View Full Version : Did you ever stop to consider....?
Sarge47
02-11-2009, 11:42 PM
I've been thinking a lot on something; & here it is. I haven't, as yet, managed to figure out how many different groups that we have on here.
1st, there are the "Survivors" who, like me, believe that true survival is being as prepared & as careful as you can be without giving up the enjoyment of the outdoors.
Then there are the primitives who enjoy making stuff the way our ancestors did.
Next we have the Homesteaders who are living "off the grid".
Finally we have those that are preparing for either TSHTF or TEOTWAWKI.
So I guess that makes four. If I missed anyone that doesn't fit those 4 categories then I apologize in advance. Here's my problem with the last group.
1st let me say up front that I don't find anything wrong with being prepared as much as you can possibly be, however I think that in some cases there are those who are operating in "fantasy" & even pose a deadly threat to the rest of us. My next post that follows this one will explain what I mean.:cool:
Sarge47
02-12-2009, 12:03 AM
The way I see it, many of the survivalists haven't thought the thing through; for example, if we look at this from the perspective of the world ending as we know it, and that includes a breakdown in both the military & law enforcement, then what are we left with? Let's consider this:
1.) What will you eat when all the groceries in all of the stores are gone? Wildlife? What happens when all the edible animals are gone? Wild edible plants? many of these are seasonal, & have to be harvested carefully to avoid causing them to become extinct. The failure of our earlier ancestors to take this into consideration is the reason we don't have many of the same edible plants that they had back then. Also, to quote Remy: "The wilderness is NOT a super-market." You planning on eating nothing but dandelion greens for the rest of your life?
2.) What about proper medical care? The reason that today we have a longer life expectancy is the strides medical science has made over the last twenty years. 100 years ago it was about half of what we have today. What about needed drugs like Penicilin, Insulin, Heart meds, etc.? Where will we find a pharmacy that has anything left? Who will be even be manufacturing it?
3.) What about the mass communication that we all take for granted today? Even the members who are "off the grid" like Hopeak & Wild Woman apparently have internet access. In a true scenario your computer and TV might as well be turned into boat anchors & your Blackberry a paper-weight! Newspapers and even snail-mail back in the "good old days" took weeks to deliver.
4.) Transportation. Internal combustion engines will either be scrapped or modified "Mad Max" style as fuel stores dry up. Mass Transit will cease to exist.
5.) I saved the worst for last; what about each other? How will we behave?
My wife told me that on one of her survival forums one guy mentioned that the only thing he & his family were stocking up on were guns & Ammo...everything else would be their's for the taking! How would you deal with that? These are just a few of the things to consider. Remember, our ancestors gave us the lifestyle we have today because they thought that theirs sucked and needed improving on. What do you say? Any additions to my lists, comments, or answers?:confused:
dolfan87
02-12-2009, 12:34 AM
I believe that at some point the S is going to H the F. If that happens in my life time or not...I dunno.
However I am preparing over about three of your categories. I enjoy doing things primitive, I am also prepared when it comes to enjoying the outdoors, but I am also doing my best to think how I would survive if TS did HTF.
If I am understanding the motive behind the post, you are basically questioning the sanity of the "whomever has the most guns at the end wins" crowd. If that is the case, then I agree it is not a solid survival plan.
But are you calling out those who believe that the S could in fact HTF? If that is the case, then I would be in your cross hairs on this post.
doug1980
02-12-2009, 01:07 AM
Not to make waves here but... why is so much emphasis put on the reason why people are here. Who cares really. Why is it that every day a post like this comes up. Seems that some people here want only those who share their "idea" of "survival" to be on this forum. It's really starting to get old. This is the only forum that I belong to, and I belong to many, that worries so much about what the members think and feel. You don't like newbies asking the same questions all the time, you are so picky about scenarios, you run off more people then I can even imagine. Seems like a bunch of judgmental a$$holes on here who think they are better than others. I do like many people here and am not pointing at anyone idividually, and if my post offends anyone or gets me kicked off here....well I can live with that.
Machinegunmomma
02-12-2009, 01:17 AM
It's kind of savage mentality to think the only way to get your's is to take it by gun point. Looking back on the past these were the crooks way of life, they didn't work for their food, money or plow their own fields, they just took what they wanted by force. Today no different - Outlaws!
klkak
02-12-2009, 01:49 AM
Some people dream of building castles in the sky to live in.
Some people build castles in the sky but don't live in them.
Some people live in castles in the sky.
Pal334
02-12-2009, 05:33 AM
Not to make waves here but... why is so much emphasis put on the reason why people are here. Who cares really. Why is it that every day a post like this comes up. Seems that some people here want only those who share their "idea" of "survival" to be on this forum. It's really starting to get old. This is the only forum that I belong to, and I belong to many, that worries so much about what the members think and feel. You don't like newbies asking the same questions all the time, you are so picky about scenarios, you run off more people then I can even imagine. Seems like a bunch of judgmental a$$holes on here who think they are better than others. I do like many people here and am not pointing at anyone idividually, and if my post offends anyone or gets me kicked off here....well I can live with that.
I think you may have something. I personally do not have a "dog in this fight". I enjoy gleaning information from our wide variety of people on this forum and contributing what I can. I personally do not try to categorize people and in fact studiously avoid it since it just restricts personal interaction. This is the beauty of a democracy,, we don't have to agree on everything.
doren
02-12-2009, 08:37 AM
The first problem will run it's course with grocery stores not a wilderness. 70% of the population doesn't realize the dandelion leaves they try to kill off so hard is edible.
