Teaching in America

[Ken]

Quite frankly, and this DOES NOT APPLY TO ALL, many of our teachers teach because they simply can't cut it in other professions. They look at the work hours, vacations, and benefits and apply for the job.

I know several teachers very well. Many clearly do not possess the subject knowledge, teaching ability, or personality which the profession should demand. Several are even incapable of writing a coherent letter or set of instructions.

How can these people possibly motivate our kids or hold their attention? And we wonder why our educational system is failing so miserably........

[mountain mama]

I feel the same way about most lawyers

[laughingbeetle]

uhuh...backing away now.... gonna go check out another thread, yeah, thats what I'm gonna do...

[Ken]

I feel the same way about most lawyers

Perhaps rightfully so in some cases. I call 'em as I see 'em.

[LostOutrider]

Doug,
When I was teaching, we were told specifically to NEVER mention ADHD, because if we did, the school district would be liable for providing medical treatment for the condition. A Conner's scale rating requires at least 2 people to fill out the forms, usually a parent and the teacher. The results are based on both. Any doctor making a diagnosis without sufficient information could possibly be considered to be negligent in his practice.

Mama beat me to it. I've been 10 years in this profession and numerous times I have had parents come to me with very leading questions that are - essentially - asking for medical advice. Each time I smile and suggest that they save those questions for their family doctor. I wonder about folks who blame a child's medical diagnosis on teachers. Do these folks get financial counseling from the guy that changes their oil? Do they ask their bank teller to diagnose the rattling sound their Chevy makes? Do they go to their local animal control officer for marital advice?

As someone who may directly interact with a child several hours more a day than a harried working parent, I can see how my observation of the child's behavior and symptoms would assist in a diagnosis (see Mama's post again for how we do that). I may even see behaviors that the little precious angels would never think of exhibiting at home.

[LostOutrider]

Quite frankly, and this DOES NOT APPLY TO ALL, many of our teachers teach because they simply can't cut it in other professions. They look at the work hours, vacations, and benefits and apply for the job.

I know several teachers very well. Many clearly do not possess the subject knowledge, teaching ability, or personality which the profession should demand. Several are even incapable of writing a coherent letter or set of instructions.

How can these people possibly motivate our kids or hold their attention? And we wonder why our educational system is failing so miserably........

This is pure bunk.

If you want to toss something like that out, then back it up with more proof than, "I know some! I do!"

Cite studies that show our educational system is failing so miserably. Show me any other nation that is mandated by law to educate every single child - no matter how disabled, hungry, prepared, or poorly parented - that has done a better job. Especially in the past 10-20 years.

Are there bad teachers? Yeah. Guess what, there are bad doctors, bad cops, bad soldiers, and bad preachers. Any time you rely on human labor, you'll find human failing. I don't see you or anyone else bashing those professions the way you just painted a wide brush across mine.

[crashdive123]

Do they go to their local animal control officer for marital advice? Ahhh, nevermind.

[Rick]

I think there is a middle ground on our educational system. I've also taught but at the college level. Ken is right, there are some frighteningly bad examples of teachers out there. But, there are also frighteningly bad examples of police officers, doctors, tattoo artists and on and on. Every profession has them. Most of the folks I associated with truly did want to do a good job. Some did it better than others but that doesn't negate the fact they were still doing a good job and really wanted to help others learn.

There is also a lot of room for improvement in our scholastic systems. As head of the academic committee I was shocked at the quality of some of the texts that were presented to us for review. I recall one particularly bad accounting text that didn't. I'm not certain it was ever proofed because the answers were wrong. Anyhoo. Teachers, administrators, staff support, equipment, again, on and on. All those things can be improved on and accepting anything less than the best short changes our most valuable resource, our kids.

And there are other countries that mandate every child must attend. They even pay for it all the way through Phd. And we are seeing some gifted folks turned out by those government schools. India, Pakistan, Saudia Arabia to name a few. The U.S. only graduates about 75% of its students from high school. That's pretty alarming. South Korea, in contrast, graduates about 93%.

That does not lessen the fact that we have some very gifted instructors trying very hard to do an excellent job.....and succeeding. And it certainly doesn't speak down about our teachers as a whole. They should be commended for the job they do. And boy do I ever think discipline begins at home. School is not a day care or a substitute for proper parenting. I'm certain part of that 75% up above is because of poor parenting skills. It seems like we teach our kids how to do everything except how to be good parents and how to manage money.

[Ken]

This is pure bunk.

If you want to toss something like that out, then back it up with more proof than, "I know some! I do!"

Cite studies that show our educational system is failing so miserably. Show me any other nation that is mandated by law to educate every single child - no matter how disabled, hungry, prepared, or poorly parented - that has done a better job.

Okay, how about this?

One of our local school systems has just been designated as "FAILING." A state monitor has been appointed. Drop out rate is almost 50%. I guess these kids are really motivated in the classroom, huh?

I taught at a local university for several years, and half of the essays my freshman students turned in reflected a complete lack of writing skills. These students came from several school systems, both in state and out-of-state. I taught thousands of college students, and believe that many simply graduated from diploma-mill high schools.

I actually read many of the papers written by teachers, such as homework assignments, that the kids bring home. Some of these teachers require a remedial grammar course. One set of instructions was entirely unintelligible.

I know a language arts teacher who admits to not having read a book since college - 22 years ago....... I know several others who clearly don't belong in a classroom.

I speak from personal AND professional experience.

I value education. I certainly value my 22 years of formal education, as well as the 10+ years I stood in front of the class. Unfortunately, I believe that, today, many students are being woefully shortchanged in the public school systems.

[bulrush]

Let's make another thread for bashing schools, shall we? I worked in a school for 3 years and have stories.

[Ken]

This is pure bunk.

If you want to toss something like that out, then back it up with more proof than, "I know some! I do!"

Read this report:

http://www.doe.mass.edu/sda/review/district/reports/evaluation/08_0095.doc

[mountain mama]

I was recently asked if teachers were "held to a higher standard". Here was my reply:
Actually, yes it does happen with teachers. I think teachers get a bad rap, in general. We have a four year degree just like any other professional, yet are only paid a portion of what others make. We have to take additional testing in our subject areas to ensure that we are competent in order to be certified and licensed. We have more background checks than any other profession. We have quarterly reviews by multiple supervisors. If our students don't perform well on standardized testing, we take pay cuts. We are required to attend professional development courses regularly. And, since the "No Child Left Behind", we have to be rated as "highly qualified" in order to continue teaching. While we do not work at the school from 9 to 5, most teachers are never in bed before 10 pm due to staying up grading papers, making lesson plans, or researching new material. As for having summers off, most teachers vie for summer school positions, because we can't afford not to work during the summers.
As LostOutrider pointed out, we aren't all provided the same basic material (the kids themselves) to work with. When I was working in inner-city Dallas, my children often came to school tired from mama and daddy drunk and fighting all night long, hungry because dad spent the food money on his crack habit, mentally deficient because mama drank throughout her pregnancy, and do you really think they took the time to do their homework the night before??? As teachers, we do our best with what we have to work with. And yet, we are still held accountable even if we are working with the least motivated students.

[mountain mama]

or bad nutrition (too much sugar in a kid does bad things). There are many studies disproving this theory (sugar).


The best thing to do is try some meds. The best thing to do is see a doctor.


Though people don't talk about it, there are lots of people on meds. What's worse, someone who is on meds, or someone who isn't, but should be?So true.

[mountain mama]

Read this report:

http://www.doe.mass.edu/sda/review/district/reports/evaluation/08_0095.doc

This is ONE district. And I would like to see a report on the material these teachers are working with (children and parents). Are these low SES students? How many are mentally deficient?

Where is the responsibility for the children and the parents these days? Everyone wants to blame the teacher, but my own children had the same teachers as the failing students and my kids are acing the standardized tests and bringing home A's on their report cards. Is it good breeding? Maybe. Is it good parenting? Possibly. Is it good teaching? It's the same teaching that the failing students are getting. So what is the differentiating factor here? It sure ain't the teachers.

[LostOutrider]

Read this report:

http://www.doe.mass.edu/sda/review/district/reports/evaluation/08_0095.doc

That the best you can find? I read it. Granted, not all 88 pages of it, but enough to see that of the "six significant weaknesses" that are screwing up this district - stupid teachers didn't make the cut.

1. "The school committee is involving itself in the management of the school district rather than focusing on making policy decisions. As a result, it is not effectively governing the school system or securing municipal and community support for the district. This is a significant weakness in the district." I'm guessing that school committee is the same as what we call a school board which is - and correct me if I'm wrong - but usually not composed of educators or people with training/degrees in education. Business and community leaders who have control over school policy tend to compose such governing bodies.

2. "Although principals have authority in their own buildings, school leaders receive insufficient mentoring and inadequate support from the central office in the critical areas of teacher hiring and evaluation, their school’s budget, and the acquisition of necessary instructional materials and supplies." So, another problem in this failing district is that we aren't giving teachers what they need. Cool.

3. "The failure of the district to evaluate its programs and services leaves it without sufficient knowledge to identify their weaknesses and remedy them, recognize redundancy in the curriculum, or determine which new research-based practices would be of most use to its students. This is a significant weakness in the district." Which, seems to me, means that the crap they're forcing the teachers to do is no good. Again, are we at the part where the fault is with people too stupid and lazy to do anything but teach? No? I'll keep going.

4. "The district’s human resources system lacks qualified, experienced executive leadership as well as effective administrative systems, structures, and procedures. This is a significant weakness in the district." Hm... the people running the district. . . not the teachers actually working with the kids. Still haven't found where this puts the fault on teachers.

5. "The district lacks adequate financial systems and procedures for budgeting, procurement, hiring, financial management, planning, and reporting. This is a significant weakness in the district." I'm just a teacher, but that seems to be something other than, ah, teachers.

6. "In fiscal year 2009 Fall River will not meet its Net School Spending requirement by $1.4 million. The school appropriation declined between fiscal year 2008 and fiscal year 2009 by $2.5 million and serious personnel, programmatic, service, and facility reductions ensued. This is a significant weakness in the district." Looks like this district isn't managing the money correctly. Do they make those stupid teachers do that?


If you meant to demonstrate that teachers screwed up that district, then maybe my reading comprehension isn't advanced enough to infer that. My problem, brother, is not that you think there are broken schools. There are. I've devoted my professional life to making them better. Where I take issue is with bashing the one group of people who are the least at fault, who are doing the hardest job, and who take the full load at the bottom of the hill.

As far as comparing us with South Korea (where high school is not mandatory) and Saudi Arabia (where the curriculum is heavily based on Islamic religious study) - - unless we're prepared to emulate them completely down to our requirements and national funding formulas - it just isn't a fair comparison.

One other note about Saudi and Korean schools, look up the percentage of male teachers there compared to here. This isn't to comment on female teachers, but our society has shamed men out of this profession for the most part. . . . and our boys are paying the price for it.

Unless you have any other studies for me to read, then I'm done clogging up this forum. I welcome the chance to continue this through private messages, though.

[Rick]

I've creating this thread and moving the posts out of the ADHD just to clean it up.

[Ken]

Outrider, thank you for the friendship request. Quite frankly, I felt honored to receive and accept it.

Moving on…….. did you read my first post?


.......and this DOES NOT APPLY TO ALL.....

But regardless........

The motivation to learn should be instilled at home AND IN THE CLASSROOM. If teachers don't assume responsibility for this, aren't we simply giving up on students who have parents who don't value education?

The school system I referenced has a 54.1% graduation rate for all students. Alternatively, 45.9% of all students drop out. Of the 54.1% who actually graduate, how many do you think make it through by the skin of their teeth?

While at school, students interact primarily with teachers, not administrators, coordinators, custodial staff, etc. Who has the best opportunity to motivate these kids?

I agree that there are many excellent teachers in the public school systems. I suspect that there are an equal number of dismal ones as well.

