have been through is staggering. I won't list them here, just provide a resource for anyone interested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions

My whole point to all of this is two fold.

1. The country is not doomed to disintegration because we are in a down cycle. You can read through my posts over the last year or so. I've been pretty consistent in telling folks we will recover. And we will. History shows us that and we've been in fiscal dire straights a lot in this country. Yes, we have problems financially. Yes, we need to clean up our act. Yes, we need to pay down the national debt (if you're willing to make the sacrifice on public services or increased taxes. Because that money has to come from somewhere). But we will persevere.

2. Our country is made up of a lot more than just the economy. And because there are many other layers that need to be considered (I listed some above) then we have to temper our outlook on just the economy to include ALL of the variables that impact it in a direct manner. If you peer through only one hole in the fence you will only see one view.

Back at Oneraindog. Don't think for a moment I'm arguing with you. I'm not. But I do love the debate. You are well versed in finance and this discourse is a huge benefit to me because I WANT to see other views from folks who understand what they are talking about. Not to jab at anyone but all too often folks make financial decisions or make financial statements based on emotion rather than fact. So it's important for the members on here, IMHO, to see all sides of the equation so they can make an informed decision. After all, it's just as much a part of survival today as any other aspect of our lives. In some cases, more.

For that, I thank you!

[doren]

I have layered options for "bugging out". My first course is staying home if possible. I do live in the city, but I live in the northern corner of the city limits. Plus all my friends know my house is the place they need to get to if bad things happen.

If I must leave the house, then less than a mile from my home is a series of ridges that are empty except for cell phone towers an one radio station. The areas provide a view of the city, plenty of small game, and the woods are dense enough you should be hidden well enough from other problems.

My last choice are the Appalachian mountains. It's so secluded in certain areas horses cannot go.

Now if Oak Ridge labs went up. I wouldn't even see it happen. I live that close to Oak Ridge.

[oneraindog]

maybe i am getting confused by your use of the word arbitrary. arbitrary means a definition made based solely on the will and desire of the decision maker. this is what is happening in a socialist/communist/fascist economy. i dont think that is what is happening in the examples you have put forth.
i would need to look more into the bank for international settlements. cant say im familiar with that operation. as for groups like de beers and london gold the value of their commodties IS being determined by the supply NOT by the will of the owners of those corporations. surely you are aware that the way that diamond dealers manipulate the cost of the gems is to...wait for it...CONTROL THE SUPPLY. you support my premise with your example :)

and im really glad you brought up farm subsidies because that is a PERFECT example of what i am talking about. through various subsidies, regulations and restrictions the common american farmer is liitle more than endentured servant. you see this most pronounced in corn and soy bean farming. on one end the government is subsidized these farmers and keeping their farms afloat and on the other they are manipulating the supply by buying up excesses or letting loose market gluts depending on where the price of soy and corn are and where they want it to be. this creates an inescapable situation for the farmer who is caught in the middle. couple that with laws restricting farmers to GMO seeds and...well i could go on. anyway the bottom line is, once again, SUPPLY. the government is not pointing to a pile of corn and ARBITRARILY saying "its worht this much". it must first manipulate the SUPPLY. this is how government regulations control and stifle the free market but they must none-the-less work within the market itself to obtain their ends. that is, until the day comes when the economy is in such a state that broader socialist regulations must be created and they can finally do away with the free market all together.

when it comes to the economy my position is that our fiat money coupled with fractional reserve banking removes the supply/demand paradigm and that such an effort is inherently self destructive leading either to totalitarianism or economic collapse. maybe both

granted we may be arguing semantics now. i think we do mostly agree but just see different outcomes.

[oneraindog]

i would also like to make the disclaimer that i am not necessarily "well versed". i am just very curious about these things. an armchair economist if you will :)
but thanks. i do enjoy a good debate.

[Rick]

We say the same thing, actually. I think it is semantics. I see controlling supply to set price as "arbitrary". Not letting a free market do it is setting the price, to me. If De Beers, for example wishes diamonds to price at $1000 a carat then they withhold supply until the price increases to that amount. That's what I mean by arbitrarily setting the price. Crude prices work the same way. The OPEC states increase or decrease supply to set some price they've agreed to. There really is no rhyme or reason why that price has to be set at X. They just want it there for their own reasons. So, yeah, supply and demand drives the price but it's being manipulated on the back end. The fed does exactly the same thing with money. Print more the price goes down. Print less and the price goes up. They directly control the price of the dollar by how much they print. Part of the overall BIS planning I referred to.