The lack of Medical care, is natural selection running it's course. Many of us are natural healers, we can pick up the slack.
We got by 20K+ years of civilization without modern communication. We can do it again until the dust settles. Those methods could redevelop themselves as soon as 20 years, as long as 15-20% of books survive.
Transportation is also not an issue once the dust settles. Mass transit will not be necessary since mass groups of people will not be commuting to their local jobs/hang outs. We will still have burden animals, since most are not truly domesticated they will find their nitch in the wild again. We will have to take the time to domesticate them again.
The last one is the hard one. I have no intentions of picking fights or being involved with someone who just wants to loot. I will let them take whatever and let them move on to someone else who is willing to defend their supplies. In turn natural selection will run it's course. They will meet some one better and discover how stupid they were with their last breath.
Jeepers, Doug. Am I a judgmental a$$hole, too? (sniff. wipes tear).
First, your here. I don't really care why. I don't care what you stock or don't stock up on either. It's all about definition and luck, isn't it? What's your definition of SHTF? Lose your job or home or both? Economic collapse? Volcano? Zombies? It's all about what you think will happen. As for the luck part, IF you plan for the right emergency and IF it happens then you are sitting in a decent spot. Change the planning or change the emergency and you might not be any better off than someone who did no planning at all. Oh, I see an example is in order. You've studiously amassed a years supply of food and ammo. You live off grid and you have things pretty well under control. Then a wild fire burns down your cabin and your stash and you're left with nothing. See? It's all about luck. What's that you say? You buried your stash? Right before the flood washed it away? Okay, good.
Come post, enjoy, learn something, share something and do whatever you want in your spare time.
Fletcher
02-12-2009, 09:38 AM
wait i fit in two of those 1&2. If anyone wants to take my stuff
well we can probably use the ammo and weapons. So thank you very much in advance!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sourdough
02-12-2009, 10:56 AM
I have a "Side Bar" question......for Doug and others active duty military. (By the way: "Thank you, for protecting me, and my Country").
The question is: I would think that the safest, of the safe places to be on the entire planet, would be inside a United States Military Base on American soil. The base would have more food, water, Bomb shelter, security, firepower, etc. than the "Spud" survival compound.
A.) Is this wrong thinking.....?????
Part Two of question is why would active duty military people ask questions about clothing for hunting...? Or about their personal survival gear....??? Or what survival gear to have in there off road Jeep.
I have thought of the Military as the leaders, the teachers, the leading edge of survival skills and technology.
I would expect Military people to have answers not questions. And that they would have access to real survival experts, real survival professionals, not silly sour'doughs.
B.) Is this wrong thinking.....?????
dolfan87
02-12-2009, 11:12 AM
I have a "Side Bar" question......for Doug and others active duty military. (By the way: "Thank you, for protecting me, and my Country").
The question is: I would think that the safest, of the safe places to be on the entire planet, would be inside a United States Military Base on American soil. The base would have more food, water, Bomb shelter, security, firepower, etc. than the "Spud" survival compound.
A.) Is this wrong thinking.....?????
Part Two of question is why would active duty military people ask questions about clothing for hunting...? Or about their personal survival gear....??? Or what survival gear to have in there off road Jeep.
I have thought of the Military as the leaders, the teachers, the leading edge of survival skills and technology.
I would expect Military people to have answers not questions. And that they would have access to real survival experts, real survival professionals, not silly sour'doughs.
B.) Is this wrong thinking.....?????
I am not in the military, and never have been. So this is sort of adding to your question.
Several people have told me that doctors only get a very small bit of training in nutrition...which, if true, is depressing and sad on so many levels.
Is the military kind of the same way with survival? Do they train on guns, and fighting techniques, ect ect, but get like a weekend course on actual survival?
Pal334
02-12-2009, 11:28 AM
I have a "Side Bar" question......for Doug and others active duty military. (By the way: "Thank you, for protecting me, and my Country").
The question is: I would think that the safest, of the safe places to be on the entire planet, would be inside a United States Military Base on American soil. The base would have more food, water, Bomb shelter, security, firepower, etc. than the "Spud" survival compound.
A.) Is this wrong thinking.....?????
Part Two of question is why would active duty military people ask questions about clothing for hunting...? Or about their personal survival gear....??? Or what survival gear to have in there off road Jeep.
I have thought of the Military as the leaders, the teachers, the leading edge of survival skills and technology.
I would expect Military people to have answers not questions. And that they would have access to real survival experts, real survival professionals, not silly sour'doughs.
B.) Is this wrong thinking.....?????
As a retiree, maybe I can put forth some reasons. In many career fields in the military, you get what is sometimes called "just in time" training. If your particular career field would not typically need "outdoor skills" (maybe supply is an example) then you would recieve minimal to no "survival" type training, and your equipment would be a "pared down" version of what maybe a Search and Rescue (PJ) type would get. Now if your duty changed to the point that you would be going out with the guys, then you would get "just in time" training and equipment. I guess it is a matter of economics, spending time and money where it is not considered "needed". As to the base having more "stuff", bomb shelters, food, etc, I guess you would be correct if there is a total break down. But with beuacracy (sp) being what it is, My experience is that it would not be readily available. So you may well see current and recent military with these type questions since they had not been or are not being exposed to training in these areas. However , I do maintain, that within their careers fields, there are none better in the world at what they do than our US Military11 (end of my recruiting commercial)
Sarge47
02-12-2009, 11:42 AM
I wasn't trying to offend anybody, just thinking out loud. I personally believe that the "fan" has already been hit; just that most people don't know it yet.