Please remember that many of these kids, from a host of cities and states, sat in MY classroom three months after graduating from high school. Far too many had horrible reading and writing skills, and many of THOSE graduated in the top half of their respective classes. I was one of the first to test these "products" of the public school systems, and I was sad to realize just how very poorly many of these kids had been prepared for college.......

Years ago, I was recruited to teach at one particular local college. I was handed a class syllabus and told which textbook I would be using. This class met once each week, and I gave reading assignments of about 75 pages per week in order to complete the syllabus requirements. Guess what? The program director informed me that my students could not possibly read such a "large amount" each week, and I could therefore assign no more than 20 pages of reading per week. In other words, I was expected to "go through the motions" but not actually give these students an education or require them to perform. I declined an offer to teach there again the next semester, and returned to teach at a university that actually had some academic standards.

[Ken]

I've creating this thread and moving the posts out of the ADHD just to clean it up.

Great idea. Thanks, Rick. Now we know why Super Mods get paid more than teachers and lawyers. :innocent:

[Rick]

I have to support what Ken said about written material at the college level. I saw a lot of that, too. Many of my students were financially disadvantaged and I'm not certain how they managed to pass high school. Some of it was atrocious. Little wonder so many folks do so poorly in life if that is representative of the knowledge they gain in school.

I also side with MM on the pay issue. But I think the same thing holds true with police, fire and medic as well. I've never figured out why we put our children and our lives in the hands of folks and then consciously not pay them well. Doesn't make sense to me.

[mountain mama]

Another point I would like to bring up is "social advancement". This is where teachers are REQUIRED to pass students on to the next grade level so that they will not be older than their peers, whether or not they have mastered the basic curriculum for said grade level or not. Do you think we enjoy watching our students coming to class unprepared and not putting forth any effort?

[Ole WV Coot]

Got a question for the folks who have or do earn a living by teaching. I would like to know why there is such an uproar if a "citizen" like me mentions you qualifying every couple of years just to make sure you are qualified to teach the subject you are teaching? Also please explain why you don't take unscheduled drug tests. In this state it is the teacher's union that seems to push teachers above the level we normal working stiffs need to subject ourselves in order to continue working. Why can a college professor such as one I had years ago spend a semester talking about his damn cat simply because he has the proverbial lock on the job. In any job that can cause harm to anyone doing it why is a valuable resource such as young people thrown to "people" merely because of their major in basket weaving in college? Don't think a majority would have it easy out in the world where you must prove your ability every day. Personal opinion, take it or whatever.........

[LostOutrider]

I have to support what Ken said about written material at the college level.

If post-secondary had standards beyond a credit check, then we wouldn't have this issue. If the student isn't ready for college, then why is he admitted?


Got a question for the folks who have or do earn a living by teaching. I would like to know why there is such an uproar if a "citizen" like me mentions you qualifying every couple of years just to make sure you are qualified to teach the subject you are teaching? Also please explain why you don't take unscheduled drug tests. In this state it is the teacher's union that seems to push teachers above the level we normal working stiffs need to subject ourselves in order to continue working. Why can a college professor such as one I had years ago spend a semester talking about his damn cat simply because he has the proverbial lock on the job. In any job that can cause harm to anyone doing it why is a valuable resource such as young people thrown to "people" merely because of their major in basket weaving in college? Don't think a majority would have it easy out in the world where you must prove your ability every day. Personal opinion, take it or whatever.........

1. I earn 60 hours of required training every year in order to stay certified. Over the past 10 years, I have taken three additional qualification tests to add other areas of certification. I am currently certified K-12 in one subject and 5-8 in all four core subjects. I have two undergraduate degrees in my field and one masters. I'll work on my National Board certification as soon as I get my wife through her Master's degree. I work for a district that has frozen the automatic pay increase for teachers without a Master's or higher. I'm cool with qualification. It is a good idea.

2. I'm required to take a drug test if I ever file a workman's comp claim. While I did have to have a federal background check, the only time I had to take a drug test for employment was when I worked in a paper mill. No problems there. Talk to your local school board and see if they'll have that policy added.

3. College professors and public school teachers exist in very different universes. I can't really speak to that.

4. If you don't think my ability is proven every day, then you have never been singularly responsible for maintaining the attention of 25 unmotivated teenagers at 2:30 in May - on a schedule designed for an agricultural society - using methods, materials, and technology designed to train an industrial society - meant to train children raised in a purely technological/informational society. If that isn't enough, then every April my ability & worth is measured by the performance of the same teenagers on a week-long standardized test that has absolutely no consequence for the child if he/she simply decides they're not in the mood to do well that day.

[mcfd45]

Here is my take on our failing education system. (please excuse any grammatical errors as I was a graduate of the system lol) I am not a parent nor am I a teacher.

1: We do not have enough teachers for our children, 40+ students to a classroom is unacceptable and lets our children that don't understand the subject matter fall behind.

2: The teachers we do have need better training.

3: We need to wim the war on drugs. We have an enemy declaring biological/chemical warfare on our country. Many students that drop out have used drugs during school.

4: Children are exposed to more today then ever before. They experience copious amounts of stress and we have few councilors available to help the students cope and get through it. Stress can be from home, drugs, sex, money, bullies, you name it.

5: Funding for schools, libraries, museums, college, etc is constantly decreasing. This causes many problems for schools.

6: No child left behind does not work. It punishes the schools that need help the most.

Now I have a question that I would like answered.

We are the most powerful, richest most developed nation in the world. Why can't we provide free college? It isn't like we would not see the results returned to our coffers.

according to the us census 1998, 1999, 2000 the average HS graduate has an average income of around 31K, and bachelors get about 52K.
I figure over the course of 20+ years the investment would be paid off many times through taxes.

I am not a teacher nor am I a parent. to me both are the same job, you are given a ball of clay to mold. Sometimes you get a vase, sometimes you get a soapdish. It is unfortunate when you end up scrapping the clay. Both are hard jobs.

[mountain mama]

Got a question for the folks who have or do earn a living by teaching. I would like to know why there is such an uproar if a "citizen" like me mentions you qualifying every couple of years just to make sure you are qualified to teach the subject you are teaching?That is already in place due to Bush's "No Child Left Behind". Teachers are now required to be "highly qualified" http://www.aft.org/topics/nclb/downloads/HQT_0404.pdf
Also please explain why you don't take unscheduled drug tests.I have never heard of a school district that didn't subject teachers to unscheduled drug testing.
In this state it is the teacher's union that seems to push teachers above the level we normal working stiffs need to subject ourselves in order to continue working.Please explain what you meant by this.
Why can a college professor such as one I had years ago spend a semester talking about his damn cat simply because he has the proverbial lock on the job.Because colleges are not held to the same standards as public education.
In any job that can cause harm to anyone doing it why is a valuable resource such as young people thrown to "people" merely because of their major in basket weaving in college?I agree that anyone with a degree shouldn't be able to be qualified as a teacher. The problem is there aren't enough people willing to be teachers and thus, they are having to resort to taking some left overs. Why do you think this is? If they treated the real professional teachers with more dignity and respect (smaller class sizes and larger paychecks) maybe they wouldn't have to look elsewhere to fill spots.
Don't think a majority would have it easy out in the world where you must prove your ability every day. Personal opinion, take it or whatever.........Teachers do have to prove our ability every day. There seems to be a LOT of speculation without substance going on here. Rather than complaining, why don't you guys go volunteer at your local elementary, middle school or high school. Then you could see for yourselves what is really going on.

[Sarge47]

Dang but I'm glad I drive a bus...although there are "bad bus drivers too.":cool2:

[mountain mama]

Here is my take on our failing education system. (please excuse any grammatical errors as I was a graduate of the system lol) I am not a parent nor am I a teacher.

1: We do not have enough teachers for our children, 40+ students to a classroom is unacceptable and lets our children that don't understand the subject matter fall behind.Agreed, but this is not determined by the teachers


2: The teachers we do have need better training.I believe we are very well trained, thank you very much. 60+ hours of professional development per year just to maintain certification seems to be more than most professionals are subjected to.


4: Children are exposed to more today then ever before. They experience copious amounts of stress and we have few councilors available to help the students cope and get through it. Stress can be from home, drugs, sex, money, bullies, you name it.Don't forget lack of discipline. And again, this is not determined by the teachers.


5: Funding for schools, libraries, museums, college, etc is constantly decreasing. This causes many problems for schools. agreed


6: No child left behind does not work. It punishes the schools that need help the most. Yes and no. I think it is good to hold teachers to a higher standard. However, there does need to be concessions made for the raw material each teacher is dealt.


Now I have a question that I would like answered.

We are the most powerful, richest most developed nation in the world. Why can't we provide free college? It isn't like we would not see the results returned to our coffers.There are plenty of grants and federal funding available to those who qualify. Otherwise, there are a few schools like this one: http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090502/us_time/08599189548200


according to the us census 1998, 1999, 2000 the average HS graduate has an average income of around 31K, and bachelors get about 52K.not for teachers. When I was teaching in Dallas, I actually qualified for government assistance in the form of medicaid because my pay was so low... I worked 3 jobs to make ends meet (teaching, tutoring, and pizza delivery on the weekends) and that was with a bachelor's degree.


I am not a teacher nor am I a parent. to me both are the same job, you are given a ball of clay to mold. Sometimes you get a vase, sometimes you get a soapdish. It is unfortunate when you end up scrapping the clay. Both are hard jobs.The problem comes when you have two sculptors working with the same piece of clay and one is trying to transform a piece of art and the other is satisfied with a coffee mug.

[mcfd45]

Agreed, but this is not determined by the teachers

I believe we are very well trained, thank you very much. 60+ hours of professional development per year just to maintain certification seems to be more than most professionals are subjected to.

Don't forget lack of discipline. And again, this is not determined by the teachers.

agreed

Yes and no. I think it is good to hold teachers to a higher standard. However, there does need to be concessions made for the raw material each teacher is dealt.

There are plenty of grants and federal funding available to those who qualify. Otherwise, there are a few schools like this one: http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090502/us_time/08599189548200

not for teachers. When I was teaching in Dallas, I actually qualified for government assistance in the form of medicaid because my pay was so low... I worked 3 jobs to make ends meet (teaching, tutoring, and pizza delivery on the weekends) and that was with a bachelor's degree.

The problem comes when you have two sculptors working with the same piece of clay and one is trying to transform a piece of art and the other is satisfied with a coffee mug.

I was unaware of the 60 hours of continuing ed. is that a state or federal or some sort of other cert? And while I love the Idea of Berea college they only have about 1500 students, nowhere near enough.

[Ole WV Coot]

From the answers I received the one thing that sticks out is school systems sure aren't equal. In this state it appears to be all political as in once hired, never fired. I can only go by what I personally see and I don't care for it. My son is a product of the public school system, his three aren't. Teachers have no respect from students, observation only. We are seriously lacking concerning the training you have had. I have the utmost respect for educators who take their job seriously, and as to me teaching NOPE. As to pay I can agree that some are underpaid, those that meet the qualifications you say you have. My grandchildren have been home schooled and attended a private Christian school. I do congratulate you on your determination to teach despite the politics and laws you must cope with. If I have offended I apologize.

[LostOutrider]

Teachers do have to prove our ability every day. There seems to be a LOT of speculation without substance going on here. Rather than complaining, why don't you guys go volunteer at your local elementary, middle school or high school. Then you could see for yourselves what is really going on.

Shoot, don't volunteer. Get paid for it. Call your local district's central office and tell them you'd like to be on the sub list. If you want an easy experience, do it in August, September, or January. If you want to know what it is really like - then go in December, April, or May. Keep in mind that the teacher will have already done most of the work for you: preparing the students (curriculum as well as procedures), writing the lessons, gathering and researching the materials, planning the assessments, having duty covered, etc. You'll just have to show up and follow the detailed sub plans we're required to leave behind -and- you'll get paid for it! Shoot, in this economy everyone could use a little extra money. Schools will always need substitutes.