There really isn't very much you can point to that isn't in the same ball park. The iPhone cost a ton when it first came out. Was that to cover R&D costs? Of course not. It was to capture sales from those folks that just have to have the newest technology available no matter the cost. Then there is a price drop. Why? Not because of supply and demand. Not because they improved their manufacturing process and dropped cost. It's marketing. Designed to capture those buyers that want the latest gizmo but aren't willing to pay the top dollar for it. Then low and behold another price drop. Why? Because they want to capture the rest of us cheapskates. In Marketing parlance it's called Market-Skimming Pricing. Demand drives the pricing index for that but it has nothing to do with Supply.

I don't have any particular likes or dislikes for the system. It's been that way for well before I hatched; to one extent or another.

You (not you personally) can call it anything you wish. But if the price is being manipulated outside the realm of true supply and demand then the price is being set as some arbitrary (preconceived, predetermined, agreed upon) price structure that has little to do with true supply and demand.

The best example of true supply and demand I can come up with at the current time is ammunition sales. I do believe that's a supply issue because everyone is hoarding it.

We really are sheeple and have been for a very long time.

[lanahi]

This is a very interesting posting with many good points. many things are possible, but one that I am sure is not is the USA being occupied by UN troops. If you comprehend the situation involving UN and US, you will see the US will never allow the UN to have any military presence or governing responsibilities in America. And even if they did the UN could not do it. They have never successfully controlled anywhere, including third rate countries like Somalia, Rwanda, Cambodia, etc. And as for the govt. turning against the people or creating a dictatorship, I find this also to be fantastic. The govt. cannot even seem to be able to investigate actual terrorist groups without such an outcry about civil liberties and such. How could they manage to form a dictatorship? Besides, the big corporations, who have a great influence in the govt.,would never allow it. This is the same NWO theory that has been pushed by militia groups and such for over twenty years and noone will let it die. Actually I think it might be the world's oldest continuing conspiracy theory, but I don't know.

Well, the government is starting to consider conservatives as possible "terrorists", and the Patriot Acts guarantee that "terrorists" can be picked up and rot in jail without a trial on only someone's "suspicion" of terrorism. Does this sound like the government turning against the people or creating a dictatorship is so fantastic? We have a bunch of paranoids in office who would like to get rid of detractors...what better way than to label them "terrorists"?

I would only consider bugging out if I thought someone like that would be knocking on my door. But, in a city, no way would I stay if I could get out. It's not good odds of survival in that case either way, but at least if you leave you have better chances.

[Rick]

Just out of curiosity, how many folks do you know that have been picked up on suspicion of being a terrorist and are currently in jail on that charge?

Just out of curiosity, does ANYONE on the forum know ANYONE that has been picked up on suspicion of being a terrorist and is currently in jail on that charge?

I'll be shocked if we get one affirmative answer. The fact is the Patriot Act targets ALIENS, as part of the immigration section. The immigration provisions allow for the indefinite detention of any alien whom the Attorney General believes may cause a terrorist act. (Title IV, Subtitle B, Sec. 412.)

There are lots of directives and have been lots of directives passed. You should take the time to read through all of the Presidential Directives and Executive Orders that President Kennedy enacted. It makes the Patriot Act look like child's play. But little came of them, most have been superseded just as the Patriot Act will in due time. It's little more than knee jerk reaction to perceived threats. The threats could be real for all I know. But that's a far cry from a dictatorship. Remember, the initial Patriot Act was passed in October, 2001 just over a month after 911. Even then, the act had a four year sunset date and had to be re-issued in 2006.


Does this sound like the government turning against the people or creating a dictatorship is so fantastic?

Yes, actually, it does. At least to me. It's one thing to have an opinion on a subject. It's another thing to have an informed opinion on a subject. I am not a member of the intelligence community so I can not make an informed decision as to whether the tenants of the Patriot Act were all necessary or not. But I do NOT believe that the President of the United States, the Vice President of the United States (as leader of the Senate), 100 members of the Senate and 435 members of the House of Representatives are determined to make the U.S. a dictatorship. The logistics of keeping that secret are a little much for me to swallow.

[oneraindog]

it doesnt have to be a plot involving 100s of people. it only takes a small number to influence the choices of many. this is a well studied sociological fact. it is easier for large numbers to be influenced than small groups.

i want to address this more when i have time. i sense round 2 of me vs. rick coming up :)

[oneraindog]

...Just out of curiosity, how many folks do you know that have been picked up on suspicion of being a terrorist...