Given my "total breakdown" sceneario my personal thoughts are that most people would band together & form communities since most of us all have a strong "tribal instinct". This would help fend-off the lawless element that might come around. Years down the road our society would then have been slowly restructured back into what it is today as we don't know anything else.
New web-sites would appear discussing the very things that we are now. Remembe that line from that song by "The Who"? "Here's to the new boss...same as the old boss." just my "duos Centavos".
Alpine_Sapper
02-12-2009, 12:16 PM
The last one is the hard one. I have no intentions of picking fights or being involved with someone who just wants to loot. I will let them take whatever and let them move on to someone else who is willing to defend their supplies. In turn natural selection will run it's course. They will meet some one better and discover how stupid they were with their last breath.
From the sounds of it, by the time they move on, you'll have starved to death. Not that I'm one of those planning on looting if tshtf, or even that I'm preparing for it. It's just that, well, if I'm hungry and trying to feed my family, and the world has collapsed, and you passively let me take your stuff and move on to the next guy, sorry, I'm gonna shoot you in the head, take your spot, and then defend it against the next guy that comes along. Survival of the fittest, and if you ain't gonna defend what you got, you ain't fit to have it.
Alpine_Sapper
02-12-2009, 12:20 PM
I wasn't trying to offend anybody, just thinking out loud. I personally believe that the "fan" has already been hit; just that most people don't know it yet.
Given my "total breakdown" sceneario my personal thoughts are that most people would band together & form communities since most of us all have a strong "tribal instinct". This would help fend-off the lawless element that might come around. Years down the road our society would then have been slowly restructured back into what it is today as we don't know anything else.
New web-sites would appear discussing the very things that we are now. Remembe that line from that song by "The Who"? "Here's to the new boss...same as the old boss." just my "duos Centavos".
Personally, I think that's a bunch of wishful thinking. Who's going to maintain the routers and switches to power the web sites? That's totally contradictory to your original statement.
Sarge47
02-12-2009, 12:26 PM
Personally, I think that's a bunch of wishful thinking. Who's going to maintain the routers and switches to power the web sites? That's totally contradictory to your original statement.
Maybe I wasn't clear...I'm talking about MANY years later...hundreds of years. By then all of the tehnology would be back in place. You need to see the whole picture, not just a corner of it.:cool:
DOGMAN
02-12-2009, 01:01 PM
I've been thinking a lot on something; & here it is. I haven't, as yet, managed to figure out how many different groups that we have on here.
1st, there are the "Survivors" who, like me, believe that true survival is being as prepared & as careful as you can be without giving up the enjoyment of the outdoors.
Then there are the primitives who enjoy making stuff the way our ancestors did.
Next we have the Homesteaders who are living "off the grid".
Finally we have those that are preparing for either TSHTF or TEOTWAWKI.
So I guess that makes four. If I missed anyone that doesn't fit those 4 categories then I apologize in advance. Here's my problem with the last group.
1st let me say up front that I don't find anything wrong with being prepared as much as you can possibly be, however I think that in some cases there are those who are operating in "fantasy" & even pose a deadly threat to the rest of us. My next post that follows this one will explain what I mean.:cool:
I don't care about why others come here...I just know why I come here, and that is because,
I guess I am bit of all of the catagories...
To me the whole thing here is about being SELF-RELIANT, and all the categories you've listed better help me to be that.
First, I am an outdoor enthusiast I love to work and play outside in remote places. So, Wilderness Survival techniques help me to be SELF-RELIANT in situations that can develop in wilderness environments. This site has many discussions that help me learn new, or better ways to prepare myself for the unplanned situation
Second, although I am not a full-on buckskin clad period re-enactor. I do enjoy trying to master some specific "primitive" skills such as fire-starting and shelter building. I figure those type of "primitive" skills are essential for me to be truly SELF-RELIANT. Because they can aid me while enjoying the outdoors, because what happens when I run out of matches, or get in trouble and have to spend a unplanned night out in the woods- these primitive skills add to me being SELF-RELIANT...again discussion here have helped me better understand some of these techniques.
Third, I live pretty far out in the mountains, few neighbors, and have lots of animals. Although I do have electricity, I still am living a "Homesteading" life style. I grow a fair amount of produce and eat a lot of wild game and fish, and pretty much have to be SELF-RELIANT because I don't have the money to have people come out and fix things for me, or help me do stuff. Again...
discussions here help me out around the homestead.
Lastly, I listen to the news and occasionaly read the papers. So, although I am not a paranoid guns and ammo stocking survivalist. I do have my share of weapons and provisions put away- we are living in tough times, and it could get worse, so its just best to be prepared. Not just for the true end of the world...but because if theres a snow storm my family is more than prepared to sit it out. Again to me its all about being SELF-RELIANT.