I subbed for almost a year before I decided to head into my own classroom.


If I have offended I apologize.

Brother, considering all we see in a given day - it takes a lot to offend. Me 'n Mama are just trying to educate y'all. Pro bono even. Stamping out ignorance. Raising the righteous flag of fevered discourse in this glorious forum.

[Rick]

If post-secondary had standards beyond a credit check, then we wouldn't have this issue. If the student isn't ready for college, then why is he admitted?

Actually, they weren't. I was teaching an Eng Pre 031 class trying to bring up their English skills so they could qualify. I had several ESL students and one that was profoundly hearing impaired. I loved teaching them. They were eager and truly wanted to learn. The rest were a problem. Sadly, some just didn't make it. They either dropped out mid way through the semester or failed to pass the class. Fortunately, I was NOT required to pass them if they didn't have a command of the material.

[LostOutrider]

Well, we're back to what Mama and I are grinding our teeth on. The students you just described are not products of bad teachers in public schools.

I need to look up the latest burn-out statistics for teachers entering the profession.

Edited to add: Still looking for recent statistics, but came across this article written about 11 years ago when I entered the profession. Which is cool to me, because the article describes my generation of teachers as "what may be the most gifted generation of teachers." That woman was a prophet! :)

http://weeklywire.com/ww/10-27-97/memphis_cvr.html

2nd Edit: Found one:
"The U.S. Department of Education reports that over the next decade, more than two million new teachers will walk into a classroom for their first day. Unfortunately, as the National Center for Education Statistics found, 666,000 of those new teachers will leave sometime during the first three years of teaching and one million of them will not make it past five years."

That is from a 2003 study, but I'm seeing it referenced it reports published as early as this year.

[Rick]

The rest of the students were but I'm hammering on it. Even the very best institutions have top and bottom students. I have no figures to back it up but it is MY OPINION that you will see more students who are not prepared from financially strapped city schools than from more urban environments. Again, that's my observation and I could be totally wrong. The up side to that is even those that I called atrocious were trying to improve their lives by continuing their education.

And I'm in your corner on this whole conversation. I think teachers, as a whole, are overworked and underpaid. There is a reason I have never taught at the elementary or high school level. I'm quite certain I'd be arrested for murdering the little darlings. Especially if they were anything like I was in school.

[LostOutrider]

When I was teaching in Dallas, I actually qualified for government assistance in the form of medicaid because my pay was so low... I worked 3 jobs to make ends meet (teaching, tutoring, and pizza delivery on the weekends) and that was with a bachelor's degree.

I just caught this part and had to smile. My contract in 2000 was for $21k and, at the time, I had two undergrad degrees (BA and BSE) in my content area. I qualified for HUD housing assistance and would have been unable to make my truck payment without doing construction as a second job.

Keep in mind, this whole idea of teachers being on vacation all the time is inaccurate. We are contracted for 192 days of work with 9 days of paid sick leave and 1 day of personal business leave. What you call 'vacation' is actually temporary unemployment. We are hired and fired every year. They will nicely divide my 192 days of pay over 12 months if I want - but they aren't paying me for one single day past the 192 on my contract.

I'm not complaining about the pay. I knew what it was before I took the job. I just want to rub out a misconception about dumb folks flocking to be teachers because of the benefits and the vacations. Those folks, if they do exist, tend to quickly discover the error in their calculations.

[mountain mama]

Brother, considering all we see in a given day - it takes a lot to offend. Me 'n Mama are just trying to educate y'all. Pro bono even. Stamping out ignorance. Raising the righteous flag of fevered discourse in this glorious forum.

Yeah, what he said ^


Teachers have no respect from students, observation only.This varies according to area. Here in Idaho, I see that the teachers have to endure precious little Mormon angels (some really are) whose mamas think they do no wrong. In inner-city Dallas, I found that if I had a discipline problem in the classroom, all I had to do was pick up the phone and call mama. She would be out in the hallway paddling little Johnny before I could hang up the phone. When I taught in a rural town outside a large AFB, the airforce kids behavior was varied based upon the rank of the parent. It seemed that the ones with parents higher up the food chain would act out MORE. Either they would push it just far enough that you wouldn't call daddy, or they wanted you to call daddy as a punishment for him being so hard-nosed at home (sort of like preacher's kids acting out). Another thing I have noticed is the difference between the Northwest and the South. In the south, our students still referred to us as "maam" and "sir". That is where I believe respect begins. (One reason I love this forum so much)

[mountain mama]

Got this in email and just had to share it with y'all:
Subject: No Child Left Behind in Football

The football version of what is going on in education right now.

1. All teams must make the state playoffs and all MUST win the
championship. If a team does not win the championship, they will be
on probation until they are the champions, and coaches will be held
accountable. If after two years they have not won the championship
their footballs and equipment will be taken away UNTIL they do win
the championship.

2. All kids will be expected to have the same football skills at the
same time, even if they do not have the same conditions or
opportunities to practice on their own. NO exceptions will be made
for lack of interest in football, a desire to perform athletically, or
genetic abilities or disabilities of themselves or their parents. ALL
KIDS WILL PLAY FOOTBALL AT A PROFICIENT LEVEL!

3. Talented players will be asked to workout on their own, without
instruction. This is because the coaches will be using all their
instructional time with the athletes who aren't interested in
football, have limited athletic ability or whose parents don't like
football.

4. Games will be played year round, but statistics will only be kept
in the 3rd, 5th, 8th, and 11th game. This will create a New Age of
Sports where every school is expected to have the same level of
talent and all teams will reach the same minimum goals. If no child gets
ahead, then no child gets left behind. If parents do not like this
new law, they are encouraged to vote for vouchers and support private
schools that can screen out the non-athletes and prevent their
children from having to go to school with bad football players.

[Terri]

I am just a mom and can only speak from my own experience. I have 5 boys and the oldest just completed the 7th grade. About 4 years ago we switched school sytems mid year because my oldest son was failing school. He was a hard worker but struggled academically. He was quiet and shy not a behavior problem at all. For 2 1/2 years we did between 1 and 3 hours of homework EVERY night. Each year I would talk to the teacher over and over again and no one really seemed to care much. I finally got fed up and switched schools through the schools of choice program and since we moved he has consistently been on the honor roll.

Interestingly enough the first school kept telling me they just didn't have the resouces to help him, but would not allow me to come in and volunteer. At the kids new school I volunteer almost every day. I think a lot of the problems may be at the administrative level? The teachers at the old school just didn't seem to give a rip one way or the other, but at the new school every one I have dealt with has gone above and beyond what should be expected and given 110% percent to help him do well.

There is a definite difference in school systems whatever the reasons may be.

[mountain mama]

I can certainly say that the principals/administration sets the pace for the school. Sometimes it is difficult to care when everything you try to do is undone at the administrative level.

[DOGMAN]

Ken,
I see what your saying, but I'm going to say the problem isn't with the teachers, its the values of our society as a whole. The teachers are products of the education system- the teachers and administrators are just repeating a cycle that is outdated and boring.

We value professional athletes, actors and talk show hosts more than we value the people that EDUCATE our children.

Our culture wants to be Entertained not educated. Education is boring.

Kids today strive to be famous, not to be good or knowledgeable at something. In times past people became famous or infamous because of their mastery of something...be it music, acting, football, wood working, karate, etc...superior knowledge and skills lead to fame and fortune. Now days people just want to be famous, like Paris Hilton and a host of other dregs- no substance- just fluff.

Until we can instill the values of substance, quality and achievement back into our society, we as a nation are going to get dumber and dumber. Sadly, Popularity and apperance trumps true genius, and its going to stay that way until the geniuses figure out a way to make learning sexy, edgy, entertaining and fun!

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

ADHD - The term and the methamphetamine treatment makes me sick. It should be defined as poor parenting.

[Rick]

@ Jason - You may well be on to something here, IMHO. We've taught our kids to want and expect immediate gratification. Why should education be any different? We've taught them earning the diploma is more important than acquiring the education. I'm not talking about teachers but society as a whole. I saw that in every class I taught. The diploma will open the door but the knowledge they acquire through the education is what will earn respect and rewards. They are trading a lifetime for 4 years.

@ Cowboysurvival - I would think it more than poor parenting. It would be difficult to explain why one brother has trouble and one brother (or sisters) excels if parenting were the problem. We're all individuals with our own unique abilities and disabilities. It's my opinion that we need to praise the abilities and assist the disabilities in whatever means is fruitful for that individual.

@ Terri - I can not imagine the level of energy you must possess to keep 5 young men of that age rounded up. The fact you spend time volunteering at their school will reap tremendous rewards. Kids learn by example and from all appearances you and your husband are doing a great job. Kudos!

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

Rick,

I can agree with your point. I have just run accross too many single moms who's lack of proper parenting resulted in doped up kids. I just think in alot of cases proper mentoring could resolve the issue. Drugs aren't always the answer to what is ailing our society.

[mountain mama]

ADHD - The term and the methamphetamine treatment makes me sick. It should be defined as poor parenting.Funny, I don’t see anything about a medical degree in your profile.

I completely agree with Rick on this aspect. I have suffered from ADHD since I was a child, long before it was a commonly used diagnosis. I can assure you it is a real and serious issue for me and it was not caused by bad parenting. I had to learn coping techniques such as waking up at 3 a.m. to study for tests in college to avoid the distractions that come during the day. My own daughter was having serious issues in school until diagnosed as ADHD and put on a small dose of medication. Now she is an A student who just received the Presidential Academic Achievement Award. The medication didn’t make her smarter, it just allowed her to focus long enough to tap into her intellect.


@ Terri - I can not imagine the level of energy you must possess to keep 5 young men of that age rounded up. The fact you spend time volunteering at their school will reap tremendous rewards. Kids learn by example and from all appearances you and your husband are doing a great job. Kudos!Now try doing that with 15+ boys and 15+ girls in a classroom fulltime! I do agree that some schools are better than others, but I don’t think it is the teachers that make or break a school. It goes much higher up the ladder than that. It is important for parents to be involved in the education of their children, so hat’s off to mothers and fathers like Terri.


I can agree with your point. I have just run accross too many single moms who's lack of proper parenting resulted in doped up kids. I just think in alot of cases proper mentoring could resolve the issue. Drugs aren't always the answer to what is ailing our society.Where are the daddy’s in these situations? I think THAT may be one of the biggest issues of what’s “ailing our society”. Unfortunately, many males of the species are not fulfilling the requirements of parenthood beyond the conception portion of parenting. God knew what he was doing when he required both a mother and a father for breeding. The Daddy’s are there to have all the fun and the Mommy’s are there to make sure the kids survive it. In all sincerity, it is so sad that many of our children do not have a decent male role model in their lives.

[Terri]

Thank you Rick and Mountain Mama for your kind words. I have to admit I am ready for that golden hour of bedtime every night!

[Chris]

we need to bust teachers unions, fire all the bad ones, and pay the good ones more (and require masters degrees)

[Rick]

backing slowly away from the thread.

[mountain mama]

we need to bust teachers unions, fire all the bad ones, and pay the good ones more (and require masters degrees)

I wouldn't work for a district that didn't have a union. They protect good teachers from bad administration. I was once a whistle blower against a bad administrator and she tried to have me fired for it. If it weren't for the union, I wouldn't have been able to keep my profession.

I have seen far more bad administrators than teachers. Maybe you should start at the top and work your way down.

We have a hard enough time finding enough teachers with bachelor's degrees. How do you propose getting enough with masters? Furthermore, to pay more, would require more taxes.

[LostOutrider]

What Mama said. The teacher union also protects me from litigation-happy parents. In this society, lawsuits are used as weapons. You don't have to be guilty or even in the wrong to get sued. If you have the money, the time, and a lawyer - then you can sue anyone. When you start dealing with disabled students, it gets even touchier. I've been threatened with all kinds of lawsuits that, thankfully, were just threats.