Murat_Kurnaz

Khalid Awan
Maher Arar
Armen Keteyian

oh wait those are all canadians.

here we go:

Brandon Mayfield
Ashton Lundeby
Steven Kurtz
David Passaro
Ahfaz Khan
Jose Padilla
John McLean
Steven Hatfill
Kenneth Berry

and just to round it out...

vegas strip clubs:
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2003/nov/04/patriot-act-aided-feds-in-probe/

students in oakland:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/secret_service_questions_students.htm

and those were just names i came across or dug up in my bookmarks while i was looking for another name i actually couldnt find. there are more names i assure you.

and no i dont think any of those americans are still in jail(some of the canadians are) save Ashton Lundeby and whether his case is directly connected to patriot act oversight is debateable. but still...

does it matter if any of them are still in jail or if they were only locked up for one day?
are you going to tell me rick that you subscribe to the belief that "if you arnt doing anything wrong you dont have anything to worry about" ?

i think lanahis original, broader point was that the patriot act was an errosion of the constitution and an example of how a free society can move another step closer towards state rule.
i think the military commisions act is an another step in that direction seeing as it renders the bill of rights non-applicable.
and not to dig up the dead horse of bush bashing because i dont think it is a partisan isssue at all but that whole wire-tapping business....yeah that doesn make me very comfortable either.

it doesnt take a huge cabal to foment political sabotage. you just need some good old fashioned bought and paid for politicians. and i think we all can agree that many of them are just that.

rick have you read any naomi wolf?

[Ken]

Yeah, they've misused the law. I've seen Drugs + Guns = Terrorist Activity in a few warrant affidavits.

[Rick]

I try not read. My narrow views might become tainted.

Your looking through one knot hole and trying to paint the world. Those of us that have been lucky enough to hang on for many years have seen all of this play out before. The Patriot Act is just one more set of rules enacted because the U.S. was attacked. It takes a lot to get me upset (I am, after all, a sheeple). You just have to think of this country as a pendulum. It swings left for a while, then when people get fed up it starts to swing the other way. Then when people get fed up, it starts to swing the other way again.


does it matter if any of them are still in jail or if they were only locked up for one day?

Well, yeah. That WAS her point. "rot in jail without a trial on only someone's "suspicion" of terrorism."


are you going to tell me rick that you subscribe to the belief that "if you arnt doing anything wrong you dont have anything to worry about" ?

Uh, yeah. It's served me pretty well for over 50 years. The very minute it stops working I'll call Ken then you.

[Ken]

Your looking through one knot hole and trying to paint the world.

Like this? :art:

[Rick]

That's a knot, knothead. Here's a knot HOLE.

http://grandpacliff.com/Trees/Img-Trees/knothole.jpg

[Ken]

Ahhhh, yes. But your's give a clear view, does it knot?

[crashdive123]

That's a knot, knothead. Here's a knot HOLE.

http://grandpacliff.com/Trees/Img-Trees/knothole.jpg

That's knot a hole.....

see Ken's picture in post 87.

That's a hole!

[Rick]

I'm afraid to go look.

[Ken]

That's knot a hole.....

see Ken's picture in post 87.


That's a hole!

Allow me.........

[Rick]

Just another well made cat hole.

[crashdive123]

That's one large cat hole - must've been a big......ummmmm......trowel.

[Rick]

or a big cat.

[oneraindog]

im not painting anything. im seeing patterns. patterns that have played out before. you see a pendulum swing. once again we do agree. only i see the pendulum swing from the rise of nazi germany to post-constitution america. you seem to only see it swing from the carter administration to G.W.


Well, yeah. That WAS her point. "rot in jail without a trial on only someone's "suspicion" of terrorism."

and thats exactly what happened to all the people i listed. also remember all those chumps down in gitmo? yeah none of them formaly charged.
but you think its ok because theyve been let go? that doesnt make sense to me. see they wouldnt have been let go (the gitmos nor the americans listed) if it were not for public outcry. if we all took your example they WOULD still be rotting in jail because well...if they hadnt done anything wrong they wouldnt be there.




The very minute it stops working I'll call Ken then you.

all those americans i listed would disagree
along with a good many american citizens during WWII
and 6 million jews
and 6 million polish
oh and those commie pinkos that mcarthy fingered


waiting for your call rick:phone:

[crashdive123]

While there are many parts of the Patriot Act that I disagree with, and believe will eventually be changed, I don't see it as a dire state of affairs. As far as your concerns over the detainees at Gitmo - Most (can't say if it was all) were picked up on the battlefield or in terrorist training camps. For those that were picked up and not on the battlefield it is a tough situation. Their own countries will not accept them. The group of Chinese Muslims (not even gonna try and spell it) have been "ready for release" for quite some time, but nobody will allow them into their countries. As to those that were picked up on the battlefield - typically those in combat captured during a conflict are not released until the conflict is over. Harsh? I don't think so. The alternative is to follow the Geneva Conventions (they have no Geneva Convention rights BTW). That would be to execute them on the battlefield since they are engaged in combat operations and not in uniform.