Finally...all this stuff gives me a sense of security, freedom and independence. Thats what being SELF-RELIANT is all about, and thats what this site is all about.
doug1980
02-12-2009, 01:13 PM
I have a "Side Bar" question......for Doug and others active duty military. (By the way: "Thank you, for protecting me, and my Country").
The question is: I would think that the safest, of the safe places to be on the entire planet, would be inside a United States Military Base on American soil. The base would have more food, water, Bomb shelter, security, firepower, etc. than the "Spud" survival compound.
A.) Is this wrong thinking.....?????
Part Two of question is why would active duty military people ask questions about clothing for hunting...? Or about their personal survival gear....??? Or what survival gear to have in there off road Jeep.
I have thought of the Military as the leaders, the teachers, the leading edge of survival skills and technology.
I would expect Military people to have answers not questions. And that they would have access to real survival experts, real survival professionals, not silly sour'doughs.
B.) Is this wrong thinking.....?????
Honestly I don't feel safer on a Military Base at all. I'm at the mercy of what the "Higher Command" think is the best course of action. I would rather be back home if some situations happened. Part two of your question. I realize that the questions I have asked you may feel are petty and stupid. Even if you are being subtlein stating it. I was Active Duty Army from 1998-2001 (Airborne Infantry) lots of good training there. Got out and joined the Air National Guard in 2003 and have been in it for 6 years. I have not had any "Survival" training since the Army. Do I really need anyones advise as to what gear to have, no not really. Do I not have enough common sense to figure out most of this on my own, I believe I do. But I thought this was a site to share, ask and provide others with alternate ways to accomplish tasks and to share a diverse view on "survival" But maybe that's not what this site is. Maybe this site is for those who feel they know all and do not wish to share knowledge but only to judge and criticize others for asking. I mean I hear it all the time that Alaska is a different place and considering that I had never been here I thought I would ask what specifically I would need in this enviornment. My oppologies for asking I guess since I'm in the Military they should have taught me all there is to know on this subject. Expecially on hunting gear, because as you all know us Military are trained hunters that's part of Basic Training.:rolleyes: But fear not everyone I will never ask a "stupid" question.
rockymtnchief
02-12-2009, 01:30 PM
But fear not everyone I will never ask a "stupid" question.
To some, it may be a stupid question. To others, it may not. I'd ask anyway. Who cares what anyone else thinks? You'll never meet 99% of the people on here. And if someone blasts you, go on to the next post that advises you.
rockymtnchief
02-12-2009, 01:36 PM
Doug, I like you and I like Sgt. Draino. But I just feel like you guys set people up. And then you get your feathers ruffled. I truly just do not understand.......When I was a small time pool hall hustler we called it "Sand bagging".
Aaaah...I see the point you're making and completely understand. For me, it's hard to gauge a persons intent by a question posted on the internet. I do better with sound, sight, and body language. I'll answer any question thrown my way on the net because I honestly think it's sincere.
doug1980
02-12-2009, 01:43 PM
Well I didn't realize I asked a question. I stated something that I notice here. I know I'm not the only one who sees it. No one has done anything to me directly so I have no hard feelings toward anyone. My feathers were not ruffeled because someone didn't answer my question the way I wanted. You asked the question I just answered. So if that makes me a con artist then ok. I have never lied here no need to. Not sure what or how I coned anyone but if you say so.
crashdive123
02-12-2009, 05:01 PM
I have a "Side Bar" question......for Doug and others active duty military. (By the way: "Thank you, for protecting me, and my Country").
The question is: I would think that the safest, of the safe places to be on the entire planet, would be inside a United States Military Base on American soil. The base would have more food, water, Bomb shelter, security, firepower, etc. than the "Spud" survival compound.
A.) Is this wrong thinking.....?????
Part Two of question is why would active duty military people ask questions about clothing for hunting...? Or about their personal survival gear....??? Or what survival gear to have in there off road Jeep.
I have thought of the Military as the leaders, the teachers, the leading edge of survival skills and technology.
I would expect Military people to have answers not questions. And that they would have access to real survival experts, real survival professionals, not silly sour'doughs.
B.) Is this wrong thinking.....?????
Hope - to try and answer your question from a bit different view. Often times I think that people lump "military training" into one category. This paints an inaccurate picture IMO. Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines receive a lot of training. Some general, but more specific that is geared toward their specialty or mission. An example would be for me, being an Electronics Technician in the Submarine Service my training was geared toward the equipment that I worked on. We all (Submarine Electronics Techs) went through similar basic electronics training, but then recieved intense training on the specific equipment we were responsible for. My first NEC (job specialty) was working on the Navigation Data Assimilation Computer. That school was about a year long, where we traced electrons through every circuit of every inch of the machine. I recieved training to operate the other equipment, but could not repair it. As my equipment specialties changed, so did my training.
My "survival" training focused on the most probable things that would kill us all. Fire fighting, flooding, missile casualty, hydraulic ruptures, high pressure air leaks, torpedo casualties, submarine escape. We didn't do fire starting, shelter building or things that were not likely to be needed. When I worked Special Projects - my training changed. I can't speak for the other branches of the service, but I'd hazard a guess that there was more training for stuff than doing stuff.
As far as question #1 - depends on the threat. Every base that I was stationed on had the potential to store and house nuclear weapons (not saying they did, but they were capable). In some SHTF scenarios we were target #1.