The first one that isn't a threat, though, would ruin my career and my finances because I don't make enough on my own to fight it. The school sure isn't going to allocate resources to fight it for me. My dues pay for representation and up to a couple million in liability. When your teenager breaks his arm doing something stupid that you told him not to do - it is one thing. If he does it while I'm the only duty teacher for 500+ students, then it becomes a lawsuit.

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

Funny, I don’t see anything about a medical degree in your profile.

I completely agree with Rick on this aspect. I have suffered from ADHD since I was a child, long before it was a commonly used diagnosis. I can assure you it is a real and serious issue for me and it was not caused by bad parenting. I had to learn coping techniques such as waking up at 3 a.m. to study for tests in college to avoid the distractions that come during the day. My own daughter was having serious issues in school until diagnosed as ADHD and put on a small dose of medication. Now she is an A student who just received the Presidential Academic Achievement Award. The medication didn’t make her smarter, it just allowed her to focus long enough to tap into her intellect.

Now try doing that with 15+ boys and 15+ girls in a classroom fulltime! I do agree that some schools are better than others, but I don’t think it is the teachers that make or break a school. It goes much higher up the ladder than that. It is important for parents to be involved in the education of their children, so hat’s off to mothers and fathers like Terri.

Where are the daddy’s in these situations? I think THAT may be one of the biggest issues of what’s “ailing our society”. Unfortunately, many males of the species are not fulfilling the requirements of parenthood beyond the conception portion of parenting. God knew what he was doing when he required both a mother and a father for breeding. The Daddy’s are there to have all the fun and the Mommy’s are there to make sure the kids survive it. In all sincerity, it is so sad that many of our children do not have a decent male role model in their lives.

I was voicing an opinion based on my experience. I was refering to very young children being diagnosed instantly with ADHD. Your point, you had to learn to cope. To me this is a parental role. Yours and your childs diagnosed was not the target of my post. I don't know you or anything to even try and say what i think on the matter. This was a general comment on my experience. What bothered me was during a time when I was a stepfather for 4 yrs. I watched a little girls spirit stripped from her as this was her diagnosis, of which I could see no basis for the decision to treat an illness which was not apparent to me. She is 8 now and I still get the privilage of a hug every weekday. My own daughter who is 5 now is in her Fathers custody since she was 1, I have raised her as a single Father for 4 years now, there was no step girlfriend or stepmom doing the parenting, only me and my daughter. I spent my lifes savings to gain custody in a court which is biased towards Mothers. I would do it again tomorrow. So in my world as a divorced Father I am right beside my Daughter and for the duration.

[mountain mama]

I was voicing an opinion based on my experience. I was refering to very young children being diagnosed instantly with ADHD. Your point, you had to learn to cope. To me this is a parental role. Yours and your childs diagnosed was not the target of my post. I don't know you or anything to even try and say what i think on the matter. This was a general comment on my experience. What bothered me was during a time when I was a stepfather for 4 yrs. I watched a little girls spirit stripped from her as this was her diagnosis, of which I could see no basis for the decision to treat an illness which was not apparent to me. She is 8 now and I still get the privilage of a hug every weekday. My own daughter who is 5 now is in her Fathers custody since she was 1, I have raised her as a single Father for 4 years now, there was no step girlfriend or stepmom doing the parenting, only me and my daughter. I spent my lifes savings to gain custody in a court which is biased towards Mothers. I would do it again tomorrow. So in my world as a divorced Father I am right beside my Daughter and for the duration.
Good for you, COWBOYSURVIVAL. This world needs more standup father's such as yourself. However, you did make a blanket statement and therefore I treated it as such. You can never lump all people into one situation.

[mountain mama]

backing slowly away from the thread.

Methinks Chris is getting to know me better, day by day :D

[COWBOYSURVIVAL]

I apologize to you Mountain Momma. It was not meant to harm in any way. I have no experience with the correct diagnosis only one that was incorrect and was obvious to me an attempt at "easy parenting".

[Chris]

I wouldn't work for a district that didn't have a union. They protect good teachers from bad administration. I was once a whistle blower against a bad administrator and she tried to have me fired for it. If it weren't for the union, I wouldn't have been able to keep my profession.

I have seen far more bad administrators than teachers. Maybe you should start at the top and work your way down.

We have a hard enough time finding enough teachers with bachelor's degrees. How do you propose getting enough with masters? Furthermore, to pay more, would require more taxes.
If I had a choice to send my kid to a non-union school or a union school this will be an easy decision to me.

Teachers unions are destroying our education system. All they do is clamor for more funding, but we already spend at the upper end of western countries (and yet our kids score in the middle of the road). We are not spending wisely.

The problem with teachers unions is they put the union first, then the teachers, then the kids. The teachers they put first are the most senior teachers, it has nothing to do with skill or ability. It has to do with politics and whow as there first.

In school districts across the country teachers are paid to sit and do clerical work (or nothing, if their union contract mandates teachers not be used as secretaries, which many do) because they're unfit to teach but cannot be fired. This is the equivalent of the GM Job's Bank, and we all know how publicly popular that program was.

Numerous incompetent teachers cannot be fired even when they have such piss poor performance they are a laughing stock, among the kids they teach. I'm sure we can all think of a teacher we had like that. Mine was a highschool French teacher. She was so utterly clueless people would do open book cheating right in front of her. She treated her students like they were in the second grade. One of our assignments was watching Disney's beauty and the beast, she would play with puppets, and give out candy. She was the joke of the entire school. On the word of other teachers she couldn't be fired because on the union contract.

http://teachersunionexposed.com/
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/01/27/us/minnesota-s-teacher-of-the-year-is-laid-off-in-budget-crisis.html

I'm all for rewarding good teachers, but the unions suck. They fight any attempt at accountability, or smarter spending, and always claim we don't spend enough. And they protect incompetent teachers.

I would like to take the money paid to incompetent teachers and give it to the good ones. Pay teachers 80k -100k a year, require a masters degree (especially for highschool teachers). If taxes were higher, but I knew my kids were getting a quality education out of it, I would not mind. Too often though school districts use tax money to fund projects not for the students. New buildings (built by a friend's company I'm sure) and whatnot.

I also think the school year should be increased, academic standards toughened, and more segregation of the children based on ability (like other countries do). Someone who isn't going to go to college doesn't need to take English literature.

Someone else in this thread mentioned the other cost driver. Our ridiculous assertion that all kids regardless of ability need to go to the same school. Parents of mentally disabled children have a ridiculous need to feel their kid is normal and fight (with the teacher's union helping them, more kids == more teachers == more dues) to get their kid into normal school. We spend something like 20x more educating mentally disabled students than we do on genius students because of all the extra attention they require, often 1::1 staffing.

Not that we should lock all mentally disabled people up, but if they're only going to finger paint and need a full time caregiver they probably don't need to be in highschool. The kid doesn't know any different, only the parents seem to care. Instead of spending an arm and a leg for almost no benefit working on integrating them into our normal school system. Let them go to special schools that teach them things they need to know to their ability, it'll be much cheaper, and there won't be jackasses picking on the kids either.

[Chris]

What Mama said. The teacher union also protects me from litigation-happy parents. In this society, lawsuits are used as weapons. You don't have to be guilty or even in the wrong to get sued. If you have the money, the time, and a lawyer - then you can sue anyone. When you start dealing with disabled students, it gets even touchier. I've been threatened with all kinds of lawsuits that, thankfully, were just threats.

The first one that isn't a threat, though, would ruin my career and my finances because I don't make enough on my own to fight it. The school sure isn't going to allocate resources to fight it for me. My dues pay for representation and up to a couple million in liability. When your teenager breaks his arm doing something stupid that you told him not to do - it is one thing. If he does it while I'm the only duty teacher for 500+ students, then it becomes a lawsuit.
I'm sure you must be mistaken. In our legal system employees are almost never personally liable for actions undertaken during their work duties, it is the employer (ie the school district) who is liable and thus would have the liability.

But if you merely need insurance for legal defense, you can buy that you know. You don't need a union for it.

[LostOutrider]

While the employer may be named also in the suit, it still can be brought against an individual for accused negligence or any other individual situation they can think of (failure to adhere to an IEP, grading practices, you gave my baby a D because his color is different from yours, etc.) It won't be the employer placed on unpaid leave and have their contract not renewed for the next year - no matter what the eventual verdict is. It isn't what someone does, but what they are accused of doing that will ruin a career as a public servant.

Just for clarification, I do not belong to any of the national teacher's unions - mostly because I disagree with their political platforms and do not want my money going for that. Mine is a state-based organization that works toward bettering education. I am very pro-union, though, regardless of the profession if only because it takes money to have protection. Corporations can afford expensive lobbyists to push their agenda to protect them from having to play fair. So much is done to teachers by people with no clue at all what the job entails. So many laws and policies and mandates are decided by people who are pure ignorant of what it means to educate. Fix the need for unions and then we'll talk about abolishing them.

[Chris]

If you want education free from regulation and mandates and policies go to a private school (or some charter schools). Where they have the freedom to fire bad teachers, and design curriculums free from special interest meddling at the local, state, or federal level.

A private school is a business with a customer. They know that if they do not perform they will lose this customer. This forces them to perform to the best of their ability. They are forced to improve or perish, thus capitalism (the economic form evolution by natural selection) drives innovation and progress.

A public school is a far different beast. They don't really have a customer, the government or the tax payers? Not really, they don't have the freedom to move elsewhere (unless there is a voucher or school of choice program). They need the teachers union to function, so that is certainly an undue influence. Politicians, at state or local levels, will want to use school districts, often one of the biggest local employers and certainly a organization with a very large budget, to fund their own special interests.

In any place without a voucher program they've got a captive monopoly and no incentive to perform, and the unions, with their adversarial position to choice and voucher programs, work to keep it that way. If the union were really pro-education it would favor these programs, instead, because these programs can result in kids being taught by non-union teachers (the scandal!) they fight them.

I live in Lansing Michigan, ground zero for GM more or less. When the local news does a poll about the UAW, such as in the fall of 07 when they last went on strike, they don't get a majority of support. Even in this big time blue collar auto community, the UAW can't get a majority of people supporting them.

Society is turning against unions in a big way, and the teachers unions are in the crosshairs. The only ally they have are democratic politicians who rely on their big special interest campaign contributions, but the constituents of those politicians largely feel differently.

[mountain mama]

If you want education free from regulation and mandates and policies go to a private school (or some charter schools). Where they have the freedom to fire bad teachers, and design curriculums free from special interest meddling at the local, state, or federal level. Another point regarding private schools is the fact that they can choose to accept or reject any student they deem undesirable. No troublemakers, no low performing, learning disabled, or mentally limited children. With the cream of the crop to work with, no wonder they perform so well.


A private school is a business with a customer. They know that if they do not perform they will lose this customer. This forces them to perform to the best of their ability. They are forced to improve or perish, thus capitalism (the economic form evolution by natural selection) drives innovation and progress.

A public school is a far different beast. They don't really have a customer, the government or the tax payers? Not really, they don't have the freedom to move elsewhere (unless there is a voucher or school of choice program). They need the teachers union to function, so that is certainly an undue influence. Politicians, at state or local levels, will want to use school districts, often one of the biggest local employers and certainly a organization with a very large budget, to fund their own special interests.

In any place without a voucher program they've got a captive monopoly and no incentive to perform, and the unions, with their adversarial position to choice and voucher programs, work to keep it that way. If the union were really pro-education it would favor these programs, instead, because these programs can result in kids being taught by non-union teachers (the scandal!) they fight them. There is plenty of incentive for teachers to perform. Please read up on "no child left behind".



Society is turning against unions in a big way, and the teachers unions are in the crosshairs. The only ally they have are democratic politicians who rely on their big special interest campaign contributions, but the constituents of those politicians largely feel differently.I understand how difficult it must be for some of you who really don't know what goes on behind the scenes. I think this is a big portion of the problem with public education right here....no support for educators.