[oneraindog]

valid points.
the mistake i think is to try and break it down in to an argument over gitmo here and the patriot act over there and so on. specializing the argument i think is detrimental.
but lets just say, for the sake of argument that the patriot act is all that is worth discussing then we are still in the same spot. assuming that we are safe as long as we dont do anything wrong is asking for the wrong end of the stick. if for no other reason but because we are giving consolidated power the ability to decide what is wrong and what constitutes an act of wrong doing.

i for one dont understand the notion that the way to fight terrorism is to start dismantling the things that have made this country great and worth fighting for. what are soldiers defending if we pass ever increasing amounts of legislation that continue to marginalize true freedoms

[crashdive123]

I'm not disagreeing with your points on the patriot act. I just don't see it in as dire a fashion as you do, and believe it will be corrected. I only brought Gitmo into my response because you did. As to your other examples - Senator McCarthy was more right than wrong, although the campaign to vilify him has been very successful.

[oneraindog]

I'm not disagreeing with your points on the patriot act. I just don't see it in as dire a fashion as you do, and believe it will be corrected. I only brought Gitmo into my response because you did

fair enough.
i brought it up just as another example of what i see as a slippery slope.

as for mccarthy. so everyone that was brought befor the hearings was a communist?

and the jews?
the polish?
japanese americans?

ill phrase my bigger point another way.
im not saying our current direction WILL lead to some totalitarian oligarchy im saying im afraid that it will because it falls along the lines of similar patterns in the past that have. im not making any certain predictions im saying its foolish not to be vigilant, perhaps even in some cases a bit paranoid, or to think that big government will keep your interest in mind if left unchecked.

[Rick]

The public outcry is the very thing that keeps it from becoming a dire thing. Of course there is public outcry as there should be. That's my point. There has always been public outcry and these goofy laws/edicts/EOs get moved to the side, renounced or superseded. I'm not saying it's okay. I'm just saying my panties are not in a twist because I know, in time, this too will change.

[oneraindog]

The public outcry is the very thing that keeps it from becoming a dire thing. Of course there is public outcry as there should be. That's my point. There has always been public outcry and these goofy laws/edicts/EOs get moved to the side, renounced or superseded. I'm not saying it's okay. I'm just saying my panties are not in a twist because I know, in time, this too will change.

right. so in the mean time ill keep trying to get people to be afraid of the government and learning how to live in the woods ;)

[oneraindog]

i mean....just in case

[Rick]

I'll keep looking and see if I can find ANYTHING that justifies your position.

http://www.realestate.co.nz/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/head-in-the-sand.jpg

I'm not seeing anything down here, yet.

[Ken]

Is it that time yet? http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-gen164.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

[Rick]

Back off. I'm still looking. Anyone have a glass of water?

[Ken]

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-signs090.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org) :eek:

[oneraindog]

all i can say is im honored to be the butt of your joke rick. i finally feel like im part of this community

[crashdive123]

fair enough.
i brought it up just as another example of what i see as a slippery slope.

as for mccarthy. so everyone that was brought befor the hearings was a communist?

and the jews?
the polish?
japanese americans?

ill phrase my bigger point another way.
im not saying our current direction WILL lead to some totalitarian oligarchy im saying im afraid that it will because it falls along the lines of similar patterns in the past that have. im not making any certain predictions im saying its foolish not to be vigilant, perhaps even in some cases a bit paranoid, or to think that big government will keep your interest in mind if left unchecked.

I understand your concerns. Let me address
and the jews?
the polish? While there were many events that led to the horrific things that took place, I just don't see that happening here.
japanese americans? Of course what took place with American citizens was wrong, and is universally recognized as such now. Now on to McCarthy.
as for mccarthy. so everyone that was brought befor the hearings was a communist? Of course not. Just as everybody that is questioned in the course of a murder investigation is not guilty. There is however, a great deal of evidence that shows the presence of communist spies was much more widespread than many would like to acknowledge. The sworn testimony of folks like Whittaker Chambers, Elizabeth Bentley and Louis Budeny cannot be discounted. Decrypted Soviet cables to their agents in the United States that had been decrypted showed links to hundreds of members of the Communist Party of the United States that were acting as spies. These tapes were classifed under the Verona Project (finally declassified in 1995).

[Rick]

Actually, I was the butt of the joke. That was supposed to be me in the sand.

Okay...look...here's a piece of paper and a pencil. See (drawing outline badly) this is me....