High pressure air leaks? I've had those a time or two. I usually blame them on the dog.:rolleyes:
vthompson
02-12-2009, 06:31 PM
I have been born and raised in the country all of my life, and I consider myself pretty self reliant. After all that has been said, I have to agree with what Jason Montana said. He and I have the same beliefs.
Sourdough
02-12-2009, 09:01 PM
Well I didn't realize I asked a question. I stated something that I notice here. I know I'm not the only one who sees it. No one has done anything to me directly so I have no hard feelings toward anyone. My feathers were not ruffeled because someone didn't answer my question the way I wanted. You asked the question I just answered. So if that makes me a con artist then ok. I have never lied here no need to. Not sure what or how I coned anyone but if you say so.
Doug, I can see that, it is time for me to spend a lot less time on this forum, and more time on the other forum that you turned me onto. I do hope we can get together for coffee, some day.....:):):)
It is time to get the dozer fired up and start dragging logs befor the snow gets gone.
crashdive123
02-12-2009, 09:13 PM
There's that dadburn rumor about other forums again.
welderguy
02-12-2009, 09:31 PM
There's that dadburn rumor about other forums again.
Other forums, you mean theres other forums out there. why havent I heard of this before.
doug1980
02-12-2009, 09:45 PM
Doug, I can see that, it is time for me to spend a lot less time on this forum, and more time on the other forum that you turned me onto. I do hope we can get together for coffee, some day.....:):):)
It is time to get the dozer fired up and start dragging logs befor the snow gets gone.
Coffee sounds good I need to thawl out. :D That's a good forum lots of info I use it often.
Stay warm on the dozer.
doren
02-13-2009, 12:44 PM
From the sounds of it, by the time they move on, you'll have starved to death. Not that I'm one of those planning on looting if tshtf, or even that I'm preparing for it. It's just that, well, if I'm hungry and trying to feed my family, and the world has collapsed, and you passively let me take your stuff and move on to the next guy, sorry, I'm gonna shoot you in the head, take your spot, and then defend it against the next guy that comes along. Survival of the fittest, and if you ain't gonna defend what you got, you ain't fit to have it.
Do not mistake not wanting to fight with incapable to fight. I am more than capable of defending myself, But I am currently ill prepared to deal with a "NRA Poster Child". That will be changing in the near future.
I am also confident in my food procurement abilities. So if Rambo wants my food stash, fine. Leave the area, keep him in sight, follow him to his location, reclaim by any means necessary. If I find retaking to be too difficult, there are still small animals and plenty of edible plants.
I'm not worried about dying. If one of their kind gets the drop on me and kills me so be it. I didn't need to live anyway. I obey one law, Natural Selection.
I'll probably be all afternoon getting that picture out of my head. Sheeeeesh!
EspenN
02-13-2009, 02:29 PM
Ehm .. survival of the strongest or survival of the fittest? If the world ended it'd change, whatever you learn now wouldn't be as useful then as it is now. If you're able to learn quickly and change to adapt to the new world, you would survive. And then there would of course be the outlaws that lived taking whatever they wanted using simple force :) that's the way it'll always be.
SARKY
02-13-2009, 06:55 PM
Survival is all about adaptation. Taking what skills and kit you have and making it work with the situation you are in. That is why most of us are here, to learn as much as we can, get other perspectives, other ways of doing things in order to broaden our adaptability.
Philosophy by FVR:
Grasshoppers, you need balance.
1. The man with only guns and ammo, will die. He can only take so much from others and a sniper or lucky shot will end his rein.
2. You need to know how to boil your water, some not all the plants that can be easily obtained to hold you through the hard times.
3. You need a stockpile or food. Maybe not a supermarket, but a stock that can be used in a pinch if needed.
4. You need to enjoy what you are doing. If it's not fun, don't do it because you will not get out of it what you will need.
5. You need bound refrences to fall back on.
6. You will need to know some primitive skills. The end.
7. Last, you need patience. You will need this to learn what you need to learn and also in hardtimes you will need it with others to survive.
Oh yeh, you also need to know that if the sheot really hits the fan, using your guns instead of you brain will get you dead.
Those are pretty good words, Frank. On the bound information, remember that paper today is acidic and will destroy itself over time. Check you printed stuff periodically to ensure it is still in good shape so you have it if you need it.
laughingbeetle
02-13-2009, 11:20 PM
FVR, you have got it right.
Ralbert
02-14-2009, 12:47 AM
Interesting topic.
My mentality is definitely a combination between category 1 & 2.
I like the idea of being self-reliant when I absolutely have too.
To me, some skills are interesting to learn, some are not. Bushcraft just happens to be one of the former.
I do draw a line somewhere though. In fact, line isn't even the right word to describe it as it's more of a massive boundary kind of mindset:
I expect the world to progress. I do not, ever, expect society to collapse nor do I anticipate having to use bushcraft skills to save my life other than on a camping trip gone horribly wrong.
I guess this type of mindset is the fundamental difference between those TEOTWAWKI folks.
To them I'm probably an optimist, blind or unwilling to accept possible danger. On the other hand, to me they are nothing short of being completely and utterly paranoid.
Then again, as a European it's impossible to make sense of some USA rituals. Gun control for one.
I'm absolutely, and I'm not joking here, BAFFLED when I see people are stocking up ammunition and guns as a form of preparation.
As an outsider/European it makes absolutely no sense at all. In fact, it's scary as hell.