[mountain mama]

I'm sure you must be mistaken. In our legal system employees are almost never personally liable for actions undertaken during their work duties, it is the employer (ie the school district) who is liable and thus would have the liability.

But if you merely need insurance for legal defense, you can buy that you know. You don't need a union for it.I'm sure we are NOT mistaken. After all, we are the ones in this position, not someone surfing the web for fabricated evidence against us and our unions. Furthermore, our unions are the ones who provide insurance for our legal defense at a fraction of the cost of going another route.

And they wonder why they can't get enough good teachers. *hmph*

[Chris]

There is plenty of incentive for teachers to perform. Please read up on "no child left behind".

And the union position on that is? Oh ya... get rid of it.



I'm sure we are NOT mistaken. After all, we are the ones in this position, not someone surfing the web for fabricated evidence against us and our unions. Furthermore, our unions are the ones who provide insurance for our legal defense at a fraction of the cost of going another route.

Two things.

1. Unions protecting incompetent teachers is not a fabrication. Look at the termination rate for union teachers. No other job in the country has such job security, and it is far far lower than non-union teachers. You're telling me being in a union makes an individual a good teacher, there are no bad apples? Things like that and school districts paying teachers to sit in a room and do nothing because they suck so bad at teaching but cannot be fired are not fabrications.

2. The union sells you the insurance and the union tells you why you need it right? That is what we call a conflict of interest. It is like the AARP selling a product to seniors while convincing them that they need it (something they do all the time). The union wants your money. Union leadership doesn't care abour education (or cars, or anything) they care about two things. A. increasing membership rolls. B. getting more dues out of existing members.

The March of Dimes, a charity, was founded to combat Polio. They won. Did they pack up and go home? No, because despite it being a charity, it employed thousands of people within it's bureaucracy, for good money. They didn't want to lose their jobs, and so they changed. Birth defects, then premature babies, and now just babies. This isn't to say they don't do good things, but they do put their own existence and expansion ahead of what they do.

Lots of charities or non-profits are like that, and unions are the same. They might profess to have a higher purpose, but their highest purpose is always self preservation and expansion.

The head of the American Red Cross makes half a million dollars a year, and there are people under her making lots of cash too. They do lots of good things, no one would deny that, but they are in the business of self preservation first. The head of the Salvation Army makes about 14k a year. That is a big difference and goes to the motivation of the people working for the organization.



And they wonder why they can't get enough good teachers. *hmph*

Teachers need to be paid more in most school districts, its true.

But, teaching at a public unionized school is a situation whereby you are not rewarded for success, only seniority. This type of situation does not appeal to ambitious people. The people out there who will work hard for rewards will go to fields where hard work is rewarded, a field where the quality of your work and your own personal skill will be rewarded. Not where you can be the teacher of the year and be fired a week later because you didn't have seniority.

[mountain mama]

Chris, I just don't even know where to begin with you. I highly recommend you take some time and go volunteer so you can see firsthand what you are defaming. There are far fewer bad apples than you seem to believe. Of course there are some out there. Yes, the unions protect ALL of their teachers, the good and the bad. So are you going to complain about our legal system now too? Because, as you know, the criminals have rights too.
I consider myself to be an excellent teacher. I could provide you with glowing recommendations from other principals. Yet the one bad principal I blew the whistle on could have had my career ended in the blink of an eye had it not been for the union.
The very next year, a dear friend of mine was teaching when a boy reached under a desk and fondled a little girl without the teachers knowledge. The little girl went home and reported to mama, but never told the teacher or the principal what had happened. The teacher went through the exact same thing I did. She even went to trial, but because she was not a member of the union, she ended up having to pay all her own legal fees.

[Chris]

defame would be untrue, nothing I've posted is untrue. You even admit it. The union protects bad teachers.

There are federal whistleblower laws, you do not need a union to protect you from those.

You also seem to be operating under the assumption that there is no way to protect good teachers without also protecting bad teachers. That is baloney.

Finally, your criminal justice system analogy is rather poor. A better analogy would be bad teachers not to common criminals but to diplomats from foreign states who, due to their diplomatic status, can break our laws but be free from prosecution.

Furthermore, in your own specific circumstance, if you really are a good teacher, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, you could get fired from a school and still work (lots of schools out there). If the principal is a bad administrator eventually it will show and HE will be fired for firing all his good teachers. If he defames you (that'd be spreading reputation hurting falsehoods in a way that affects your income) you could sue him, you have protection from that under the law.

If you want a union to provide you with liability insurance, fine, whatever, you can buy that yourself, most home owners insurances provide some, but I don't have a problem with that.

The teachers unions do not stop at that though. They spend tons of money on political activities to push policies that are beneficial not to kids, but to the union. They create contracts that make it near impossible to fire incompetent teachers, and all told they are a parasite on the public education system.

As long as the teachers unions protect bad teachers, and continue to fight for the status quo of mediocre academics and no accountability, myself and most of the public will be against them.

In most areas the rate of firing of tenured (3 years experience, typically) teachers is 0.1% Meaning, one, out of a thousand, teachers on the job three years or more are fired.

I suppose you think that is a normal statistic, for any job? 99.9% of people who go on to be teachers are just that good?

[mountain mama]

You say I have protection under the law, but that comes with a price....a price that most teachers can not afford on a teacher's salary.

[LostOutrider]

Couple of things, Chris, because you've obviously been thinking on this a while. The first is that you refer to "the" union as if it were some giant boogieman organization of powerful slacker teachers running things. If you have a beef against a certain organization, name it outright. I've said before that I'm not a member of certain organizations because I disagree with their political views. If you're just painting a wide stripe against any and all unions, then I'm done with that discussion because there's no way to defend a concept against the undesirable actions of a percentage. If that is the rubric with which you support or attack professions (or organizations), then I would love to hear your take on the American soldier, police officer, or scoutmaster one day.

Also, I can't wrap my mind around where this pervasive belief originates that it is teachers - the absolute lowest level of authority or policy-making in the entire educational system - who are running, ruining, or razing the public school system. You toss around the term "bad teacher" as if there are clusters of them sitting in the lounge soaking up your tax dollars because they're too incompetent to teach children. Granted, I work in a state where teaching is not a tenured profession . . . and is very much a right-to-work state . . . so maybe we're not infested with this phenomenon . . . but in a decade of working in education I have never seen what you describe. I've seen some poor teachers, of course. They either haven't lasted long - or they improved through training and support because of the high standards my district and my building maintain. I wonder how some of these bad teachers are measured as bad? Is it fair to compare my teaching job in a well funded district with a very high number of parents with advanced degrees and white-collar jobs to, oh, that of a teacher in a Mississippi Delta mill town? Am I good and is she bad? My standardized test scores will blow hers out of the water every time. (Look at KIPP schools and you'll see a marvelous exception to this rule. But also look at the commitments that non-teachers adhere to when they put their children in those schools.)

Editing to add this: I think that you miss a very serious point when it comes to firing bad teachers. It is a rapidly shrinking profession with an astonishing number of teachers dropping out voluntarily within the first three years. Because public education is compulsory here, then you have to put a teacher in front of those children. Folks aren't exactly lining up to do this job - God knows why. Perhaps it isn't the union's fault here, but simple math. If a school has X students, the law mandates that they have X/30 teachers. Fire all the teachers you describe as bad and . . . well . . . then what do you do? You haven't attracted any good folks in. Can't close the doors, these kids have to go to school somewhere. Look at impoverished areas of the South and to inner-city schools for this wonderful problem. Again, fix the circumstances that lead to ineffective teachers being kept and you'll solve the problem.

[FVR]

I'm gonna jump in here.

I tell ya who is ruining the public schools.....it's not the unions, it's not the teachers, it's not the administration, and it's not the government.

It is the American citizen who expects a gov. facility to teach and provide daycare for their children.

Both myself and my wife spent time as teachers. I taught HS acc. 1&2 and my wife taught a variety of class'. It's the parents, point blank that is where the blame comes in.

I send my two 6yr olds to public goverment schools. Some teachers are good, some are not worth the paper their degree is printed on. But as parents, it's our responsibility to TAKE ACTION!

My daughter is special needs, vision along with neurological and CP. My son is soon to be special needs but on the opposite side of the spectrum. He's too da mn smart. He is in K teaching the others geometry and doing second grade math.

So that means, we spend alot, I mean alot of time at the school. We work our way up to the board of education if needed.

My wife schedules her time to be at school, I also schedule my time to be there. It's hard, it's real freaking hard, time consuming, and very very stressful. But for our kids education, it's worth it.

My wife and I also believe that learning is not just designated to school hours. It's a 24/7 thing. We talk to our kids about what they learn everyday. If we don't agree, we tell them and why. This years 1st grade teacher was a deep breather tree hugging type. We disagreed on more than a few things.

As far as unions, guess everyone needs a scapegoat. Personally, I don't like the unskilled unions, skilled trades are a complete diff. story. I consider teacher unions as unskilled.

The unions however are not the reason the schools are failing. The US Government makes it real easy to allow Joe Public to blame the gov. rather than making American citizens take responsiblity for themselves and their families.

As far as the single parent thing, I don't like it. I lived it. But, sometimes it can not be helped. So you do the best you can and hope and pray that it is enough.

[mountain mama]

:clap: FVR

[mcfd45]

Here is another beef I have. How about we actually teach curriculum that is useful? On shop class put down the birdhouses and balsa bridges and teach them how to hang a door, change a tire? Stop giving 4 years of high school english and make it manditory to take a technical school for half of the day? I went to tech school for the first half of school my junior and senior years. I learned to fix boat, A good beginning after high school. That is what I think our kids need is more prep for jobs.

[FVR]

School, public school is there to teach the basics. Reading, writing, and arithmatic. Hanging doors, changing tires, etc. is something that Dad needs to be teaching. Tech. schools are okay if that is the direction you want your children to go.

Tech school is not going to do much for those who want or have the yearning for many of the arts, political, educational paths.

Not everyone needs to be the blue collar worker. Growing up and working construction since I was 8yrs old, then grad. to the local steel mill, I strived and worked hard after the USMC to shed that, what I considered the "blue collar mentality."

As I aged, things that I tried to push away, I now embrace. Working with my hands, my back and arm muscles, not just my brain is who I am. The offices were torture, the office politics were horrible. I now understand what it is to be fullfilled. Yeh, I know, I won't be able to do this for the rest of my life.........I may eventually have to venture back into the office. Or will I?


I have come to the conclusion that there is a balance. If you have read my posts before, I am a strong believer in balance. You can not have life without it.

Anyway, what's wrong with balsa bridges and birdhouses? May inspire the engineer in someone. He can design it and the tech. school grad can build it.

Balance. You need both.

[LostOutrider]

Stop giving 4 years of high school english and make it manditory to take a technical school for half of the day?

I don't agree with this specific sentiment, but I do feel that we start school too late and extend it too long. Public school should begin at 3 yrs old and end when they are 16. At that point, since we probably aren't ready to make them legally adults at that point - provide 2 yrs of job-specific training /or/ the general ed requirements for an undergraduate degree.

Put these jokers out in the workforce early!

I do think the 4 yrs of high school English should focus less on teaching a dried canon of literature and more on being literate. That shift in thinking is at the core of my life's work in education.

Oh, and FVR, all of that, yes.

[mountain mama]

Incidentally, here in Idaho our kids have options of going to specific Academies in High School. There is the Medical Arts Academy which caters to students pursuing a health career. In fact, I think they can have a nursing license by the time they finish high school. Or, there is the Technical Charter school, where the students can choose between networking, programming/web development, media arts, or electronics/pre-engineering. Then, there is the REnaissance High School that focuses on International Studies, Law and Leadership, Research and Medical Studies. Pretty much there is something for everyone (except a good arts magnet).