[oneraindog]

@crash. i cant argue the maccarthy thing too much because im not privy to all the info you are. i would have to research it more. honestly it wouldnt be the first time ive fallen victim to propaganda.
but what really confuses me is that here i am saying im worried about the patterns of abused power happening in this country and i want to make a public outcry and you and rick are saying i shouldnt be worried because public outcry is the very thing that keeps power in check

???


@ rick. it was a nice butt in any case

[crashdive123]

I'm not saying that you shouldn't worry about it. I'm saying that with access to information from such a wide array of sources that we can all keep ourselves aware. We have the power to prevent abuses. I worry about things all of the time. When I do, I do what I can to change those things that I believe need changing.

While you can probably find a lot about McCarthy and the real threat of Soviet spies on the net, a good book (if you're interested) is Decoding Soviet Espionage in America by John Earl Haynes and Harvey Klehr.

[oneraindog]

While you can probably find a lot about McCarthy and the real threat of Soviet spies on the net, a good book (if you're interested) is Decoding Soviet Espionage in America by John Earl Haynes and Harvey Klehr.

thanks ill put it on my list. right behind "mask of the illuminati" and "rise of the freemasons"
just kidding.

[wareagle69]

and when shtf they wil be just fine while all of us civilized educated spoiled folks will most likely fold under the pressure

[Rick]

Well, all this talk of fish has made me hungry.

[Ken]

Well, all this talk of fish has made me hungry.

You KNOW that it takes little effort to get me talking about food.........

Lunch today was at a local neighborhood restaurant and bar, M&C's, in New Bedford, MA. New Bedford is THE premier fishing port in the nation. (Anyone remember the infamous "Big Dan's" case? Well this place is across the street from where Big Dan's was.)

Got a bowl of chowder and their seafood platter. OMG! :innocent: There musta' been 2 lbs. of fish on the plate. Cod, clams, scallops, everything else........ The owner/chef trained in Europe. He's a magician with food...........

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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habeascorpus.ru (http://habeascorpus.ru)habituate.ru (http://habituate.ru)hackedbolt.ru (http://hackedbolt.ru)hackworker.ru (http://hackworker.ru)hadronicannihilation.ru (http://hadronicannihilation.ru)haemagglutinin.ru (http://haemagglutinin.ru)hailsquall.ru (http://hailsquall.ru)hairysphere.ru (http://hairysphere.ru)halforderfringe.ru (http://halforderfringe.ru)halfsiblings.ru (http://halfsiblings.ru)hallofresidence.ru (http://hallofresidence.ru)haltstate.ru (http://haltstate.ru)handcoding.ru (http://handcoding.ru)handportedhead.ru (http://handportedhead.ru)handradar.ru (http://handradar.ru)
handsfreetelephone.ru (http://handsfreetelephone.ru)hangonpart.ru (http://hangonpart.ru)haphazardwinding.ru (http://haphazardwinding.ru)hardalloyteeth.ru (http://hardalloyteeth.ru)hardasiron.ru (http://hardasiron.ru)hardenedconcrete.ru (http://hardenedconcrete.ru)harmonicinteraction.ru (http://harmonicinteraction.ru)hartlaubgoose.ru (http://hartlaubgoose.ru)hatchholddown.ru (http://hatchholddown.ru)haveafinetime.ru (http://haveafinetime.ru)hazardousatmosphere.ru (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru)headregulator.ru (http://headregulator.ru)heartofgold.ru (http://heartofgold.ru)heatageingresistance.ru (http://heatageingresistance.ru)heatinggas.ru (http://heatinggas.ru)
heavydutymetalcutting.ru (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)jacketedwall.ru (http://jacketedwall.ru)japanesecedar.ru (http://japanesecedar.ru)jibtypecrane.ru (http://jibtypecrane.ru)jobabandonment.ru (http://jobabandonment.ru)jobstress.ru (http://jobstress.ru)jogformation.ru (http://jogformation.ru)jointcapsule.ru (http://jointcapsule.ru)jointsealingmaterial.ru (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)journallubricator.ru (http://journallubricator.ru)juicecatcher.ru (http://juicecatcher.ru)junctionofchannels.ru (http://junctionofchannels.ru)justiciablehomicide.ru (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)juxtapositiontwin.ru (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)kaposidisease.ru (http://kaposidisease.ru)
keepagoodoffing.ru (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)keepsmthinhand.ru (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)kentishglory.ru (http://kentishglory.ru)kerbweight.ru (http://kerbweight.ru)kerrrotation.ru (http://kerrrotation.ru)keymanassurance.ru (http://keymanassurance.ru)keyserum.ru (http://keyserum.ru)kickplate.ru (http://kickplate.ru)killthefattedcalf.ru (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)kilowattsecond.ru (http://kilowattsecond.ru)kingweakfish.ru (http://kingweakfish.ru)kinozones.ru (http://kinozones.ru)kleinbottle.ru (http://kleinbottle.ru)kneejoint.ru (http://kneejoint.ru)knifesethouse.ru (http://knifesethouse.ru)
knockonatom.ru (http://knockonatom.ru)knowledgestate.ru (http://knowledgestate.ru)kondoferromagnet.ru (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)labeledgraph.ru (http://labeledgraph.ru)laborracket.ru (http://laborracket.ru)labourearnings.ru (http://labourearnings.ru)labourleasing.ru (http://labourleasing.ru)laburnumtree.ru (http://laburnumtree.ru)lacingcourse.ru (http://lacingcourse.ru)lacrimalpoint.ru (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)lactogenicfactor.ru (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)lacunarycoefficient.ru (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)ladletreatediron.ru (http://ladletreatediron.ru)laggingload.ru (http://laggingload.ru)laissezaller.ru (http://laissezaller.ru)
lambdatransition.ru (http://lambdatransition.ru)laminatedmaterial.ru (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)lammasshoot.ru (http://lammasshoot.ru)lamphouse.ru (http://lamphouse.ru)lancecorporal.ru (http://lancecorporal.ru)lancingdie.ru (http://lancingdie.ru)landingdoor.ru (http://landingdoor.ru)landmarksensor.ru (http://landmarksensor.ru)landreform.ru (http://landreform.ru)landuseratio.ru (http://landuseratio.ru)languagelaboratory.ru (http://languagelaboratory.ru)largeheart.ru (http://largeheart.ru)lasercalibration.ru (http://lasercalibration.ru)laserlens.ru (http://laserlens.ru)laserpulse.ru (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