Preparation of what? You really expect to have to shoot people in the head in order to survive or something? I just don't get it.
I guess it's possible... in the same way it would be smart to wear a lightning conduction suit in case you get struck by lightning.
My mindset ignores this type of fear, not only because the chance of it actually happening is very small but also because allowing the fear in is not very productive.
My explanation is that it's a form of mental soothing. Knowing(/thinking) that you are prepared. I guess that's fine as long as you don't go overboard.
It's kinda like when the Hummer sales went up after 9/11. Yeah I'm sure no one actually thought that driving a Hummer would protect you against flying kamikaze terrorists but I guess 'being king of the road' did gave them a small boost of feeling more secure nonetheless.
In the end it all boils down to "Whatever helps you sleep at night"
I ignore the highly improbably, some prepare for it.
My humble opinion.
- Ralbert
Sarge47
02-14-2009, 01:25 AM
FVR...Right On!
Ralbert: America is completely different than many other countries, except maybe Australia. It was born out of violence with our war on the British; who, by the way, emptied out their prisons of criminals & undesirables & sent them over here in the 1st place. After we beat them we turned on each other with a Civil War. After that we either entered small wars or large ones & now have street gangs roaming the streets of large metropolitan cities like L.A., New York, & Chicago, armed to the teeth with Glocks, Berettas, & AK 47s just to name a few. If something really bad did go down then it's going to get rough for awhile until the bad element gets weeded out.
However, I'm more like you when it comes to thinking about all that. If it happens I'll try to survive as best I can. I hope I'd never have to shoot anybody, but I'd protect my family anyway I could. My point here was, though, that most people who think about such things probably haven't really considered the real picture. It's NOT going to be a picnic or a walk in the park!:cool:
It's kind of savage mentality to think the only way to get your's is to take it by gun point. Looking back on the past these were the crooks way of life, they didn't work for their food, money or plow their own fields, they just took what they wanted by force. Today no different - Outlaws!
Some people have problems with any kind of authority and actually wish for TSHTF. Those stocking only guns and ammo may fit in that category. I believe this is shortsighted as any society - even a post apocalyptic society -cannot long put up with disorder.
Even more shortsighted, to my way of thinking, are those pacifists who believe that rather than storing up weapons of any sort - they'll just store more food and share their food. I don't think anyone is capable of storing enough food to match the need under certain conditions.
As to the categories: I'd probably be a #1, with some interest in #2.
canid
02-14-2009, 09:08 AM
i don't have modern medical care now.
as for blackberries being reduced to paperweights, have you seen how much paper/cardboard your average weekend warrior uses in lighting the camp-fire? do you think after 6 months without gas/electric heat there will be a scrap of paper left in the north american continent?
:D
doren
02-14-2009, 09:19 AM
Their lighters would go before the paper would.
A European talking about paronoid American gun owners.
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When was the last time someone had to save our arses?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/FrankV/150888.jpg
Ralbert - First, let me say I respect your opinion. You are more than welcome to feel any way you want.
I don't know how old you are but May 10, 1940 should be a memorable day for anyone living in the Netherlands. Despite their desire to remain neutral, the Netherlands was invaded by Germany on that date. There are precedents that we need to remember. It's been a long time since the US was invaded. Perhaps our robust relationship with firearms has something to do with that.
Our inane desire to coddle criminals is another good reason to maintain a robust relationships with firearms. Sometimes our internal conflicts are worse than our external ones. In any case, I can only protect a small geographic area and I prefer to do that, if I have to, with as much authority as I can muster.
wareagle69
02-14-2009, 03:50 PM
A European talking about paronoid American gun owners.
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When was the last time someone had to save our arses?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/FrankV/150888.jpg
well there was this one time back at benning at the hidden door that a couple of us rangers had to bail out a few leathernecks before it went to far glad to do it as we was in school together but.......you asked
GuyInSD
02-14-2009, 04:39 PM
Don't tread on me !
Sums it up pretty well.
Ralbert
02-14-2009, 05:55 PM
Alright, as far as I know, general talk about politics (and religion) isn't allowed and its not hard to see why.
So before someone else opens up a can of American patriotism let me just clarify that my post (as stated) isn't about gun control in general but regarding a specific condition, i.e.: stocking up ammunition and guns as a form of preparation/survival. Lets stay on topic please.
Now to clarify further, when I'm talking about preparation I'm thinking about the current economy crisis. If for some reason you have another scenario in mind like the Russians invading or something involving nukes please let me know because then we're clearly not even on the same subject.
Please respond to the next paragraph:
Obviously the term "TEOTWAWKI" doesn't exactly have the same meaning for everyone, hence my original question:
Preparation of what?
If you're buying extra ammo and weapons because you think it will help you survive when "TSHTF" I'm really curious what scenario you honestly expect that justifies you buying those extra guns/ammo.
Like the original topic poster said:
however I think that in some cases there are those who are operating in "fantasy" & even pose a deadly threat to the rest of us.
In other words; I'm simply asking some people to explain their reasoning for buying increased numbers of deadly weapons so I can determine who fits into this "fantasy or deadly threat category" and who doesn't.
That will be all.
- Ralbert
So before someone else opens up a can of American patriotism...
That's funny, I don't care who you are.