[Rick]

I made my daughter take a home economics and a building trades class one year (electrical, woodworking, automotive) and both my boys had to take the same. None of them were very happy with me at the time but all three know how to get things done, now.

[mountain mama]

I had to take auto mechanics before Daddy would let me get my driver's license. Then I had to prove I could drive a stick shift and change a tire on my own before I was allowed to actually drive. Little does my Daddy understand that we women rarely have to rely on our own means. Just a little bat of the eyelashes and 4 men would pull over to change my tire.

[mountain mama]

or....maybe he did understand.

[Rick]

That was another REALLY disliked rule of mine. Each of the kids had to buy a standard transmission as their first car. Today, they can drive anything. I was such a monster.

[Ken]

So are you going to complain about our legal system now too?

What??? Hasn't my b*tchin' been enough for you? :innocent:


She even went to trial, but because she was not a member of the union, she ended up having to pay all her own legal fees.

There's something terribly wrong there. In Mass, all public employees are indemnified against jury awards in such cases unless they themselves committed an intentional violation of someone's civil rights. Lawyers are provided, because it's the city or town that ends up paying any jury award that may come about.

However, municipal employees do pay for their own counsel if they have been charged with a criminal act. But that was not the case in the example you cited.

[mountain mama]

I think I used the wrong wording. Not exactly trial, but hearing. My bad. They had a hearing to determine whether or not she would be able to continue teaching. Lawyers were involved. She had to pay for her own counsel.

When you go to college and receive a bachelor's degree in education, it isn't like you can just one day pack it all in and say "hmmmmm I think I will be a banker now", or if that decision is made for you, then you are basically screwed. Your degree only works towards teaching, want to do anything else and you have to go back to college. Four years of your life and a lot of hard work down the drain. Those of us who choose teaching for a career value our positions.

[Ken]

Last year, I was retained by a teacher for representation at a "Step 3" grievance hearing in executive session before a local school committee. A representative (non-lawyer) from the union was also present. The school committee refused to allow to participate because I was retained by the individual teacher and not by the union. (I offered to represent the union for free, but that would have required a lengthy union approval process.)

I told the school committee that I understood their position, and asked when they would all be available to attend depositions in my office, because I was going to sue them all the next morning. I waited outside the hearing room. Twenty minutes later, my client came out of the hearing room - he had won.

[Chris]

What??? Hasn't my b*tchin' been enough for you? :innocent:



There's something terribly wrong there. In Mass, all public employees are indemnified against jury awards in such cases unless they themselves committed an intentional violation of someone's civil rights. Lawyers are provided, because it's the city or town that ends up paying any jury award that may come about.

However, municipal employees do pay for their own counsel if they have been charged with a criminal act. But that was not the case in the example you cited.
Exactly, most states are like that.



I think I used the wrong wording. Not exactly trial, but hearing. My bad. They had a hearing to determine whether or not she would be able to continue teaching. Lawyers were involved. She had to pay for her own counsel.

When you go to college and receive a bachelor's degree in education, it isn't like you can just one day pack it all in and say "hmmmmm I think I will be a banker now", or if that decision is made for you, then you are basically screwed. Your degree only works towards teaching, want to do anything else and you have to go back to college. Four years of your life and a lot of hard work down the drain. Those of us who choose teaching for a career value our positions.

There is more than one district to teach in.

[Chris]

Couple of things, Chris, because you've obviously been thinking on this a while. The first is that you refer to "the" union as if it were some giant boogieman organization of powerful slacker teachers running things. If you have a beef against a certain organization, name it outright. I've said before that I'm not a member of certain organizations because I disagree with their political views. If you're just painting a wide stripe against any and all unions, then I'm done with that discussion because there's no way to defend a concept against the undesirable actions of a percentage. If that is the rubric with which you support or attack professions (or organizations), then I would love to hear your take on the American soldier, police officer, or scoutmaster one day.

Also, I can't wrap my mind around where this pervasive belief originates that it is teachers - the absolute lowest level of authority or policy-making in the entire educational system - who are running, ruining, or razing the public school system. You toss around the term "bad teacher" as if there are clusters of them sitting in the lounge soaking up your tax dollars because they're too incompetent to teach children. Granted, I work in a state where teaching is not a tenured profession . . . and is very much a right-to-work state . . . so maybe we're not infested with this phenomenon . . . but in a decade of working in education I have never seen what you describe. I've seen some poor teachers, of course. They either haven't lasted long - or they improved through training and support because of the high standards my district and my building maintain. I wonder how some of these bad teachers are measured as bad? Is it fair to compare my teaching job in a well funded district with a very high number of parents with advanced degrees and white-collar jobs to, oh, that of a teacher in a Mississippi Delta mill town? Am I good and is she bad? My standardized test scores will blow hers out of the water every time. (Look at KIPP schools and you'll see a marvelous exception to this rule. But also look at the commitments that non-teachers adhere to when they put their children in those schools.)

Editing to add this: I think that you miss a very serious point when it comes to firing bad teachers. It is a rapidly shrinking profession with an astonishing number of teachers dropping out voluntarily within the first three years. Because public education is compulsory here, then you have to put a teacher in front of those children. Folks aren't exactly lining up to do this job - God knows why. Perhaps it isn't the union's fault here, but simple math. If a school has X students, the law mandates that they have X/30 teachers. Fire all the teachers you describe as bad and . . . well . . . then what do you do? You haven't attracted any good folks in. Can't close the doors, these kids have to go to school somewhere. Look at impoverished areas of the South and to inner-city schools for this wonderful problem. Again, fix the circumstances that lead to ineffective teachers being kept and you'll solve the problem.
It isn't the teachers, it is the teacher unions that are razing the public education system.

Do you know what the largest educational lobby is in the country? The teacher unions. Do you know which organizations spends the most lobbying politicians on education? The teacher unions. Do you know which special interest group has the most input in designing education laws (at least, when Democrats are in power), again, the teacher unions. Saying the union doesn't matter to education is like saying the UAW has had nothing to do with the various auto industry decisions the Obama administration has made.

And again, when you say teaching is a shrinking profession so you cannot afford to fire bad teachers. I say that maybe it is a shrinking profession because people don't want to enter a profession where the quality of their work is meaningless and they'll get fired no matter how hard they work if they're the low rung on the totem pole. No young person is attracted to a profession where seniority is the only chip you have to play.

Plus, and again I'm not making this up, there are school districts out there who pay teachers to not teach because they cannot be fired but are unfit for student contact. So firing those teachers will not result in larger class sizes, they're already not teaching.

I'm also not making up the firing rate of 1 in a thousand. Nor all the other examples I've stated of school districts being forced to employee incompetent teachers.

I also know people who have tried to enter the teaching job. Its true, some young people want to be teachers, but because of last-hire-first-fire union contracts, and entrenched seniority, they have a hard time finding jobs. Every last person who has entered the teaching profession whom I know has told me at one time or another how hard it is to find a job. Some of these people might be excellent teachers, but school districts cannot fire a older tenured teacher who has poor job performance to hire one of these enthusiastic new teachers because of union contracts.

Maybe things are better in your state. They aren't here in Michigan though.

Alot of you are blaming the parents, and I guess "everyone needs a scapegoat" though I don't appreciate the inference that if I use the union as a "scapegoat" I am a bad parent. My son is 10 days old, and I plan to be extremely involved in his education. I would even homeschool him if not for the necessary social skills school provides. My personality is such that I educate everyone around me constantly (sometime to their annoyance) pointing out historical facts, why such and such is so, scientific things, etc. Ya, I'm that guy. My kids are going to either love it or hate it, but they're getting exposed to a fountain of knowledge.

But I digress, parents (or lack thereof) are also a problem. That doesn't mean bad teachers aren't also a problem. They are not mutually exclusive. There can be both bad teachers and bad parents, and bad union contracts that protect bad teachers, and bad unions that fight any accountability or choice programs that could result in more children being taught by non-union teachers.



certain organization, name it outright. I've said before that I'm not a member of certain organizations because I disagree with their political views. If you're just painting a wide stripe against any and all unions, then I'm done with that discussion because there's no way to defend a concept against the undesirable actions of a percentage. If that is the rubric with which you support or attack professions (or organizations), then I would love to hear your take on the American soldier, police officer, or scoutmaster one day.


Most unions, not all. A union is a labor monopoly or cartel. They would be illegal in our system of government if not for a specific exclusion, as such, the union is a legal monopoly. Monopolies are dangerous, and otherwise normally illegal, because they almost always result in abuse and corruption. Unions are not immune to these things. Unions were originally formed to fight for workplace safety and reasonable working conditions, these things have now been met and largely are automatic thanks to state and federal safety regulations.

My main problem with most unions is their discrimination, coercion, violence, participation in politics to the end of self benefit, generally higher up corruption (frequently pay to play scams, embezzlement, kickbacks). In non-right-to-work states workers are forced to join a union to work in certain fields. This is not right, this is not freedom, this is not the American way. When unions try to form there is often coercion and violence against people who are anti-union. This doesn't mean a beating with a baseball bat (though, it happens), it could be slashed tires or other acts of property violence. My uncle had death threats from the teamsters once when he was a manager of a moving company and wanted to use non-union drivers. On the topic of politics, though the teacher unions are a good example, the best is the California State Correctional Officers Union. They are more or less the most powerful political group in the state. They have for years lobbied, not for better working conditions, more pay, better benefits, but for harsher sentences for criminals. They have lobbied to make the California Penal Code very harsh, thus then requiring more prisons, and more guards, and more union dues paid by those guards. Clever huh? Nevermind that people might have a harder sentence than they deserve, nevermind that California now spends way too much on corrections and the state is bankrupt, the union gets more dues-paying members.


... continued..

[Chris]

It is things like that, and things like teachers unions opposing non-union charter schools, vouchers, and school of choice programs. Programs where a parent, if they do not have faith in a school, can take their business (their kid) elsewhere like any other consumer. Any other industry, business, or profession when faced with such an issue in a free marketplace would be forced to improve, to get better, to innovate. But a monopoly can just use their political clout to squash those rules. Teacher's unions would rather squash parental choice and school competition (competition breeds improvement) than force their members to improve.

Like take the DC voucher program.



The president of the National Education Association, the nation's largest teachers union, recently called the voucher program "an ongoing threat to public education in the District of Columbia" and urged Obama to oppose any effort to extend the program. That's not really the language of moderation.


RANDI WEINGARTEN[/U] President, American Federation of Teachers]
It's true that we have a problem with the voucher program. But our beef is with the well-funded foundations that pressured the president to use public money for private vouchers. These foundations easily could have helped the children already participating in this program. Instead, they used these children, who are blameless, as pawns in an ideological battle.



ANDREW J. COULSON[/U] Director of the Cato Institute's Center for Educational Freedom and author of the study "Markets vs. Monopolies in Education: A Global Review of the Evidence" ]
President Obama's decision isn't much of a compromise. NEA President Dennis Van Roekel wrote to congressional Democrats demanding that they kill the D.C. voucher program, and they complied. Obama has merely tried to alter the manner of destruction -- choosing attrition over summary execution.
During the campaign, Obama said that if vouchers worked he would support them. The Education Department recently revealed that students who joined the voucher program in 2004 are now more than two school years ahead of their public school peers in reading.
In his initial budget, Obama declared that when it comes to education, we cannot waste dollars on programs that are inefficient. Average tuition at the voucher schools is $6,620, while the District is spending $26,555 per pupil this year on K-12 education.
So contrary to his promises, the president has sacrificed a program he knows to be efficient and successful in order to appease the public school employee unions. If he will do this for the NEA, he will do anything.
America finally has an "education president," and his name is Dennis Van Roekel.