laterevent.ru (http://laterevent.ru)latrinesergeant.ru (http://latrinesergeant.ru)layabout.ru (http://layabout.ru)leadcoating.ru (http://leadcoating.ru)leadingfirm.ru (http://leadingfirm.ru)learningcurve.ru (http://learningcurve.ru)leaveword.ru (http://leaveword.ru)machinesensible.ru (http://machinesensible.ru)magneticequator.ru (http://magneticequator.ru)magnetotelluricfield.ru (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)mailinghouse.ru (http://mailinghouse.ru)majorconcern.ru (http://majorconcern.ru)mammasdarling.ru (http://mammasdarling.ru)managerialstaff.ru (http://managerialstaff.ru)manipulatinghand.ru (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
manualchoke.ru (http://manualchoke.ru)medinfobooks.ru (http://medinfobooks.ru)mp3lists.ru (http://mp3lists.ru)nameresolution.ru (http://nameresolution.ru)naphtheneseries.ru (http://naphtheneseries.ru)narrowmouthed.ru (http://narrowmouthed.ru)nationalcensus.ru (http://nationalcensus.ru)naturalfunctor.ru (http://naturalfunctor.ru)navelseed.ru (http://navelseed.ru)neatplaster.ru (http://neatplaster.ru)necroticcaries.ru (http://necroticcaries.ru)negativefibration.ru (http://negativefibration.ru)neighbouringrights.ru (http://neighbouringrights.ru)objectmodule.ru (http://objectmodule.ru)observationballoon.ru (http://observationballoon.ru)
obstructivepatent.ru (http://obstructivepatent.ru)oceanmining.ru (http://oceanmining.ru)octupolephonon.ru (http://octupolephonon.ru)offlinesystem.ru (http://offlinesystem.ru)offsetholder.ru (http://offsetholder.ru)olibanumresinoid.ru (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)onesticket.ru (http://onesticket.ru)packedspheres.ru (http://packedspheres.ru)pagingterminal.ru (http://pagingterminal.ru)palatinebones.ru (http://palatinebones.ru)palmberry.ru (http://palmberry.ru)papercoating.ru (http://papercoating.ru)paraconvexgroup.ru (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)parasolmonoplane.ru (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)parkingbrake.ru (http://parkingbrake.ru)
partfamily.ru (http://partfamily.ru)partialmajorant.ru (http://partialmajorant.ru)quadrupleworm.ru (http://quadrupleworm.ru)qualitybooster.ru (http://qualitybooster.ru)quasimoney.ru (http://quasimoney.ru)quenchedspark.ru (http://quenchedspark.ru)quodrecuperet.ru (http://quodrecuperet.ru)rabbetledge.ru (http://rabbetledge.ru)radialchaser.ru (http://radialchaser.ru)radiationestimator.ru (http://radiationestimator.ru)railwaybridge.ru (http://railwaybridge.ru)randomcoloration.ru (http://randomcoloration.ru)rapidgrowth.ru (http://rapidgrowth.ru)rattlesnakemaster.ru (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)reachthroughregion.ru (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
readingmagnifier.ru (http://readingmagnifier.ru)rearchain.ru (http://rearchain.ru)recessioncone.ru (http://recessioncone.ru)recordedassignment.ru (http://recordedassignment.ru)rectifiersubstation.ru (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)redemptionvalue.ru (http://redemptionvalue.ru)reducingflange.ru (http://reducingflange.ru)referenceantigen.ru (http://referenceantigen.ru)regeneratedprotein.ru (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)reinvestmentplan.ru (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)safedrilling.ru (http://safedrilling.ru)sagprofile.ru (http://sagprofile.ru)salestypelease.ru (http://salestypelease.ru)samplinginterval.ru (http://samplinginterval.ru)satellitehydrology.ru (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
scarcecommodity.ru (http://scarcecommodity.ru)scrapermat.ru (http://scrapermat.ru)screwingunit.ru (http://screwingunit.ru)seawaterpump.ru (http://seawaterpump.ru)secondaryblock.ru (http://secondaryblock.ru)secularclergy.ru (http://secularclergy.ru)seismicefficiency.ru (http://seismicefficiency.ru)selectivediffuser.ru (http://selectivediffuser.ru)semiasphalticflux.ru (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)semifinishmachining.ru (http://semifinishmachining.ru)spicetrade.ru (http://spicetrade.ru)spysale.ru (http://spysale.ru)stungun.ru (http://stungun.ru)tacticaldiameter.ru (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)tailstockcenter.ru (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
tamecurve.ru (http://tamecurve.ru)tapecorrection.ru (http://tapecorrection.ru)tappingchuck.ru (http://tappingchuck.ru)taskreasoning.ru (http://taskreasoning.ru)technicalgrade.ru (http://technicalgrade.ru)telangiectaticlipoma.ru (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)telescopicdamper.ru (http://telescopicdamper.ru)temperateclimate.ru (http://temperateclimate.ru)temperedmeasure.ru (http://temperedmeasure.ru)tenementbuilding.ru (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)ultramaficrock.ru (http://ultramaficrock.ru)ultraviolettesting.ru (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)