I harbor no beliefs that the end of the world is around the corner, the Ruskies (or anyone else) is planning to invade or some inevitable economic collapse looms large on the horizon. My post earlier is simply that prudent planning is an intelligent thing. At least in my book. I own quite a few firearms and quite a bit of ammunition. I do carry a firearm on me just about anywhere I go (that's legal).
The thing is, I don't have to justify to anyone why I choose to own anything. At least not since I started supporting myself and that was ..... well .... a while back. Asking me to justify why I choose to own firearms is like asking you to justify why you don't. What's the point? If you don't want to own one (or many) then don't. It's a hobby that I enjoy, it's my money that I'm spending and if I someday need one or more, I have them.
As for the "fantasy or deadly threat", that's all in your beliefs. You are no more correct in calling it a fantasy than they are in calling it an inevitability. It's just in what you believe. I respect both camps and think both of you are welcome to believe whatever you want. Just don't toss stones at them for their beliefs. Some of them might throw back.;)
And yes, Remy, we will be eternally grateful to the French for providing us arms and supplies during our formative years. But we would be a lot happier with them if they would let us fly through their airspace to hammer some folks from time to time what with the price of jet fuel these days.:rolleyes:
Ralbert
02-14-2009, 06:50 PM
Rick, a few posts ago you explained to me why you think gun control in general is normal. Great! That's all I've asked for but instead of just gun control in general it's regarding a specific subject. No need to be defensive all of a sudden when I ask a perfectly normal question.
I'm not commanding you to answer anything... I'm simply asking for people's reasoning and logic.
And the "fantasy or deadly threat" is not my quote, it's Sarge's. I just agree and think it's a good point because some people undoubtely do take things too far.
Since the original poster/Sarge asked what type of person you are, including the TEOTWAWKI category I think it's more than fair to ask what 'TEOTWAWKI scenario' you have in mind.
Given the fact that 'TEOTWAWKI' is a relative/subjective term and without explanation it has little meaning.
Riverrat
02-14-2009, 06:55 PM
Well...I am not American, I am Canadian, and I have several guns and ammunition for all of them, and I am buying a bit more each week. I want to be ready to support my family to the best of my abilities. do I think I will have to shoot someone, I hope not, but if it comes down to them or someone in my family, well sorry for them. I do plan on using my guns to feed my family. I am an avid food hunter, I do not hunt for trophy. I eat what I shoot.
And I just have one comment on what Ralbert has asked above...why would I have to justify to you or anyone else why I want to have guns? If you do not want them, that is your choice.
crashdive123
02-14-2009, 07:03 PM
Ralbert - I have quite a few weapons (not as many as some, but more than others). I also have quite a bit of ammunition. I do not envision an apocolyptic anarchist society about to befall us. I do not envision bands of roving ner-do-wells whose goal is to take my stuff. I do not envision me going out to take anothers things in time of crisis. I have them because: I want them; it is legal; I belive they hold value better than some things. As far as the ammount of ammunition that I have on hand (just bought another 7,875 rounds of .22 this week) is because the price is going up, it has a long shelf life and I shoot quite often. That being said, there are those in this country and the world that would like to take that right away from me and my fellow citizens. I think that this is why people often become defensive when questioned as to why..... I really haven't seen that defensiveness in this thread, but it may happen.
What do you stock up on and why?
Ralbert - You misread my post. I don't think gun control in any fashion is normal. We have more than enough of that here in the states.
And I wasn't being defensive in the least. Sorry if I came across that way. Just trying to answer your question. I simply don't think anyone (you or anyone else) needs to justify the way they believe. And yes, your question is fair. It's what promotes conversation, exposes us to new and different ideas and challenges us to examine our own beliefs. So ask away!
Sarge47
02-14-2009, 07:59 PM
My original point was that there are some people looking forward to an end to the known world & others who will become both predetors & tagets of opportunity. Ralbert, don't come to America, it'd be too much of a culture shock!
Remy, well said, but you guys can have the Statue of Liberty back!:rolleyes:
(Note to self...stay out of "Twinkie-man's" 'Hood.)
Tony uk
02-14-2009, 08:20 PM
My original point was that there are some people looking forward to an end to the known world & others who will become both predetors & tagets of opportunity. Ralbert, don't come to America, it'd be to much of a culture shock!
Remy, wel said, but you guys can have the Statue of Liberty back!:rolleyes:
(Note to self...stay out of "Twinkie-man's" 'Hood.)
http://ninxmz.org/images/demotivators/twinkie%20house.jpg
Just incause you guys are wondering Which hood that is, Here is a scaled replica of his house. His car has not currently been pictured........
That's just my pre-breakfast, breakfast. The two basic food groups.....sweets and preservatives.
Tell me you're not jealous!
http://blogs.westword.com/cafesociety/28169.jpg
Tony uk
02-14-2009, 08:39 PM
That's just my pre-breakfast, breakfast. The two basic food groups.....sweets and preservatives.
LOL, I like to split mine into 3 main food groups
1. Alcoholic
2. Non-Alcoholic
3. Anything else which is nice.
NOTE, I am not an alcoholic, in fact i hate the stuff......
Read up, fellow wilderness survivalists. Some things you just HAVE to know!
http://www.twinkiesproject.com/
crashdive123
02-14-2009, 08:40 PM
Ah Twinkies.
After all, it's the foundation for all that we know today.