MICHAEL J. PETRILLI[/U] Vice president for national programs and policy at the nonpartisan Thomas B. Fordham Institute ]
The typically fleet-footed Obama administration has made a series of missteps with the D.C. voucher program. First it believed that the issue was a sideshow, hardly important next to its larger efforts to reform the nation's schools through the stimulus legislation. But voucher advocates and opponents attach symbolic importance to the program, in part because it is in the nation's capital. Now the administration is bogged down in a quagmire that is attracting a lot of negative media attention.
Its second mistake was to ignore the recent federal evaluation of the program, which found it to be boosting participants' reading skills. Such strong findings are rare in rigorous social science research, and few of the president's other pet issues (including worthy ones such as charter schools and merit pay for teachers) have similar evidence of effectiveness. Yet his team played down the findings rather than seizing a chance to live up to its lofty rhetoric about supporting programs that work.
Obama strives to be seen as a "good government" type, above petty politics and ideology. But to earn that label, he would need to admit that the evidence in support of vouchers is compelling, and that the program should thus continue indefinitely. In trying to split the baby, he shows himself to be a rather typical politician, looking for the most palatable solution rather than the one that is most just.



ANTHONY A. WILLIAMS[/U] Former mayor of the District ]
President Obama is a visionary with an agenda of change. Education is among his top priorities. But he also strikes me as a very pragmatic leader. He understands that people want results. So you might think that a program requested by local leadership that gives low-income parents a choice to educate their children would be the kind of pragmatic innovation the president would support. Especially since independent reports show that the children who receive scholarships have higher math and reading scores, and that their parents are highly supportive. This program has a long waiting list.
Still, partisan and special-interest politics carried the day. Without new scholarships, unless Congress overrules the president's decision, the program will die. This is not an abstract argument; the consequences are very real for the families involved, and they affect the success of our children, which is vital to our economic future.
Consider a D.C. family lucky enough to have received a scholarship. Their child is doing well and happy at school. That child's younger brother or sister won't have that same opportunity or school choice. Why should President Obama, Education Secretary Arne Duncan and a few members of Congress from other cities around the country get to tell that younger sibling no? Why does the teachers unions' preference take precedence over what parents want?
I thought we wanted people working for change to move our country forward. What is needed is courage to stand up for our kids.



JOSEPH E. ROBERT JR.[/U] Chairman and CEO, J.E. Robert Cos. and board member of D.C. Children First ]
Compromise is a wonderful feature of our system of governing. Unfortunately, President Obama's decision to curtail the D.C. scholarship program is nothing but political capitulation.
Obama and Education Secretary Arne Duncan know the program is working -- they wouldn't keep children in a program that's failing, would they? In fact, independent studies report on the gains children in the program have made. The students like it and so do their parents. I'm not sure why politicians think they can make good decisions for their own kids but low-income parents are somehow incapable of making the right judgments for their kids.
Beyond that hypocrisy lies a sad reality: By deciding to allow no future scholarships, Obama and Duncan have protected the two scholarship kids who go to Sidwell Friends, avoiding a public relations disaster. But for the independent schools serving the poor in our inner city, the lack of scholarships for new students means they will eventually be forced to close.
The president and his education secretary have simply decided to capitulate to the politically powerful teachers union and the members of Congress who carry their water by effectively killing the program. They wanted peace with the union, even at the cost of the families and children who depend on scholarships. But D.C. kids deserve these Opportunity Scholarships. It is wrong for our leaders to pretend they saved a program they just, in fact, undermined. And it's immoral to take it away.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/28/education/28voucher.html
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/local/Senate-vote-means-end-of-school-voucher-program-41060732.html
http://www.reason.com/blog/show/133298.html
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/04/03/federal-report-dc-school-voucher-program-improves-reading-scores/
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2009/05/06/obama_proposes_extending_dc_vo.html
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10254
http://www.ednews.org/articles/with-critics-quiet-hearing-praises-dc-school-voucher-program.html


Ya, I've got a problem with an organization like that.

Under our system of law a monopoly becomes abusive and risks legal action (being broken up or fined by the Department of Justice) when it engages in anticompetitive practices. If teachers unions were NOT exempt from our monopoly laws they would have run afoul of that law, long ago, most unions would have. A group with a monopoly that fights to prevent competition in their industry is the exact definition of an abusive monopoly and exactly fits the statute.

I also have as equal a problem with corporations that have abusive monopolies (microsoft prior to the rise of Google, phone companies, etc). Abusive monopolies == bad.

[LostOutrider]

I think I'm going to have to cry uncle on this one before I'm squished under a mountain of text. I am still very much for the local organization to which I belong - and who is there to fight for me if I ever need someone with a briefcase and a considerably higher per-diem than mine. $30/month is a small price to pay for the type of protection and representation they provide.

Though, I'm not sure we're disagreeing on most points. My money does not support any of the national teacher unions, as I've said before, because I disagree with much of their politics. The stance on firing "bad" teachers is a good example . . . as long as the criteria is fair and takes into account the circumstances completely beyond teacher control. Don't shove 30 hungry, struggling, at-risk teenagers who don't speak English as a first language into my class, expect me to supply them out of my own pocket, and then fire me for being a bad teacher when they don't all score perfect on the ACT.

[FVR]

Since I put in my two cents, here is another buck two fifty.

Chris, my intent was not to insult you as a parent.

I do however stand by what I've put in print. I think the big problem are the parents and if there were more parent involvement then the unions would be weakend drastically.

For example, we could not get the teachers to abide by the IEP for my daughter. We spoke with the special ed. dept. to no avail. We spoke to the teachers with no avail. Well, then we made an appoint. with the super. of the board of education. Followed up the meeting with a written request, when we did not hear anything for another two weeks we started calling and called another appointment with the super., instructing him that if we could not resolve this, attorneys and or state reps. will be notified.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...............all of a sudden my daughter's IEP is getting done, everything to the T.

Imagine if a majority of the parents took this much of an interest and took action on piss poor teachers in their schools?

Again, we Americans have fallen victim to the fed. gov. who has brain washed us into thinking that we Americans can't fight city hall. Unfortunately, it's hard to fight the fed. when they have you brainwashed into thinking you need them to survive.

I am by no means a supporter of the teachers unions. I see too many crappy teachers who have tenor and basically do as they please. The school administration can't touch them and they know it. And yes, new teacher get the crappy end of the stick. Surprisingly because the new meat is the motivation and change that may do some good.


We just had the push for the CRCT tests in our school. I would never have imagined that first graders would be put under so much pressure. Pressure for what??? The freak'n test is a test for the schools to see if they are meeting their goals.

Todays teachers, along with the administration teach to the test, depending on what test is required. They teach to the slowest person in the class, they don't try to even identify the special needs children as that's extra teachers or assistants that may be needed.

Funny thing, when a child is identified as special needs, the school gets a certain amount of money from the gov. yet that money is not regulated to go to special needs programs. So, here we are in the loop again, the money vanishes, the students that need the extra instruction do not get it and in turn it holds the rest of the class back.


I am not big on home schooling as I once was. With a little research from a few retired old friends, I found out that many home schooled children although they are super smart lack social skills. Those that I questioned all said the same thing, that the home schooled students when attending a public or private school afterwards, had problems socializing with others, had problems with competition, and major problems in day to day interactions with others who were just not nice people.

There is more to education than what is covered in the general curriculum.

[Ken]

Followed up the meeting with a written request, when we did not hear anything for another two weeks we started calling and called another appointment with the super., instructing him that if we could not resolve this, attorneys and or state reps. will be notified.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...............all of a sudden my daughter's IEP is getting done, everything to the T.

Now THAT's a knife.........

[mountain mama]

For example, we could not get the teachers to abide by the IEP for my daughter. We spoke with the special ed. dept. to no avail. We spoke to the teachers with no avail. Well, then we made an appoint. with the super. of the board of education. Followed up the meeting with a written request, when we did not hear anything for another two weeks we started calling and called another appointment with the super., instructing him that if we could not resolve this, attorneys and or state reps. will be notified.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...............all of a sudden my daughter's IEP is getting done, everything to the T. Good for you! This is exactly what is needed of parents. And, it isn't the teachers who don't want to follow the IEP, it is generally told to us what we are required to do by the administration. Part of my whistle blowing was when I was working as special ed. teacher and forgot who I was working for. I was under the assumption that my loyalty lie with the children. *scoffs* It was quickly made evident that I was to adhere to whatever the principal wanted, even though it went directly against IDEA (special education law). First, she prevented one of my inclusion students from joining his class on a field trip, simply because he was "special ed". Then, she tried to throw a highly autistic student (with a history of running) into my portable classroom out in a field with no teacher's assistant and oh, no IEP. When I put my foot down and told her no is when she started trying to intimidate me, that's when I had to report her.


Imagine if a majority of the parents took this much of an interest and took action on piss poor teachers in their schools? Problem is who determines what makes a "piss poor teacher"? And what if it isn't the teacher that is the problem, but the administration?


Todays teachers, along with the administration teach to the test, depending on what test is required. They teach to the slowest person in the class, they don't try to even identify the special needs children as that's extra teachers or assistants that may be needed.This is what we are required to do.


Funny thing, when a child is identified as special needs, the school gets a certain amount of money from the gov. yet that money is not regulated to go to special needs programs. So, here we are in the loop again, the money vanishes, the students that need the extra instruction do not get it and in turn it holds the rest of the class back.Actually, the money is allocated to special education. The problem is that it takes a LOT to have a student meet requirements for special education. And, generally if a parent rejects the notion, that is the end of it right then and there.


There is more to education than what is covered in the general curriculum.amen

[Chris]

I think I'm going to have to cry uncle on this one before I'm squished under a mountain of text. I am still very much for the local organization to which I belong - and who is there to fight for me if I ever need someone with a briefcase and a considerably higher per-diem than mine. $30/month is a small price to pay for the type of protection and representation they provide.

Though, I'm not sure we're disagreeing on most points. My money does not support any of the national teacher unions, as I've said before, because I disagree with much of their politics. The stance on firing "bad" teachers is a good example . . . as long as the criteria is fair and takes into account the circumstances completely beyond teacher control. Don't shove 30 hungry, struggling, at-risk teenagers who don't speak English as a first language into my class, expect me to supply them out of my own pocket, and then fire me for being a bad teacher when they don't all score perfect on the ACT.
Oh no, test scores don't define a bad teacher. Well, I mean, it is a symptom. For one, you can't blame a 12th grade teacher if his kids are ignorant because 11 other teachers have had them first. It is a symptom of our problemic system, but not of any individual teacher.

A bad teacher, an incompetent one, is not one where the students merely do poorly. In fact, the incompetent teacher at my high school, gave out mostly As. She was a bad teacher because she was naive, irresponsible, treated students like preschoolers, and didn't teach the material in the least. Entering my highschool, which taught 2 foreign languages (French and Spanish), each with a beginning and an advanced course, my plan was to do both. After one year of this crazy lady's French class I decided to just learn Spanish. It was a glorified study hall with free candy and cartoons.

She was a very nice lady, and should have taught elementary school. She was utterly incompetent as a highschool French teacher.

Other incompetents are just lazy, phoning it in. Not trying nor caring. Or, worse, they're not incompetent so much as corrupt, morally or otherwise. And even then, don't get fired.

[bulrush]

4. If you don't think my ability is proven every day, then you have never been singularly responsible for maintaining the attention of 25 unmotivated teenagers at 2:30 in May - on a schedule designed for an agricultural society - using methods, materials, and technology designed to train an industrial society - meant to train children raised in a purely technological/informational society. If that isn't enough, then every April my ability & worth is measured by the performance of the same teenagers on a week-long standardized test that has absolutely no consequence for the child if he/she simply decides they're not in the mood to do well that day.

Most teachers in public schools have 6 classes of 25-30 students each. That's 150-180 students they manage daily, although some might be duplicate students.

[bulrush]

I worked at a school for 3 years in Administration. Basically I was tech support. I also helped teachers make graphs for North Central Association (basically these graphs showed student performance in various ways), helped with student counts (reported to the state, which determined state funding to the district), fixed computers, etc.