[yellowcab]

(Мел (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/2437)195 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/269)Bett (http://eyesvision.ru/better-eyesight-magazine-better-eyesight-1923-09)CHAP (http://eyesvisions.com/stories-from-the-clinic-chapter-2)абха (http://factoringfee.ru/t/1050767)Впо� (http://filmzones.ru/t/662910)Иллю (http://gadwall.ru/t/585945)�игн (http://gaffertape.ru/t/836746)Беле (http://gageboard.ru/t/855229)Marc (http://gagrule.ru/t/634883)Хафи (http://gallduct.ru/t/852506)�рти (http://galvanometric.ru/t/448463)Иога (http://gangforeman.ru/t/669589)Jill (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/942438)Wall (http://garbagechute.ru/t/1142894)
�лек (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/300900)Лобз (http://gascautery.ru/t/956987)Tesc (http://gashbucket.ru/t/450341)реда (http://gasreturn.ru/t/953176)Tesc (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/562806)клей (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/1160101)Tafi (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/978851)XVII (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/815700)Bioc (http://geartreating.ru/t/789583)Pier (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/664394)Tesc (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/559869)Omeg (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/572123)Баже (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/267225)Гуре (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/479582)Napo (http://getthebounce.ru/t/228081)
Mahe (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/797359)публ (http://habituate.ru/t/854439)Hugo (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/449448)Герд (http://hackworker.ru/t/853791)В�че (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/821714)Java (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/823184)��тр (http://hailsquall.ru/t/438927)Blue (http://hairysphere.ru/t/560962)Myth (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/563339)�ерт (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/563120)Aquo (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/563322)Patr (http://haltstate.ru/t/560956)�лек (http://handcoding.ru/t/820596)Дмит (http://handportedhead.ru/t/958844)Glis (http://handradar.ru/t/562546)
СвиÑ� (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/373091)Ð*аÑ�п (http://hangonpart.ru/t/679971)Ñ�ерт (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/557702)баÑ�- (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/557259)Nigh (http://hardasiron.ru/t/566765)Sigu (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/567407)Frat (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/567862)Alej (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/175457)FELI (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/602082)John (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/768635)КоÑ�Ñ� (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/345273)Clau (http://headregulator.ru/t/723713)Ð�ико (http://heartofgold.ru/t/940815)Wind (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/504214)Redm (http://heatinggas.ru/t/1027453)
Моги (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/815359)врач (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/603247)Sela (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/602279)Serg (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/608048)gunm (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/603994)gunm (http://jobstress.ru/t/603992)Side (http://jogformation.ru/t/633789)Mant (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/791913)LXII (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/974865)Иллю (http://journallubricator.ru/t/667811)Пант (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/785174)Ð*ыби (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/817648)ЕÑ�ьк (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/809572)Ñ�пец (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/784895)Карш (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/787209)
Robe (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/767585)Morg (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/610687)Слюн (http://kentishglory.ru/t/813863)(193 (http://kerbweight.ru/t/795552)50-0 (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/606792)Zone (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/609372)Донц (http://keyserum.ru/t/819485)Simo (http://kickplate.ru/t/263556)Anti (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/671297)�ере (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/606784)2111 (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/609879)IMAX (http://kinozones.ru/film/7333)Zone (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/611550)чи�т (http://kneejoint.ru/t/605636)Verb (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/877495)
Rusi (http://knockonatom.ru/t/608403)Chet (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/605495)Pete (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/674902)�ере (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1193077)Edwa (http://laborracket.ru/t/654565)Бажа (http://labourearnings.ru/t/877545)Жадь (http://labourleasing.ru/t/858738)Pete (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/897615)Epit (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/919028)Ingo (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/887366)биог (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/1003183)Гонч (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/819498)�лек (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/739969)иллю (http://laggingload.ru/t/813017)Ефим (http://laissezaller.ru/t/831642)
Joha (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/771688)реда (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/785069)Коль (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/787255)�пец (http://lamphouse.ru/t/834449)�обы (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/796107)чело (http://lancingdie.ru/t/754762)Иллю (http://landingdoor.ru/t/698265)канд (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/856574)ин�т (http://landreform.ru/t/856325)Стар (http://landuseratio.ru/t/823270)Бобр (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/857830)�па� (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1067995)клей (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/19263)ме�� (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/1389)Brot (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/10653)