Remember Twinkie-Henge?
http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Twinkie-Henge-twinkies-239771_500_300.jpg
Tony uk
02-14-2009, 08:41 PM
That's just my pre-breakfast, breakfast. The two basic food groups.....sweets and preservatives.
Tell me you're not jealous!
http://blogs.westword.com/cafesociety/28169.jpg
That looks awsome Rick !
That, THEN a big steaming bowl of haggis, neeps, and tattes (I think thats right) Would be a hell of a meal
crashdive123
02-14-2009, 08:43 PM
Tony - you got the steaming part right.;)
Tony uk
02-14-2009, 08:44 PM
Tony - you got the steaming part right.;)
Ohhhh Crash, How'd i know it would be you to point that part out ;)
wareagle69
02-14-2009, 08:45 PM
all of you have issues maybe each of you should pm remy and have a talk with the doc
Haggis! Yeck!
http://mistupid.com/pictures/images/dogpuke.jpg
crashdive123
02-14-2009, 08:47 PM
all of you have issues maybe each of you should pm remy and have a talk with the doc
Now that there's the second or third time you've tried to drum up some business for Remy today. Come on, admit it....you miss him.
Tony uk
02-14-2009, 08:47 PM
Haggis! Yeck!
http://mistupid.com/pictures/images/dogpuke.jpg
MUAHAHAHHAHA Rick, The internet is sideing with me and the haggis :D
Tony uk
02-14-2009, 08:48 PM
all of you have issues maybe each of you should pm remy and have a talk with the doc
At 10 to 1 in the morning :eek:
I think he would want me to wait till later :p
Oh, no. That's a great time to call him. Pacific time. 2 or 3, even better. What's the number again, Remy?:D:rolleyes:
Tony uk
02-14-2009, 08:51 PM
Oh, no. That's a great time to call him. Pacific time. 2 or 3, even better. What's the number again, Remy?:D:rolleyes:
This just got interesting :rolleyes: :D
Fletcher
02-14-2009, 09:09 PM
If a person walked up to you pulls a gun and says i'm going to shoot you
in three seconds..............will 911 save you?
Ralbert
02-14-2009, 09:14 PM
Ah makes sense Crash. I've read before that the ammo price was going up which was one of the reasons why I've asked because I thought it was strange.
As for what I'm stocking up: absolutely nothing besides from the usual. The economy crisis hasn't really hit us in The Netherlands the way you guys experience it in the USA. Not by a long shot.
There was a threat of some banks possibly going bankrupt because of consumer fear but that quickly ended once the government secured possible losses up to a certain amount. Oh and it bought one bank aswell lol. :)
don't come to America, it'd be too much of a culture shock!
Actually I've been there. Although I'm not certain to what degree Florida counts as "coming to America". Haha
It was a fun trip, especially the everglades. Amazing place.
I wouldn't say it was a culture shock really. Most European countries I've been in are weirder in some way. Although the quantity of poor (mostly black) neighborhoods was a surprise. Having to pay for fuel before you could fill up the gas tank (and thus knowing the price) for me at least has been a once in a life time experience so far.
Remy,
Yeh, we Americans can be a little hard headed and arrogant. I fully understand why many of the older French just do not like us. Yes, we helped to drive the Nazi regime from France, but after the war we just left ya hanging. American banks flooded money into Germany and left the french to fend for themselves.
WE, now now. My comment was not stating the USMC, but rather America. Now, if'n ya want to talk about battles where the Marines took the hill, gave it to the Army to hold, then had to take it back after they left..........ahhhhhhh..........let's not go there.
Your assisting the Marines was a good thing. For the Marines. Ya see, we have this thing, we find it very hard to retreat. So, we just move forward and die. It's just our thing. That's why we have all those neat little nicknames.
Ralbert.....please define for me the diff. between a weapon and a deadly weapon?LOL...
Now, I'm not a big fan on stockpiling many diff. guns........a few good ones will do just fine. As far as ammo, the price is going up here in the US. There are a variety of bills being pushed that will only allow the use of encoded ammo. This ammo will cost considerably more and it would be like purchasing a gun over the counter, you will be on record for the purchase.
The problem is, those stockpiling both guns and ammo are on record even now. In many northern states, you need to show id and fill out paper work for the purchase of ammo. Where do these numnuts think that paperwork goes.
So if there biggest concern is the government taking complete control, well, I think too many of them have been watching Red Dawn.
wareagle69
02-15-2009, 08:25 AM
well frank those hills that you guys took we let the accounts hold figured if the marines could take it the accounts should be able to hold on to it hey we all make mistakes:D i mean just look at remy's posts:eek:
Canadian-guerilla
02-16-2009, 10:21 AM
Then there are the primitives who enjoy making stuff the way our ancestors did.
one of my top 10 movies is " Quest for Fire "
while it's not much on dialogue, it's about the basics of survival
is there such a thing as a survival minimalist ?
surviving with the least amount of manufactured equipment/gear
i've always been a fan of Tom Brown
and the story(?) that he walked into the Pine Barrens
with only a knife and the clothes on his back
and lived/survived for a year before rejoining civilization
whether true or not, always made me think, do i have the skills for that ?
how simple
can a life be
and still be a good one
less is more
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yellowcab
01-24-2026, 09:44 AM
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yellowcab
01-24-2026, 09:45 AM
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yellowcab
04-28-2026, 10:27 PM
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yellowcab
04-28-2026, 10:28 PM
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