I saw good and bad teachers. Most teachers did their job just fine. I worked at a vocational center where you did not see a lot of "book smart" kids. There was also a higher portion of various "impaired" kids. However, the news tends to highlight just the bad teachers, so that's what you remember.

That particular school had trouble maker kids, and when the kids acted up, the admins came down firmly. I know, I designed the offense database and reports. And I did summary graphs at the end of every year from this database.

This was a poor rural school district where it was common for kids to drop out of school to work on the farm.

In a rich district, where someone I know works, the admins did not come down so hard when the kids did something wrong. Because the parents were rich, the admins did not want to invite a parental lawsuit from the slightest provocation.

I think a leading indicator of student success, in a poor or rich district, is PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT. Parents who get involved leads, much more often, to a successful student with fewer behavioral problems. In single mother households, the kids have a higher chance of acting out in school IF the mother is not as involved. My mom was a single (divorced) mom, very involved with me, and I turned out pretty good.

[Rick]

I turned out pretty good.

Are you sure all the votes are in? (just joking....)

[mountain mama]

I think Bulrush has a point. Parental involvement is a major factor in the success of a student. After all, a teacher is generally only involved for less than a year of a child's life, but a parent has 18 years to impact a child. I personally think that people should be licensed in order to become parents. There are so many out there that are unfit and yet the teachers are expected to clean up their messes.

[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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[yellowcab]

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manualchoke (http://manualchoke.ru)medinfobooks (http://medinfobooks.ru)mp3lists (http://mp3lists.ru)nameresolution (http://nameresolution.ru)naphtheneseries (http://naphtheneseries.ru)narrowmouthed (http://narrowmouthed.ru)nationalcensus (http://nationalcensus.ru)naturalfunctor (http://naturalfunctor.ru)navelseed (http://navelseed.ru)neatplaster (http://neatplaster.ru)necroticcaries (http://necroticcaries.ru)negativefibration (http://negativefibration.ru)neighbouringrights (http://neighbouringrights.ru)objectmodule (http://objectmodule.ru)observationballoon (http://observationballoon.ru)
obstructivepatent (http://obstructivepatent.ru)oceanmining (http://oceanmining.ru)octupolephonon (http://octupolephonon.ru)offlinesystem (http://offlinesystem.ru)offsetholder (http://offsetholder.ru)olibanumresinoid (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)onesticket (http://onesticket.ru)packedspheres (http://packedspheres.ru)pagingterminal (http://pagingterminal.ru)palatinebones (http://palatinebones.ru)palmberry (http://palmberry.ru)papercoating (http://papercoating.ru)paraconvexgroup (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)parasolmonoplane (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)parkingbrake (http://parkingbrake.ru)
partfamily (http://partfamily.ru)partialmajorant (http://partialmajorant.ru)quadrupleworm (http://quadrupleworm.ru)qualitybooster (http://qualitybooster.ru)quasimoney (http://quasimoney.ru)quenchedspark (http://quenchedspark.ru)quodrecuperet (http://quodrecuperet.ru)rabbetledge (http://rabbetledge.ru)radialchaser (http://radialchaser.ru)radiationestimator (http://radiationestimator.ru)railwaybridge (http://railwaybridge.ru)randomcoloration (http://randomcoloration.ru)rapidgrowth (http://rapidgrowth.ru)rattlesnakemaster (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)reachthroughregion (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
readingmagnifier (http://readingmagnifier.ru)rearchain (http://rearchain.ru)recessioncone (http://recessioncone.ru)recordedassignment (http://recordedassignment.ru)rectifiersubstation (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)redemptionvalue (http://redemptionvalue.ru)reducingflange (http://reducingflange.ru)referenceantigen (http://referenceantigen.ru)regeneratedprotein (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)reinvestmentplan (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)safedrilling (http://safedrilling.ru)sagprofile (http://sagprofile.ru)salestypelease (http://salestypelease.ru)samplinginterval (http://samplinginterval.ru)satellitehydrology (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
scarcecommodity (http://scarcecommodity.ru)scrapermat (http://scrapermat.ru)screwingunit (http://screwingunit.ru)seawaterpump (http://seawaterpump.ru)secondaryblock (http://secondaryblock.ru)secularclergy (http://secularclergy.ru)seismicefficiency (http://seismicefficiency.ru)selectivediffuser (http://selectivediffuser.ru)semiasphalticflux (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)semifinishmachining (http://semifinishmachining.ru)spicetrade (http://spicetrade.ru)spysale (http://spysale.ru)stungun (http://stungun.ru)tacticaldiameter (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)tailstockcenter (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
tamecurve (http://tamecurve.ru)tapecorrection (http://tapecorrection.ru)tappingchuck (http://tappingchuck.ru)taskreasoning (http://taskreasoning.ru)technicalgrade (http://technicalgrade.ru)telangiectaticlipoma (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)telescopicdamper (http://telescopicdamper.ru)temperateclimate (http://temperateclimate.ru)temperedmeasure (http://temperedmeasure.ru)tenementbuilding (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)ultramaficrock (http://ultramaficrock.ru)ultraviolettesting (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)

[yellowcab]

геро (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/2351)326.5 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/183)Bett (http://eyesvision.ru/better-eyesight-magazine-better-eyesight-1920-02)refl (http://eyesvisions.com/physics/8)Ð*Ñ‹Ñ‚Ñ… (http://factoringfee.ru/t/855810)Noki (http://filmzones.ru/t/391509)зачи (http://gadwall.ru/t/487657)Евдо (http://gaffertape.ru/t/813887)Стел (http://gageboard.ru/t/836177)изуч (http://gagrule.ru/t/395888)Кели (http://gallduct.ru/t/823372)Ð�рти (http://galvanometric.ru/t/440545)EXPE (http://gangforeman.ru/t/354411)ПолÑ� (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/831244)Полу (http://garbagechute.ru/t/1082375)
Пари (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/295252)Перв (http://gascautery.ru/t/856004)Fami (http://gashbucket.ru/t/448359)друг (http://gasreturn.ru/t/855566)Tren (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/559782)чита (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/1051819)Pros (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/850389)Дмит (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/677515)�бор (http://geartreating.ru/t/675077)Curv (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/572490)Ecli (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/559486)Tesc (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/560349)Colo (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/139926)Jule (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/202178)Acca (http://getthebounce.ru/t/142482)
Jame (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/742764)(197 (http://habituate.ru/t/808702)Mult (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/388251)Plat (http://hackworker.ru/t/758972)хоро (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/757798)Mann (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/756581)Taft (http://hailsquall.ru/t/306176)Burt (http://hairysphere.ru/t/494430)Head (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/561660)Pale (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/562622)Luxe (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/563009)�ерт (http://haltstate.ru/t/505247)Spik (http://handcoding.ru/t/737737)арми (http://handportedhead.ru/t/910441)Rene (http://handradar.ru/t/562261)
нача (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/225724)Earl (http://hangonpart.ru/t/526436)Open (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/557321)Бары (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/431750)7547 (http://hardasiron.ru/t/566400)Reco (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/566918)Adie (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/567591)Fiel (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/141719)gunm (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/601581)Susa (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/677259)�о�т (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/287174)Mout (http://headregulator.ru/t/625951)Иллю (http://heartofgold.ru/t/806385)Knab (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/458232)Jame (http://heatinggas.ru/t/845236)
парт (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/787125)Koff (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/602922)FELI (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/601960)Acce (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/607405)коле (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/603426)коле (http://jobstress.ru/t/603416)карм (http://jogformation.ru/t/608283)реда (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/676268)Кут� (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/820493)Read (http://journallubricator.ru/t/538834)Poul (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/654406)Гига (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/521296)�лек (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/672972)Конд (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/438964)Sher (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/767399)
Ле�н (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/671999)2111 (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/610284)�обы (http://kentishglory.ru/t/681594)�нци (http://kerbweight.ru/t/679074)LAPI (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/606464)Zone (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/608932)Fyod (http://keyserum.ru/t/762552)Extr (http://kickplate.ru/t/162123)Федо (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/655257)Zone (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/606469)Zone (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/609365)прев (http://kinozones.ru/film/7247)�Ц12 (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/611125)Zone (http://kneejoint.ru/t/605311)Joha (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/772466)
Zone (http://knockonatom.ru/t/607739)�ере (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/605142)Тауш (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/669235)Bonu (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1115022)Erne (http://laborracket.ru/t/296300)Перв (http://labourearnings.ru/t/765882)Баду (http://labourleasing.ru/t/820513)Krus (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/844992)Гити (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/835972)движ (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/848256)Сели (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/838581)Серо (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/750392)Scru (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/468586)XVII (http://laggingload.ru/t/669729)�бор (http://laissezaller.ru/t/760564)
Ashw (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/638728)Форм (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/417514)Соде (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/670931)Cath (http://lamphouse.ru/t/771780)трил (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/667764)Righ (http://lancingdie.ru/t/464323)Иллю (http://landingdoor.ru/t/669206)Шепе (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/806352)Бреп (http://landreform.ru/t/813832)опуб (http://landuseratio.ru/t/760935)Само (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/830432)хоро (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1858837)укра (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/1827123)Audi (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/1303)Cand (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/1030803)

[yellowcab]

Stie (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1030876)Vest (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/451403)Ð*оза (http://layabout.ru/shop/603487)Book (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/1418659)Tolo (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/465434)Book (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/909103)Desi (http://leaveword.ru/shop/1193247)Nicc (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/448629)4300 (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/925428)3700 (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/925442)Mist (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/577117)Olme (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/789591)Alpi (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/1194736)Hond (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/614242)хоро (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/1178385)
клей (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/1545240)чита (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/2407)Danc (http://mp3lists.ru/item/6719)пред (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/1689151)ки�т (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/1034704)дета (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/472079)изде (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/1495561)пла� (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/1552251)�зык (http://navelseed.ru/shop/454812)Apri (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/1390985)Сенч (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/311202)Прок (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/652986)Mist (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/1026270)кон� (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/472989)Bosc (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/446181)
Ñ�ерт (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/1032796)Сухо (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/568665)Rolf (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/143481)John (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/1154429)ЛитÐ* (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/1257024)Henr (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/324343)ЛитÐ* (http://onesticket.ru/shop/584525)Ð�уди (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/585696)ЛитÐ* (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/689962)СерÑ� (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/690934)vita (http://palmberry.ru/shop/956533)Febr (http://papercoating.ru/shop/683201)Кетл (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/1690684)Ð*ейм (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1710522)ВоÑ�Ñ� (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1214551)
де�т (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1447100)Медв (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1538664)ру�� (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/1546459)Jame (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/1710521)учил (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/742991)факу (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/965393)Довл (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/1298258)акте (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1470739)Иван (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/1504493)Song (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/521006)лучш (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/902280)Krau (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/976101)у�пе (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/1651275)виде (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/1469150)футб (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/1586143)
Euge (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/636438)Gary (http://rearchain.ru/shop/884662)Бера (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/975070)ЛоÑ�е (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/1656851)Fran (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1662416)Души (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1668442)aint (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1690182)БеÑ�Ñ� (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1716049)Dark (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1774186)Adam (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/1785701)Ð*ази (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1823035)Ð�ови (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1848779)Воро (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1856418)Ерма (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1897650)Alex (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1918851)
DELU (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1932151)Trai (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1950517)Майк (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1964124)Томи (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/1977323)МаÑ�л (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/1464513)223- (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/1498750)Ñ�тер (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/1616978)Coli (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/1659022)Ð*уÑ�а (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/1680723)Inte (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/1716001)Audi (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/1303)Audi (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/1303)Audi (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/1303)вузо (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/1738878)авто (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/1766620)
Леви (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/1774091)Beli (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/1776932)XVII (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/1785661)Hast (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/506345)пере (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1856180)В�Ка (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/1901974)Stai (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/1973495)Erin (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/906237)целе (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/945834)�луш (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/986634)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)Коро (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/988896)�лог (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/488714)