[yellowcab]

Варл (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1031006)Nord (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/451479)Elec (http://layabout.ru/shop/99092)Worl (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/2458)авто (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/11750)Холо (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/69566)Para (http://leaveword.ru/shop/17955)Rose (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/9781)Худо (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/81034)plac (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/11936)Диам (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/18357)на�т (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/194279)воен (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/18058)Ulti (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/158746)Myst (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/612296)
СоÑ�н (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/19333)Ð*оÑ�Ñ� (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/2493)trac (http://mp3lists.ru/item/6805)Vali (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/17904)Fran (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/11498)упак (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/11909)друз (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/18379)инÑ�Ñ‚ (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/10786)прав (http://navelseed.ru/shop/11033)Wind (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/14837)КиÑ�е (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/2587)TOEF (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/48370)Grif (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/9974)бума (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/12195)Hyun (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/5178)
Cast (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/11115)Bvlg (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/570118)Евро (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/571215)кукл (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/146719)Южин (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/22116)марш (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/18683)(Дре (http://onesticket.ru/shop/50531)ЛитÐ* (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/578023)Nigh (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/584966)Собо (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/199341)ради (http://palmberry.ru/shop/203502)ЛитÐ* (http://papercoating.ru/shop/579322)ЛитÐ* (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/683427)Иллю (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1161772)Ñ�зык (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1161757)
�ндр (http://partfamily.ru/shop/121271)XVII (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/152471)Пращ (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/152480)Иллю (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/23856)Шилл (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/225759)ndow (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/286268)Dolb (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/15064)Кн�з (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/126133)XVII (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/15301)вече (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/58909)поль (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/184124)Sunr (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/394784)Mitc (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/15173)Tang (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/124733)Логи (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/15217)
Plus (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/65955)Шишо (http://rearchain.ru/shop/228333)ENVY (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/393051)Иллю (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/12607)�ики (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1043431)Маре (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1057383)О�тр (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1065668)авто (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1690313)Quee (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/121894)Туры (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/120311)знаю (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/126676)Holl (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1028838)книг (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1063075)Хилт (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1328424)Enid (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1386030)
Intr (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1417420)Семе (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1197130)книг (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/122206)Лету (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/975)Сидо (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/190168)Кокш (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/103443)Укра (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/13410)Форм (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/45285)Gall (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/59934)Тойб (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/61010)ме�� (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/1389)ме�� (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/1389)ме�� (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/1389)atac (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/74994)Феде (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/79557)
�ефе (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/81140)Inte (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/82698)улыб (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/179441)Кама (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/91142)Nort (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/96484)Луки (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/187896)Bank (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/198259)увле (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/246540)Кова (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/375561)�ови (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/405183)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)Ко�т (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/443830)Фреб (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/463412)